They probably should remove TR 2 sec reveal..instead, make them unable to go stealth till their stealth bar is 100% full. Also using power from stealth will ensure them 100% crit but will reveal them and emptied their stealth bar to 0%...they need to wait till the stealth bar to regen back to 100% to be able to enter stealth again. All i see now in pvp is stealth warfare..i m getting dizzy trying to point at TR in that 2 sec frame..
Another alternative is make them move like old man in stealth..80% movement reduction while in stealth..i mean u cant be moving like a jet while u are sneaking rite?
As far as i can see (but maybe i miss some point) it actually the case that TR canno't goes back to steath if the bar is not full. but they have (more or less depending of scoundrel, sab or exec) many way to refill it full. If you just speak about stealth power, a sab have by is capstone is bar fully refil with using any encounter once every 15 second i think (not 100% sure about the time), there still have at least two more encounter that recharge it and also one daily. Since a stealth bar with pvp set remain for 4-5 second That where some came with the daily thing, on a sab you more or less end with at least 20-25 second of steath time while it take around 12-15 second to have a full encounter refresh. With the dodge and refill, it still remain possible to remain 80% perma steath while in the same time the 20 % supposed opening is only dodge rolling. it give you the oportunity to get one big shot slotted and a daze and till play like that. on V4 and before if TR's wanted a perma stealth it was with a real lack of damage . no more actualy.
The little windows opened during refill for opponent attack is where HL bis TR run with high deflect, while they run with higher dps with AP gain / refil equipment to get a high DPS. It's where normal TR'S, can be fight by other class while BIS / HR TR'S canno't.
it make difference between Tr'S and other class, TR's victory mainly are on there hand, while other class victory count in some luck (for passing DEV) and also TR'S mistake. of course any mystake from other class is equal death. On the top of that i think the worst in V5 about TR'S is they have no class that can fight on equal ground. (HR's V3 was still weaK again CW, GWF V3 was still weak again HR, CW V4 was still weak again HR'S and GWF).
As far as i can see (but maybe i miss some point) it actually the case that TR canno't goes back to steath if the bar is not full. but they have (more or less depending of scoundrel, sab or exec) many way to refill it full. If you just speak about stealth power, a sab have by is capstone is bar fully refil with using any encounter once every 15 second i think (not 100% sure about the time), there still have at least two more encounter that recharge it and also one daily. Since a stealth bar with pvp set remain for 4-5 second That where some came with the daily thing, on a sab you more or less end with at least 20-25 second of steath time while it take around 12-15 second to have a full encounter refresh. With the dodge and refill, it still remain possible to remain 80% perma steath while in the same time the 20 % supposed opening is only dodge rolling. it give you the oportunity to get one big shot slotted and a daze and till play like that. on V4 and before if TR's wanted a perma stealth it was with a real lack of damage . no more actualy.
The little windows opened during refill for opponent attack is where HL bis TR run with high deflect, while they run with higher dps with AP gain / refil equipment to get a high DPS. It's where normal TR'S, can be fight by other class while BIS TR'S canno't.
yea well..another easier way is to mantain the 2 sec reveal but greatly nerf the stealth regen including feat or power that could help them regen. I think the developer got the idea of 2sec reveal through the intro where to TR girl appear and disappear as she hit the monster..but they forgot the last part where her stealth bar run out and she got caught.
All in all, i think TR should have a time frame where they need to take a full rotation hits from other class before they able to enter stealth again.. to be fair to other classes...
They probably should remove TR 2 sec reveal..instead, make them unable to go stealth till their stealth bar is 100% full. Also using power from stealth will ensure them 100% crit but will reveal them and emptied their stealth bar to 0%...they need to wait till the stealth bar to regen back to 100% to be able to enter stealth again. All i see now in pvp is stealth warfare..i m getting dizzy trying to point at TR in that 2 sec frame..
Another alternative is make them move like old man in stealth..80% movement reduction while in stealth..i mean u cant be moving like a jet while u are sneaking rite?
Sir.. I'm a bit confused.
1. Currently, we already cannot enter stealth unless bar is full.
2. Currently, encounters save one or two utilities, already consume stealth status.
3. Currently, at-wills deplete stealth meter - realistically speaking we have about 3~5 shots max
Sir, it's not a bad thing to be misinformed. Happens to any of us. But I do believe its a bad thing to suggest balance changes without adequate knowledge of the game system. If anything it undermines the credibility of the statement to such a level, that it makes people wonder, "this person is probably having troubles in PvP because he doesn't know how to play it"
Please sir, know us, before you bash us. Us TRs actually agree on many of the OP problems. But we also find it disheartening to see so many people are simply making nerf calls based on misinformation.
1. Currently, we already cannot enter stealth unless bar is full.
2. Currently, encounters save one or two utilities, already consume stealth status.
3. Currently, at-wills deplete stealth meter - realistically speaking we have about 3~5 shots max
Sir, it's not a bad thing to be misinformed. Happens to any of us. But I do believe its a bad thing to suggest balance changes without adequate knowledge of the game system. If anything it undermines the credibility of the statement to such a level, that it makes people wonder, "this person is probably having troubles in PvP because he doesn't know how to play it"
Please sir, know us, before you bash us. Us TRs actually agree on many of the OP problems. But we also find it disheartening to see so many people are simply making nerf calls based on misinformation.
nah its not that i have grudge against TR..i respect its a stealth class..else i will be suggesting to remove stealth from a stealth class like some ppl in the forum..
i never played TR so i dunno how ur stealth mechanics work..pardon me on that but still..my point is in this mod, with the damage boost given to TR, developer should tone down abit stealth usage in pvp..atleast give other class a full rotation time frame to hit them would be fair..dun u agree? or u disagree and that TR stealth is now balance and shouldnt be nerf?
1. Currently, we already cannot enter stealth unless bar is full.
2. Currently, encounters save one or two utilities, already consume stealth status.
3. Currently, at-wills deplete stealth meter - realistically speaking we have about 3~5 shots max
Sir, it's not a bad thing to be misinformed. Happens to any of us. But I do believe its a bad thing to suggest balance changes without adequate knowledge of the game system. If anything it undermines the credibility of the statement to such a level, that it makes people wonder, "this person is probably having troubles in PvP because he doesn't know how to play it"
Please sir, know us, before you bash us. Us TRs actually agree on many of the OP problems. But we also find it disheartening to see so many people are simply making nerf calls based on misinformation.
You are one of the fiew, many are explaining that yes Tr's should remain the terror, that normal for them to win any fight in 1 vs 1
Thre is some change to do, what ever target is tr's nerf or other class buff to get a better situation. Where i honestly do not know what part need to be rework. I do not know if you are a HL / bis player but if that the case i wonder what would be your result fight with High deflect / life but without using stealth in one to one (execpt at the beginning). Why, well simply i think that even with out steath, defensive mechnism of the TR is already on a high lvl among the rest of the class (even if you change power for more fighting one)
I'm also one of the few playing instigator right now and trying to make it work so it's a unique chance to see a real instigator free into the wild! You thought they were just a mythological creature, but PvP instigator is alive
Have you considered swordmaster and crescendo? In any case, the only proposed nerf would be the damage threshold of Anvil being 30% instead of 40%. I've seen GF's easily drop people below 40% in 1 rotation not including anvil. Requiring just a little bit more isn't a stretch considering the CC ignore on Blocking.
Once again (write this down if you cannot memorize it on your own.) Anvil of doom used to activate at 35% hp, now it activates at 40% hp. The GF community, myself included shaped the class when GMC asked us what we think it might be lacking and implemented it. If Aod would activate at 30% it would render the entire skill as utterly - useless, due to the fact, (you most likely aren't even aware of this.) that our entire damage, aswell as healing capabilities received a nerf of 40-60% already, because reckless attacker does not do, what it is supposed to be doing anymore, aka. add +100% power.
No clue about the shield - drama. Pal, you are hitting a shield and not the actual player. Get the shield meter down FIRST, so you are actually hitting the character, then start applying your CC's (common sense).
I think you are just too inexperienced when in terms of the GF class. Just as i keep on reading people trying to convince others, that a GF cannot be a dps/burst dps class (which btw. is the dumbest thing i read so far, about the class), even though the specs are : Conqueror - BURST DPS, That not so great Protector thing - MEATSHIELD, And Tactician as - UTILITY. Are you even playing as a GF???
There is not a single class with equal items, that a GF can possibly kill in a single rotation. Other classes can -> D-O-D-G-E <- PLUS, they have several other ways to escape a GF. Go ahead and one shot a HR. Post the video right here, into this thread please. Or a TR, go 1on1 against a TR, post how you 1 shot the TR here, too please. A GF on the other hand, can get 1 shotted by several classes or burned down with heavy hitting dots, kited into oblivion etc.
Like i said, know what you are talking about, before actually making these silly assumptions and giving wrong suggestions. It makes you look a little silly, if people who actually know what they are talking about, chime in to say what's really up and how it's done properly.
You are one of the fiew, many are explaining that yes Tr's should remain the terror, that normal for them to win any fight in 1 vs 1
Thre is some change to do, what ever target is tr's nerf or other class buff to get a better situation. Where i honestly do not know what part need to be rework. I do not know if you are a HL / bis player but if that the case i wonder what would be your result fight with High deflect / life but without using stealth in one to one (execpt at the beginning). Why, well simply i think that even with out steath, defensive mechnism of the TR is already on a high lvl among the rest of the class (even if you change power for more fighting one)
Sir, we're hardly "few".
It doesn't take a brain surgeon to see that a single Sabo TR which uses 7 Bloodbaths in under 3 minutes to single handedly defeat two BiS fighters each with over 50k HP -- is plain wrong. Nor does it take as much brain power to see an Executioner starting off the match with a 36k First-Strike Shocking Execution + bugged 36k SoD... and then immediately allowed to use a slightly lesser hitting version -- is plain wrong.
Contrary to what many other players think, there are actually many good TRs who don't believe in the bogus pseudo-logic that invites flame wars. The forums represent only a small part of the entire PvP population.
However, I cannot say that the TR players in these forums do not have good reason to turn so defensive. In these forums, sir, there are people who would simply see us TRs ruined and utterly destroyed for whatever petty grudge they hold, and everyday there is a gigantic, huge pile of truths mixed in with fiction. There are justified nerf requests being mixed in with straight-up lies, misinformation, intentional slandering out of malice. So many people who call out for nerfs to our class do not really understand why certain things are happening. Without joking, if the devs grant every nerf wish people cry out, what's left of the TRs in PvP are simply individually skinnedd red-cap mobs. That's what some people would have us become, sir.
TRs in games receive hate mails and curse-tells from people just because they've played a TR. Even when they are not using any of the "OP stuff" mentioned in these boards, people who lose simply bunch up all TRs into one, false image and then actually curse and swear at us for simply playing this game as a certain class. Some people say that they kick TRs in PvE just because they hate the class in pvP. In these boards some of the so-called "opinion leaders" shamelessly propagate false information and lies about our class.
Whenever something like this happens, sir, some TRs lash out in anger. As a result, every TR in this forum is now just as much angry -- even the ones that have at first treated nerf calls and balance discussions with respect. People don't listen to us, sir. They tell us everything we try to explain is simply a lie, because we're TRs ourselves, we must be lying, and whatever we try to reason or logic with is simply a sham, we're only trying to "protect broken TRs"... they don't even listen to any explanations on how certain mechanics operate or how you can beat it. According to them, we're all liars, sir.
At this point there has simply been so much animosity and simply blind range and hatred tossed around amongst each other, that often threads like these lose all function and are turned useless.
...so that being said, sir, as a TR player since forever, devoted to the tricks and trades of the class in terms of combat, I give you my answer to your opinion on your comment in where you said "even with out steath, defensive mechnism of the TR is already on a high lvl among the rest of the class".
To this, I will simply reply, sir, "Try it yourself, go up to lv60 PvP and see how far you go with just dodges, deflect and ITC". If a little explanation is due;
(a) chance-based mechanics are supplementary at best. nobody builds up their combat plan upon the element of luck.
(b) contrary to what some people say, average deflection rate of Scoundrels rarely, if ever, surpass 50%
(c) sabos and execs usually dump the stats that contribute to deflect. They average in around 25~30%
I'll leave it up to you judge whether this is ture, or "another lie and ruse to protect broken stuff". The choice is yours to make, sir.
mirrorballs
again and again nerf TR surviability deflect severity to 50% , ITC , dodges and stealth, and HAVE FUN. he didnt imply that other classes should have 1 shot button, he implied that TR should be squishy as hell.
I love mirrorballs posts XD
And he's right. I agree that TR needs a tone down, but many of teh stuff people are asking in here are just too much, and would destroy the class.
If I may remind you all, the reason why TRs sucked so much for so long is exactly because of nerf threads, the devs nerfed everything about them, and what was left? just a sad little class with not much else to do, besides stay in the shadows and throw things at others. So excuse us if we don't thrust those same people once again in being able to ask for a balanced class, because we won't.
I love mirrorballs posts XD
And he's right. I agree that TR needs a tone down, but many of teh stuff people are asking in here are just too much, and would destroy the class.
If I may remind you all, the reason why TRs sucked so much for so long is exactly because of nerf threads, the devs nerfed everything about them, and what was left? just a sad little class with not much else to do, besides stay in the shadows and throw things at others. So excuse us if we don't thrust those same people once again in being able to ask for a balanced class, because we won't.
tell me what problem will the TR have oneshotting people, if the ITC, deflect severity , dodges are nerfed and leave the 2s revea ? tell me how this will affect his oneshot habbit?l
I'm against dodge nerf by the way, not all TRs have ITC, I'm a Wk and my only mean of defense when outside stealth is dodges.
TRs are supposed to be a nimble and mobile class, so 3 dodges are needed. we had 2 before and it was never enough, we were one of the slowest classes.
I love mirrorballs posts XD
And he's right. I agree that TR needs a tone down, but many of teh stuff people are asking in here are just too much, and would destroy the class.
If I may remind you all, the reason why TRs sucked so much for so long is exactly because of nerf threads, the devs nerfed everything about them, and what was left? just a sad little class with not much else to do, besides stay in the shadows and throw things at others. So excuse us if we don't thrust those same people once again in being able to ask for a balanced class, because we won't.
dude tr was never a weak class in pvp....
mirrorballs has no clue what he is talking about half the time, he doesnt even know that a tr is out of itc for less than 9 sec that can be covered with dodges/BB, BB that can reset all the cds anyway and so on!
Just cause you have no clue what your class does, doesnt mean that requested fixes arent justified!
mirrorballs
again and again nerf TR surviability deflect severity to 50% , ITC , dodges and stealth, and HAVE FUN. he didnt imply that other classes should have 1 shot button, he implied that TR should be squishy as hell.
Sir, deflection is not what's causing the TR's survivability. As a matter of fact it's not even all TRs which have that amount of survivability. It's basically ITC, and therefore, basically Master Infiltrators.
In mod5, the devs first sought to disencourage permastealth and force the TRs into more active combat by implementing stealth depletion with at-wills. Then, after lauch, they added in another "2 second revelation" mechanic to give the victims of TRs a chance to retaliate.
THE REAL PROBLEM -- the current FotM TR builds, MI Saboteuers and Executioners, each have methods which circumvent the above implements the devs placed.
Sabo MIs
- permastealth is even easier for Sabos = huge damage
- permastealth is even easier for Sabos = almost no visible opening for others enemies nearby
- Sabos have a way to force dazes almost as long as Scoundrels, so the "2s revelation" made null and void
- Sabos also have a way to circumvent the "shortened stealth" through their own feats, so stealth depletion meaningless
- in the rare, rare cases they are caught with their pants down = ITC
- whenever in need of more firepower, abnormal rate of daily spamming through abnormal rate of AP gain
Exec MIs
- 1-shot anything with bugged feats and poorly designed features
- that "1-shotgun", is actually double barrel = double SE when 1st one kills
- that "1-shotgun", is actually rapid load = abnormal rate of AP gain through OP artifacts
- has a side-arm that also kills, called Lashing Blades, also courtesy of bugged feats and poor design
- after you shoot and your position is blown = ITC
In both cases they simply, completely ignore the balance attempts. Deflection has nothing to do with their survivability, sir. Dodges and deflections are nothing but basic tools which have always existed. Even when the dodge is reverted to before, these MIs don't really need to use more than 2 at a time because they already have ITC up and available in most cases.
What's making them so difficult to bring down is all on ITC sir. None of what you suggest is going to change anything for these TR types that topple the game balance. What it does, sir, is simply obliterate OTHER TRs which have nothing in common with these MI Sabo/Execs. Specifically speaking, it's a death sentence to all Whisperknives when people start demanding nerfs on deflection or dodges because it's us WKs that will suffer, not the MIs.
Like said, sir, MI Sabos and Execs don't even use deflection in the first place. About 70% of their killing power comes from broken-as-hell AP generation items which are OP for ALL classes, btw, and the rest 30% comes from their own broken feats and designs such as piercing damage, no-brainer permastealthing, or 40k+ attacks. 80% of their untouchability comes from ITC alone, sir.
OTOH, WKs don't have ITC. We only have VP, which is a 1-time CC breaker, and for some reason bugged so that it can't even break out of Ray of Frost or Trapper roots. In our case, sir, we can do many of what the MIs can do, but we're also exactly what you say the TRs should be. We're squishy. A well timed CC means the death of us. The super-long dazes of WK scoundrels don't mean anything in domination where an existence of a 3rd man will render useless the strengths of the WK. We die a lot, sir. Imagine a MI TR that doesn't have Shocking Execution and ITC. That's us, sir.
...and the changes you are demanding, again, they aren't going to do anything against all them MIs, sir, because they don't rely on those.
But we do, sir.
Don't get me wrong -- I don't object to your general premise, sir. But your target, and the method, is wrong.
mirrorballs has no clue what he is talking about half the time, he doesnt even know that a tr is out of itc for less than 9 sec that can be covered with dodges/BB, BB that can reset all the cds anyway and so on!
Just cause you have no clue what your class does, doesnt mean that requested fixes arent justified!
You're probably confusing me with someone else, sir. Because I haven's said or implied any of what you claim about me in the above. I'm actually the person in this thread nuancing a need for a balance/nerf to ITC, sir.
I'm sorry if I write too much, and it may become hard to understand. I'll try to keep things short and to the point, sir.
You're probably confusing me with someone else, sir. Because I haven's said or implied any of what you claim about me in the above. I'm actually the person in this thread nuancing a need for a balance/nerf to ITC, sir.
I'm sorry if I write too much, and it may become hard to understand. I'll try to keep things short and to the point, sir.
only if you stop with the "sir" thing, it is a SE for my brain!
Once again (write this down if you cannot memorize it on your own.) Anvil of doom used to activate at 35% hp, now it activates at 40% hp. The GF community, myself included shaped the class when GMC asked us what we think it might be lacking and implemented it. If Aod would activate at 30% it would render the entire skill as utterly - useless, due to the fact, (you most likely aren't even aware of this.) that our entire damage, aswell as healing capabilities received a nerf of 40-60% already, because reckless attacker does not do, what it is supposed to be doing anymore, aka. add +100% power.
No clue about the shield - drama. Pal, you are hitting a shield and not the actual player. Get the shield meter down FIRST, so you are actually hitting the character, then start applying your CC's (common sense).
I think you are just too inexperienced when in terms of the GF class. Just as i keep on reading people trying to convince others, that a GF cannot be a dps/burst dps class (which btw. is the dumbest thing i read so far, about the class), even though the specs are : Conqueror - BURST DPS, That not so great Protector thing - MEATSHIELD, And Tactician as - UTILITY. Are you even playing as a GF???
There is not a single class with equal items, that a GF can possibly kill in a single rotation. Other classes can -> D-O-D-G-E <- PLUS, they have several other ways to escape a GF. Go ahead and one shot a HR. Post the video right here, into this thread please. Or a TR, go 1on1 against a TR, post how you 1 shot the TR here, too please. A GF on the other hand, can get 1 shotted by several classes or burned down with heavy hitting dots, kited into oblivion etc.
Like i said, know what you are talking about, before actually making these silly assumptions and giving wrong suggestions. It makes you look a little silly, if people who actually know what they are talking about, chime in to say what's really up and how it's done properly.
Have a good evening, though.
Would you like me to demonstrate, then? A single rotation involving Bullcharge, Crescendo, Flourish, and Anvil can literally take out anybody, especially at even GS.
The only saving grace from this is getting a lucky deflect on Bullcharge, or building high enough Control Resist to escape.
A geared GF with Conquerer, P. Vorpal, and proper stats can certainly 1 rotation anybody.
Crush is normally the one (from what I have seen) who deals with balance issues. Maybe there are others that flag things to do but from what I have seen its been Crush.
'What's that? The feature I have been working on for nearly 3 months solid is nearing completion? Oh joy of joys! Hopefully players like it!"
3 months solid - means no game balance for the last three months.
Given that the Paladin is announced today, its probably been that.... So he has spent his time working on a new class instead of balancing the existing ones.
Also now that lvl cap will be 70 as well as more feats/class features ETC to use. Balance will be a whole new game and we can basically take ALOT of whats going on right now and throw it out the window.
I just hope they dont make artifact equipment obsolete, ALOT of player will be PISSED.
1 - If you add to that "math" of yours "Lashin Blade" and "Shadow Strike", you have the rotation of my Executioner... and, on my last match, OWPvP, i ended up with a 17/1 KD ratio.
Terribly sorry sir. That should have been "without ITC". For some reason I wrote it wrong in the prior post.
2 - My sab is newbie (just level 41), but he already has 25% rate on deflection... being naked. My executioner has 41.3% on deflection in PvE set.
Keep going, sir, and post us the pics when u do reach 60 Not being sarcastic, but one might have thought that the TRs in this thread have "already been there, done that."
Also, sir, I do not see the relevancy of using pve sets. I could also get my deflect up higher if I give up my other stats, but that would bring me gradually under 30k HP and turn myself into a PvE build as well. Were we not talking about PvP, sir? Do u PvP in your PvE set sir?
But, the problem here, sir, is that IF TR-class can dump CHA and DEX (main deflection sources of TR-class) in favor of STR and CON and still deflects that much, that means that something is wrong in there or with the class itself.
Can I ask for a pic of your stats sir? Ill need to see what kind of stat distribution we're talking about. Because what you're saying is a bit hard to believe.
2 - My sab is newbie (just level 41), but he already has 25% rate on deflection... being naked. My executioner has 41.3% on deflection in PvE set. But, the problem here, sir, is that IF TR-class can dump CHA and DEX (main deflection sources of TR-class) in favor of STR and CON and still deflects that much, that means that something is wrong in there or with the class itself.
Sir, I've actually given this some more thought into theorycrafting. I've started with my own case into how the stats work out. Hence, in my case:
Race = human
GS = almost exactly 20k
Gear = Profound Scoundrel (highest deflect stats among the 3 choices)
HP = almost exactly 40k
15 STR / 20 CON / 21 DEX / 14 INT / 13 WIS / 20 CHA (campfire buff treated as constant)
Deflection = 44%
Due to a variety of weighting pros and cons I've actually decided to choose human to try and make use for three extra feats, and I've got only 2 points into the deflection feat, and a full 5/5 to the t1 of the Scoundrel, which gives me 2.5% extra. Being a WK I don't have access to the 3% MI feat.
So, naked without gear, I stand at 33.5% deflection. This means the entire gear gives an extra of 10.5%. I don't even have any Silveries into it because currently, at 2662 deflection the diminishing returns is so miserably high, that it's about worthless. All of the defense slots went to rads for more HP.
So, at base, naked level, we can break it down like this.
From this we can see all of the deflect related boons provide 3% extra.
In your case, you said you are a Executioner that gets 43% deflection without any investment into DEX/CHA and just PvE suit. From this, we can probably suppose that you are a halfling, a MI, and have 3 points into the deflect feat. So I've grown curious how much stats it would take for an Executioner, with a PvP suit this time, to have a 43% deflection. Assuming this PvP suit is Profound Scoundrel, and also does not have any Silveries..
Of the above 14 DEX+CHA points, 2 is provided free at lv30 and 60...
So, for an Executioner or Sabo to achieve 43% without any extra investment into DEX/CHA stats with PvP gear you would need the following:
1. must be halfling
2. must be MI
3. pick all deflect related boons, must pick Lucky Skirmisher heroic feat
4. use only Profound Scoundrel, a total gear-induced deflect boost of around 10% or more
5. need DEX+CHA total of over 32 when added together
6. if 4 provides more than 10% in 1% increment each, then conversely 5 can be lowered by 1 point each
...I think 5 is by itself a stretch -- it would probably need a max DEX/CHA roll of something like 16/14, so with the +2 initial bonuses it might be done.. but probably will result in STR, CON and INT roll. Will probably have to check the dice roll screen to see how it actually rolls. The pressure of low HP is going to effect deeply, and pure damage output would also might not be optimal.
I really think it's safe to say Sabos and Execs have it between 30~40%, sir. I do remember keltz0r having only 22% or so (or maybe lower...) but that was a really, really long time ago when DEX didn't give any deflect bonuses.
TL;DR;sirs,
If you want a Sabo or an Executioner to have around 40% deflection, without sacrificing your defense slots in armor to Silveries, or making stat investments to DEX and CHA... you need to roll for a maximum possible DEX+CHA at character creation, which exceeds a total of 30
I guess we can summarize it this way, sir. It could be possible for a MI to just settle for a HP amount much lower than 40k, but IMO anything lower than 40k for any player/class in PvP works only under a certain level of opponents... but I admit this perception could be a skewed one due to having to survive the fights without any nifty ITC for such a long time.
Sorry, about which one we are talking about? my "main" TR or my "newbie" level 41 TR?
BTW: all my chars but 1, GWF half ork, are human.
The 'main', sir.
Although, I saw your other post only after I've posted the one above. 13 CON and 27 DEX explains pretty much everything. (It also confirms the theorycrafting that one needs a BIG initial DEX+CHA stat sum, as well)
In my case, even at 19 CON it took me a lot of radiants and artifacts to be able to add in 5k more HP to reach the 40k mark, but if you don't value HP that much (if it is an Executioner, which self-discipline his code/mode of action strictly), I can see how lower HP can work out for you, sir.
and how is that a HUGE NERF to DPS?! can you see the imbalance it will bring if they give 10 more feat points, 1 example will be the possibility to make an INTIMIDATION DESTROYER, holy shieet man? full stacks of destroyer's purpose then a big whoooping intimidation hit?! NICE RIGHT?
I think what would be more likely is Sentinels picking up Executioner's Style and Battle Awareness on top of Disciple of War. Further power loading (rec and arpen to power), IBS would hit even harder at the end of the DS-CaGI rotation, plus Savage Advance in there would reduce the cooldowns on DS and CAGI.
I know that is what I'd do with my GWF. Maintain the superior tankiness of the Sentinel while greatly enhancing its damage output.
PSA: You don't need to grind Spinward Rise for your Elemental artifact main hand if you have some AD lying around. You can craft it via the Tyranny of Dragon's campaign screen.
I think every single GWF here though about that... but, first: 41 points on Tree feats means 8 feats + 1 capstone, GWF-class will go for the Destroyer's Capstone instead for the Sentinel one, making Intimidation hit as hard as Tiamat..., so, sorry if I do not see DEVs letting, in example, CW-class going hybrid renegade - Thau either... THAT would be game breaking.... not talking about hybrid Scoundrel (Contusive Strikes) + other Path... Sorry, i think that those 10 "new feats points" will be to get into a new "epic" path, not to buff the old ones.
Yeah, you are probably correct. I didn't even think about Executioners getting more daze and stealth. PVP would be traumatic.
PSA: You don't need to grind Spinward Rise for your Elemental artifact main hand if you have some AD lying around. You can craft it via the Tyranny of Dragon's campaign screen.
Comments
As far as i can see (but maybe i miss some point) it actually the case that TR canno't goes back to steath if the bar is not full. but they have (more or less depending of scoundrel, sab or exec) many way to refill it full. If you just speak about stealth power, a sab have by is capstone is bar fully refil with using any encounter once every 15 second i think (not 100% sure about the time), there still have at least two more encounter that recharge it and also one daily. Since a stealth bar with pvp set remain for 4-5 second That where some came with the daily thing, on a sab you more or less end with at least 20-25 second of steath time while it take around 12-15 second to have a full encounter refresh. With the dodge and refill, it still remain possible to remain 80% perma steath while in the same time the 20 % supposed opening is only dodge rolling. it give you the oportunity to get one big shot slotted and a daze and till play like that. on V4 and before if TR's wanted a perma stealth it was with a real lack of damage . no more actualy.
The little windows opened during refill for opponent attack is where HL bis TR run with high deflect, while they run with higher dps with AP gain / refil equipment to get a high DPS. It's where normal TR'S, can be fight by other class while BIS / HR TR'S canno't.
it make difference between Tr'S and other class, TR's victory mainly are on there hand, while other class victory count in some luck (for passing DEV) and also TR'S mistake. of course any mystake from other class is equal death. On the top of that i think the worst in V5 about TR'S is they have no class that can fight on equal ground. (HR's V3 was still weaK again CW, GWF V3 was still weak again HR, CW V4 was still weak again HR'S and GWF).
yea well..another easier way is to mantain the 2 sec reveal but greatly nerf the stealth regen including feat or power that could help them regen. I think the developer got the idea of 2sec reveal through the intro where to TR girl appear and disappear as she hit the monster..but they forgot the last part where her stealth bar run out and she got caught.
All in all, i think TR should have a time frame where they need to take a full rotation hits from other class before they able to enter stealth again.. to be fair to other classes...
Sir.. I'm a bit confused.
1. Currently, we already cannot enter stealth unless bar is full.
2. Currently, encounters save one or two utilities, already consume stealth status.
3. Currently, at-wills deplete stealth meter - realistically speaking we have about 3~5 shots max
Sir, it's not a bad thing to be misinformed. Happens to any of us. But I do believe its a bad thing to suggest balance changes without adequate knowledge of the game system. If anything it undermines the credibility of the statement to such a level, that it makes people wonder, "this person is probably having troubles in PvP because he doesn't know how to play it"
Please sir, know us, before you bash us. Us TRs actually agree on many of the OP problems. But we also find it disheartening to see so many people are simply making nerf calls based on misinformation.
nah its not that i have grudge against TR..i respect its a stealth class..else i will be suggesting to remove stealth from a stealth class like some ppl in the forum..
i never played TR so i dunno how ur stealth mechanics work..pardon me on that but still..my point is in this mod, with the damage boost given to TR, developer should tone down abit stealth usage in pvp..atleast give other class a full rotation time frame to hit them would be fair..dun u agree? or u disagree and that TR stealth is now balance and shouldnt be nerf?
You are one of the fiew, many are explaining that yes Tr's should remain the terror, that normal for them to win any fight in 1 vs 1
Thre is some change to do, what ever target is tr's nerf or other class buff to get a better situation. Where i honestly do not know what part need to be rework. I do not know if you are a HL / bis player but if that the case i wonder what would be your result fight with High deflect / life but without using stealth in one to one (execpt at the beginning). Why, well simply i think that even with out steath, defensive mechnism of the TR is already on a high lvl among the rest of the class (even if you change power for more fighting one)
Is this like seeing bigfoot?
Once again (write this down if you cannot memorize it on your own.) Anvil of doom used to activate at 35% hp, now it activates at 40% hp. The GF community, myself included shaped the class when GMC asked us what we think it might be lacking and implemented it. If Aod would activate at 30% it would render the entire skill as utterly - useless, due to the fact, (you most likely aren't even aware of this.) that our entire damage, aswell as healing capabilities received a nerf of 40-60% already, because reckless attacker does not do, what it is supposed to be doing anymore, aka. add +100% power.
No clue about the shield - drama. Pal, you are hitting a shield and not the actual player. Get the shield meter down FIRST, so you are actually hitting the character, then start applying your CC's (common sense).
I think you are just too inexperienced when in terms of the GF class. Just as i keep on reading people trying to convince others, that a GF cannot be a dps/burst dps class (which btw. is the dumbest thing i read so far, about the class), even though the specs are : Conqueror - BURST DPS, That not so great Protector thing - MEATSHIELD, And Tactician as - UTILITY. Are you even playing as a GF???
There is not a single class with equal items, that a GF can possibly kill in a single rotation. Other classes can -> D-O-D-G-E <- PLUS, they have several other ways to escape a GF. Go ahead and one shot a HR. Post the video right here, into this thread please. Or a TR, go 1on1 against a TR, post how you 1 shot the TR here, too please. A GF on the other hand, can get 1 shotted by several classes or burned down with heavy hitting dots, kited into oblivion etc.
Like i said, know what you are talking about, before actually making these silly assumptions and giving wrong suggestions. It makes you look a little silly, if people who actually know what they are talking about, chime in to say what's really up and how it's done properly.
Have a good evening, though.
Sir, we're hardly "few".
It doesn't take a brain surgeon to see that a single Sabo TR which uses 7 Bloodbaths in under 3 minutes to single handedly defeat two BiS fighters each with over 50k HP -- is plain wrong. Nor does it take as much brain power to see an Executioner starting off the match with a 36k First-Strike Shocking Execution + bugged 36k SoD... and then immediately allowed to use a slightly lesser hitting version -- is plain wrong.
Contrary to what many other players think, there are actually many good TRs who don't believe in the bogus pseudo-logic that invites flame wars. The forums represent only a small part of the entire PvP population.
However, I cannot say that the TR players in these forums do not have good reason to turn so defensive. In these forums, sir, there are people who would simply see us TRs ruined and utterly destroyed for whatever petty grudge they hold, and everyday there is a gigantic, huge pile of truths mixed in with fiction. There are justified nerf requests being mixed in with straight-up lies, misinformation, intentional slandering out of malice. So many people who call out for nerfs to our class do not really understand why certain things are happening. Without joking, if the devs grant every nerf wish people cry out, what's left of the TRs in PvP are simply individually skinnedd red-cap mobs. That's what some people would have us become, sir.
TRs in games receive hate mails and curse-tells from people just because they've played a TR. Even when they are not using any of the "OP stuff" mentioned in these boards, people who lose simply bunch up all TRs into one, false image and then actually curse and swear at us for simply playing this game as a certain class. Some people say that they kick TRs in PvE just because they hate the class in pvP. In these boards some of the so-called "opinion leaders" shamelessly propagate false information and lies about our class.
Whenever something like this happens, sir, some TRs lash out in anger. As a result, every TR in this forum is now just as much angry -- even the ones that have at first treated nerf calls and balance discussions with respect. People don't listen to us, sir. They tell us everything we try to explain is simply a lie, because we're TRs ourselves, we must be lying, and whatever we try to reason or logic with is simply a sham, we're only trying to "protect broken TRs"... they don't even listen to any explanations on how certain mechanics operate or how you can beat it. According to them, we're all liars, sir.
At this point there has simply been so much animosity and simply blind range and hatred tossed around amongst each other, that often threads like these lose all function and are turned useless.
...so that being said, sir, as a TR player since forever, devoted to the tricks and trades of the class in terms of combat, I give you my answer to your opinion on your comment in where you said "even with out steath, defensive mechnism of the TR is already on a high lvl among the rest of the class".
To this, I will simply reply, sir, "Try it yourself, go up to lv60 PvP and see how far you go with just dodges, deflect and ITC". If a little explanation is due;
(a) chance-based mechanics are supplementary at best. nobody builds up their combat plan upon the element of luck.
(b) contrary to what some people say, average deflection rate of Scoundrels rarely, if ever, surpass 50%
(c) sabos and execs usually dump the stats that contribute to deflect. They average in around 25~30%
I'll leave it up to you judge whether this is ture, or "another lie and ruse to protect broken stuff". The choice is yours to make, sir.
again and again nerf TR surviability deflect severity to 50% , ITC , dodges and stealth, and HAVE FUN. he didnt imply that other classes should have 1 shot button, he implied that TR should be squishy as hell.
And he's right. I agree that TR needs a tone down, but many of teh stuff people are asking in here are just too much, and would destroy the class.
If I may remind you all, the reason why TRs sucked so much for so long is exactly because of nerf threads, the devs nerfed everything about them, and what was left? just a sad little class with not much else to do, besides stay in the shadows and throw things at others. So excuse us if we don't thrust those same people once again in being able to ask for a balanced class, because we won't.
Haha, was just looking at that thinking the same thing. Must be hard to TAB shield, have 40-50k HP and nuke from range.
Wait what?
tell me what problem will the TR have oneshotting people, if the ITC, deflect severity , dodges are nerfed and leave the 2s revea ? tell me how this will affect his oneshot habbit?l
TRs are supposed to be a nimble and mobile class, so 3 dodges are needed. we had 2 before and it was never enough, we were one of the slowest classes.
dude tr was never a weak class in pvp....
mirrorballs has no clue what he is talking about half the time, he doesnt even know that a tr is out of itc for less than 9 sec that can be covered with dodges/BB, BB that can reset all the cds anyway and so on!
Just cause you have no clue what your class does, doesnt mean that requested fixes arent justified!
Sir, deflection is not what's causing the TR's survivability. As a matter of fact it's not even all TRs which have that amount of survivability. It's basically ITC, and therefore, basically Master Infiltrators.
In mod5, the devs first sought to disencourage permastealth and force the TRs into more active combat by implementing stealth depletion with at-wills. Then, after lauch, they added in another "2 second revelation" mechanic to give the victims of TRs a chance to retaliate.
THE REAL PROBLEM -- the current FotM TR builds, MI Saboteuers and Executioners, each have methods which circumvent the above implements the devs placed.
Sabo MIs
- permastealth is even easier for Sabos = huge damage
- permastealth is even easier for Sabos = almost no visible opening for others enemies nearby
- Sabos have a way to force dazes almost as long as Scoundrels, so the "2s revelation" made null and void
- Sabos also have a way to circumvent the "shortened stealth" through their own feats, so stealth depletion meaningless
- in the rare, rare cases they are caught with their pants down = ITC
- whenever in need of more firepower, abnormal rate of daily spamming through abnormal rate of AP gain
Exec MIs
- 1-shot anything with bugged feats and poorly designed features
- that "1-shotgun", is actually double barrel = double SE when 1st one kills
- that "1-shotgun", is actually rapid load = abnormal rate of AP gain through OP artifacts
- has a side-arm that also kills, called Lashing Blades, also courtesy of bugged feats and poor design
- after you shoot and your position is blown = ITC
In both cases they simply, completely ignore the balance attempts. Deflection has nothing to do with their survivability, sir. Dodges and deflections are nothing but basic tools which have always existed. Even when the dodge is reverted to before, these MIs don't really need to use more than 2 at a time because they already have ITC up and available in most cases.
What's making them so difficult to bring down is all on ITC sir. None of what you suggest is going to change anything for these TR types that topple the game balance. What it does, sir, is simply obliterate OTHER TRs which have nothing in common with these MI Sabo/Execs. Specifically speaking, it's a death sentence to all Whisperknives when people start demanding nerfs on deflection or dodges because it's us WKs that will suffer, not the MIs.
Like said, sir, MI Sabos and Execs don't even use deflection in the first place. About 70% of their killing power comes from broken-as-hell AP generation items which are OP for ALL classes, btw, and the rest 30% comes from their own broken feats and designs such as piercing damage, no-brainer permastealthing, or 40k+ attacks. 80% of their untouchability comes from ITC alone, sir.
OTOH, WKs don't have ITC. We only have VP, which is a 1-time CC breaker, and for some reason bugged so that it can't even break out of Ray of Frost or Trapper roots. In our case, sir, we can do many of what the MIs can do, but we're also exactly what you say the TRs should be. We're squishy. A well timed CC means the death of us. The super-long dazes of WK scoundrels don't mean anything in domination where an existence of a 3rd man will render useless the strengths of the WK. We die a lot, sir. Imagine a MI TR that doesn't have Shocking Execution and ITC. That's us, sir.
...and the changes you are demanding, again, they aren't going to do anything against all them MIs, sir, because they don't rely on those.
But we do, sir.
Don't get me wrong -- I don't object to your general premise, sir. But your target, and the method, is wrong.
You're probably confusing me with someone else, sir. Because I haven's said or implied any of what you claim about me in the above. I'm actually the person in this thread nuancing a need for a balance/nerf to ITC, sir.
I'm sorry if I write too much, and it may become hard to understand. I'll try to keep things short and to the point, sir.
only if you stop with the "sir" thing, it is a SE for my brain!
Would you like me to demonstrate, then? A single rotation involving Bullcharge, Crescendo, Flourish, and Anvil can literally take out anybody, especially at even GS.
The only saving grace from this is getting a lucky deflect on Bullcharge, or building high enough Control Resist to escape.
A geared GF with Conquerer, P. Vorpal, and proper stats can certainly 1 rotation anybody.
Crush is normally the one (from what I have seen) who deals with balance issues. Maybe there are others that flag things to do but from what I have seen its been Crush.
Crush tweeted this a few days ago: https://twitter.com/CrypticGMC/status/556164890356764673
'What's that? The feature I have been working on for nearly 3 months solid is nearing completion? Oh joy of joys! Hopefully players like it!"
3 months solid - means no game balance for the last three months.
Given that the Paladin is announced today, its probably been that.... So he has spent his time working on a new class instead of balancing the existing ones.
Also now that lvl cap will be 70 as well as more feats/class features ETC to use. Balance will be a whole new game and we can basically take ALOT of whats going on right now and throw it out the window.
I just hope they dont make artifact equipment obsolete, ALOT of player will be PISSED.
Terribly sorry sir. That should have been "without ITC". For some reason I wrote it wrong in the prior post.
Keep going, sir, and post us the pics when u do reach 60
Also, sir, I do not see the relevancy of using pve sets. I could also get my deflect up higher if I give up my other stats, but that would bring me gradually under 30k HP and turn myself into a PvE build as well. Were we not talking about PvP, sir? Do u PvP in your PvE set sir?
Can I ask for a pic of your stats sir? Ill need to see what kind of stat distribution we're talking about. Because what you're saying is a bit hard to believe.
Sir, I've actually given this some more thought into theorycrafting. I've started with my own case into how the stats work out. Hence, in my case:
Due to a variety of weighting pros and cons I've actually decided to choose human to try and make use for three extra feats, and I've got only 2 points into the deflection feat, and a full 5/5 to the t1 of the Scoundrel, which gives me 2.5% extra. Being a WK I don't have access to the 3% MI feat.
So, naked without gear, I stand at 33.5% deflection. This means the entire gear gives an extra of 10.5%. I don't even have any Silveries into it because currently, at 2662 deflection the diminishing returns is so miserably high, that it's about worthless. All of the defense slots went to rads for more HP.
So, at base, naked level, we can break it down like this.
From this we can see all of the deflect related boons provide 3% extra.
In your case, you said you are a Executioner that gets 43% deflection without any investment into DEX/CHA and just PvE suit. From this, we can probably suppose that you are a halfling, a MI, and have 3 points into the deflect feat. So I've grown curious how much stats it would take for an Executioner, with a PvP suit this time, to have a 43% deflection. Assuming this PvP suit is Profound Scoundrel, and also does not have any Silveries..
43 = 3(race) + 3(class feature) + 3(feat) + 5(base) + 10(gear) + 3(boons) + 14(stats) +2(campfire)
Of the above 14 DEX+CHA points, 2 is provided free at lv30 and 60...
So, for an Executioner or Sabo to achieve 43% without any extra investment into DEX/CHA stats with PvP gear you would need the following:
...I think 5 is by itself a stretch -- it would probably need a max DEX/CHA roll of something like 16/14, so with the +2 initial bonuses it might be done.. but probably will result in STR, CON and INT roll. Will probably have to check the dice roll screen to see how it actually rolls. The pressure of low HP is going to effect deeply, and pure damage output would also might not be optimal.
I really think it's safe to say Sabos and Execs have it between 30~40%, sir. I do remember keltz0r having only 22% or so (or maybe lower...) but that was a really, really long time ago when DEX didn't give any deflect bonuses.
TL;DR;sirs,
If you want a Sabo or an Executioner to have around 40% deflection, without sacrificing your defense slots in armor to Silveries, or making stat investments to DEX and CHA... you need to roll for a maximum possible DEX+CHA at character creation, which exceeds a total of 30
I guess we can summarize it this way, sir. It could be possible for a MI to just settle for a HP amount much lower than 40k, but IMO anything lower than 40k for any player/class in PvP works only under a certain level of opponents... but I admit this perception could be a skewed one due to having to survive the fights without any nifty ITC for such a long time.
The 'main', sir.
Although, I saw your other post only after I've posted the one above. 13 CON and 27 DEX explains pretty much everything. (It also confirms the theorycrafting that one needs a BIG initial DEX+CHA stat sum, as well)
In my case, even at 19 CON it took me a lot of radiants and artifacts to be able to add in 5k more HP to reach the 40k mark, but if you don't value HP that much (if it is an Executioner, which self-discipline his code/mode of action strictly), I can see how lower HP can work out for you, sir.
I think what would be more likely is Sentinels picking up Executioner's Style and Battle Awareness on top of Disciple of War. Further power loading (rec and arpen to power), IBS would hit even harder at the end of the DS-CaGI rotation, plus Savage Advance in there would reduce the cooldowns on DS and CAGI.
I know that is what I'd do with my GWF. Maintain the superior tankiness of the Sentinel while greatly enhancing its damage output.
Yeah, you are probably correct. I didn't even think about Executioners getting more daze and stealth. PVP would be traumatic.
Mainly because of this rubbish: http://i.imgur.com/SilqLwu.jpg
And I mean I know people will say "Yeah we know TR is broken" But its so broken that people avoid pvp... and they don't hotfix this...?