Well most ppl imo that enjoys the PVE more then PVP is newer players, there are no reason what so ever for someone that played over a year to still do T2 dungeons that has been here since day 1 and VT or MC is also boring and old (and pointless to new gear) And tiamat dsnt require more then 10k gs.
GWF: Intimidation: Lacking any grace or skill in its usage, this literally allows a GWF to output the single target burst of a CW in a long range aoe. If this were merely single target, that damage would be fine as it would involve the GWF having to use skill and maneuvering to get into proper range. Even worse, these high damage abilities are within the *tank* tree of the GWF.
Come and get it literally has no effective windup leaving little chance of skillfully dodging it, rather spamming dodges and hoping that the GWF uses it and misses. Daring Shout is the same in this vein as it's purely instant damage with no telegraphing and no chance of a skillful dodge. Either these abilities need a longer, telegraphed windup, or the damage needs to be flat out further toned down, with the threat generation modifier tweaked to retain PVE effectiveness.
I have nothing against the standard Takedown, Frontline/flourish, IBS builds, however. Those are extremely balanced in terms of gameplay.
Orly now?
Intimidation is long range AoE? False! DS has 20' range and CaGI 30'. That's short-medium range for you.
Daring Shout instant damage? False! The animation is as long as IBS.
And they don't need longer windup with the stun mechanics GWF received for mod 4. Although, I agree that the damage should be based on weapon damage instead of power. But that's not a thing you'd get as standalone. Other powers and mechanics have to be reworked a great deal first.
And of course you have nothing against takedown + fls + ibs,
If this causes long term problems in PvE, then they can rebuff Shard of the Avalanche (not to the previous ridiculous levels, but reasonable), which I have no problems with considering the finesse required to effectively use it in PvP.
Another point to address is the bunnyhop Ray of Frost spam, easily addressed by placing a .15 sec timer into casting it before chill/damage ticks are triggered to prevent this.
Never, ever, do this. Jump casting is a CW's bread n butter.
Second...can we just all realise once and for all that neverwinter is NOT A PVP GAME. The classes function perfectly in PVE.
I respect your opinion on the subject, however, I do believe TR invisibility is more beneficial for pvp than pve.
Highest single target damage + smoke bomb (one of the best crowd control) + long time invisible
For a long time, many dungeon runs did not include a TR because other classes were better suited for dungeons.
GF's have not been *needed* in dungeons for a long time.
My personal opinion is cryptic is unable or unwilling to "balance" classes in pve and pvp.
TR's were created because kids enjoy playing invisible characters because its fun and easy when enemies cant see you.
CW's were created because pve has huge mobs.
GF was created because some players want to play a tank, even if a tank is not needed.
GWF is traditional fighter class, but Cryptic messed up and did not give them a dodge and/or small shield.
passive damage is too easy and boring way to fight.
Slowly killing the enemy by poison (DoT) may be effective in real life, but in a game it's not satisfying to know that the poison did most of the work for you. All you do is prick the enemy with a blade or arrow/dart and he eventually dies. It's too easy.
Would be ok in foundry missions in which the story is most important (press f to poison enemy and story will continue).
In an action combat game, passive damage is bad idea because combat requires less action to kill mob.
game becomes less action combat.
Those are burst radii, emanating from the GWF in all directions. By contrast, for CWs, Oppressive Force (the daily) is a 25' burst and Steal Time (the encounter) is a 30' burst, while Icy Terrain covers 15'. As AoE effects go, CaGI is on par with or better than those. Ice Storm is bigger, at a 40' burst, but no one uses that much. A GWF can basically blast pretty much everyone on a node with a huge amount of damage, and it can be hard to avoid if you're focusing on something else. FLS itself isn't exactly the easiest thing around to dodge either.
Let's not make this into a GWF vs CW fight, shall we? We all know whenever CWs open their mouths that GWF will get nerfed. Were it justified or not.
All I'm commenting is OP's concept of length. There are long range skills that can reach for 80' and he's counting DS/CaGI as long range attacks? Ok, w/e.
And FLS is easy to deflect and does silly damage. Not to mention that abysmal cooldown. Oddly, it's still the best encounter to slot for Sentinel GWFs among CaGi/DS which tells more than words what situation GWF is in.
icy rays can be dodged like hr roots...it's possible but hardly feasable
I've yet to ever fully dodge an icy rays. Even at max range, timing it perfectly so that I'm still in the *middle* of the dodge animation when it hits, I'll receive damage and become rooted, even during the ending immunity frames.
Yes, they have burst damage, but is it more than any of the other classes? Let's say I'm using Bull Charge, Griffon's Wrath, and Anvil of Doom. Against a hunter or rogue, it is guaranteed that one of those will be deflected, meaning I cannot land my AoD. I will not take away more than 50% of their HP, even if I'm lucky.
When fighting against a CW, even if I land all 5 hits, I will not be able to take away more than 60% HP because of their shield. Furthermore, I have to wait at least 9 seconds before I can land a full rotation again, while a CW has DoTs and can damage me through my shield.
Against a DC, I might as well go AFK. Astral shield+break the spirit = invincible.
GWFs have huge damage, and can heal while in unstoppable. In addition, I cannot prone/damage them while they are sprinting.
Even against a SW, I am weak. They can prone, heal, and do massive DoTs, which I can only do one of.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
edited January 2015
I'm not sure if people aware or not, but the pircing damage on SoD is not actually bypass defense and such, it's only made so the mitigation will not be counted twice.
Damage for SoD summed after calculating mitigation, so applying it again for SoD will be like tax double dipping.
For example if someone attacked for 1k damage and has 25% mitigation, the damage will be 750 and SoD 375 (half after applying mitigation and not 500), if the piercing damage removed it will be 281 and the mitigation applied twice.
It's a matter of semantics, it can be non pricing but calculated before mitigation so you will have
1000 original hit -> 25% mitigation -> 750 hp removal
And then:
500 SoD -> 25% mitigation -> 375 hp removal.
Exactly same result as piercing.
Yes, they have burst damage, but is it more than any of the other classes? Let's say I'm using Bull Charge, Griffon's Wrath, and Anvil of Doom. Against a hunter or rogue, it is guaranteed that one of those will be deflected, meaning I cannot land my AoD. I will not take away more than 50% of their HP, even if I'm lucky.
When fighting against a CW, even if I land all 5 hits, I will not be able to take away more than 60% HP because of their shield. Furthermore, I have to wait at least 9 seconds before I can land a full rotation again, while a CW has DoTs and can damage me through my shield.
Against a DC, I might as well go AFK. Astral shield+break the spirit = invincible.
GWFs have huge damage, and can heal while in unstoppable. In addition, I cannot prone/damage them while they are sprinting.
Even against a SW, I am weak. They can prone, heal, and do massive DoTs, which I can only do one of.
Have you considered swordmaster and crescendo? In any case, the only proposed nerf would be the damage threshold of Anvil being 30% instead of 40%. I've seen GF's easily drop people below 40% in 1 rotation not including anvil. Requiring just a little bit more isn't a stretch considering the CC ignore on Blocking.
Also, I have addressed the CW tankiness with the OP. This is a gamewide class tuning in terms of PvP balance. Consideration was given to every class at every time.
I have also addressed the DC. The main killer of a GF at this point is sunburst ignoring the shield block. I have also addressed toning down the empowered astral shield.
GWF's damage tied into Intimidation is being addressed. The classic Takedown/IBS combos need some skillful maneuvering on the part of the GWF to land, but you're still able to block both if prudent. In any case, a bullcharge prior to unstoppable still prevents them from using unstoppable due to the prone.
Also, you can still block a good deal of SW damage. If you're iron vanguard, you have a quick, long range stun with Frontline Surge. If Swordmaster, you have the option of combos involving either crescendo, flourish, or bullcharge.
Have you considered swordmaster and crescendo? In any case, the only proposed nerf would be the damage threshold of Anvil being 30% instead of 40%. I've seen GF's easily drop people below 40% in 1 rotation not including anvil. Requiring just a little bit more isn't a stretch considering the CC ignore on Blocking.
Also, I have addressed the CW tankiness with the OP. This is a gamewide class tuning in terms of PvP balance. Consideration was given to every class at every time.
I have also addressed the DC. The main killer of a GF at this point is sunburst ignoring the shield block. I have also addressed toning down the empowered astral shield.
GWF's damage tied into Intimidation is being addressed. The classic Takedown/IBS combos need some skillful maneuvering on the part of the GWF to land, but you're still able to block both if prudent. In any case, a bullcharge prior to unstoppable still prevents them from using unstoppable due to the prone.
Also, you can still block a good deal of SW damage. If you're iron vanguard, you have a quick, long range stun with Frontline Surge. If Swordmaster, you have the option of combos involving either crescendo, flourish, or bullcharge.
Okay, then. What was your reasoning for calling a GF overpowerer?
And when a GF takes an enemy down to 40% HP without Anvil of Doom, the enemy is almost certainly 4k GS lower.
GF
The Burst damage capable on a pure tank class is Overpowered. It's not exactly balanced to have the only class capable of near perfect CC resist to be able to 1 rotation people. The only functional fix for this would be to lower the threshold for bonus anvil damage from 40% to 30%. This would leave the CC and utilities of a GF largely intact, but force Damage GF's to stay an extra rotation in terms of killing somebody solo. Anybody if caught, should still suffer the lockdown they provide as they are the least mobile of classes, but not die within a single rotation. The Prones also need to be subject to control resist.
[/COLOR]
^^^^
First the minors:
1:There is not such a thing as a "pure" tank in NW.You are an experienced player yet you use phraseology of WoW newcomer.
If Gf was pure tank he would not die by one hit by a leather wear class.Ore oneshotted by Garakas.
2.Perfect CC resist?Dammn.. ;P Block covers only 180 degrees and only for 8 secs.Even while blocking GF can controlled by CW freezes,TR dazes , and some times entagling force goes through block.
Hell even in Villain's menace i was controlled by a pillar stalker toon AKA CW.
3. One rotation people?At same gs?IMPOSSIBLE.Do't use phrases coming out directly form mod3.At that period GF Conq was able to oneshot slightly less geared toons.But since then Gf damage remained the same,while with the new gear other classes reached 40-45k hp and 40-45% DR.Not to mention ther ubertanky CWs with shield on tab that are more tankier than 25k Gs GWF Sentinels.
No GF can oneshot a high-bis geared toon anymore.Hp and Dr of other classes skyrocketed through artifacts and arti gear.
'
4.You have problem with one rotation?As proved before it is not possible anymore.Other classes are able to kill in half rotaion or even with one freakin encounter.
So from one point you want GFs to need at least two rotations to kill a toon,while other classes can kill by one (1) encounter.
And as you cleared later in one that rotation you include the Gf dailies.........
I find quite amusing that while Gf is under extinction from high pvp,obviously cause it underperforms.Yet some people treat him as a threat like we are in mod1 and stalwart bulwark era.
Gf lucks dot damage.In current meta that means he cannot use effectively the main characteristic of it:Glyphs.
You see dear DC we do not have this wonderfull t4 feat of yours "Fire of the gods" to just stand still and bleed one opponent to death.Great skill.Or Cw dots and procs.Or GWF blurps and shouts with aoe.Or disheartening strike etc etc.....
Gf is severely punished by the introduction of piercing damage in NW.He suffers the most.Since his "strong" (?) point is defence.Exactly what piercing makes useless.
GF is severelly punished by the change that now is more observant in dodges of other classes.Untill mod3 dodges were dodges.You just moved your toon.Since then dodges provide damage immunity.This is absurd.We are not F! pilots to count the miliseconds in ordert to know where the dodge imunity ends and not waste our porecious encounters.
Even if we did lag takes care for our opponents. "dodged"
Gf damage requires skill and aiming.AoD and GW do not autolock like 90% of NW classes powers.You have to touch the enemy toon in order to hit them.In current meta with dodge immunity and high deflect that is nearly impossible.
Deflect "hidden" characteristic the cc resist harms specially the Gfs ,since they luck deflect themselves ,and as said previously ,Gf in order to hit something must cc it first.Difficult in current meta.
Gf remains the slowest class in a battle field dominated by extreme ranges (CWs) and lighting fast activated powers.(HRs,TRs GWFs)
Gf animations are so slow that if two toons start encouters together,the enemy toon will outtime the Gf and cc/damage him.
Gf att wills are slow ,Flourish is slow,Crescendo is slow etc...
Gf main survival characteristic-block-is bugged since mod3.Immediatelly after Gf is cced ,after cc ends ,block remains unused for extra 1-3 secs while Gf is no longer controlled.That means death.=cc again.
Blue glyph was changed and nerfed by the devs.But blue glyph was extremey usefull to Gfs.While the red and the black/green that the ranged classes use,never got a nerf.
Gf was nerfed in mod4.Kv nerfed,action point gain nerfed.
GF arti gear bonus is useless.Devs gaved to him extra defence when 99,999999% of the GF are touching hard diminishing returns.
While HR got 250arm pen/power.lol
Gf needs buffs in his survivability and damge.Aod needs actually a damage buff to 50% not a nerf.Also an autolock.We had enough of the ranged classes autolock and bunnyjumping while thier phasers go through dom stairs and rocks.
From 0.20 to 2.19 GF used 15 encounters and dailies in total and he was able to normally hit the Tr two! (2!) times.
Deflect."dodged","immune" ......And you think GF is op???????
That is why they are only 11 (eleven) Gfs in first 50 pages?cause he is op?Give us a break bro.
Neverwinter has one of the best combat systems ever. Its what still keeps me here. However, over time the devs have brought a certain new paradigm completely making said combat system redundant. It goes something like this: " If I blast 10 clicks away from you I fully expect you to take all the damage ". Here's my short list of things in need of fixing:
- no auto-proc free damage. Want to take someone down - aim and attack
- no more than 1 auto crit per fight
- no piercing damage or remove tanks from the game so we dont roll them and feel frustration later
- no 'Jacks of all trade'. Take your pick: damage or control, damage or damage resistance, damage or speed..you get the point yes ?
- no daily spam. Those abilities are the new at-wills and that aint right
- every cc respects cc resistance ( tenacity )
- Sprint needs to get as reliable as dodge when timely used. Currently its not, guard is slow as well
Those are the basics, if they are addressed we can move from there and actually have a real game. What we have now is an exploit sim
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
You talk due to personal experience or...?
The fact you met a destro in PvP and it looked strong to you, might very well mean that you are weaker. Not that the build is anywhere balanced for PvP.
Cause imho it is not.
Unless you get full DP stacks, you deal less damage than TR, HR, CW, SW, DPS DC.
Even if you gear it to be tanky with full PBI set, stack HP, stack deflection, you are still squishy against all the piercing damage and high DPS burst flying around. So you need to kill fast. And you really can't cause you have to build up stacks of capstone vs dodging and moving enemies, wasting time.
You can make it viable the way i made my instigator viable but you are underpowered compared to BiS builds like intimidation sentinels and other classes' PvP builds. And whenever you meet one, you realize the gap that there is currently between a destroyer in PvP and the BiS intimidation build.
Or a insti build and a intimidation build.
Now, destroyer in its core mechanics is aimed at PvE. If you have a bit of in-depth knowledge of the class, you know it. Skilled players like Squishy or other skilled GWF can gear it up enough and use it well enough to make it viable in PvP but imho it's too slow at building up damage and no matter how much you gear it up, it does not have enough tools to survive long enough vs CWs or TRs or HRs of the same gear level.
For example, even going unstoppable often, the 30% DR is quite useless in PvP compared to 80% from Aegis. Your base damage is not that high without stacks. If you use PF to build the 10 stacks faster you allow CWs and SWs to evade more.
Now if even intimidation sentinels get burnt down quite fast by CWs at 45k-50k Hp and rely on their buffed unstoppable to tank that bit more to kill the enemy with intimidation, i don't think a destroyer will last that long to build his stacks.
PvP nowadays is made by fast fights and high DPS burst. Destro is made for PvE. Each and every mechanic is perfect for PvE and struggles to find utility in current PvP. I explained it also in a Insti vs Destro thread in the barracks.
What he said ^^
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
TSUOKOSHIN is pretty right about Destroyers: its quite viable for PVP, besides the small tweaks the GWF needs, destroyer is quite viable for PVP.
i doubt any of you builded a DPS DESTRO GWF FOR PVP and really tried it out in PVP.
but a destro GWF in a premade is outshined by the GWF intimidation cause, cagi/daring shout are the only things that can touch a TR.
but in matter of playin a Destroyer he is not that pitifull as you belive..
he underperforms because of bugged things like tsuokoshin in first post stated.
so the only thing Destro needs it's a Roar with a Daze of 2 seconds, and Tenacity and CC immunity effects should work against DAZE.
in matter of the mechanics it has it's good.
i will repeat again and again
Sentinel intimidation: 350% out of weapon damage, instead of 35% out of max damage.
Powerfull challenge : should grant only 35% threat. and the 15% damage should be moved to base damage.
Daring Shout and Cagi should have 2-3 seconds shorter.
Daring Shout and Cagi Should buff the allies too.
Destroyer : Roar with Daze.
Instigator needs the rework, he needs tankyness and utility. he has the DPS.
Unstopable should be changed from 8%-16% temporary hitpoints to 28%-46% temporary hitpoints
where this temporary hitpoints it's affected by healing depression. with the same determination gain it has right now.
Slam should deal more damage.
Flourish Faster Casting
spining strike should work as the spining strike of mobs from epic lostmauth.
Unstopable should remove the penalty on at wills.
FIX other classes broken feats/encounters and nerf TR surviability and he can keep his damage, but needs a fix on those broken feats.
it's easy peazy, but only if there is a DEV would dedicat only 2-3 days of his lifetime to only do some changes and testing with players from the game. but hell no ... they probably like the TRAFFIC the forum gets.
BUILDING A TANKY DESTROYER? u probably are dreaming guys.
so the only thing Destro needs it's a Roar with a Daze of 2 seconds, and Tenacity and CC immunity effects should work against DAZE.
in matter of the mechanics it has it's good.
And would you say Roar dazing 2 sec with a 6/7s cooldown is not a HUGE difference in PvP? Ranged low CD daze allowing you to interrupt CC the enemy works both offensive and defensive so it's not "just" a change, it's a foundamental change and what made destroyer viable in PvP in the past. During module 1 (if i recall well) i faced a few time a destro from Lemonade Stand and he was quite skilled at sprinting out of range, rorar root, rotate, sprint out of range, evade 6/7s and get back to his rotation.
During module 3 it was not just unstoppable but also the ability to stun the enemy every 6/7 seconds that allowed destroyers to survive a whole lot more.
Never said Destro does not have its good. But right now the very same mechanics of Destroyer are the opposite of what is requested in PvP.
You need to build stacks during unstoppable. Which means you can either stun-->go unstoppable-->build stacks fast or you waste some unstoppable chasing the enemy and struggle at building stacks. So what i would do is get damage sprinting, wait to activate unstoppable, get in range, FLS-->TD going unstoppable and building stacks, IBS during unstoppable at full stacks for big nuke.
But you need quite high GS to store HP to tank that much, plus your executioner's style gives its best when the enemy is at low HP, which is very good for Boss fights, but quite 'bad' for PvP where you can actually waste it on squishy toons you can kill in 1 rotation or so, and takes too much to power up against tank builds/ toons.
Also Destroyer's purpose contraddicts itself cause it requires you to build stacks during unstoppable (at-wills) but also boosts encounters during unstoppable. So in PvE it's ok, you go unstoppable often thanks to lifesteal and mobs and can alternate stacks build-up and encounter boost, for example. But in PvP you are pretty much forced to use it to build up stacks.
All in all Destro is currently, i believe, better than insti pretty much cause faster determination after buffs+ stacks reduction+more useful feats can beat overall Instigator tree even if Instigator Vengeance is a capstone much, much better suited for PvP than destroyer's purpose.
But i think still behind intimidation builds overall.
With Roar dazing the enemy it would be a whole different story obviously, imho, in PvP. Ranged CC every 6 seconds that prevents enemies from using their dodges or can interrupt them? It is a big boost to both survivability and offensive capabilities.
Instigator DPS is quite ok but it needs a rework to add feats really useful in place of the many useless ones, and a tankyness boost to make it a real hybrid between a sentinel survivability and a destroyer survivability.
If you give roar daze to destros who have CD reduction on the power, to Instigator you must give at least:
- faster determination gain buffing, let's say, steadfast determination through feat, so that it makes the Insti overall go unstoppable as fast as a destroyer. Can in alternative make it directly through capstone with a 50% boost on determination gain
- Make nimble runner increase deflection by 40% so sprint becomes more like a proper dodge, making it so you get very high deflection but only during sprint. Quite fair considering it would sill not be a proper dodge and sprint must be used for gap closing too
- CD reduction of 25% on FLS similar to what you have for destroyers. Make it a tier 4 feat, replacing on of the useless t4 feats. FLS would be now on a 13s cooldown which is fair. Considering FLS gets deflected a lot it's not OP, allows the Insti to CC more, deflect more and go unstoppable more but with the usual 30% DR so all in all you increase survivability to a half-tank level but not to the point of making it OP and still linked by a huge chunck to sprint dodge and FLS aiming/ timing.
Instigators need to take hits to up their capstone. So you must give them tools to time their sprint in order to minimize the damage if they are skilled. Or else it's all up to the enemy ability to deliver few big hits and avoid spamming at-wills. And i don't think linking a capstone ENTIRELY to what the enemy does, is balanced.
Plus sprint should get as responsive as a dodge, with actual immunity frames. Right now, as pointed out many, many times, it has a gap at start during which you can still get CCed.
I can think about something like this.
Still you would have the overall piercing damage/ unmitigated damage issue which makes the whole class survivability quite useless since DR is completely ignored. So every form of piercing damage/ DR ignoring damage should be greatly reduced or taken away and replaced with proper damage buffs on powers that actually require aiming and timing.
Right now very few players go for non-BiS builds that actually require you to aim and time your powers. PvP is by a large part made of easy-mode builds that require a very approximative and rough timing, no aiming and pretty much low dodging capabilities.
The game would be, and feel, much more balanced if combat and damage was actually determined by those 3 factors: aiming, timing, dodging. So you can land high DPS IF you time and aim well, instead of easily dispatching full DPS even if you use, for example, SE while the GWF is sprinting. Or use encounters while a GWF is in unstoppable. Or place DoTs 1 time and look at the target melting. Or spam piercing damage. Or use auto-aiming powers that then proc passive damage coming from feats.
Or roughly time AoE powers that require no aiming just to deal damage making a feat proc.
well u must be doing something wrong coz fighting saber is much tougher
then usual gwf
anyway i didnt say it would be balanced but take it as a chalange .
if u kill tr now it means u are realy good
mod 4 tr coulnt kill most classes not even sw if played good
true cat, but here is the thing, he could troll on the node if he wanted , but he didnt had the damage to kill them, that was mod4 TR.
but now it has the dmg, and it's really unbalanced, it's the only class that can fight multiple oponents and has 10% chance of dying.. its really easy to play a TR. and the only fix for TR right now it's to nerf his surviability, i dont mind being one shotted as long as i know i have bigger chances to beat him than 1% .
and probably every gwf can take the TR until they soulforge (that is if they dont SE from the begining) .
but the broken feats are too much .
and ty for the tip about the darks, silly me i was keeping r10 radiants on utility, LOL
true cat, but here is the thing, he could troll on the node if he wanted , but he didnt had the damage to kill them, that was mod4 TR.
but now it has the dmg, and it's really unbalanced, it's the only class that can fight multiple oponents and has 10% chance of dying.. its really easy to play a TR. and the only fix for TR right now it's to nerf his surviability, i dont mind being one shotted as long as i know i have bigger chances to beat him than 1% .
and probably every gwf can take the TR until they soulforge (that is if they dont SE from the begining) .
but the broken feats are too much .
and ty for the tip about the darks, silly me i was keeping r10 radiants on utility, LOL
They probably should remove TR 2 sec reveal..instead, make them unable to go stealth till their stealth bar is 100% full. Also using power from stealth will ensure them 100% crit but will reveal them and emptied their stealth bar to 0%...they need to wait till the stealth bar to regen back to 100% to be able to enter stealth again. All i see now in pvp is stealth warfare..i m getting dizzy trying to point at TR in that 2 sec frame..
Another alternative is make them move like old man in stealth..80% movement reduction while in stealth..i mean u cant be moving like a jet while u are sneaking rite?
Comments
At this state, PVP is bad and so is PVE
Intimidation is long range AoE? False! DS has 20' range and CaGI 30'. That's short-medium range for you.
Daring Shout instant damage? False! The animation is as long as IBS.
And they don't need longer windup with the stun mechanics GWF received for mod 4. Although, I agree that the damage should be based on weapon damage instead of power. But that's not a thing you'd get as standalone. Other powers and mechanics have to be reworked a great deal first.
And of course you have nothing against takedown + fls + ibs,
#BringBackShard
Simply not true -- IR can be dodged.
Never, ever, do this. Jump casting is a CW's bread n butter.
twitch.tv/ezracw | absolutegaming.guildportal.com
#BringBackShard | M5 CW Bug List | My M3 PvP Gameplay
its just luck when it happens, ofc not skill.
Do you seriously have a screenshot of your kill/death ratio or am i seeing things?
I respect your opinion on the subject, however, I do believe TR invisibility is more beneficial for pvp than pve.
Highest single target damage + smoke bomb (one of the best crowd control) + long time invisible
For a long time, many dungeon runs did not include a TR because other classes were better suited for dungeons.
GF's have not been *needed* in dungeons for a long time.
My personal opinion is cryptic is unable or unwilling to "balance" classes in pve and pvp.
TR's were created because kids enjoy playing invisible characters because its fun and easy when enemies cant see you.
CW's were created because pve has huge mobs.
GF was created because some players want to play a tank, even if a tank is not needed.
GWF is traditional fighter class, but Cryptic messed up and did not give them a dodge and/or small shield.
passive damage is too easy and boring way to fight.
Slowly killing the enemy by poison (DoT) may be effective in real life, but in a game it's not satisfying to know that the poison did most of the work for you. All you do is prick the enemy with a blade or arrow/dart and he eventually dies. It's too easy.
Would be ok in foundry missions in which the story is most important (press f to poison enemy and story will continue).
In an action combat game, passive damage is bad idea because combat requires less action to kill mob.
game becomes less action combat.
Let's not make this into a GWF vs CW fight, shall we? We all know whenever CWs open their mouths that GWF will get nerfed. Were it justified or not.
All I'm commenting is OP's concept of length. There are long range skills that can reach for 80' and he's counting DS/CaGI as long range attacks? Ok, w/e.
And FLS is easy to deflect and does silly damage. Not to mention that abysmal cooldown. Oddly, it's still the best encounter to slot for Sentinel GWFs among CaGi/DS which tells more than words what situation GWF is in.
I've yet to ever fully dodge an icy rays. Even at max range, timing it perfectly so that I'm still in the *middle* of the dodge animation when it hits, I'll receive damage and become rooted, even during the ending immunity frames.
Yes, they have burst damage, but is it more than any of the other classes? Let's say I'm using Bull Charge, Griffon's Wrath, and Anvil of Doom. Against a hunter or rogue, it is guaranteed that one of those will be deflected, meaning I cannot land my AoD. I will not take away more than 50% of their HP, even if I'm lucky.
When fighting against a CW, even if I land all 5 hits, I will not be able to take away more than 60% HP because of their shield. Furthermore, I have to wait at least 9 seconds before I can land a full rotation again, while a CW has DoTs and can damage me through my shield.
Against a DC, I might as well go AFK. Astral shield+break the spirit = invincible.
GWFs have huge damage, and can heal while in unstoppable. In addition, I cannot prone/damage them while they are sprinting.
Even against a SW, I am weak. They can prone, heal, and do massive DoTs, which I can only do one of.
Damage for SoD summed after calculating mitigation, so applying it again for SoD will be like tax double dipping.
For example if someone attacked for 1k damage and has 25% mitigation, the damage will be 750 and SoD 375 (half after applying mitigation and not 500), if the piercing damage removed it will be 281 and the mitigation applied twice.
It's a matter of semantics, it can be non pricing but calculated before mitigation so you will have
1000 original hit -> 25% mitigation -> 750 hp removal
And then:
500 SoD -> 25% mitigation -> 375 hp removal.
Exactly same result as piercing.
Have you considered swordmaster and crescendo? In any case, the only proposed nerf would be the damage threshold of Anvil being 30% instead of 40%. I've seen GF's easily drop people below 40% in 1 rotation not including anvil. Requiring just a little bit more isn't a stretch considering the CC ignore on Blocking.
Also, I have addressed the CW tankiness with the OP. This is a gamewide class tuning in terms of PvP balance. Consideration was given to every class at every time.
I have also addressed the DC. The main killer of a GF at this point is sunburst ignoring the shield block. I have also addressed toning down the empowered astral shield.
GWF's damage tied into Intimidation is being addressed. The classic Takedown/IBS combos need some skillful maneuvering on the part of the GWF to land, but you're still able to block both if prudent. In any case, a bullcharge prior to unstoppable still prevents them from using unstoppable due to the prone.
Also, you can still block a good deal of SW damage. If you're iron vanguard, you have a quick, long range stun with Frontline Surge. If Swordmaster, you have the option of combos involving either crescendo, flourish, or bullcharge.
Okay, then. What was your reasoning for calling a GF overpowerer?
And when a GF takes an enemy down to 40% HP without Anvil of Doom, the enemy is almost certainly 4k GS lower.
^^^^
First the minors:
1:There is not such a thing as a "pure" tank in NW.You are an experienced player yet you use phraseology of WoW newcomer.
If Gf was pure tank he would not die by one hit by a leather wear class.Ore oneshotted by Garakas.
2.Perfect CC resist?Dammn.. ;P Block covers only 180 degrees and only for 8 secs.Even while blocking GF can controlled by CW freezes,TR dazes , and some times entagling force goes through block.
Hell even in Villain's menace i was controlled by a pillar stalker toon AKA CW.
3. One rotation people?At same gs?IMPOSSIBLE.Do't use phrases coming out directly form mod3.At that period GF Conq was able to oneshot slightly less geared toons.But since then Gf damage remained the same,while with the new gear other classes reached 40-45k hp and 40-45% DR.Not to mention ther ubertanky CWs with shield on tab that are more tankier than 25k Gs GWF Sentinels.
No GF can oneshot a high-bis geared toon anymore.Hp and Dr of other classes skyrocketed through artifacts and arti gear.
'
4.You have problem with one rotation?As proved before it is not possible anymore.Other classes are able to kill in half rotaion or even with one freakin encounter.
So from one point you want GFs to need at least two rotations to kill a toon,while other classes can kill by one (1) encounter.
And as you cleared later in one that rotation you include the Gf dailies.........
I find quite amusing that while Gf is under extinction from high pvp,obviously cause it underperforms.Yet some people treat him as a threat like we are in mod1 and stalwart bulwark era.
Gf lucks dot damage.In current meta that means he cannot use effectively the main characteristic of it:Glyphs.
You see dear DC we do not have this wonderfull t4 feat of yours "Fire of the gods" to just stand still and bleed one opponent to death.Great skill.Or Cw dots and procs.Or GWF blurps and shouts with aoe.Or disheartening strike etc etc.....
Gf is severely punished by the introduction of piercing damage in NW.He suffers the most.Since his "strong" (?) point is defence.Exactly what piercing makes useless.
GF is severelly punished by the change that now is more observant in dodges of other classes.Untill mod3 dodges were dodges.You just moved your toon.Since then dodges provide damage immunity.This is absurd.We are not F! pilots to count the miliseconds in ordert to know where the dodge imunity ends and not waste our porecious encounters.
Even if we did lag takes care for our opponents. "dodged"
Gf damage requires skill and aiming.AoD and GW do not autolock like 90% of NW classes powers.You have to touch the enemy toon in order to hit them.In current meta with dodge immunity and high deflect that is nearly impossible.
Deflect "hidden" characteristic the cc resist harms specially the Gfs ,since they luck deflect themselves ,and as said previously ,Gf in order to hit something must cc it first.Difficult in current meta.
Gf remains the slowest class in a battle field dominated by extreme ranges (CWs) and lighting fast activated powers.(HRs,TRs GWFs)
Gf animations are so slow that if two toons start encouters together,the enemy toon will outtime the Gf and cc/damage him.
Gf att wills are slow ,Flourish is slow,Crescendo is slow etc...
Gf main survival characteristic-block-is bugged since mod3.Immediatelly after Gf is cced ,after cc ends ,block remains unused for extra 1-3 secs while Gf is no longer controlled.That means death.=cc again.
Blue glyph was changed and nerfed by the devs.But blue glyph was extremey usefull to Gfs.While the red and the black/green that the ranged classes use,never got a nerf.
Gf was nerfed in mod4.Kv nerfed,action point gain nerfed.
GF arti gear bonus is useless.Devs gaved to him extra defence when 99,999999% of the GF are touching hard diminishing returns.
While HR got 250arm pen/power.lol
Gf needs buffs in his survivability and damge.Aod needs actually a damage buff to 50% not a nerf.Also an autolock.We had enough of the ranged classes autolock and bunnyjumping while thier phasers go through dom stairs and rocks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s417x_vAaZU
From 0.20 to 2.19 GF used 15 encounters and dailies in total and he was able to normally hit the Tr two! (2!) times.
Deflect."dodged","immune" ......And you think GF is op???????
That is why they are only 11 (eleven) Gfs in first 50 pages?cause he is op?Give us a break bro.
- no auto-proc free damage. Want to take someone down - aim and attack
- no more than 1 auto crit per fight
- no piercing damage or remove tanks from the game so we dont roll them and feel frustration later
- no 'Jacks of all trade'. Take your pick: damage or control, damage or damage resistance, damage or speed..you get the point yes ?
- no daily spam. Those abilities are the new at-wills and that aint right
- every cc respects cc resistance ( tenacity )
- Sprint needs to get as reliable as dodge when timely used. Currently its not, guard is slow as well
Those are the basics, if they are addressed we can move from there and actually have a real game. What we have now is an exploit sim
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
The Tanky Destroyer is nothing new, its rather a thing of the past.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
What he said ^^
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
i doubt any of you builded a DPS DESTRO GWF FOR PVP and really tried it out in PVP.
but a destro GWF in a premade is outshined by the GWF intimidation cause, cagi/daring shout are the only things that can touch a TR.
but in matter of playin a Destroyer he is not that pitifull as you belive..
he underperforms because of bugged things like tsuokoshin in first post stated.
so the only thing Destro needs it's a Roar with a Daze of 2 seconds, and Tenacity and CC immunity effects should work against DAZE.
in matter of the mechanics it has it's good.
i will repeat again and again
Sentinel intimidation: 350% out of weapon damage, instead of 35% out of max damage.
Powerfull challenge : should grant only 35% threat. and the 15% damage should be moved to base damage.
Daring Shout and Cagi should have 2-3 seconds shorter.
Daring Shout and Cagi Should buff the allies too.
Destroyer : Roar with Daze.
Instigator needs the rework, he needs tankyness and utility. he has the DPS.
Unstopable should be changed from 8%-16% temporary hitpoints to 28%-46% temporary hitpoints
where this temporary hitpoints it's affected by healing depression. with the same determination gain it has right now.
Slam should deal more damage.
Flourish Faster Casting
spining strike should work as the spining strike of mobs from epic lostmauth.
Unstopable should remove the penalty on at wills.
FIX other classes broken feats/encounters and nerf TR surviability and he can keep his damage, but needs a fix on those broken feats.
it's easy peazy, but only if there is a DEV would dedicat only 2-3 days of his lifetime to only do some changes and testing with players from the game. but hell no ... they probably like the TRAFFIC the forum gets.
BUILDING A TANKY DESTROYER? u probably are dreaming guys.
And would you say Roar dazing 2 sec with a 6/7s cooldown is not a HUGE difference in PvP? Ranged low CD daze allowing you to interrupt CC the enemy works both offensive and defensive so it's not "just" a change, it's a foundamental change and what made destroyer viable in PvP in the past. During module 1 (if i recall well) i faced a few time a destro from Lemonade Stand and he was quite skilled at sprinting out of range, rorar root, rotate, sprint out of range, evade 6/7s and get back to his rotation.
During module 3 it was not just unstoppable but also the ability to stun the enemy every 6/7 seconds that allowed destroyers to survive a whole lot more.
Never said Destro does not have its good. But right now the very same mechanics of Destroyer are the opposite of what is requested in PvP.
You need to build stacks during unstoppable. Which means you can either stun-->go unstoppable-->build stacks fast or you waste some unstoppable chasing the enemy and struggle at building stacks. So what i would do is get damage sprinting, wait to activate unstoppable, get in range, FLS-->TD going unstoppable and building stacks, IBS during unstoppable at full stacks for big nuke.
But you need quite high GS to store HP to tank that much, plus your executioner's style gives its best when the enemy is at low HP, which is very good for Boss fights, but quite 'bad' for PvP where you can actually waste it on squishy toons you can kill in 1 rotation or so, and takes too much to power up against tank builds/ toons.
Also Destroyer's purpose contraddicts itself cause it requires you to build stacks during unstoppable (at-wills) but also boosts encounters during unstoppable. So in PvE it's ok, you go unstoppable often thanks to lifesteal and mobs and can alternate stacks build-up and encounter boost, for example. But in PvP you are pretty much forced to use it to build up stacks.
All in all Destro is currently, i believe, better than insti pretty much cause faster determination after buffs+ stacks reduction+more useful feats can beat overall Instigator tree even if Instigator Vengeance is a capstone much, much better suited for PvP than destroyer's purpose.
But i think still behind intimidation builds overall.
With Roar dazing the enemy it would be a whole different story obviously, imho, in PvP. Ranged CC every 6 seconds that prevents enemies from using their dodges or can interrupt them? It is a big boost to both survivability and offensive capabilities.
Instigator DPS is quite ok but it needs a rework to add feats really useful in place of the many useless ones, and a tankyness boost to make it a real hybrid between a sentinel survivability and a destroyer survivability.
If you give roar daze to destros who have CD reduction on the power, to Instigator you must give at least:
- faster determination gain buffing, let's say, steadfast determination through feat, so that it makes the Insti overall go unstoppable as fast as a destroyer. Can in alternative make it directly through capstone with a 50% boost on determination gain
- Make nimble runner increase deflection by 40% so sprint becomes more like a proper dodge, making it so you get very high deflection but only during sprint. Quite fair considering it would sill not be a proper dodge and sprint must be used for gap closing too
- CD reduction of 25% on FLS similar to what you have for destroyers. Make it a tier 4 feat, replacing on of the useless t4 feats. FLS would be now on a 13s cooldown which is fair. Considering FLS gets deflected a lot it's not OP, allows the Insti to CC more, deflect more and go unstoppable more but with the usual 30% DR so all in all you increase survivability to a half-tank level but not to the point of making it OP and still linked by a huge chunck to sprint dodge and FLS aiming/ timing.
Instigators need to take hits to up their capstone. So you must give them tools to time their sprint in order to minimize the damage if they are skilled. Or else it's all up to the enemy ability to deliver few big hits and avoid spamming at-wills. And i don't think linking a capstone ENTIRELY to what the enemy does, is balanced.
Plus sprint should get as responsive as a dodge, with actual immunity frames. Right now, as pointed out many, many times, it has a gap at start during which you can still get CCed.
I can think about something like this.
Still you would have the overall piercing damage/ unmitigated damage issue which makes the whole class survivability quite useless since DR is completely ignored. So every form of piercing damage/ DR ignoring damage should be greatly reduced or taken away and replaced with proper damage buffs on powers that actually require aiming and timing.
Right now very few players go for non-BiS builds that actually require you to aim and time your powers. PvP is by a large part made of easy-mode builds that require a very approximative and rough timing, no aiming and pretty much low dodging capabilities.
The game would be, and feel, much more balanced if combat and damage was actually determined by those 3 factors: aiming, timing, dodging. So you can land high DPS IF you time and aim well, instead of easily dispatching full DPS even if you use, for example, SE while the GWF is sprinting. Or use encounters while a GWF is in unstoppable. Or place DoTs 1 time and look at the target melting. Or spam piercing damage. Or use auto-aiming powers that then proc passive damage coming from feats.
Or roughly time AoE powers that require no aiming just to deal damage making a feat proc.
true cat, but here is the thing, he could troll on the node if he wanted , but he didnt had the damage to kill them, that was mod4 TR.
but now it has the dmg, and it's really unbalanced, it's the only class that can fight multiple oponents and has 10% chance of dying.. its really easy to play a TR. and the only fix for TR right now it's to nerf his surviability, i dont mind being one shotted as long as i know i have bigger chances to beat him than 1% .
and probably every gwf can take the TR until they soulforge (that is if they dont SE from the begining) .
but the broken feats are too much .
and ty for the tip about the darks, silly me i was keeping r10 radiants on utility, LOL
They probably should remove TR 2 sec reveal..instead, make them unable to go stealth till their stealth bar is 100% full. Also using power from stealth will ensure them 100% crit but will reveal them and emptied their stealth bar to 0%...they need to wait till the stealth bar to regen back to 100% to be able to enter stealth again. All i see now in pvp is stealth warfare..i m getting dizzy trying to point at TR in that 2 sec frame..
Another alternative is make them move like old man in stealth..80% movement reduction while in stealth..i mean u cant be moving like a jet while u are sneaking rite?