We already have enough teamplay, what we need is less teamplay. Mmo's started forcing people into teamplay in the early 2000's. Before that an mmo was a place where you can go solo and eventually team up. The trend should shift back to the good old ways. Reinventing the wheel is always a bad idea.
What MMO(s) are you talking about that didn't force teamplay? I have played pretty much every MMO that has come out and I have yet to see one that didn't force teamplay on you in one way or the other. Also, who seriously complains about teamplay in an MMO? If you don't like teamplay, maybe MMO's aren't for you.
I think I can almost make out which class you play in PvP, sir
Just a personal opinion, I really don't think the HR is balanced at all, sir. Basically none of the 'problems' which people considered them to be overpowered had ever been fixed, save a small dip in survival and a fix to something that was simply at a bugged level of OPness.
Admittedly, it was us TRs who cast such a large shadow over others, that the "focus of hate" has been all concentrated on us TRs as a 'common enemy', but I have a feeling then when our big shadow is cleared, people would probably be reminded of what the HRs can do. They are still great and powerful adversaries, and meeting a good HR always makes me nervous.
Its always like that, one monster gets overshadowed by another. People always scratch where it itches the most first. And that would be the TR spot right now . My own TR testing is all done now, Im back to my main and so far I've been reaping the benefits of knowing how rogues operate when facing one.
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Okay before suggesting that make sure you also add in something needs to be done with how intim procs are calculated. By this I mean power does not directly become more damage and should be based on weapon damage (300-350%) so as to balance 12k power builds(this involves using sorbet and some other pots) if your temp hp change was to come to live.
If you read it again, i already mentioned it in the part colored in red:
- for sentinels should be something like 20%-40% half bar-full bar. In PvE, it becomes 40-80% temp HPs. After healing depression. Taking into account current determination gain, sentinels must be able to tank through unstoppable consistently. Now it's not consistent not even for sentinels with all the piercing damage and DPS. With a damage reduction as you suggest, making sentinel a lot less able to deal burst DPS, i think the path should then "burst tank". AKA: you should not be able to take down a sentinel in unstoppable. It should be that moment during which a sentinel can really absorb a ton of damage and you just have to evade. If piercing damage has to stay, give temp HPs back to unstoppable.
Which, translated, means: if you reduce the damage from intimidation (taken into account) then you must make the class able to burst tank.
I think right now sentinel needs a bit less burst damage and more tankiness. Meaning no more monster intimidation procs at high GS but, as suggested by others, a more reliable and balanced damage working at any GS. So, let's say the class right now has a offensive potential of 70 with 20-25k, or more (depending on the enemy you hit/debuffs exc...),inti procs at BiS level, able to deal huge spikes, and a defensive potential of 30, with unstoppable being in a bad shape and piercing damage/ glyphs/ buffed classes eating fast through your HP.
Suggestion is to give a offensive potential of let's say 55 and a 45 defensive potential. Which would also work at any GS level ans scale normally, while right now intimidation builds are confined to very high gear levels. Now you would have sentinels that would hit around 4-5k normal and like 10-13k crit with buffs ideally, and tank a more than it can now. Make the necessary balance changes to make it so a sentinel feels really tanky but not such a DPS monster in PvP at BiS levels. Still a overall DPS class but more tank oriented.
Overall the class was moved to very squishy/ low survivability and semi-good DPS but only at high GS levels. Now i think the GWF should have its 3 paths able to deliver either tankiness with more AoE DPS compared to a GWF, which would be sentinel.
Main, High AoE DPS with mediocre but good enough tankyness and the option to be support single-target DPS switching encounters, with CWs becoming main AoE CC and only support AoE DPS. And this should be destroyer.
Hybrid DPS/tank for PvP as a viable PvP DPS oriented path, compared to the more tanky but overall less offensive sentinel.
What instigator would do is picking single target enemies in PvP, while sentinel would be a brawler for group fights with its AoE encounters and ability to "pull" the enemies with CAGI (which imho should have a stronger pull, bringing enemies on top of the GWF).
GWF needs a certain tankyness for both PvP and PvE, so i think destro should be a bit more tanky than it is now. Mainly for PvE. So temporary HP buff is perfect cause in PvE works wonders with destro being in unstoppable most of the time and with high life steal, while in PvP it would be under HD and lasting 4-8 seconds would not make destro a PvP monster, and people would rather go instigator for PvP DPS.
Considering a GWF in PvE cannot be, imho, both tanky and main single target DPS, i think it would be a good move to make it main AoE DPS instead, with CW more focused on controlling and dealing actually less AoE DPS than GWF destroyers.
This if you want to give roles. If you want every class to be able to be DPS with proper build then give to GWF proper dodge immunity to survive through skill. Cause making a melee warrior with no dodge squishy is a bad move. GWF right now have very low survivability at same GS levels cause DR, which was the main source of survivability, now is quite obsolete.
If you read it again, i already mentioned it in the part colored in red:
Which, translated, means: if you reduce the damage from intimidation (taken into account) then you must make the class able to burst tank.
I think right now sentinel needs a bit less burst damage and more tankiness. Meaning no more monster intimidation procs at high GS but, as suggested by others, a more reliable and balanced damage working at any GS. So, let's say the class right now has a offensive potential of 70 with 20-25k, or more (depending on the enemy you hit/debuffs exc...),inti procs at BiS level, able to deal huge spikes, and a defensive potential of 30, with unstoppable being in a bad shape and piercing damage/ glyphs/ buffed classes eating fast through your HP.
Suggestion is to give a offensive potential of let's say 55 and a 45 defensive potential. Which would also work at any GS level ans scale normally, while right now intimidation builds are confined to very high gear levels. Now you would have sentinels that would hit around 4-5k normal and like 10-13k crit with buffs ideally, and tank a more than it can now. Make the necessary balance changes to make it so a sentinel feels really tanky but not such a DPS monster in PvP at BiS levels. Still a overall DPS class but more tank oriented.
Overall the class was moved to very squishy/ low survivability and semi-good DPS but only at high GS levels. Now i think the GWF should have its 3 paths able to deliver either tankiness with more AoE DPS compared to a GWF, which would be sentinel.
Main, High AoE DPS with mediocre but good enough tankyness and the option to be support single-target DPS switching encounters, with CWs becoming main AoE CC and only support AoE DPS. And this should be destroyer.
Hybrid DPS/tank for PvP as a viable PvP DPS oriented path, compared to the more tanky but overall less offensive sentinel.
What instigator would do is picking single target enemies in PvP, while sentinel would be a brawler for group fights with its AoE encounters and ability to "pull" the enemies with CAGI (which imho should have a stronger pull, bringing enemies on top of the GWF).
GWF needs a certain tankyness for both PvP and PvE, so i think destro should be a bit more tanky than it is now. Mainly for PvE. So temporary HP buff is perfect cause in PvE works wonders with destro being in unstoppable most of the time and with high life steal, while in PvP it would be under HD and lasting 4-8 seconds would not make destro a PvP monster, and people would rather go instigator for PvP DPS.
Considering a GWF in PvE cannot be, imho, both tanky and main single target DPS, i think it would be a good move to make it main AoE DPS instead, with CW more focused on controlling and dealing actually less AoE DPS than GWF destroyers.
This if you want to give roles. If you want every class to be able to be DPS with proper build then give to GWF proper dodge immunity to survive through skill. Cause making a melee warrior with no dodge squishy is a bad move. GWF right now have very low survivability at same GS levels cause DR, which was the main source of survivability, now is quite obsolete.
GWF doesn't need to be more tanky, destroyer.. maybe. All the damage of other classes needs to be toned down. Make it actually possible to land IBS if people want intimidation's scaling changed (need a prone)
GWF doesn't need to be more tanky, destroyer.. maybe. All the damage of other classes needs to be toned down. Make it actually possible to land IBS if people want intimidation's scaling changed (need a prone)
destroyer, sentinel, and instigator all hit hard...really hard. Why should they become tankier? if they become tankier they should lose dps capabilities in proportion.
destroyer, sentinel, and instigator all hit hard...really hard. Why should they become tankier? if they become tankier they should lose dps capabilities in proportion.
I think you might have misread the quote / post. Another person said they should be tankier, I'm saying they shouldn't. Here..
Intim GWF's hit hard, yes, but they don't hit as hard as a TR or CW, and in some cases, even a DC. But GWF has no dodge / ridiculous deflect buff like the other classes do.
So by comparison GWF is squishy, only because they can't dodge all the piercing / obscene damage. I'm saying keep GWF survival where it is (apart from destroyer maybe, pretty squishy) and bring the other classes down quite a few notches. I run a sentinel with 48%DR and 23%Ten and get chopped down in 1-3 seconds regularly with no outs.
If intimidation scaling needs to be changed, it needs to be changed amongst changes to other classes, and IBS needs to land. Prone!
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grobb1Member, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 34
You talk due to personal experience or...?
The fact you met a destro in PvP and it looked strong to you, might very well mean that you are weaker. Not that the build is anywhere balanced for PvP.
Cause imho it is not.
Unless you get full DP stacks, you deal less damage than TR, HR, CW, SW, DPS DC.
Even if you gear it to be tanky with full PBI set, stack HP, stack deflection, you are still squishy against all the piercing damage and high DPS burst flying around. So you need to kill fast. And you really can't cause you have to build up stacks of capstone vs dodging and moving enemies, wasting time.
You can make it viable the way i made my instigator viable but you are underpowered compared to BiS builds like intimidation sentinels and other classes' PvP builds. And whenever you meet one, you realize the gap that there is currently between a destroyer in PvP and the BiS intimidation build.
Or a insti build and a intimidation build.
Now, destroyer in its core mechanics is aimed at PvE. If you have a bit of in-depth knowledge of the class, you know it. Skilled players like Squishy or other skilled GWF can gear it up enough and use it well enough to make it viable in PvP but imho it's too slow at building up damage and no matter how much you gear it up, it does not have enough tools to survive long enough vs CWs or TRs or HRs of the same gear level.
For example, even going unstoppable often, the 30% DR is quite useless in PvP compared to 80% from Aegis. Your base damage is not that high without stacks. If you use PF to build the 10 stacks faster you allow CWs and SWs to evade more.
Now if even intimidation sentinels get burnt down quite fast by CWs at 45k-50k Hp and rely on their buffed unstoppable to tank that bit more to kill the enemy with intimidation, i don't think a destroyer will last that long to build his stacks.
PvP nowadays is made by fast fights and high DPS burst. Destro is made for PvE. Each and every mechanic is perfect for PvE and struggles to find utility in current PvP. I explained it also in a Insti vs Destro thread in the barracks.
I am now convinced this person hasnt learned the GWF properly, I am sure he/she gets info 2nd hand regardless of what he/she says about it. There is too many faulty and untrue statements said about gwf from these type of people. My build as a GWF is destroyer with 14 con and all i do is pvp(and i am fine with these TR's). I have built many gwf builds on different characters and effectively played sent and am now effectively playing destroyer(full glass cannon). With my current build of no constitution on a destroyer build i do alot better in pvp then i do in pve as in pve i am constantly having to down health pots during a fight and after- thats in pve.
If no-one's said it already, try playing a trapper. Whole lotta buttons to press, and the order matters even. Wow.
I agree with the OP for my CW, and to a lesser extent my TR, TRs look easy, but there's a fair degree of tactics and thinking ahead involved too, unless I suppose you are 22k+ at which point it's 90% stompfest. Mine's a 16k baby TR, oneshot zero survival build. But very fun atm.
Call me weird, but I actually think pvp is the best it's been since mod2 when I started playing originally. I play a 16k CW, straight pve build in pvp, still dominate half the time, a 22k HR trapper fully geared which is a struggle this mod, but fun, and my new TR.
Whats silly is class balance isnt hard to achieve, just a few small tweaks here and there and it would be much more balanced.
TR/HR - Remove all piercing damage. This nerfs SE/SoD/Shadowy Opp. For TR one other thing that needs to be changed is Lashingblade's stealth bonus needs to be a reduced CD (like 30%) instead of 50% more damage.
This fixes TR damage without over-nerfing them
GWF - remove damage on "mark" as well as powerful challenge damage bonus - Mark now only gives combat advantage. This is a massive nerf to overall damage (and a massive nerf to intimidation too). Give damage back via STR = 2% dmg (up from 1%). ~DOUBLE at will damage. Change intimidation to 350% of weapon damage. Also I like the idea mentioned of ~doubling the Temp HP from unstoppable but this should be given at the END of unstoppable rather than when you pop it so it would give 16-32% Temp HP once unstoppable ends as a "buffer" to help you get to your next unstoppable.
DCs- Whatever the bug is with either Test of Faith of Gift of faith needs to be fixed.
GF - Tab changed to a "stance" Offensive stance = ITF (Damage+movement+AP gain buff) that is a perma buff. Defensive stance = Knights Valor (splits damage with team). Both these have 100% uptime, you can swap between them but once swapped you cant swap again for say 6 seconds (to avoid back and forth). Now GF can play both roles of a striker and defender without losing 3 encounter slots to do so. The only liability is GFs would have crazy dmg potential with Knights Challenge - so this would need to be nerfed down and ideally changed. This could work like Mark used to. An "At will" Encounter essentially with no CD, Marks the target (no dmg buff just CA bonus like GWFs) but Marked targets deal 25% less damage to your teammates and you deal 25% more damage to them. This now has both offensive and defensive utility.
SWs- I dont know, they just need some love. Maybe their Shift needs to be much stronger and grant an "ITC" equivalent during shift - aka immune to damage essentially as well as control. Not sure if that would help much.
Boom, done. Module balanced just in time for it to get all screwed up via lvl 70.
Comments
What MMO(s) are you talking about that didn't force teamplay? I have played pretty much every MMO that has come out and I have yet to see one that didn't force teamplay on you in one way or the other. Also, who seriously complains about teamplay in an MMO? If you don't like teamplay, maybe MMO's aren't for you.
Its always like that, one monster gets overshadowed by another. People always scratch where it itches the most first. And that would be the TR spot right now
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
If you read it again, i already mentioned it in the part colored in red:
Which, translated, means: if you reduce the damage from intimidation (taken into account) then you must make the class able to burst tank.
I think right now sentinel needs a bit less burst damage and more tankiness. Meaning no more monster intimidation procs at high GS but, as suggested by others, a more reliable and balanced damage working at any GS. So, let's say the class right now has a offensive potential of 70 with 20-25k, or more (depending on the enemy you hit/debuffs exc...),inti procs at BiS level, able to deal huge spikes, and a defensive potential of 30, with unstoppable being in a bad shape and piercing damage/ glyphs/ buffed classes eating fast through your HP.
Suggestion is to give a offensive potential of let's say 55 and a 45 defensive potential. Which would also work at any GS level ans scale normally, while right now intimidation builds are confined to very high gear levels. Now you would have sentinels that would hit around 4-5k normal and like 10-13k crit with buffs ideally, and tank a more than it can now. Make the necessary balance changes to make it so a sentinel feels really tanky but not such a DPS monster in PvP at BiS levels. Still a overall DPS class but more tank oriented.
Overall the class was moved to very squishy/ low survivability and semi-good DPS but only at high GS levels. Now i think the GWF should have its 3 paths able to deliver either tankiness with more AoE DPS compared to a GWF, which would be sentinel.
Main, High AoE DPS with mediocre but good enough tankyness and the option to be support single-target DPS switching encounters, with CWs becoming main AoE CC and only support AoE DPS. And this should be destroyer.
Hybrid DPS/tank for PvP as a viable PvP DPS oriented path, compared to the more tanky but overall less offensive sentinel.
What instigator would do is picking single target enemies in PvP, while sentinel would be a brawler for group fights with its AoE encounters and ability to "pull" the enemies with CAGI (which imho should have a stronger pull, bringing enemies on top of the GWF).
GWF needs a certain tankyness for both PvP and PvE, so i think destro should be a bit more tanky than it is now. Mainly for PvE. So temporary HP buff is perfect cause in PvE works wonders with destro being in unstoppable most of the time and with high life steal, while in PvP it would be under HD and lasting 4-8 seconds would not make destro a PvP monster, and people would rather go instigator for PvP DPS.
Considering a GWF in PvE cannot be, imho, both tanky and main single target DPS, i think it would be a good move to make it main AoE DPS instead, with CW more focused on controlling and dealing actually less AoE DPS than GWF destroyers.
This if you want to give roles. If you want every class to be able to be DPS with proper build then give to GWF proper dodge immunity to survive through skill. Cause making a melee warrior with no dodge squishy is a bad move. GWF right now have very low survivability at same GS levels cause DR, which was the main source of survivability, now is quite obsolete.
GWF doesn't need to be more tanky, destroyer.. maybe. All the damage of other classes needs to be toned down. Make it actually possible to land IBS if people want intimidation's scaling changed (need a prone)
More pvp "fun" today. http://i.imgur.com/odJUpKk.jpg
I think you might have misread the quote / post. Another person said they should be tankier, I'm saying they shouldn't. Here..
Intim GWF's hit hard, yes, but they don't hit as hard as a TR or CW, and in some cases, even a DC. But GWF has no dodge / ridiculous deflect buff like the other classes do.
So by comparison GWF is squishy, only because they can't dodge all the piercing / obscene damage. I'm saying keep GWF survival where it is (apart from destroyer maybe, pretty squishy) and bring the other classes down quite a few notches. I run a sentinel with 48%DR and 23%Ten and get chopped down in 1-3 seconds regularly with no outs.
If intimidation scaling needs to be changed, it needs to be changed amongst changes to other classes, and IBS needs to land. Prone!
I am now convinced this person hasnt learned the GWF properly, I am sure he/she gets info 2nd hand regardless of what he/she says about it. There is too many faulty and untrue statements said about gwf from these type of people. My build as a GWF is destroyer with 14 con and all i do is pvp(and i am fine with these TR's). I have built many gwf builds on different characters and effectively played sent and am now effectively playing destroyer(full glass cannon). With my current build of no constitution on a destroyer build i do alot better in pvp then i do in pve as in pve i am constantly having to down health pots during a fight and after- thats in pve.
Who cares about a TR, if you're scared roll a gwf
I agree with the OP for my CW, and to a lesser extent my TR, TRs look easy, but there's a fair degree of tactics and thinking ahead involved too, unless I suppose you are 22k+ at which point it's 90% stompfest. Mine's a 16k baby TR, oneshot zero survival build. But very fun atm.
Call me weird, but I actually think pvp is the best it's been since mod2 when I started playing originally. I play a 16k CW, straight pve build in pvp, still dominate half the time, a 22k HR trapper fully geared which is a struggle this mod, but fun, and my new TR.
TR/HR - Remove all piercing damage. This nerfs SE/SoD/Shadowy Opp. For TR one other thing that needs to be changed is Lashingblade's stealth bonus needs to be a reduced CD (like 30%) instead of 50% more damage.
This fixes TR damage without over-nerfing them
GWF - remove damage on "mark" as well as powerful challenge damage bonus - Mark now only gives combat advantage. This is a massive nerf to overall damage (and a massive nerf to intimidation too). Give damage back via STR = 2% dmg (up from 1%). ~DOUBLE at will damage. Change intimidation to 350% of weapon damage. Also I like the idea mentioned of ~doubling the Temp HP from unstoppable but this should be given at the END of unstoppable rather than when you pop it so it would give 16-32% Temp HP once unstoppable ends as a "buffer" to help you get to your next unstoppable.
DCs- Whatever the bug is with either Test of Faith of Gift of faith needs to be fixed.
GF - Tab changed to a "stance" Offensive stance = ITF (Damage+movement+AP gain buff) that is a perma buff. Defensive stance = Knights Valor (splits damage with team). Both these have 100% uptime, you can swap between them but once swapped you cant swap again for say 6 seconds (to avoid back and forth). Now GF can play both roles of a striker and defender without losing 3 encounter slots to do so. The only liability is GFs would have crazy dmg potential with Knights Challenge - so this would need to be nerfed down and ideally changed. This could work like Mark used to. An "At will" Encounter essentially with no CD, Marks the target (no dmg buff just CA bonus like GWFs) but Marked targets deal 25% less damage to your teammates and you deal 25% more damage to them. This now has both offensive and defensive utility.
SWs- I dont know, they just need some love. Maybe their Shift needs to be much stronger and grant an "ITC" equivalent during shift - aka immune to damage essentially as well as control. Not sure if that would help much.
Boom, done. Module balanced just in time for it to get all screwed up via lvl 70.