Name a class that has a worst basic movement speed than a TR - Your comments just show 1) you lump all TR's and TR feats together. 2) you know nothing about the TR class.
I don't know what class you play but half its basic movement speed - half the effects of their main feats, this is basically what you are asking for. As an example to you my WK SAB have only 10% more speed available as a slotted feat when in stealth. To use this I have to forego using stuff like first strike or whatever.
So yes these suggestion would hurt PVE TR's a lot
GF, CW, DC have slower movement speed. Just by dodging in combat TR can easily outrun them. Not to mention that TR in stealth with the +30% speed feature and feats can nearly match SW's and GWF's sprint in speed. That's silly.
Q solo yesterday for pvp dailies. 4 min waiting. FOR SOLO Q)
Ppl doesn't pvp. Only pugs who still don't know what's going on. And this also will end soon. Good luck)
this is happening since glyphs....good morning
and since you meet enemies with 5k more gs every mod even tho you were full gear until 3 days ago
How would the first affect pve rogues the slightest? You use mounts in PvE. As for dungeons, well, other classes have way worse movement speed.
The second? So you believe that permadaze is cool, huh? There's nothing cool in being dazed 2/3rds of the time when fighting scoundrel TR and spending the remaining 1/3rd hitting at the shadows. Daze is not affected by deflect and is not lowered against players unlike most CC powers.
You can't see why moving slower and having fewer, less effective dodges would affect TRs in PvE? Really?
He said daze procs. That excludes Dazing Strike, and you can't perma-daze with just the Scoundrel feats. Without the ability to keep targets dazed a Scoundrel is useless as they rely on dazing for both defence and DPS. I don't see how perma-daze is possible given that Concussive Strikes has a 50% uptime on crits only and Skullcracker has a 15s cooldown with a max duration of ~6 seconds.
Now - if daze is not properly respecting CC resistance or tenacity then that's a bug that needs to be fixed, and it would not affect PvE TRs at all as daze already respects CC immunity on mobs.
You can't see why moving slower and having fewer, less effective dodges would affect TRs in PvE? Really?
He said daze procs. That excludes Dazing Strike, and you can't perma-daze with just the Scoundrel feats. Without the ability to keep targets dazed a Scoundrel is useless as they rely on dazing for both defence and DPS. I don't see how perma-daze is possible given that Concussive Strikes has a 50% uptime on crits only and Skullcracker has a 15s cooldown with a max duration of ~6 seconds.
Now - if daze is not properly respecting CC resistance or tenacity then that's a bug that needs to be fixed, and it would not affect PvE TRs at all as daze already respects CC immunity on mobs.
another thing that makes daze different from other controls is that you can freely move.
and the tr has no control on procs so half on them are wasted.
GF, CW, DC have slower movement speed. Just by dodging in combat TR can easily outrun them. Not to mention that TR in stealth with the +30% speed feature and feats can nearly match SW's and GWF's sprint in speed. That's silly.
Base movement speed of TRs is no higher than any other class. You can't then compare a TR using every single feat, boon, class feature AND their Tab ability to another class just using their Shift ability. Plus my TR does not move faster than my SW, even with the capstone movement buff from Scoundrel tree.
another thing that makes daze different from other controls is that you can freely move.
and the tr has no control on procs so half on them are wasted.
I know. Most of the times I've been hit by Dazing Strike or Smoke Bomb I've just walked away from the follow-up attack. Sure, that was a Mod or so ago but daze duration on those powers has not changed.
Who u trying to fool baby? I Q solo 90% of my pvp. Not only me can tell different. But nice try again)
PS: made happy another half green half blue puggy happy. SE 36k on full sent max gear)
PS 2: Good night
well i talk for my self and my guild. we completely stopped pvping mod 4 and leaderboard pages mod3-mod4 confirm what i m saying
7000 pages mod 3, 3500 mod 4, 2000 mod 5
You can't see why moving slower and having fewer, less effective dodges would affect TRs in PvE? Really?
He said daze procs. That excludes Dazing Strike, and you can't perma-daze with just the Scoundrel feats. Without the ability to keep targets dazed a Scoundrel is useless as they rely on dazing for both defence and DPS. I don't see how perma-daze is possible given that Concussive Strikes has a 50% uptime on crits only and Skullcracker has a 15s cooldown with a max duration of ~6 seconds.
Now - if daze is not properly respecting CC resistance or tenacity then that's a bug that needs to be fixed, and it would not affect PvE TRs at all as daze already respects CC immunity on mobs.
to add on, a scoundrel truly trying to daze as much as possible will be using 2 daze encounters with the last as itc or whisperknife choice. as such, scoundrel capstone isn't very effective since it will proc on-top of the daze encounters. concussive strikes will likely proc during a daze or flurry (near the end if lucky) so it will have max to no benefit depending on when it procs, but it does help for approaching easily.
scoundrel dazes help, but majority of it is from encounters and is greatly benefiting due to dazing strike having it's animation sped up. even without the daze feats, i still think we would be doing similarly just from the animation speed buffs we received.
to add on, a scoundrel truly trying to daze as much as possible will be using 2 daze encounters with the last as itc or whisperknife choice. as such, scoundrel capstone isn't very effective since it will proc on-top of the daze encounters. concussive strikes will likely proc during a daze or flurry (near the end if lucky) so it will have max to no benefit depending on when it procs, but it does help for approaching easily.
scoundrel dazes help, but majority of it is from encounters and is greatly benefiting due to dazing strike having it's animation sped up. even without the daze feats, i still think we would be doing similarly just from the animation speed buffs we received.
does it even matter? stay stealth gain AP press SE.. job done. That thing rly has to go it doesnt even matter what gear i have i just die 42k hp with 42 AC 50% deflect all for nothing.... That 20% dmg reduction isnt solving a thing
does it even matter? stay stealth gain AP press SE.. job done. That thing rly has to go it doesnt even matter what gear i have i just die 42k hp with 42 AC 50% deflect all for nothing.... That 20% dmg reduction isnt solving a thing
that's because people don't nerf the right thing for the sake of nerfing anyways
loss of auto-critical would have helped since it takes a lot of critical/dex to get into the 40-50% range due to the loss of our 5% critical buff. they could have also just balanced the silly daily by buffing it's damage to be on-par with ice knife but respect resist/deflect (might not help too much against executioners with 45-50% armor pen and the impending half damage that follows). if they just went and did both, it wouldn't even be a problem since an executioner would had to get really lucky to 1-shot with that daily.
but most people in this thread went after the nerf you just mentioned......
that's because people don't nerf the right thing for the sake of nerfing anyways
loss of auto-critical would have helped since it takes a lot of critical/dex to get into the 40-50% range due to the loss of our 5% critical buff. they could have also just balanced the silly daily by buffing it's damage to be on-par with ice knife but respect resist/deflect (might not help too much against executioners with 45-50% armor pen and the impending half damage that follows). if they just went and did both, it wouldn't even be a problem since an executioner would had to get really lucky to 1-shot with that daily.
but most people in this thread went after the nerf you just mentioned......
No. Autocritical wouldn't have helped. There's little difference if you get 1HKO'd 100% of the time or 50% of the time. The possibility to do that with a single daily is insane. Besides, people suggested removing piercing damage from the game alltogether. That would certainly fix some things. 20% reduction is a joke and I said it before.
No. Autocritical wouldn't have helped. There's little difference if you get 1HKO'd 100% of the time or 50% of the time. The possibility to do that with a single daily is insane. Besides, people suggested removing piercing damage from the game alltogether. That would certainly fix some things. 20% reduction is a joke and I said it before.
i suppose it might not make such a big deal with all the ap gain items we have now. still, the possibility to only have a 30-50% chance of a critical alongside the possibility of never having a critical aren't small. as much as people complained about execution prior to mod 5 to bring out it's nerf, i had quite a few matches where i couldn't even kill someone with it even with 40% critical due to it's own weaknesses.
executioner's are all about guaranteed kills since it's their entire build. they won't be willing to just do a 1st strike execution if they are more likely to fail in comparison to a lashing blade. sabs/scoundrels are better off with a different daily probably.
GF, CW, DC have slower movement speed. Just by dodging in combat TR can easily outrun them. Not to mention that TR in stealth with the +30% speed feature and feats can nearly match SW's and GWF's sprint in speed. That's silly.
GF, CW, DF - have the same basic movement speed - your comment is incorrect, I have played these classes they feel no slower, they are no slower.
For example CW just teleporting in combat move faster than TR - your statement about dodging in combat incorrect
in stealth with the +30% speed feature - there is no speed feature, your comment incorrect
There are feats that will increase a TR run speed these are limited to a build/tree/paragon path, not all TR have these, not all TR's slot these. Your comments again incorrect. But I would have no objection to any other class having a speed movement increase as a feat - it needs to be slotted though. Like the TR 10% speed increase when using tab - going to slot yours upon whatever class you play?
Another of your quotes "That's silly" basically sums up your comments.
If upon the other hand you are saying the single path that does give TR's the faster movement speeds, this being the same path that has limited stealth and spends a good percentage of it's time out of stealth is overpowered - please do explain why?
I am not saying you are wrong / or right - but just lumping everything together like you have makes no sense. Gives no feedback positive or negative, and in no way helps explains what trees/feats/paragon paths people would like adjusted for balance issue. I am assuming here you want a balanced class - I do, but I am beginning to think nobody other than old TR players do
I am not trying to have a go at the poster of these comments - I am trying to understand what TR feats people want adjusted. For example you were all crying about perma because that was what makes TR OP. Fair enough, now that's being changed and without even having a chance to see how these changes work in a live environment you are all still requesting yet more and more reductions in TR functions that now don't relate in any way to perma's - Why?
The issue with TRs' piercing damage is not so much that it's piercing damage, but that it's a flat damage amount which is unaffected by what the original skill's damage was. HR piercing blade does a lot of damage but it's fine (mechanics-wise) because it's a flat damage increase, i.e. piercing blade is basically just a flat 40% damage increase to all HR melee skills, whereas TR piercing damage (Shadowy Opportunity) is a flat amount regardless of how much other damage you do; i.e. a deflected Cloud of Steel attack that hits for base 700 will do 3-4k piercing damage from Shadowy Opportunity. I think SO should honestly be changed to be a % of the original attack, i.e. 40% similar to HR piercing blade. This would benefit PvE and also resolve most of the skill's issues in pvp.
I dislike this stealth change; I think it changes gameplay style too much for a lot of TRs and I kind of dislike the new style. Honestly it's not going to change much, TRs are still going to kill everyone 1v1 and run around spamming dailies in both 1v2/1v3. It'll mainly just mean their clearing speed 1v2 is a lot slower or isn't going to happen. 1v1 might be a bit slower but a properly-spec'd and geared TR will still kill everyone. They still have the most survivability out of all classes because of stealth and their ability to backcap is vital to any premade.
Imo this direction limits stealth gameplay a lot. It's not really to my liking, but I can't really say much since I haven't dedicated myself to my TR since I quit playing it in mod 2 (my main is a HR). I think this stealth change isn't necessary but a damage reduction for PvP and the 100% crit being removed would be a better way to go. Otherwise a cooldown to stealth (with defensive buffs for an equal amount of time after exiting stealth) would probably be a more effective solution than this reveal implementation.
I'm not going to vote since a few people have voted with multiple accounts, so that probably could count for me and more.
The issue with piercing damage is not so much that it's piercing damage, but that it's a flat damage amount which is unaffected by what the original skill's damage was. HR piercing blade does a lot of damage but it's fine because it's a flat damage increase, i.e. piercing blade is basically just a flat 40% damage increase to all HR melee skills, whereas TR piercing damage (Shadowy Opportunity) is a flat amount regardless of how much other damage you do; i.e. a deflected Cloud of Steel attack that hits for base 700 will do 3-4k piercing damage from Shadowy Opportunity. I think SO should honestly be changed to be a % of the original attack, i.e. 40% similar to HR piercing blade. This would benefit PvE and also resolve most of the skill's issues in pvp.
I dislike this stealth change; I think it changes gameplay style too much for a lot of TRs and I kind of dislike the new style. Honestly it's not going to change much, TRs are still going to kill everyone 1v1 and run around spamming dailies in both 1v2/1v3. It'll mainly just mean their clearing speed 1v2 is a lot slower or isn't going to happen. 1v1 might be a bit slower but a properly-spec'd and geared TR will still kill everyone. They still have the most survivability out of all classes because of stealth and their ability to backcap is vital to any premade.
Imo this direction limits stealth gameplay a lot. It's not really to my liking, but I can't really say much since I haven't dedicated myself to my TR since I quit playing it in mod 2 (my main is a HR). I think this stealth change isn't necessary but a damage reduction for PvP and the 100% crit being removed would be a better way to go. Otherwise a cooldown to stealth (with defensive buffs for an equal amount of time after exiting stealth) would probably be a more effective solution than this reveal implementation.
I'm not going to vote since a few people have voted with multiple accounts, so that probably could count for me and more.
i have yet to say NO to something you propose.
i play since mod 1 after kelz0r you are the best player i have met
TR piercing damage (Shadowy Opportunity) is a flat amount regardless of how much other damage you do; i.e. a deflected Cloud of Steel attack that hits for base 700 will do 3-4k piercing damage from Shadowy Opportunity
That's an interesting fact and I wonder where you got this from - my TR SAB does a percentage of weapon damage as piercing damage. I think it is meant to be 75% but in all honesty using actual damage upon my TR this normally works out at 77% by my calculations. I am not really sure exactly how this is calculated - but I thought this was based upon damage delivered.
So for example
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Cloud of Steel deals 2239 (2391) Physical Damage to Assassin Drake.
[Combat (Self)] Your Shadowy Opportunity deals 1726 Physical Damage to Assassin Drake.
I cannot recall ever seeing a Shadowy Opportunity doing more damage than the original hit, but then I have not really looked at stuff in a PVP environment which I guess might be different. Or perhaps if you are getting higher figures for SO there is a bug going on somewhere?
Its an interesting point - and it would be nice to hear what other people are getting
That's an interesting fact and I wonder where you got this from - my TR SAB does a percentage of weapon damage as piercing damage. I think it is meant to be 75% but in all honesty using actual damage upon my TR this normally works out at 77% by my calculations. I am not really sure exactly how this is calculated - but I thought this was based upon damage delivered.
So for example
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Cloud of Steel deals 2239 (2391) Physical Damage to Assassin Drake.
[Combat (Self)] Your Shadowy Opportunity deals 1726 Physical Damage to Assassin Drake.
I cannot recall ever seeing a Shadowy Opportunity doing more damage than the original hit, but then I have not really looked at stuff in a PVP environment which I guess might be different. Or perhaps if you are getting higher figures for SO there is a bug going on somewhere?
Its an interesting point - and it would be nice to hear what other people are getting
Thanks
Matthew
A damage permastealth TR averages around 3k on each hit of Shadowy Opportunity iirc, possibly 4k but can't remember off the top of my head. Yes, 75% of weapon damage, not attack damage, aka a flat damage counter (slightly variable because weapon damage has ranges, but still a static value). However this 75% of weapon damage is affected by damage buffs in stealth, which almost more than doubles the damage. I made a post regarding it in one of the preview topics, I'll try and find it.
Note that this was on preview, on live it hits a bit harder because you have more gear (some of it wasn't available on preview at the time). If you also look at the premitigation (pre-tenacity in this case) damage of the feat, you can see damage counters up to 4k.
Note that this maths is based on premitigation, so you'd generally decrease those numbers by about 16-20% to account for tenacity DR, and there's actually probably a few more damage increases, but overall the base damage shouldn't be higher than 2.5k.
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mojoratMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 90
A damage permastealth TR averages around 3k on each hit of Shadowy Opportunity iirc, possibly 4k but can't remember off the top of my head. Yes, 75% of weapon damage, not attack damage, aka a flat damage counter (slightly variable because weapon damage has ranges, but still a static value). However this 75% of weapon damage is affected by damage buffs in stealth, which almost more than doubles the damage. I made a post regarding it in one of the preview topics, I'll try and find it.
Note that this was on preview, on live it hits a bit harder because you have more gear (some of it wasn't available on preview at the time). If you also look at the premitigation (pre-tenacity in this case) damage of the feat, you can see damage counters up to 4k.
Note that this maths is based on premitigation, so you'd generally decrease those numbers by about 16-20% to account for tenacity DR, and there's actually probably a few more damage increases, but overall the base damage shouldn't be higher than 2.5k.
Umm it is piercing damage there is no mitigation. I'm not sure about tenacity but if you had 90% dr and a tr with the feat threw 10 class attacks at you for 1k damage eaxh attack you would take..
100 (1000) from each attack then take 100% of the piercing damage.
For around 21k damage.
I said "tenacity DR" not "DR". And yes, you are correct, DR is meaningless against piercing damage, which is particularly woeful for SWs and GWFs who cannot dodge said damage, but from the logs the damage is being affected by tenacity.
I had 21% tenacity in those logs, which reduced the damage by about 21-22% which is as it should have been assuming Shadowy Opportunity's piercing damage is affected by tenacity. Read things before you start making assumptions.
This may or may not be a bug (iirc HR piercing blade isn't affected by tenacity or DR although I might be wrong, I haven't used it for a very long time), but TR Shadowy Opportunity piercing damage has a different mechanic to HR piercing damage anyway (flat amount/range of damage vs % of original attack damage (flat % damage boost)).
Imo SO piercing damage should be changed to be an amount proportionate to the attack that triggered it, meaning Shadowy Opportunity will do less damage with a lower damage attack such as Cloud of Steel whereas a higher damage attack such as Gloaming Cut or Lashing Blade will do more damage, similar to how the Executioner capstone (Shadow of Demise) works.
Piercing Damage as a concept is fine, at least regarding how the HR Piercing Blade works (mechanics), but I dislike the TR one simply because it gives the same reward regardless of the risk/power of the original attack - a 500 damage Cloud of Steel will give the same reward from Shadowy Opportunity as a 10k Gloaming Cut will. Low damage skills should stay low damage with less risk while high damage skills should stay as high damage with high risk.
It averages 2K Per hit on all attacks be it Gloaming cut or CoS and ignores all forms of damage immunity or deflection such as ITC or Unstoppable, never hits lower then 1500 unless reduced by the below factors
Only factors that lower its damage would be empowered shield or Purple Shield
I have notice small correlation to the damage done reflecting on the SO proc off of GC. it seems like SO Responds to the executioner mechanic in GC.
20k GC hits will more often then not hit 3-4k Damage, but thats mostly a PvE number
My only concern with a nerf is that it's the only thing making cloud of steel a viable at will to slot in, other then that It won't affect the majority of a TR's PvP damage
as for making it work like ralex suggested, could be hazardous with Gloaming cut hitting high as it does, same goes for shocking.
to add on, a scoundrel truly trying to daze as much as possible will be using 2 daze encounters with the last as itc or whisperknife choice. as such, scoundrel capstone isn't very effective since it will proc on-top of the daze encounters. concussive strikes will likely proc during a daze or flurry (near the end if lucky) so it will have max to no benefit depending on when it procs, but it does help for approaching easily.
Which, empirically implies this reported permadze is simply a farce.
At least, speaking for MI/Scos, the necessity of ITC and SS remains constant as a TR. Seeing as how even the current Sabs require SS to remain at the utmost competency possible, a build that engages in PvP without BOTH SS and ITC is just no an option. This typically leaves ONE encounter slot to be used, and the given choice is most definately Dazing Strike. In some cases of course Smoke Bomb could be warranted, but in general SB is defensive in nature and lacks consistency. The long recharge time is also a problem, hence SB is considered to be a team-oriented power most commonly used at the mid-node.
OTOH, Dazing Strike actually used to have a higher DPS than LB in prior mods, when LB didn't use to have the extra +50% severity bonus. Dazing Strike recharge is less than half of LB recharge, and yet the overall damage was higher than half of LB. Over a course of time where ONE LB is used, DS would be used twice and deal higher damage than a single shot of LB, the 4s daze effects being another bonus. The only reason why DS was not very popular is of course, the impossibility of hitting it against a moving target. Now that it is much easier to hit with, the natural choice of a MI/Sco would fall down to ITC/DS/SS as the three encounters.
...
A series of pre-planned, long dazes are almost entirely from WK/Scos, since the absence of ITC, ironically allows them a freedom to choose another encounter of their choice, and in this case the best choice being VP, so a seasoned WK/Sco would typically go forward with VP/DS/SS -- in which case a planned course of "long-daze" is possible.
When the initial stealth duration is about to end the TR will throw a shot of VP which will imitiate SC and CS at the same time. Being predominantly ranged a follow up of CoS shots will easily extend the first SC to the theoretical 6 seconds. As the 6s maximum daze duration of SC is about to be reached a 2nd CS daze is likely to happen at some point, and then ofcourse, VP(teleport) will close the distance to melee range to immediately follow up with a DS.
This means as long as SC is available a WK/Sco will be able to extend his dazes into one long series of dazes that lasts upto some 8~10s. After the full limit of the chained dazes are reached the WK/Sco will hit SS and fade back into stealth, which, after 5~6 seconds SC will be readied to be procced again.
Ofcourse, even in this case, the chainded dazes are only meaningful under a 1vs1 context, as the existence of another hostile player in the vicinity (preferably those with ranged CCs) will simply neuter the performance of the WK at the spot. Also, this "long daze" tactics are made only possible because the WK doesn't have ITC in the first place (hence, he chooses another optional encounter to set his SC attack in parallel to the daze from DS). What this implies is pretty clear -- if you can figure out the start of the "long-daze", then you can simply break out of the daze with Oghma's and attempt to CC the WK in reverse, in which case if you succeed then the tables are turned.
scoundrel dazes help, but majority of it is from encounters and is greatly benefiting due to dazing strike having it's animation sped up. even without the daze feats, i still think we would be doing similarly just from the animation speed buffs we received.
Most likely.
Many people simply cannot distinguish between whether they were simply hit by Dazing Strike, or if they were really effected by Scoundrel feats. People also simply exaggerate. They could have plenty of uptime, and yet, if they were dazed at some crucial moments then they would remember it as being "perma-dazed". It is one of the reasons why using anecdotes as a basis to determining what is going on in PvP is simply useless and worthless.
By all means, we really must try to make a habit out of making videos when we want to strongly emphasize a certain point in discussions. A small amount of money spent on basic tools such as Fraps helps. usually all you need is Fraps, a trusty enconder, and Youtube. That's what I use.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
If I start at 100% health reach 50%-30% BEFORE I can do anything at all, then I have 1 second or less before I am right back in daze straight to zero life, that is PERMA-DAZE.
No matter how you try and slice it going from 100%-0% in the matter of 10 seconds or less and have ZERO chance to even defend yourself is PERMA-DAZE.
Comments
GF, CW, DC have slower movement speed. Just by dodging in combat TR can easily outrun them. Not to mention that TR in stealth with the +30% speed feature and feats can nearly match SW's and GWF's sprint in speed. That's silly.
this is happening since glyphs....good morning
and since you meet enemies with 5k more gs every mod even tho you were full gear until 3 days ago
He said daze procs. That excludes Dazing Strike, and you can't perma-daze with just the Scoundrel feats. Without the ability to keep targets dazed a Scoundrel is useless as they rely on dazing for both defence and DPS. I don't see how perma-daze is possible given that Concussive Strikes has a 50% uptime on crits only and Skullcracker has a 15s cooldown with a max duration of ~6 seconds.
Now - if daze is not properly respecting CC resistance or tenacity then that's a bug that needs to be fixed, and it would not affect PvE TRs at all as daze already respects CC immunity on mobs.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
another thing that makes daze different from other controls is that you can freely move.
and the tr has no control on procs so half on them are wasted.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
well i talk for my self and my guild. we completely stopped pvping mod 4 and leaderboard pages mod3-mod4 confirm what i m saying
7000 pages mod 3, 3500 mod 4, 2000 mod 5
they just introduced that kind of power creep only 200-300 people can keep up with
to add on, a scoundrel truly trying to daze as much as possible will be using 2 daze encounters with the last as itc or whisperknife choice. as such, scoundrel capstone isn't very effective since it will proc on-top of the daze encounters. concussive strikes will likely proc during a daze or flurry (near the end if lucky) so it will have max to no benefit depending on when it procs, but it does help for approaching easily.
scoundrel dazes help, but majority of it is from encounters and is greatly benefiting due to dazing strike having it's animation sped up. even without the daze feats, i still think we would be doing similarly just from the animation speed buffs we received.
does it even matter? stay stealth gain AP press SE.. job done. That thing rly has to go it doesnt even matter what gear i have i just die 42k hp with 42 AC 50% deflect all for nothing.... That 20% dmg reduction isnt solving a thing
that's because people don't nerf the right thing for the sake of nerfing anyways
loss of auto-critical would have helped since it takes a lot of critical/dex to get into the 40-50% range due to the loss of our 5% critical buff. they could have also just balanced the silly daily by buffing it's damage to be on-par with ice knife but respect resist/deflect (might not help too much against executioners with 45-50% armor pen and the impending half damage that follows). if they just went and did both, it wouldn't even be a problem since an executioner would had to get really lucky to 1-shot with that daily.
but most people in this thread went after the nerf you just mentioned......
No. Autocritical wouldn't have helped. There's little difference if you get 1HKO'd 100% of the time or 50% of the time. The possibility to do that with a single daily is insane. Besides, people suggested removing piercing damage from the game alltogether. That would certainly fix some things. 20% reduction is a joke and I said it before.
i suppose it might not make such a big deal with all the ap gain items we have now. still, the possibility to only have a 30-50% chance of a critical alongside the possibility of never having a critical aren't small. as much as people complained about execution prior to mod 5 to bring out it's nerf, i had quite a few matches where i couldn't even kill someone with it even with 40% critical due to it's own weaknesses.
executioner's are all about guaranteed kills since it's their entire build. they won't be willing to just do a 1st strike execution if they are more likely to fail in comparison to a lashing blade. sabs/scoundrels are better off with a different daily probably.
GF, CW, DF - have the same basic movement speed - your comment is incorrect, I have played these classes they feel no slower, they are no slower.
For example CW just teleporting in combat move faster than TR - your statement about dodging in combat incorrect
in stealth with the +30% speed feature - there is no speed feature, your comment incorrect
There are feats that will increase a TR run speed these are limited to a build/tree/paragon path, not all TR have these, not all TR's slot these. Your comments again incorrect. But I would have no objection to any other class having a speed movement increase as a feat - it needs to be slotted though. Like the TR 10% speed increase when using tab - going to slot yours upon whatever class you play?
Another of your quotes "That's silly" basically sums up your comments.
If upon the other hand you are saying the single path that does give TR's the faster movement speeds, this being the same path that has limited stealth and spends a good percentage of it's time out of stealth is overpowered - please do explain why?
I am not saying you are wrong / or right - but just lumping everything together like you have makes no sense. Gives no feedback positive or negative, and in no way helps explains what trees/feats/paragon paths people would like adjusted for balance issue. I am assuming here you want a balanced class - I do, but I am beginning to think nobody other than old TR players do
I am not trying to have a go at the poster of these comments - I am trying to understand what TR feats people want adjusted. For example you were all crying about perma because that was what makes TR OP. Fair enough, now that's being changed and without even having a chance to see how these changes work in a live environment you are all still requesting yet more and more reductions in TR functions that now don't relate in any way to perma's - Why?
My best to you
Matthew
I dislike this stealth change; I think it changes gameplay style too much for a lot of TRs and I kind of dislike the new style. Honestly it's not going to change much, TRs are still going to kill everyone 1v1 and run around spamming dailies in both 1v2/1v3. It'll mainly just mean their clearing speed 1v2 is a lot slower or isn't going to happen. 1v1 might be a bit slower but a properly-spec'd and geared TR will still kill everyone. They still have the most survivability out of all classes because of stealth and their ability to backcap is vital to any premade.
Imo this direction limits stealth gameplay a lot. It's not really to my liking, but I can't really say much since I haven't dedicated myself to my TR since I quit playing it in mod 2 (my main is a HR). I think this stealth change isn't necessary but a damage reduction for PvP and the 100% crit being removed would be a better way to go. Otherwise a cooldown to stealth (with defensive buffs for an equal amount of time after exiting stealth) would probably be a more effective solution than this reveal implementation.
I'm not going to vote since a few people have voted with multiple accounts, so that probably could count for me and more.
i have yet to say NO to something you propose.
i play since mod 1 after kelz0r you are the best player i have met
That's an interesting fact and I wonder where you got this from - my TR SAB does a percentage of weapon damage as piercing damage. I think it is meant to be 75% but in all honesty using actual damage upon my TR this normally works out at 77% by my calculations. I am not really sure exactly how this is calculated - but I thought this was based upon damage delivered.
So for example
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Cloud of Steel deals 2239 (2391) Physical Damage to Assassin Drake.
[Combat (Self)] Your Shadowy Opportunity deals 1726 Physical Damage to Assassin Drake.
I cannot recall ever seeing a Shadowy Opportunity doing more damage than the original hit, but then I have not really looked at stuff in a PVP environment which I guess might be different. Or perhaps if you are getting higher figures for SO there is a bug going on somewhere?
Its an interesting point - and it would be nice to hear what other people are getting
Thanks
Matthew
As an after thought - I am not saying this damage should stay, or that it should go
Just pointing out that I think it works differently to how you suggest
All the best
Matthew
A damage permastealth TR averages around 3k on each hit of Shadowy Opportunity iirc, possibly 4k but can't remember off the top of my head. Yes, 75% of weapon damage, not attack damage, aka a flat damage counter (slightly variable because weapon damage has ranges, but still a static value). However this 75% of weapon damage is affected by damage buffs in stealth, which almost more than doubles the damage. I made a post regarding it in one of the preview topics, I'll try and find it.
EDIT:
Original post with logs: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?773401-Official-Feedback-Thread-Trickster-Rogue-Changes&p=9406411&viewfull=1#post9406411
Note that this was on preview, on live it hits a bit harder because you have more gear (some of it wasn't available on preview at the time). If you also look at the premitigation (pre-tenacity in this case) damage of the feat, you can see damage counters up to 4k.
My maths on the feat: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?773401-Official-Feedback-Thread-Trickster-Rogue-Changes&p=9409431&viewfull=1#post9409431
Note that this maths is based on premitigation, so you'd generally decrease those numbers by about 16-20% to account for tenacity DR, and there's actually probably a few more damage increases, but overall the base damage shouldn't be higher than 2.5k.
Umm it is piercing damage there is no mitigation. I'm not sure about tenacity but if you had 90% dr and a tr with the feat threw 10 class attacks at you for 1k damage eaxh attack you would take..
100 (1000) from each attack then take 100% of the piercing damage.
For around 21k damage.
Its piercing your dr is meaningless.
I had 21% tenacity in those logs, which reduced the damage by about 21-22% which is as it should have been assuming Shadowy Opportunity's piercing damage is affected by tenacity. Read things before you start making assumptions.
This may or may not be a bug (iirc HR piercing blade isn't affected by tenacity or DR although I might be wrong, I haven't used it for a very long time), but TR Shadowy Opportunity piercing damage has a different mechanic to HR piercing damage anyway (flat amount/range of damage vs % of original attack damage (flat % damage boost)).
Imo SO piercing damage should be changed to be an amount proportionate to the attack that triggered it, meaning Shadowy Opportunity will do less damage with a lower damage attack such as Cloud of Steel whereas a higher damage attack such as Gloaming Cut or Lashing Blade will do more damage, similar to how the Executioner capstone (Shadow of Demise) works.
Piercing Damage as a concept is fine, at least regarding how the HR Piercing Blade works (mechanics), but I dislike the TR one simply because it gives the same reward regardless of the risk/power of the original attack - a 500 damage Cloud of Steel will give the same reward from Shadowy Opportunity as a 10k Gloaming Cut will. Low damage skills should stay low damage with less risk while high damage skills should stay as high damage with high risk.
It averages 2K Per hit on all attacks be it Gloaming cut or CoS and ignores all forms of damage immunity or deflection such as ITC or Unstoppable, never hits lower then 1500 unless reduced by the below factors
Only factors that lower its damage would be empowered shield or Purple Shield
I have notice small correlation to the damage done reflecting on the SO proc off of GC. it seems like SO Responds to the executioner mechanic in GC.
20k GC hits will more often then not hit 3-4k Damage, but thats mostly a PvE number
My only concern with a nerf is that it's the only thing making cloud of steel a viable at will to slot in, other then that It won't affect the majority of a TR's PvP damage
as for making it work like ralex suggested, could be hazardous with Gloaming cut hitting high as it does, same goes for shocking.
Which, empirically implies this reported permadze is simply a farce.
At least, speaking for MI/Scos, the necessity of ITC and SS remains constant as a TR. Seeing as how even the current Sabs require SS to remain at the utmost competency possible, a build that engages in PvP without BOTH SS and ITC is just no an option. This typically leaves ONE encounter slot to be used, and the given choice is most definately Dazing Strike. In some cases of course Smoke Bomb could be warranted, but in general SB is defensive in nature and lacks consistency. The long recharge time is also a problem, hence SB is considered to be a team-oriented power most commonly used at the mid-node.
OTOH, Dazing Strike actually used to have a higher DPS than LB in prior mods, when LB didn't use to have the extra +50% severity bonus. Dazing Strike recharge is less than half of LB recharge, and yet the overall damage was higher than half of LB. Over a course of time where ONE LB is used, DS would be used twice and deal higher damage than a single shot of LB, the 4s daze effects being another bonus. The only reason why DS was not very popular is of course, the impossibility of hitting it against a moving target. Now that it is much easier to hit with, the natural choice of a MI/Sco would fall down to ITC/DS/SS as the three encounters.
...
A series of pre-planned, long dazes are almost entirely from WK/Scos, since the absence of ITC, ironically allows them a freedom to choose another encounter of their choice, and in this case the best choice being VP, so a seasoned WK/Sco would typically go forward with VP/DS/SS -- in which case a planned course of "long-daze" is possible.
When the initial stealth duration is about to end the TR will throw a shot of VP which will imitiate SC and CS at the same time. Being predominantly ranged a follow up of CoS shots will easily extend the first SC to the theoretical 6 seconds. As the 6s maximum daze duration of SC is about to be reached a 2nd CS daze is likely to happen at some point, and then ofcourse, VP(teleport) will close the distance to melee range to immediately follow up with a DS.
This means as long as SC is available a WK/Sco will be able to extend his dazes into one long series of dazes that lasts upto some 8~10s. After the full limit of the chained dazes are reached the WK/Sco will hit SS and fade back into stealth, which, after 5~6 seconds SC will be readied to be procced again.
Ofcourse, even in this case, the chainded dazes are only meaningful under a 1vs1 context, as the existence of another hostile player in the vicinity (preferably those with ranged CCs) will simply neuter the performance of the WK at the spot. Also, this "long daze" tactics are made only possible because the WK doesn't have ITC in the first place (hence, he chooses another optional encounter to set his SC attack in parallel to the daze from DS). What this implies is pretty clear -- if you can figure out the start of the "long-daze", then you can simply break out of the daze with Oghma's and attempt to CC the WK in reverse, in which case if you succeed then the tables are turned.
Most likely.
Many people simply cannot distinguish between whether they were simply hit by Dazing Strike, or if they were really effected by Scoundrel feats. People also simply exaggerate. They could have plenty of uptime, and yet, if they were dazed at some crucial moments then they would remember it as being "perma-dazed". It is one of the reasons why using anecdotes as a basis to determining what is going on in PvP is simply useless and worthless.
By all means, we really must try to make a habit out of making videos when we want to strongly emphasize a certain point in discussions. A small amount of money spent on basic tools such as Fraps helps. usually all you need is Fraps, a trusty enconder, and Youtube. That's what I use.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
No matter how you try and slice it going from 100%-0% in the matter of 10 seconds or less and have ZERO chance to even defend yourself is PERMA-DAZE.