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Class balance in PvP has become utterly disgusting and skilless.

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  • zxornzxorn Member Posts: 160 Bounty Hunter
    edited January 2015
    Agree with everything posted here, except the view on what GF should be. I just don't agree that shield = tank.
    Also Tanking in PvP doesn't really work so pushing the GF as a tank is just pushing them in the garbage pile.
    Currently tanking consists of KV and holding your shield up forever, it's boring, no one wants to play that.

    I hardly even use the bullrush/griffon/anvil rotation on my GF it's very flawed in that it relies almost completely on bullrush landing.

    I esp agree with no animation tells for various abilities. Increasing cast speed for CW just made me boggle. Animation tells on abilities were part of the skill in PvP.

    All in all a good post by a player who can see the ever growing problems of PvP in this game,
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  • zxornzxorn Member Posts: 160 Bounty Hunter
    edited January 2015
    starbigamo wrote: »
    i think the things will be far better with level cap increase.

    Cryptic put too many points on us for the game to be balanced, in level 70 with far more hp i doubt that TR will one hit kill my 19k gs guardian fighter again.

    Depends, level cap increase is not really needed in any state of game, it's usually a way to stretch content by adding more gear to grind on an ever dying economy or to heavily alter classes without having the community rage.

    The second part is why it would depend. I'm personally against level cap increases, they serve no real purpose other than to fix problems that the devs created in the first place. If you have a proper economy where items are lost and replaced as well as balanced abilities and stat allocation there's really no purpose behind a level cap increase.

    I've never been one shot by a TR on my GF at 55k Hp. I've had 80% damage but never one shot.
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  • zxornzxorn Member Posts: 160 Bounty Hunter
    edited January 2015
    starbigamo wrote: »
    I am conqueror, 43k hp :)

    About the rest of the post, think about it. we have 4 stats that increase damage and just 2 that reduce damage taken.

    all the stats in the game suffer from reduced income as they raise, still when doing damage you have 3 other options to increase as you began to get diminished return.

    I am sure that the sets we will be using in level 70 will be the ones we are already using. level 60 gear will become "epic".

    What the cap raise will do in practice is nerf Damage and buff defense, both by diminishing relative damage and increasing HP.


    The stat setup is prolly one of the smarter things they made in this game. I purpose that it's not the stats that are causing damage output problems but the feats and abilities the devs have tweaked or added over time.

    Stats play a roll but its all the free damage proc and ignore defense abilities that are causing the majority of problems. If they left the stat setup the way it is now and added more stats on gear the value of each stat wouldn't diminish individually, much. The defense stat would raise higher in value as it has one of the more lenient curves.

    But even if they change the formula it won't change the free damage that some builds get some of which ignore defensive stats to begin with. Changing individual formulas would help but they don't need to raise level cap to do that. A higher HP pool would help with burst damage but I'm assuming the base damage of abilities will also increase with level. So I don't believe higher levels is going to change damage/defense ratio very much if at all.
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  • lewstelamon01lewstelamon01 Member Posts: 7,415 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Just had to prune quite a few posts from this thread. Let's do keep the discussion constructive and refrain from insults or other violations of Rules of Conduct.
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  • rayrdanrayrdan Member Posts: 5,410 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    i am missing the point...how much deflect has a gwf?
    how much dr has a control wizard?
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  • docj0rdocj0r Member Posts: 48 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    morenthar wrote: »
    You people crying to annihilate the TR, instead on focusing on the most important issues, are in for a serious disappointment. Myself and other very honest TRs have spelled it all out for you. You try and paint over the picture, but the truth bleeds through. Very specific things with the TR need fixing.

    If you want to start talking about reworking deflection, you'll have to rework it with ALL classes in mind. As a matter of fact, most of the crying I've seen on these forums is asking for things the Devs just don't have time to do.

    I do hope they can fix what is actually wrong with TRs AND the major talking points happening with all classes. But asking for these huge reworks again just isn't realistic.

    So if TRs are pissing you off, it would be wise to focus on the most important issues that are actually easy to fix. The more nebulous this fiasco gets, the less satisfied you will be with any tweaks to the TR.

    You're totally right, I don't think people will disagree there. People have been asking for changes since mod 4, piercing damage, glyphs etc.

    Those changes haven't come through yet, and the current TR issue is hard to ignore. I posted a SS of a log from a domination, I was hit with SE for almost 54k. PvP for me has become unplayable, I don't queue anymore. I just log in, pray, set professions and log out.

    Now I'm all for broad mechanic changes for many classes.. But for now, the TR could have been quickly tweaked with some hotfixes on specific abilities to stop the massive problem they are causing alot of players.

    No one wants a class "destroyed" to teach them a lesson, but 4x TR's per match makes the result pretty hard to ignore.
  • zxornzxorn Member Posts: 160 Bounty Hunter
    edited January 2015
    starbigamo wrote: »
    True, still don't forget that raising the level cap, will reduce the critical chance, the armor penetration the raw damage from power and the ability to spam abilities.

    I agree that the TR skills are completely OP and broken (as is the dodge spam) but even so with a bigger HP pool i will take less relative damage even taking a bit more absolute damage.

    I agree with you, TR is super broken, still i love the level raising :)

    I didn't really mean TR specifically, I meant Stormspell, Blade furry, Throned Roots, Intimidation, Fire of the Gods, Glyphs, free crits, pretty much anytime you do an action and get free damage on top of that action for no reason at all. It's a garbage way to PvP.

    Just about everything OP mentioned is legit.

    Piercing damage as a whole "can" have a place in PvP much like True Damage in LoL but it needs to be in far less quantities. None of this 100% or even 50% <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
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  • effectensteineffectenstein Member Posts: 1,031 Bounty Hunter
    edited January 2015
    rayrdan wrote: »
    i am missing the point...how much deflect has a gwf?
    how much dr has a control wizard?

    with 4k defense + on sentinel paragon where he recive 8 + AC = 48% DR with neck 8 AC = 52% and 40%-80% DR on unstopable , to get this amount of DR we loose alot of damage.
    the CW has around 40% + Shield on TAB = Shield of tab is halfing the damage and then DR , making the CW more tankier than a GWF , and takin this in consideration the piercing damage too.
  • mirrorballsmirrorballs Member Posts: 877 Bounty Hunter
    edited January 2015
    with 4k defense + on sentinel paragon where he recive 8 + AC = 48% DR with neck 8 AC = 52% and 40%-80% DR on unstopable , to get this amount of DR we loose alot of damage.
    the CW has around 40% + Shield on TAB = Shield of tab is halfing the damage and then DR , making the CW more tankier than a GWF , and takin this in consideration the piercing damage too.

    Sir, I'm not too familiar with GWF stat improvements and builds, and what I know about them mostly comes from fighting them so its quite limited.

    In your opinion, what would be the "normal" level of DR and deflection one can expect from a fully PvP-aware GWF at around 20~22k GS, and with a typical burst-sentinel build?
  • zxornzxorn Member Posts: 160 Bounty Hunter
    edited January 2015
    with 4k defense + on sentinel paragon where he recive 8 + AC = 48% DR with neck 8 AC = 52% and 40%-80% DR on unstopable , to get this amount of DR we loose alot of damage.
    the CW has around 40% + Shield on TAB = Shield of tab is halfing the damage and then DR , making the CW more tankier than a GWF , and takin this in consideration the piercing damage too.

    The effectiveness of Shield is questionable no doubt but this is a bit mislead, the 50% DR is only for the first strike. A smart player will throw a knife, dot or use any at-will before using the big beats. People also don't seem to care the CW is giving up their 4th ability - their class ability to use what is basically nothing but passive DR.

    My biggest concern with shield on tab is when it's used in conjunction with Spell Storm. Before if a mage wanted to tab Shield they lost quite a lot of damage or CC potential but that is no longer true with Spell Storm in it's current state. You may loose some utility like Repel or Ray, but the damage and CC difference is fairly small. This is a good example of how screwed up CW has become IMO, MoF can't compete with that combination at all.

    I say fix Spell Storm then consider Shield's effectiveness. I know 8 months ago I would have never considered running shield on tab.
  • effectensteineffectenstein Member Posts: 1,031 Bounty Hunter
    edited January 2015
    Sir, I'm not too familiar with GWF stat improvements and builds, and what I know about them mostly comes from fighting them so its quite limited.

    In your opinion, what would be the "normal" level of DR and deflection one can expect from a fully PvP-aware GWF at around 20~22k GS, and with a typical burst-sentinel build?

    here is how i see it the sentinel gwf and how it should be

    1st the intimidation build right now it's 35% out of max power transformed as base damage for Daringshout and Cagi , at BIS a GWF can get up to 14k POWER + , what i want to be changed into 350% of weapon damage as base damage, the weapon damage it's 1000 = 3500 base damage, meaning that the GWF wont add more POWER to the build to make it more powerful, but it will make the burst damage at a normal burst.
    Daring Shout and CAGI should buff the allies too , this bringing utility to the sentinel gwf.
    Daring Shout and Cagi should have a 2-3 sec shorter cooldowns because of the burst being nerfed
    so it's like this less burst damage but more often + utility.

    about deflection , it depends, if you play with the profound sets that give 7.5% deflection chance + Bravery + full dex + scale agility, you can probably get up at 50% deflection chance at BIS.
    and now here is the idea of tankyness
    gwf with a 40k HP needs to loose almost half of his HP just to POP his first unstopable, and what does unstopable give us on sentinel paragon ?
    well it gives 40% dr when u have half bar and 80% dr with full bar for , the max bar lasts for 8 seconds until it drains out. so here is my proposition when you pop unstopable you get 8%-16% temporary hitpoints , but on PVP it's affected by HD, this is what i want to be changed into 28%-48% temporary hitpoints affected by HD it's 14%-24% temporary hitpoints of max hitpoints so if you have like 40k you get a 24% hitpoints as temporary hitpoints while you have unstopable poped, cause after 8 seconds you are losing the temporary hitpoints.
    this will give a little of tankyness back to GWF and probably exactly what it needs.
    another thing that should be revised it's the stamina regeneration, after you use sprint it has a big delay in waiting it to start regenerating again, and the Sprint should be more responsive, making it be used as a defensive move, not only as a gap closure.
    so in other matter of words sentinel burst damage is nerfed from the base damage + damage bonus from power, making the sentinels to distribute elsewhere the excess of power.
    and this build will scale from low gear players until BIS players.
    another nerf on sentinels with the burst damage its Powerfull challenge: it grants 15% more damage, this 15% more damage should go to base damage of the GWF and powerfull challenge should increase the threat by 35%. this is a good idea.
    keep in mind, base damage of the CAGI/DARINGSHOUT its total different from the atwills/other encounters and dailies.

    destroyer should remain with the same mechanic that it has now , but ROAR should has a 2 second DAZE
    the DAZE should respect TENACITY and other CC immunity. meaning that ROAR will act like an interrupt more or else.
    with unstopable at 15-30% DR.

    instigator needs a rework.


    other things.

    tricksters are overpowered , and we start with the premise that none class should tank or beat more than 1 oponent , as we can know the TR right now it's the only node capper and node holder , i dont mind his shocking execution or his damage, he can keep it, but what i do mind it's the surivability that it has,
    Stealth , dodges, Itc , daze (this should respect tenacity and cc immunities) , immunity while using dailies , atwills etc.
    this cominbation from each is making this class tanking more than 1 class and succeding winnin aproximative all the 1vs2 fights at BIS.
    so just nerf the surviability and keep the damage (ofc with feats that are fixed)
    the Combat HRs selfhealing should be nerfed , cause if you nerf the TRs , old builds like combat hrs will come back.
    the trapper hrs has the same feats bugged like TRs, there are already made lists of those feats that are broken and need to be fixed, FIXED NOT NERFED. just to respect the tooltip.

    GF are good where they are.

    CW i belive they have some multi proccing abilities too, those should be fixed and the Ice knife damage should be nerfed for like 20% at most.
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  • suddenlyslowsuddenlyslow Member Posts: 818 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    macjae wrote: »
    Also, the fact that you choose to play your scoundrel a certain way that's less than optimal doesn't magically not make it broken, it just means that whatever you have to say about TRs is more or less irrelevant, since you're trying to defend your broken class on the basis of keeping a suboptimal playstyle viable (which just goes to show how broken the class actually is if you can achieve decent results with that -- as you say, fighting the "best" CWs).

    I am very curious (and smiling too) to see just what you think is the 'optimal' way to play the scoundrel.
  • mirrorballsmirrorballs Member Posts: 877 Bounty Hunter
    edited January 2015
    here is how i see it the sentinel gwf and how it should be....

    ...

    CW i belive they have some multi proccing abilities too, those should be fixed and the Ice knife damage should be nerfed for like 20% at most.

    Gotcha, sir. There are some things I do not agree with, but there were also some I found myself nodding with.

    Thanks for sharing your views with us, sir.
  • pando83pando83 Member Posts: 2,564 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    ............

    The problem is most GWF nerfs/ indirect nerfs and many changes were done to mitigate specific sinergies in the past, then the game changed but these "nerfs" accumulated too much also after other classes were buffed.

    Bringing back temporary HPs to unstoppable is imho a good idea. It is right now the worst class mechanic.

    I'd also give sentinel more temp HP compared to the other 2 paths.

    And to instigator a consistent boost to determination gain and temp HP halfway between destro and sentinel.

    Temporary HP from unstoppable should not be affected by HD.
    Considering they last only for unstoppable duration:

    - for sentinels should be something like 20%-40% half bar-full bar. In PvE, it becomes 40-80% temp HPs. After healing depression. Taking into account current determination gain, sentinels must be able to tank through unstoppable consistently. Now it's not consistent not even for sentinels with all the piercing damage and DPS. With a damage reduction as you suggest, making sentinel a lot less able to deal burst DPS, i think the path should then "burst tank". AKA: you should not be able to take down a sentinel in unstoppable. It should be that moment during which a sentinel can really absorb a ton of damage and you just have to evade. If piercing damage has to stay, give temp HPs back to unstoppable.

    - For destro unstoppable is linked to damage and considering destro a PvE path with mechanics more suited for PvE i think it's ok the way it works now. Just bump up temporary HP to make it 12-25% half bar-full bar in PvP and 25-50% in PvE so that destros can melee a bit more continuously without having to run all the time. Considering the boost in final content mobs' DPS it would not be OP.

    - Instigator is supposed to be a DPS-tank hybrid aimed at PvP with some PvE viability. Now, to make this happen i think instigator should have a drastic buff to deflection in nimble runner (from 10% to 20% chance and a 10% increase in severity while sprinting), considering sprint is both a gap closer and not defense-only. A buff to stamina regeneration fitting the intended buff to sprint on this path. So now you have more tankyness "linked" to tactical movement/ footwork. temporary HP from unstoppable can be 15-30% in PvP, doubled in PvE. Determination gain boosted to make it faster the way it is for destroyers, may be throug capstone buffing steadfast determination. So instigator needs to sacrifice, let's say, either trample of the fallen, or bravery, or another passive to boost determination gain.

    In PvE it would be not as strong in DPS as destro, but in between destro and sentinel for both tankyness and DPS.

    But now you would have at least a half tank. Right now instigator is squishier than destro considering how faster destro builds up determination in combat.

    Numbers are just random but it's to give the idea. Temp HP buff to unstoppable as things are now is a good thing. Instigator must be able to use sprint more and more efficiently and absorb a bit more damage overall.
  • mfgamesysmfgamesys Member Posts: 462 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    pando83 wrote: »
    - for sentinels should be something like 20%-40% half bar-full bar. In PvE, it becomes 40-80% temp HPs. After healing depression. Taking into account current determination gain, sentinels must be able to tank through unstoppable consistently. Now it's not consistent not even for sentinels with all the piercing damage and DPS. With a damage reduction as you suggest, making sentinel a lot less able to deal burst DPS, i think the path should then "burst tank". AKA: you should not be able to take down a sentinel in unstoppable. It should be that moment during which a sentinel can really absorb a ton of damage and you just have to evade. If piercing damage has to stay, give temp HPs back to unstoppable.

    Okay before suggesting that make sure you also add in something needs to be done with how intim procs are calculated. By this I mean power does not directly become more damage and should be based on weapon damage (300-350%) so as to balance 12k power builds(this involves using sorbet and some other pots) if your temp hp change was to come to live.
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  • emilemoemilemo Member Posts: 1,718 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    mfgamesys wrote: »
    Okay before suggesting that make sure you also add in something needs to be done with how intim procs are calculated. By this I mean power does not directly become more damage and should be based on weapon damage (300-350%) so as to balance 12k power builds(this involves using sorbet and some other pots) if your temp hp change was to come to live.

    I main what can be considered a near bis GWF Sentinel. My Power is not insanely high ( like those 14k power people I keep hearing about but Ive yet to see one ), in PVP I get 10k Power and Im quite tanky with 50% DR and 40% Deflect ( before WM stacks ). In most matches I cant get even a single kill as my team mates of other classes with far less GS kill way faster than me. I think its time for people to move on and stop complaining about Intimidation and the burst damage it can deal. It was too high once, back when it was 50% of Power. Since then it was not only nerfed but the other classes got boosts. So, at the current scene an Int Sentinel is quite normal imo
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  • generalcolegeneralcole Member Posts: 61 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    TR = Great Nerf
    DC = Nerf
    CW = Buff some skills Nerf some other
    GWF = Buff
    HR = Pretty good Balanced
    GF = Going well
    SW = Not bad just a bit more advances in pvp
  • mirrorballsmirrorballs Member Posts: 877 Bounty Hunter
    edited January 2015
    TR = Great Nerf
    DC = Nerf
    CW = Buff some skills Nerf some other
    GWF = Buff
    HR = Pretty good Balanced
    GF = Going well
    SW = Not bad just a bit more advances in pvp

    I think I can almost make out which class you play in PvP, sir :)

    Just a personal opinion, I really don't think the HR is balanced at all, sir. Basically none of the 'problems' which people considered them to be overpowered had ever been fixed, save a small dip in survival and a fix to something that was simply at a bugged level of OPness.

    Admittedly, it was us TRs who cast such a large shadow over others, that the "focus of hate" has been all concentrated on us TRs as a 'common enemy', but I have a feeling then when our big shadow is cleared, people would probably be reminded of what the HRs can do. They are still great and powerful adversaries, and meeting a good HR always makes me nervous.
  • karakla1karakla1 Member Posts: 1,355 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    You can simply try to calculate through everything and will still come to the conclusion there will be never balanced PvP in Neverwinter if it stay like this.

    The reason is simple. Neverwinter PvP is a duel PvP system. You throw battle power against battle power and the one with the biggest will win. And that is the reason why Neverwinter PvP is bad.

    Normal and good PvP is build around different tasks to fulfill a goal to win the match.

    For an example: Soccer.

    In Soccer you have different position, like defense, offense, mid field, keeper, etc.... All are important and have a job to do. If they work together and do their Job properly it is more likely to win. To accomplish a success you have different type of tactics like the positioning of your teammates (how many play in offense, defense, etc.).
    In a good PvP designed game, it would be more like the upper example. Neverwinter PvP would be like you get your 11 teammates. There is only one rule and goal: Hit the ball and the one ball which flew the furthest will win. Everyone get his own ball, everyone kick and the game is over. That is simply Neverwinter PvP. No Skill needed, GS+ OP Class will most likely definite the outcome of the duel.

    And Cryptic will not change the system because it brings them money. Every Module has his own OP Class. Because a class is overpowered a big mass of players will level up a new character which keeps player busy and they will continue to spend money in the game to gear them up.
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    Platypus wielding a giant hammer, your argument is invalild!
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