Official Feedback Thread: M12 Armor Pen Changes and PvP

marnival

Another reason Gf tend to target eachother as they know the threat Tr target others just a side note ...

ayroux

marnival said:

Lets forget that there is twice as many Tr in any game then Gf on average (wonder why doh)

just as a comment on this. I can explain this one fairly easily.

1) more people like playing "DPS" than "Tanks". Yes in PVP CURRENTLY the GF gets to be the "master of all roles" with great damage, support (ITF), and control... however in PVE they are mostly just tanks + support.

2) A "rogue" class with stealth is often the most populated class in ANY game, even when they suck. In my years of playing wow, ESO, etc you name it, anything that stealths + high damage is a VERY popular class.

3) Finally - GF used to SUCK HARD for a long time. I remember when block was eaten up with 1 duelist flurry. Many players dont have the AD to bankroll more than 1 character with decent gear, so many players usually play the same class they have played for a long time.

I think all these contribute to more TRs than GF. I think GF is overtuned, but I dont think population is a good basis for "who is more OP"

marnival

ayroux said:

marnival said:

Lets forget that there is twice as many Tr in any game then Gf on average (wonder why doh)

just as a comment on this. I can explain this one fairly easily.

1) more people like playing "DPS" than "Tanks". Yes in PVP CURRENTLY the GF gets to be the "master of all roles" with great damage, support (ITF), and control... however in PVE they are mostly just tanks + support.

2) A "rogue" class with stealth is often the most populated class in ANY game, even when they suck. In my years of playing wow, ESO, etc you name it, anything that stealths + high damage is a VERY popular class.

3) Finally - GF used to SUCK HARD for a long time. I remember when block was eaten up with 1 duelist flurry. Many players dont have the AD to bankroll more than 1 character with decent gear, so many players usually play the same class they have played for a long time.

I think all these contribute to more TRs than GF. I think GF is overtuned, but I dont think population is a good basis for "who is more OP"

On the contrary the most OP will be the most played in games, cw ruled pve for a loooong time and was by far the most common pve class.
When it comes to pvp the new loadout somewhat changed it but the build for pvp and pve is not the same for Trs.

The reason for Tr being the most common pvp class is simply because they are the extreme defense the class has with some fotm builds that makes them effective with lower gear then most other classes.

Stealth itc deflect severity loooong dodges smoke + high damage makes them popular Yep you are right there can not argue about that ....

icyphish

vordayn said:

icyphish said:

FYI, BIS TR on preview server only deals like 30~50K SE damage, HR's damage is also reduced by about 40%. (and this is what Mod12 is like if no further change is made) As those two classes' damage is marginally reduced, they are hardly a threat to DC in the new mod. GWF never really have much chance to kill equally geared/skill DCs, SW/OP/DC has 0 chance to kill DC, CW while they can repel you out of the divine shield, they do not have the DPS to finish a equally geared DC.

So whats left now? GF become the only class that has the CHANCE to kill a DC (and its still VERY HARD on those 210~250K HP DC, considering they have to first bull charge the DC out of the shield, then use the remaining attacks to deal 300k+ damage, why 300k+ damage? because there's almost always GIFT that full heals a DC instantly)

I do not believe lowering the max %HP a Astral Shield can absorb would kill the class, especially with the new change to piercing damage, DC has even less threat than ever. On top of that, what does DC have? Break the Spirit that reduces the target's damage by 40% (which is definitely one of the BEST debuff skills), Gift of Faith (Pretty much gives the whole team 2 life bars), Heals, dodges, team buffs, dodges and insignials heals!

If Astral Shield does not get revised, then a DC will be as good as invincible in the new mod especially if there is no GF from the enemy team, needless to say, they also keep the whole team invincible. I strongly urge anyone that really cares about class balance to really consider this change, but this will definitely bring a better class balance to PvP as a whole. I would really appreciate if @rgutscheradev can look at this proposal from the Overall PvP Class Balance's view and make adjustments as necessary.

This is really looking at it from BiS perspectives of all players.

A new or lesser geared DC does not have many defensive powers. Without shield they are practically useless. A BiS DC is a differenet matter, but so are BiS of any classes.

Reducing the survivability of DCs by nerfing astral shield may make BiS clerics easier to kill for you and other strikers (and GFs of course ... not technically a striker -.-), but will make newer/lesser geared DCs even more dead meat. I see new clerics <10k IL come in with 80-90kHP, they probably don't have the recovery to cast AS as frequently, and definitely do not have the HP to absorb as much damage as a BiS.

This class balancing you are suggesting is only at the top end (BiS level) of things. If you want to make it so that it is more even, then perhaps reduce the recovery of all powers, and recovery/HP/deflect/power stacking. Or someone suggested equalising powers based on IL (which might work). But really, at BiS level, everything is difficult to kill without burst damage.

I think in terms of survivability, planar vitality is a worse culprit. If they keep planar vitality with high deflect characters which heal for 8k HP per successful deflection, then you won't be able to kill anyone with high deflect without said burst damage.

Boons, and every broken thing used by BiS players really needs to be looked at before nerfing a certain class skill.</p>

I was comparing EQUALLY GEARED players, if you are going to talk about fresh 10k IL GWF with 80-90k HP too, I can assure you they will die within 20 seconds into the battle field, and a lot faster than a DC. Its pointless comparing BiS vs Fresh 10k players.

The thing is, even at 10k ilvl, a properly geared DC with the HP armor and HP boon, can easily get 150K+ HP, and if they are going to be fighting 10k ilvl GWF, it will be the samething, they will NOT be able to put a dent on the DC, heck even 2~3 of those 10k ilvl GWF/SW/OP/DC (and soon HR/TR) will not be able to put a dent on the DCs, yes that's 6 out of 7 classes that will not have a chance to kill an equally geared DC, but then again, like I said above, its not a huge problem not being able to take down the DC, the problem is, the DC makes the whole team around them Immortal.

If we scale up the ilvl and bring up the HP pool then it is STILL THE SAME PROBLEM, nobody will have any chance to take down the DC other than a GF, except it only gets even harder at BiS level with the crazy HP absorption BiS DC has with their Astral Shield.

With the new coming nerf to Piercing Damage, BiS TRs are going to be hitting 30~50K damage with SE, and HR's damage is going to be nerfed by about 40%, which means, if your enemy team has no GF, then your whole team is as good as IMMORTAL, but you know whats even worst? Even if they have a GF on the enemy team, all you need is to have your team's TR perm-CB the GF, and once again, your team will be immortal.

I believe one of the main reasons of this whole Armpen and DR changes is just so that classes can be more balanced and people dont have to keep fighting those immortal armies. I would definitely appreciate if @rgutscheradev has the chance to revise Astral Shield to create an overall better balance to PvP. As of next mod, SW/GWF/OP/DC/HR/TR/CW will have NO CHANCE to even bring down a DC, so if the opponent's team has no GF or if their GF keeps getting CB (courage breaker) the whole match, then the DC's team is just as good as immortal (Astral Shield+Gift+Break the Spirit). Hence, for the sake of better PvP balance, I strongly urge Astral Shield to be revised in the near future...

marnival

icyphish said:

vordayn said:

icyphish said:

FYI, BIS TR on preview server only deals like 30~50K SE damage, HR's damage is also reduced by about 40%. (and this is what Mod12 is like if no further change is made) As those two classes' damage is marginally reduced, they are hardly a threat to DC in the new mod. GWF never really have much chance to kill equally geared/skill DCs, SW/OP/DC has 0 chance to kill DC, CW while they can repel you out of the divine shield, they do not have the DPS to finish a equally geared DC.

So whats left now? GF become the only class that has the CHANCE to kill a DC (and its still VERY HARD on those 210~250K HP DC, considering they have to first bull charge the DC out of the shield, then use the remaining attacks to deal 300k+ damage, why 300k+ damage? because there's almost always GIFT that full heals a DC instantly)

I do not believe lowering the max %HP a Astral Shield can absorb would kill the class, especially with the new change to piercing damage, DC has even less threat than ever. On top of that, what does DC have? Break the Spirit that reduces the target's damage by 40% (which is definitely one of the BEST debuff skills), Gift of Faith (Pretty much gives the whole team 2 life bars), Heals, dodges, team buffs, dodges and insignials heals!

If Astral Shield does not get revised, then a DC will be as good as invincible in the new mod especially if there is no GF from the enemy team, needless to say, they also keep the whole team invincible. I strongly urge anyone that really cares about class balance to really consider this change, but this will definitely bring a better class balance to PvP as a whole. I would really appreciate if @rgutscheradev can look at this proposal from the Overall PvP Class Balance's view and make adjustments as necessary.

This is really looking at it from BiS perspectives of all players.

A new or lesser geared DC does not have many defensive powers. Without shield they are practically useless. A BiS DC is a differenet matter, but so are BiS of any classes.

Reducing the survivability of DCs by nerfing astral shield may make BiS clerics easier to kill for you and other strikers (and GFs of course ... not technically a striker -.-), but will make newer/lesser geared DCs even more dead meat. I see new clerics <10k IL come in with 80-90kHP, they probably don't have the recovery to cast AS as frequently, and definitely do not have the HP to absorb as much damage as a BiS.

This class balancing you are suggesting is only at the top end (BiS level) of things. If you want to make it so that it is more even, then perhaps reduce the recovery of all powers, and recovery/HP/deflect/power stacking. Or someone suggested equalising powers based on IL (which might work). But really, at BiS level, everything is difficult to kill without burst damage.

I think in terms of survivability, planar vitality is a worse culprit. If they keep planar vitality with high deflect characters which heal for 8k HP per successful deflection, then you won't be able to kill anyone with high deflect without said burst damage.

Boons, and every broken thing used by BiS players really needs to be looked at before nerfing a certain class skill.</p>

I was comparing EQUALLY GEARED players, if you are going to talk about fresh 10k IL GWF with 80-90k HP too, I can assure you they will die within 20 seconds into the battle field, and a lot faster than a DC. Its pointless comparing BiS vs Fresh 10k players.

The thing is, even at 10k ilvl, a properly geared DC with the HP armor and HP boon, can easily get 150K+ HP, and if they are going to be fighting 10k ilvl GWF, it will be the samething, they will NOT be able to put a dent on the DC, heck even 2~3 of those 10k ilvl GWF/SW/OP/DC (and soon HR/TR) will not be able to put a dent on the DCs, yes that's 6 out of 7 classes that will not have a chance to kill an equally geared DC, but then again, like I said above, its not a huge problem not being able to take down the DC, the problem is, the DC makes the whole team around them Immortal.

If we scale up the ilvl and bring up the HP pool then it is STILL THE SAME PROBLEM, nobody will have any chance to take down the DC other than a GF, except it only gets even harder at BiS level with the crazy HP absorption BiS DC has with their Astral Shield.

With the new coming nerf to Piercing Damage, BiS TRs are going to be hitting 30~50K damage with SE, and HR's damage is going to be nerfed by about 40%, which means, if your enemy team has no GF, then your whole team is as good as IMMORTAL, but you know whats even worst? Even if they have a GF on the enemy team, all you need is to have your team's TR perm-CB the GF, and once again, your team will be immortal.

I believe one of the main reasons of this whole Armpen and DR changes is just so that classes can be more balanced and people dont have to keep fighting those immortal armies. I would definitely appreciate if @rgutscheradev has the chance to revise Astral Shield to create an overall better balance to PvP. As of next mod, SW/GWF/OP/DC/HR/TR/CW will have NO CHANCE to even bring down a DC, so if the opponent's team has no GF or if their GF keeps getting CB (courage breaker) the whole match, then the DC's team is just as good as immortal (Astral Shield+Gift+Break the Spirit). Hence, for the sake of better PvP balance, I strongly urge Astral Shield to be revised in the near future...

Same argument was made for Pals daily bubble see no reason not to treat this the same way in pvp.

kalina311

clonkyo1 said:

marko0987 said:

Min 0.54. XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD [cut due length problems... otherwise, i would just laugh]

fortunatelly for us all, Saberkick and Minime are what both are: an useless GWF only worth by killing pugs and a pugkiller by using the FotM class...

P.S. : sorry to tell you this, mate, but if you wanted to have some credibility on these forums, using both "Minime" and Saberkick to make your point just made you stand as a fool.

+1
yup those are the best worst examples possible to use...selfish Pvp kill farmers cowards that stay in camp that rarely coordinate or premade and or are on promotion é marketing themselves selling T shirts and drama

rustlord

marnival said:

Either sacrifice your overcompensated survivability to gain high damage or be prepared that your damage has to be minimum simple as that.

rustlord said:

I don't want to be your controller companion, and I don't want to be a stealth troll. I want to have freedom to choose a striker path and have all the ups and downs that entails -- if I have to be killable so be it!

@marnival

Edit: For subtlety

ayroux

icyphish said:

I would definitely appreciate if @rgutscheradev has the chance to revise Astral Shield to create an overall better balance to PvP. As of next mod, SW/GWF/OP/DC/HR/TR/CW will have NO CHANCE to even bring down a DC, so if the opponent's team has no GF or if their GF keeps getting CB (courage breaker) the whole match, then the DC's team is just as good as immortal (Astral Shield+Gift+Break the Spirit). Hence, for the sake of better PvP balance, I strongly urge Astral Shield to be revised in the near future...

I can concur with this. And below identifies the main source of the problem:

icyphish said:

Astral Shield has the following effect:
Create a shimmering shield at target location that improves the defenses of allies in its protective circle by 10%.

Divinity: Allies receive Temporary Hit Points.
Empowered: Astral Shield now consumes all stacks of Empowered to absorb a fixed amount of Damage on each attack. This absorb is equal to 3% of your maximum Hit Points for each stack consumed.

This skill provides 40%DR, which is fine but the main problem is it also absorbs 3% of your Max HP for each stack consumed, at 3 stacks, it would absorb 9% HP of the DC's Max HP EACH HIT (currently a lot of high end DCs runs at around 210~250K HP, and 9% of that is approximately 19~22K) Which also means, if your at-will, encounters hits less than ~20K damage per hit, you are practically dealing 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, damage on EACH HIT.This basically nullifies about ALL at will attacks and on top of that mitigates most of the less bursty classes' attacks (SW is definitely one of the biggest victims to this mechanic).

I think this has been debated quite a bit on the last few pages, and I do not play a DC so I wont go into tons of detail on suggestions but the issue is you needing to hit for more than X # (In Icy's example - 19-22k) So if you hit for 19k, it deals 0. If you hit for 19,001, youll deal 1 damage, etc.... Rather than being some sort of "Temp HP" Buffer where it can eventually be whittled down...

Or another potential is wrap this up in the "minimum 20%" effectiveness however this might be an over nerf (meaning if you hit for 100,000 damage and they had 80% DR after RI% you would hit for 20k... Since this is the minimum threshhold, the "absorb" wouldnt even come into play. If you hit for 100,000 damage and thye had 70% DR after RI%. Youl hit for 30k. This is reduced by 3%(* number of stacks = 9%) of DCs HP (so 20k) but this damage CANNOT be less than 20% of the pre-mitigated damage. Thus, the number is STILL 20k... Something like that? )

But this is a problem since classes that hit smaller amounts, faster (like SW) this basically moots the class out.

I dont want to see DC be useless. They are a self-less class that dont really do damage... So they SHOULD be able to survive and keep allies alive, but this is definitely a mechanic that should be looked at and is probably "over-tuned".

treesclimber

marnival said:

mamalion1234 said:

marnival said:

mamalion1234 said:

https://prnt.sc/ft5sfl . IF marks based on this tooltip reduce the enemies damage resistance ( that is different than they take in any case increased damage tooltips like swath of destruction from wizard) even if it stacks with the threatening rush how this affect pvp?

GF vanguard and gf swordmaster their difference is not that gf vanguard has the double mark but he has the trample the fallen increased 20% damage against controled targets.

No wrong! Trample only works against controlled targets hence warroir wrath is mostly used. The reason IV does more damage then SM is dubble mark. You can feat 2% more damage in trample due to offhand bonus but that is it.

Many that has lion use IV build because of the synergy between daily and lion to keep target prone works better for IV + dubble mark trample has nothing to do with it in the majority of cases(for some it might but not for the damage potential).

is very hard to get controlled in pvp?

No but trample dont trigger without target being controlled blocking a couple attacks ensure you have warr wrath stacked avoids the need to have targets under cc.

It is optional, the main reason to stay IV is dubble mark as SM has better utility and better cc option...

Prove it, i don't see that many TR's, make a pool in pvp zone ask which class each player plays the most in pvp, then we'll know.

TR's can be a pain is the HAMSTER, true, i see them with 18k recovery, on the other hand those TR's can't do any damage. TR's only go that way because there is no other way. Put it this way imagine GF's couldn't deal enough damage to kill opponents so there would be people building for terrifying impact, you see how TR's build so fast AP, GF's can get pretty close if they build to it, bull charge and flourish/frontline surge to make complement control. You get where i'm going, everybody would be complaining " GF's are so irritating, too much control but can't kill anything".

This doesn't mean i agree with the way TR's can build to control or any other irresistible control, the main guilty is CB, i would give it a very simple fix, change the slow to a complete immobilize and stun, with the big difference of all CC reduction be applied to the duration.

And boons Devs thought to be creative ideas like cold shoulder/ endless consumption should take a long walk to no come back land.

marko0987 said:

No @rustlord



I shouldn't have to say again, Kalina, some guy responded put saber or icy against a gf and watch the gwf always win lmao. I provide examples of them losing and then they're bad examples.....the stupidity.

Maybe you need to be more specific xD 2:44, 2 griphon's wrath left, no crits.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liup58_Plf0

vordayn

ayroux said:

I think this has been debated quite a bit on the last few pages, and I do not play a DC so I wont go into tons of detail on suggestions but the issue is you needing to hit for more than X # (In Icy's example - 19-22k) So if you hit for 19k, it deals 0. If you hit for 19,001, youll deal 1 damage, etc.... Rather than being some sort of "Temp HP" Buffer where it can eventually be whittled down...

Or another potential is wrap this up in the "minimum 20%" effectiveness however this might be an over nerf (meaning if you hit for 100,000 damage and they had 80% DR after RI% you would hit for 20k... Since this is the minimum threshhold, the "absorb" wouldnt even come into play. If you hit for 100,000 damage and thye had 70% DR after RI%. Youl hit for 30k. This is reduced by 3%(* number of stacks = 9%) of DCs HP (so 20k) but this damage CANNOT be less than 20% of the pre-mitigated damage. Thus, the number is STILL 20k... Something like that? )

But this is a problem since classes that hit smaller amounts, faster (like SW) this basically moots the class out.

I dont want to see DC be useless. They are a self-less class that dont really do damage... So they SHOULD be able to survive and keep allies alive, but this is definitely a mechanic that should be looked at and is probably "over-tuned".

Playing a CW, I find it easy to nullify DCs with control. Next mod meta points to perma-control HR and TRs. DCs gonna have a hard time already with this.

IF change to AS for DCs, should give something to DCs to be able to at least fight back against striker classes. If DCs cannot protect allies, then function of faithful DCs in PvP goes downhill, what is their use in a party?

If tweaks to AS, there must also be changes to insane burst damage from GF/GWFs. Also, it better not affect how AS functions in PvE.

rustlord

Ok ok... geez. Back to topic xD

rgutscheradev said:

[...] What do people think? Leave healing as-is in PvP? Tune the existing number up or down? Do something more complicated?

As I've blabbered plenty to my friends in game, if healing depression is ever to get an update (Yes, it should) it should be around 30% so as not to push it too far, but hopefully make an impact. But I agree with you simpler is better.

Would I propose to change certain items, or powers to heal for less? Definitely, that seems balanced in the scheme of things. But complicated things tend to spawn complicated bugs. But honestly if we're going the complex route anyway -


The best of both worlds here is to have a stacking healing depression above the current 50%. This means that the longer you are in combat, the more healing depression affects on you. This simulates the idea of expendable resource. In the end it's still easy to understand "the longer we fight the more worn down we become."

@rgutscheradev

kreatyve

Cleaned up some of the flaming on the last 2 pages. Please keep things on topic, stop fighting with each other. If you disagree, fine. Don't be insulting other players, mentioning them and telling them why they are wrong. Keep the PvP in the game and off the forums.

darthtzarr

@noworries#8859 @rgutscheradev

Because Wheel of Elements: Fire was piercing damage based off of the actual damage (as opposed to base damage like Piercing Blade), it is now being double mitigated by tenacity, and was always double mitigated by reduced incoming damage sources such as the GF block and CW shield.

On the flip side (this part is untested), it is possible that the wheel is benefiting from debuffs twice as well, since it theory it should with the current piercing changes.

mamalion1234

icyphish said:

vordayn said:

icyphish said:

FYI, BIS TR on preview server only deals like 30~50K SE damage, HR's damage is also reduced by about 40%. (and this is what Mod12 is like if no further change is made) As those two classes' damage is marginally reduced, they are hardly a threat to DC in the new mod. GWF never really have much chance to kill equally geared/skill DCs, SW/OP/DC has 0 chance to kill DC, CW while they can repel you out of the divine shield, they do not have the DPS to finish a equally geared DC.

So whats left now? GF become the only class that has the CHANCE to kill a DC (and its still VERY HARD on those 210~250K HP DC, considering they have to first bull charge the DC out of the shield, then use the remaining attacks to deal 300k+ damage, why 300k+ damage? because there's almost always GIFT that full heals a DC instantly)

I do not believe lowering the max %HP a Astral Shield can absorb would kill the class, especially with the new change to piercing damage, DC has even less threat than ever. On top of that, what does DC have? Break the Spirit that reduces the target's damage by 40% (which is definitely one of the BEST debuff skills), Gift of Faith (Pretty much gives the whole team 2 life bars), Heals, dodges, team buffs, dodges and insignials heals!

If Astral Shield does not get revised, then a DC will be as good as invincible in the new mod especially if there is no GF from the enemy team, needless to say, they also keep the whole team invincible. I strongly urge anyone that really cares about class balance to really consider this change, but this will definitely bring a better class balance to PvP as a whole. I would really appreciate if @rgutscheradev can look at this proposal from the Overall PvP Class Balance's view and make adjustments as necessary.

This is really looking at it from BiS perspectives of all players.

A new or lesser geared DC does not have many defensive powers. Without shield they are practically useless. A BiS DC is a differenet matter, but so are BiS of any classes.

Reducing the survivability of DCs by nerfing astral shield may make BiS clerics easier to kill for you and other strikers (and GFs of course ... not technically a striker -.-), but will make newer/lesser geared DCs even more dead meat. I see new clerics <10k IL come in with 80-90kHP, they probably don't have the recovery to cast AS as frequently, and definitely do not have the HP to absorb as much damage as a BiS.

This class balancing you are suggesting is only at the top end (BiS level) of things. If you want to make it so that it is more even, then perhaps reduce the recovery of all powers, and recovery/HP/deflect/power stacking. Or someone suggested equalising powers based on IL (which might work). But really, at BiS level, everything is difficult to kill without burst damage.

I think in terms of survivability, planar vitality is a worse culprit. If they keep planar vitality with high deflect characters which heal for 8k HP per successful deflection, then you won't be able to kill anyone with high deflect without said burst damage.

Boons, and every broken thing used by BiS players really needs to be looked at before nerfing a certain class skill.</p>

I was comparing EQUALLY GEARED players, if you are going to talk about fresh 10k IL GWF with 80-90k HP too, I can assure you they will die within 20 seconds into the battle field, and a lot faster than a DC. Its pointless comparing BiS vs Fresh 10k players.

The thing is, even at 10k ilvl, a properly geared DC with the HP armor and HP boon, can easily get 150K+ HP, and if they are going to be fighting 10k ilvl GWF, it will be the samething, they will NOT be able to put a dent on the DC, heck even 2~3 of those 10k ilvl GWF/SW/OP/DC (and soon HR/TR) will not be able to put a dent on the DCs, yes that's 6 out of 7 classes that will not have a chance to kill an equally geared DC, but then again, like I said above, its not a huge problem not being able to take down the DC, the problem is, the DC makes the whole team around them Immortal.

If we scale up the ilvl and bring up the HP pool then it is STILL THE SAME PROBLEM, nobody will have any chance to take down the DC other than a GF, except it only gets even harder at BiS level with the crazy HP absorption BiS DC has with their Astral Shield.

With the new coming nerf to Piercing Damage, BiS TRs are going to be hitting 30~50K damage with SE, and HR's damage is going to be nerfed by about 40%, which means, if your enemy team has no GF, then your whole team is as good as IMMORTAL, but you know whats even worst? Even if they have a GF on the enemy team, all you need is to have your team's TR perm-CB the GF, and once again, your team will be immortal.

I believe one of the main reasons of this whole Armpen and DR changes is just so that classes can be more balanced and people dont have to keep fighting those immortal armies. I would definitely appreciate if @rgutscheradev has the chance to revise Astral Shield to create an overall better balance to PvP. As of next mod, SW/GWF/OP/DC/HR/TR/CW will have NO CHANCE to even bring down a DC, so if the opponent's team has no GF or if their GF keeps getting CB (courage breaker) the whole match, then the DC's team is just as good as immortal (Astral Shield+Gift+Break the Spirit). Hence, for the sake of better PvP balance, I strongly urge Astral Shield to be revised in the near future...

Shield of Faith

for 12 seconds at rank 4 allies have -30% incoming damage and receive 30% more healing. More easy to cast that on a paladin and will not go on cooldown on dodge attempt casting at the same time ( astral shield fails to land and go on cooldown).
ANd also a paladin maybe do not have hallowed ground but has great heal-controls ( refering to devotions) and aura of courage and wisdom and power sharing?
Why i comment ? thats how the enemy party will counter the enemies with the dc.

on gf am i allowed to use knight valor? or in pvp we should not protect party?

IS better for devs first to fix serious problems like the critical strike resistance then you can say about the protective spells.

toporok

Not everyone who plays a pvp cleric is a faithful healer. I don't believe astral shield keeps a whole team immortal, I have never seen 5 players on one point stacking in astral shield. I believe gift of faith is a far bigger problem then AS, it's like having an extra soul forged enchantment ever time it procs. Team runs to point 2 gets gift of faith dps spreads out cleric stays on 2 GOF props dps runs back to 2 for refresher, rinse, repeat.
As a righteous divine oracle damage is low , self healing is terrible, AS is the only way to be able to survive high dps toons even then with end game pvpers with lions I don't stay in a shield for long, change gift of faith before astral shield please

Unknown

This content has been removed.

zeusom

@rgutscheradev

I love that the removal of tenacity and stat changes opens up so many build and gear options in pvp. There can be so many different effective builds. PLEASE CONSIDER Enabling an option which sets gear and stats as private. This gives a player the ability to have their gear/stats be proprietary. Otherwise people just inspect each other and steal a player's build which often took many hours of testing, and there is nothing a player can do about it.

As you can see there is a huge interest in pvp and players are excited that pvp is getting attention. Many of the issues that are being addressed in Mod12b are the very reasons for the low pvp population.

rayrdan

@rgutscheradev
this is my final feedback:
i love every change you are proposing and i hope they will come live in a couple of mods.
I play a HR, my damage went mostly down the toiler but in a ideal word where balance is achieved i feel is just right.
about healing depression i feel 50% is enough but i would change (PVP only) astral shield to give half of the current value as immunity.
HOWEVER all these changes are pointless when something as brutally overpowered as GFs are able to do and oneshot whatever they want.
They run as fast as a TR, shield as much as Paladin, control as much as ..noone and deal the greatest burst of the game.
Thumbs up man but its time to open both eyes.

good job, you handled the thread well

trentbail21

treesclimber said:

Maybe you need to be more specific xD 2:44, 2 griphon's wrath left, no crits.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liup58_Plf0

Congrats you understand why there's like 5-10 good gwfs between all the game platforms lol. They all just got tired of being one rotated or one hit. =D

@rgutscheradev

I support the changes with tenacity and armor pen good job man.

trgluestickz

armadeonx said:

BTW if you guys are looking for ideas on new pvp formats, there was a popular one in Guild Wars where opposing teams had to claim 'mines' and escort or attack npc carriers who transported stuff between the mines and 'home base'.

It's very different from the usual 'kill the opposition' format and my old alliance played it all the time.

This is basically stronghold siege.

Edit: The rest of this comment was better suited to a different feedback thread so I deleted it here and moved it to another thread.

heraldfayez

i am simply typing this to support all what have been said and these changes but seriously GWF needs a good major rework we have a lot of bugs / feats that either DO NOT wok PROPERLY or DO NOT work AT ALL specially in sentinel / instigator tree wich are very useless and no one even bother using
adding to this Unstoppable bug should also be adressed as it has caused me a lot of deaths as i lost my roation and beleive it or not i got kicked couple of times from parties thinking i caused it to reset on purpose some people DO NOT understand that the calss mechanic is bugged sometimes (i think this has been adressed in preview patch notes but i will not beleive it until i test myself on live)
so we only have 1 path viable and few feats that we can choose from both for heroic and paragon so seriously both sentinel and insigator needs a major rework as i tried building a Tank GWF but failed because of bugs in sentinel tree
i keep trying to switch feats arround as well but most of them are bugged or don't work as stated in the tooltip or are very underwhelming to use in both PVE & PVP

so just please devs take into consideration that a class should not be nerfed completely or rendered ineffective/useless as i only paly as GWF because i love the class and if it gets nerfed i might have to leave for few mods or for good if i take a long break and this isn't only my opinion a lot of players in this thread agree as well
it has been rough for TRs as well too as they struggle with DPS output

The HR rework happened lately was very good

i hope my message gets to the devs as i can only hope for that

trgluestickz

zeusom said:

@rgutscheradev

PLEASE CONSIDER Enabling an option which sets gear and stats as private. This gives a player the ability to have their gear/stats be proprietary. Otherwise people just inspect each other and steal a player's build which often took many hours of testing, and there is nothing a player can do about it.

Gear and stats should NOT be private, in fact, I would like to see everything on character sheets made public.
Right now, there are still some things you can't inspect a person for like feats, @rgutscheradev, this should be undone if you get time for it in the future.

100% public stats helps builds get better since now people will be able to see what you are doing and improve upon it.
The more eyes see a build, the more chances there is for someone to find a tweak that makes it better than before.
Oftentimes a tweak will make its way back to the origional owner of a build and then they will start using it too.
Hiding builds also cuts down on how much info is avalable for newcommers and other build testers to work with.
Yes there is a risk of a player diciding to plagerize your build but lets be honest, there is no such thing as an origional build. Whatever you do, someone else has undoubtably done before whether you know about it or not.
I would rather risk a few copy cats than have this game be even less intuitive than it already is.

If too many people end up dead set on making it so you can have 100% private stats, then at the very least, there should also be an option to make your stats 100% public. This would make it much easier to show people your build amoung other benifits.

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trgluestickz

etelgrin said:

zeusom said:

@rgutscheradev

I love that the removal of tenacity and stat changes opens up so many build and gear options in pvp. There can be so many different effective builds. PLEASE CONSIDER Enabling an option which sets gear and stats as private. This gives a player the ability to have their gear/stats be proprietary. Otherwise people just inspect each other and steal a player's build which often took many hours of testing, and there is nothing a player can do about it.

As you can see there is a huge interest in pvp and players are excited that pvp is getting attention. Many of the issues that are being addressed in Mod12b are the very reasons for the low pvp population.

Totally agreed. The stats, build and others should be able to make private if person doesn't wish for it to be public. Its their build, their composition of stats, opponent should only know what kind of caliber he is fighting by displaying the TIL, thats all.

The problem with this is you are advocating for a dev to make a change to the game that doesn't actually help anyone and decreases the knowledge pool for everyone.

Those keeping their build secret ironically harm their build by doing so.
Builds are much more likely to stagnate if 1 person is the only one working on it.
Builds with lots of feedback avalable tend to grow and improve at a much faster rate.
and as I have mentioned above, the knowledge pool shrinks under this sugestion for both "origional" build owners and everyone else seeking good info to help improve their gaming experiance.
Whether everyone realizes the above or not, I don't think the devs should allocate a cent or second on something that makes the game worse overall especially considering how restricted resources are.
Have the devs spend time on changes that actually improve the game, don't ask for things that only appease a selfish few who value credit more than progress.

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beckylunatic

You learn the most by being grounded in mechanics and not copycatting a build, but I don't think every player should be expected to reinvent the wheel, y'know? If there were amazing mechanics guides for every class, that would be optimal. The best build guides to go into mechanics and explain why the things they advocate doing work, instead of just saying "put points here".

Shockingly, most guides structured like that are directed at PvE.

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trgluestickz

xsayajinx1 said:

I am of completely the opposite opinion than you @trgluestickz.



I think real knowledge about your own class comes from theorycrafting, testing and playing.

If you just copycat another players build you will never go too deep into synergies & different playstyles.



I give @zeusom my + for his idea!

You are only reffering to only one type of player out of many who could potentially make use of a larger avalable library of build information.

It is obvious that doing your own testing and theorycrafting tends to get you better results than not doing your own testing and theorycrafting, this point of yours is not "completly the oposite opinion" of me at all.
However, that does not mean that you should never incorperate things from other builds.
The entire point of build testing is to answer the question of what works the best for what you are trying to accomplish, sometimes what works the best will be your own idea, othertimes what works the best will be an idea somebody else unearthed.
Not everyone wanting to see what is working for other people is looking to just copy everything they did without weighing it against their own ideas.
You should be willing to test any idea presented regardless of its origin and may the best ideas win.

There will always be some people who aren't interested in doing their own testing and just want a good build to use.
I see no reason why this type of player can't change their mind later and decide they want to do their own testing.
I even know a prominant build tester who did exactly that, @sirjimbofrancis. This player used to run build info given to them by another of my guild's build testers, @sn0wt0ri0us, and was later inspired by it to become a build tester themselves.
Not everyone has the time to do their own build testing and I'd rather see these people walking around with a good build than a poor one.
Remember, the more people using good builds there are, the more likely you are to end up with people who are using good builds in your groups and teams.
Its not like a copy cat who doesn't test is going to preform better than the origional author who does test so I see little reason to be oposed to this behavior.
If anything, a build tester should be flattered if another player likes their build so much that they dicide to use it.

People who try to completly steal credit for a build instead of simply using it themselves or expanding upon it are an unfortunate scenario but they are something that would still exist even if character sheets were 100% private.
You might reduce the number of them with a change like you are proposing but I see far too many cons for far too little gain.
Again, this idea is a waste of precious dev time.

beckylunatic said:

You learn the most by being grounded in mechanics and not copycatting a build, but I don't think every player should be expected to reinvent the wheel, y'know?

Exactly, +1 @beckylunatic

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