Official Feedback Thread: M12 Armor Pen Changes and PvP

kalina311 · July 2017

Even when I gave players my exact build results were mediocre/mixed cause different playstyles may clash with different build styles ..due to some being more reflexive or tanky or more lag friendly or a player simply being unconformable or not practised with certain powers ..or frankly lacking power points / gear or guild boons even if they had the build info

(on a side note power points were seen for sale in the zen store on preview can someone else confirm )

some builds are better too if you are drunk or have bad laggy internet / ping : D / or bad hand eye co- ordination (your play style)

also some builds may be better at hybridising between pvp and pve and some not and even with multiple specs it might not be feasible to switch/swap enchants purely between pvp /pve spec if you still have boons and dailies to do and are not decked out in 3 rank 12 bondings (to make up for the pvp build being subpar in pve )

trgluestickz · July 2017

kalina311 said:
Even when I gave players my exact build results were mediocre/mixed cause different playstyles may clash with different build styles ..due to some being more reflexive or tanky or more lag friendly or a player simply being unconformable or not practised with certain powers ..or frankly lacking power points / gear or guild boons even if they had the build info

(on a side note power points were seen for sale in the zen store on preview can someone else confirm )

some builds are better too if you are drunk or have bad laggy internet / ping : D / or bad hand eye co- ordination (your play style)

also some builds may be better at hybridising between pvp and pve and some not and even with multiple specs it might not be feasible to switch/swap enchants purely between pvp /pve spec if you still have boons and dailies to do and are not decked out in 3 rank 12 bondings (to make up for the pvp build being subpar in pve )

I agree. A build can be a great build and not work equally well for everyone. As you mentioned, this is because playstyle is also a factor in how well you preform, its not all just raw numbers.
I experianced a good example of this a few modules ago when I tried to assimilate more elements of a standard recovery TR setup with my scoundrel TR build in the hopes of improving it.
Some elements did improve my build but I quickly figured out that large swaths of that build were not the right fit for my hand in spite of being good general advice.

defiantone99 said:
Sharing builds creates innovation. If you think you know everything there is to know about a class, you are wrong. If everybody had a private sheet, and nobody shared builds, there would be no growth. Things would grow quite stale quite fast. I have learned much from testing, but also reading and inspecting. That is the package, and part of what makes NW great.

I agree with 99% of this. There is one bit I do find too absolute about what you say.
Builds would still grow some even if litterally everyone kept them private, they would just grow a lot slower and the average quality of builds would be much lower than it is now.
The player population is low right now and out of those players only tiny percentage of them are build testers, this compounds the problems with more information being kept under wraps even further.
Its sort of like how inbreeding works, for comparison's sake.

armadeonx · July 2017

90% of a build is about feats, powers, active companions & mount bonuses - which are not visible. Why are people worried about gear choice and stat balance? This is a non-issue.

mahburg · July 2017

So having been out of PVP for literally an age I took my GWF in (15k and change) strapped on PVP gear and thought lets see what if anything has changed, so having killed the pally Perma bubble, what did I find?
Teams with Lions spamming them constantly and literally back to back smoke bombs with zero cool down (XBOX).
Given that companions are not allowed, can someone explain the logic of allowing attack powers from mounts where five player teams with them turn into the god squad?

For me I feel that Mounts should be treat like companions and disabled in PVP given the game breaking effects some of them can have when used en masse.

Certainly I wont be trying again until the mod 12 changes go live on XBONE.

schietindebux · July 2017

mahburg said:
So having been out of PVP for literally an age I took my GWF in (15k and change) strapped on PVP gear and thought lets see what if anything has changed, so having killed the pally Perma bubble, what did I find?
Teams with Lions spamming them constantly and literally back to back smoke bombs with zero cool down (XBOX).
Given that companions are not allowed, can someone explain the logic of allowing attack powers from mounts where five player teams with them turn into the god squad?

For me I feel that Mounts should be treat like companions and disabled in PVP given the game breaking effects some of them can have when used en masse.

Certainly I wont be trying again until the mod 12 changes go live on XBONE.

Agree , RIP PVP if there is no real solution concernig gear Boons etc.

Unknown · July 2017

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beckylunatic · July 2017

morenthar said:
I've been doing some thinking about Action Points.

Originally, I was thinking they could put a hard floor on their availability. For instance, let AP build as normal, but no player could ever do more than 1 daily every 30, 45 or however many seconds. Let players balance their gain around that.

I don't know if this solution will work in PvP, but the change that was already made for DCs seems on the whole like a good balance. They undid the AP-lock while durational dailies are in effect (didn't get this done for every class yet though), while putting a cooldown on the daily that can be reduced by recovery and other sources of cooldown reduction. AP can be refilled too, but if your first daily isn't ready to cast yet, you can use your other daily.

At the very least, for TRs it prevents back-to-back CB or SE. But not using both. It would also put a damper on back-to-back WoB, which might make some players cry a bit over their power stacking, but we can see it as a necessary balance change provided TRs get some other needed buffs.

mamalion1234 · July 2017

beckylunatic said:

morenthar said:
I've been doing some thinking about Action Points.

Originally, I was thinking they could put a hard floor on their availability. For instance, let AP build as normal, but no player could ever do more than 1 daily every 30, 45 or however many seconds. Let players balance their gain around that.
I don't know if this solution will work in PvP, but the change that was already made for DCs seems on the whole like a good balance. They undid the AP-lock while durational dailies are in effect (didn't get this done for every class yet though), while putting a cooldown on the daily that can be reduced by recovery and other sources of cooldown reduction. AP can be refilled too, but if your first daily isn't ready to cast yet, you can use your other daily.

At the very least, for TRs it prevents back-to-back CB or SE. But not using both. It would also put a damper on back-to-back WoB, which might make some players cry a bit over their power stacking, but we can see it as a necessary balance change provided TRs get some other needed buffs.

The items like devoted-snail-weapons with ap recharge are the problem for me and nothing else.
What is the problem if a player use the recovery stat and the ability scores to build faster cooldowns and get some ap gain?
I call that a logic build.
What is wrong for me is : When players without wisdom and investments on recovery to benefit from stupid sources like snails sigil of devoted why they should? that is an not a logic build is a HAMSTER.

GO back in mod 2 if you didnt have the stats you couldnt do a daily power so often.

Now we have give everything to everyone thing no builds at all.

Forgot to say about ap gain cloaks ( 4% ap every 3 seconds in combat). who thought that thing also?

Unknown · July 2017

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pandoratanaka · July 2017

defiantone99 said:
Come on now. TR builds are based on dailies, GWF is built on dailies, every class is built on dailies, except HR. HR isn't, because they have bad dailies. I would love to see lowbie GFs tank without Fighter's Recovery and DC dailies. Any changes to dailies should be a PVP-only change.

GWF built on dailies? What game are you playing? In what world?

Unknown · July 2017

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pandoratanaka · July 2017

defiantone99 said:

pandoratanaka said:

defiantone99 said:
Come on now. TR builds are based on dailies, GWF is built on dailies, every class is built on dailies, except HR. HR isn't, because they have bad dailies. I would love to see lowbie GFs tank without Fighter's Recovery and DC dailies. Any changes to dailies should be a PVP-only change.
GWF built on dailies? What game are you playing? In what world?
The Power build is built on spamming Slam, a daily. If you are going to troll, know what you are talking about.

Yeah. Because GWF's use Slam in PVP. Not sure who the troll here is.

Unknown · July 2017

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andre · July 2017

I take it "gwfs using slam for AP" was meant in pve? I don't even play gwf and know it isn't used in pvp lol.

Not sure what the topic is anymore but limiting potions is whatever, but it should be for both pvp and pve.

schietindebux · July 2017

MY build is not focussed on dailies...warlock, maybe that´s why it sucks

?
Savage advanced (SM), Indomitable Strength (IV), that´s what I normally get from a GWF's, Crescendo sometimes. And before they dy it is i Avalanche of Steel

...tse daily, misleading terminus regarding the fact that near all classes tend to spam dailies at some gear.

icyphish · July 2017

None of the PvP GWF builds are based on dailies. And yes there is a pve gwf build that uses Slam to get bonus power to deal more dmg but it isnt the meta, so to say GWF is built on daily is completely wrong.

veiojeff · July 2017

For me the point is...At the beginning of the game(closed beta,open),everybody was having fun,Queue was always full,and the players fought for fun.Just like the real Pvp u seek ina good mmo(like this)really is.
And now?NO players for fight(only the Godz veteran ppl)where its scares any newbie.
I really miss that old times when i fought just for fun.

I believe that the solution would be matches by power level.And events and reward to warm up all rank PvpLvl,and PvP Loverz.Thx

x1wicked3x · July 2017

take the tenacity off make it more about skills it makes it more fun n addicting lol but yeah i agree on taking tenacity off its to much resistance :)

typo · July 2017

vordayn said:

pandoratanaka said:
Dear rgutscheradev,

Ever stopped to think that this change makes Hunter Rangers even more overpowered than they already are?

So now not only they will receive less damage (They count as light armored) but Piercing Blades (The piercing damage) goes through damage resistance, deflect, immunity, everything.

Therefore they will shred every other class like paper while surviving even longer than right now. This is not balance.

Please take a look at it.
The changes are to the Armor Penetration bug and Armor Penetration Resist (from Tenacity).

This would only affect those who:

1) Overstacked armor penetration to do more damage than intended (not sure exactly how this worked)
2) Those who stack defense - typically tanks

HRs who chose the Piercing Blades feat (50% bonus damage as Piercing Damage) did not need to put any stat on Armor Penetration if they used this mechanic, as piercing damage ignores deflect, armor etc as you mentioned. This change to ArP won't make that type of attack any stronger.

However, any class who invests in Armor Penetration now may do more regular damage, as armor penetration won't be resisted by Tenacity. So HRs, presumably, may get a bump in overall damage if they invest in ArP.

Also, it won't make HRs more survivable, it will make all less survivable. ArP will be able to bypass defense directly now, instead of going through another layer of mitigation.

Thanks Vordayn and well said by the way. I just want to add that the Piercing Blades feat is not even a Trapper feat, which is what I imagine some might just assume. Not all HRs are Trappers folks. This particular feat is actually used in HR combat/melee builds, which is a very different build that does not even focus on rooting. I've been running one of these combat builds lately and it's been quite fun. But "overpowered" is hardly the word I would use for it. I look forward to this update and am hopeful it brings this particular build more up to par. I think it needs it.

Unknown · July 2017

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Unknown · July 2017

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nickjdowe · August 2017

As a PvP gwf I rely on my daily for a very specific rotation that mimics the GF rotation. It's not the end all be all of my build but I do stack more AP gain than your average GWF. That's just me though. Kind of off topic to discuss that in this thread though, but this thread went off topic like 17 pages ago with not a single response from a DEV since like page 4 or 5? We are just blowing smoke at this point.

wdj40 · August 2017

schietindebux said:

mahburg said:
So having been out of PVP for literally an age I took my GWF in (15k and change) strapped on PVP gear and thought lets see what if anything has changed, so having killed the pally Perma bubble, what did I find?
Teams with Lions spamming them constantly and literally back to back smoke bombs with zero cool down (XBOX).
Given that companions are not allowed, can someone explain the logic of allowing attack powers from mounts where five player teams with them turn into the god squad?

For me I feel that Mounts should be treat like companions and disabled in PVP given the game breaking effects some of them can have when used en masse.

Certainly I wont be trying again until the mod 12 changes go live on XBONE.
Agree , RIP PVP if there is no real solution concernig gear Boons etc.

The Lion Mount Combat power has completely ruined the game in my opinion. It is a complete joke and i have lost sooooo many kills and then died myself due to that piece of HAMSTER.

trentbail21 · August 2017

wdj40 said:

schietindebux said:

mahburg said:
So having been out of PVP for literally an age I took my GWF in (15k and change) strapped on PVP gear and thought lets see what if anything has changed, so having killed the pally Perma bubble, what did I find?
Teams with Lions spamming them constantly and literally back to back smoke bombs with zero cool down (XBOX).
Given that companions are not allowed, can someone explain the logic of allowing attack powers from mounts where five player teams with them turn into the god squad?

For me I feel that Mounts should be treat like companions and disabled in PVP given the game breaking effects some of them can have when used en masse.

Certainly I wont be trying again until the mod 12 changes go live on XBONE.
Agree , RIP PVP if there is no real solution concernig gear Boons etc.
The Lion Mount Combat power has completely ruined the game in my opinion. It is a complete joke and i have lost sooooo many kills and then died myself due to that piece of HAMSTER.

Yes but its no where's near as bad as piercing damage is it.

demonmonger · August 2017

https://youtu.be/sY864EzU7Vs

I am using every piercing damage feat that sabo has and i can't kill an afk person...
it's not all piercing that's bad. I am using all rank 12 radiants, and trans lightning enchant, mirage weapons (max refinement)

Unknown · August 2017

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cilginordek · August 2017

trentbail21 said:

Yes but its no where's near as bad as piercing damage is it.

In my opinion, as far as barrier of entry concerned: Lion > Piercing Damage > Ring of CC
Hurting fun gameplay wise: Piercing Damage > Ring of CC > Lion
What we're more likely to see a nerf of: Ring of CC > Piercing Damage > Lion
Since people have invested a lot in Lion, don't expect devs to do anything big about it and risk pissing off so many people.

demonmonger · August 2017

> @xsayajinx1 said:
> Nice video

Sorry... it was set to private.. video work's now

nisckis · August 2017

demonmonger said:
> @xsayajinx1 said:

> Nice video

Sorry... it was set to private.. video work's now

Well, you don't show neither your equipment and stats nor yours enemy's equipment and stats, so you could perfectly have equiped nothing useful before recording the video.

armadeonx · August 2017

You can't inspect enemies.

Official Feedback Thread: M12 Armor Pen Changes and PvP

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