With the recent BI sets and all the self heals, I can draw up aggro with every visible mob in the quest instance and simply just facetank it with Duelist's Flurry and still be OK. You think that's skill? That ain't no skill. That's playing stupidly, against how the class was originally designed to be played, no stealth, no finesse, no tactics. Just blind, stupid steamrolling and I heal myself so much with LS and Regen + Purified effects, that I can't die.
i kinda doubt that considering no rogue can self-heal to the extent of aoe classes. even considering single-target self-healing, it's still pretty low and takes like 4 seconds to get off a flurry while other classes can just use an encounter and hit harder for more healing than our encounters.
life-steal is only out-of-control when you aoe for lots of damage, but it's completely reasonable in single-target situations. at the same time, mob spam is also out-of-control so it is probably cancels itself out.
People remember that large chunks of this game are designed as solo content, right? Not least levelling?
While it might be nice to remove LS and Regen so that uber-geared Dungeon runners have use for DCs and GFs, it will be murder for the average geared player just trying to level and then wade through their dailies. IWD with no LS or Regen? No thanks.
aulduronMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,351Arc User
edited September 2014
Any 5 characters should be able to clear any dungeon. There should be no required classes.
Without lifesteal, DCs could never keep the group alive. We just don't have enough healing. Our main job is to mitigate incoming damage and buff outgoing damage. Healing is a side effect of us doing our jobs. Any group who doesn't want A DC is foolish.
With a GF, there is no CC required. In fact, I try to never run E-Shores without at least one. I'd rather have 1 good GF than 3 CWs in the group.
Any 5 characters should be able to clear any dungeon. There should be no required classes.
Without lifesteal, DCs could never keep the group alive.
They can. That's what everyone was doing at launch until mod 2. Of course there were a lot of subpar clerics not doing the job well and that was a common complaint. I've tried healing spells for the lulz lately in epic shores, i've scored 900k healing, which isn't bad for a 7-8 mins instance. My bastion of heal crits for 11k with a few buffs and my healing word can bring people back from almost certain death to full HP in no time.
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katbozejziemiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 856Arc User
edited September 2014
Regen is terrible for PvE and it would still be terrible even if you buffed it by 200%.
I don't need another game with healer drama queens.
Theoretically, it's possible to reduce lifesteal without making players dependent on healers, if it's done alongside other balance changes, like increasing the efficacy of the other stats. Marvel Heroes is an example of a game that nerfed lifesteal, and they did so without some of the problems posters in this thread have brought up.
They nerfed lifesteal because it made offensive specs / builds overpowered compared to defensive specs / builds. If the Neverwinter devs have the same concern, I'd suggest two changes:
make lifesteal a percentage of health bar, rather than damage dealt (so it synergizes with defense rather than offense)
give lifesteal an internal cooldown (so it does not benefit AOE more than single-target attacks)
So forsolo play (and extremely important, for PvP!), LS and Regen need to do their job.
They need some rebalancing for dungeons so you need Tank and Heals. Otherwise people will abuse the system and run stacked FOTM parties instead.
To balance lifesteal, the best solution still would be to lower CW's (and other aoe using classe's) target caps. Because, aoe classes exclusively benefit too much from lifesteal. That way single target classes won't be screwed over just because 2% of the community think that it should require a freaking supporter (DC) for every tiny little bit of content. As for dungeons requiring a tank, it is never going to happen. I pointed out why, long ago already. Tanks slow down the rest of the party, while a conqueror is able to tank semi decent and dish out decent damage, where a tank just stands there, chilling with regeneration and zero dps/burst. Tanks were never needed in the first place and plenty of resources have been wasted on trying to turn the GF class into a brainless party buffer.
So yeah, limit aoe user's lifesteal to one target if it makes the DC's happier. Personally, i wouldnt't want to play a game where i have to have a supporter with me (DC is not a healer, btw), because i can get exactly that in every other xy-mmo out there. (but to each, their own)
They can. That's what everyone was doing at launch until mod 2. Of course there were a lot of subpar clerics not doing the job well and that was a common complaint. I've tried healing spells for the lulz lately in epic shores, i've scored 900k healing, which isn't bad for a 7-8 mins instance. My bastion of heal crits for 11k with a few buffs and my healing word can bring people back from almost certain death to full HP in no time.
Are you using a pvorp? Just wondering My SW is temp spec, and she heals like a beast. I have gotten 72k heals with it/ My SW is rather well geared, and I have all boons done. even ToD,, so take that into account too. One thing this thread doesn't get is that clerics also basically double any healing done just by being in the group. They do not even need to heal for this happen. So, with a DC in party my 18% lifesteal is doubled to 36% lifeseal, which is again doubled to other people in party. SW + DC makes any party pretty much invulnerable xD
Basically rhough lifesteal is an integral part of the game, and there is now a class for which lifesteal is a main stat - the healing sw, though it is important for fury sws too ofc. Remove lifesteal, and you might as well remove temptation warlocks too.
May the RNG Gods smile on you today!
Adorable Temptress - 23.4k Temptation SW
Mara Angelbane - 22k Thaum CW, Vaya Con Dios 15.2k Dragon CW.
Mara Shadowskiss - 21.5k Destroyer GWF, Mara - 17.2k Sentinel GWF
Mara Duskwalker - 15.4k Healing DC
Mara Hawkeye -14.6k HR
Mara Spiritforge - 16.9k Tanky GF
Bad Religion - 14.7k Pew Pew DC
Mara Shadowstouch,Maara - TR's
Are you using a pvorp? Just wondering My SW is temp spec, and she heals like a beast. I have gotten 72k heals with it/ My SW is rather well geared, and I have all boons done. even ToD,, so take that into account too. One thing this thread doesn't get is that clerics also basically double any healing done just by being in the group. They do not even need to heal for this happen. So, with a DC in party my 18% lifesteal is doubled to 36% lifeseal, which is again doubled to other people in party. SW + DC makes any party pretty much invulnerable xD
Basically rhough lifesteal is an integral part of the game, and there is now a class for which lifesteal is a main stat - the healing sw, though it is important for fury sws too ofc. Remove lifesteal, and you might as well remove temptation warlocks too.
Well that's just code so in theory anything is possible. No one said there couldn't be any special lifesteal stat/mechanics for warlocks.
Can the DC's stop throwing tantrums? We tried to explain, even in detail why LS may be a little off the wall on "certain" (aoe using *cough,cough*) classes. You guys are getting an entire class rework and it would not surprise me, if the devs decide to get rid of righteousness, which was mainly introduced, due to people complaining about the DC not being in need of health potions as frequently as other classes and that argument is pretty much moot, by now. So 1+1 is 2, not 3. There's no need for drama 24/7, just be a little more patient.
I do have to agree. When I first started playing I was the same way on my DC - wanted partys to NEED my healing. Then I got used to playing the game as the devs have designed it - taking advantage of low potion cooldowns, LS and regen which barely does anything in pve really as my HP is usually full most of the time anyway. Theres really no need to ask for such game altering change as this would be just because you want to be needed.
May the RNG Gods smile on you today!
Adorable Temptress - 23.4k Temptation SW
Mara Angelbane - 22k Thaum CW, Vaya Con Dios 15.2k Dragon CW.
Mara Shadowskiss - 21.5k Destroyer GWF, Mara - 17.2k Sentinel GWF
Mara Duskwalker - 15.4k Healing DC
Mara Hawkeye -14.6k HR
Mara Spiritforge - 16.9k Tanky GF
Bad Religion - 14.7k Pew Pew DC
Mara Shadowstouch,Maara - TR's
I do have to agree. When I first started playing I was the same way on my DC - wanted partys to NEED my healing. Then I got used to playing the game as the devs have designed it - taking advantage of low potion cooldowns, LS and regen which barely does anything in pve really as my HP is usually full most of the time anyway. Theres really no need to ask for such game altering change as this would be just because you want to be needed.
I don't want them to be needed, I want them to be needed more (I mean, I don't want a party unable to do something if they are strong, but outhealing the "Healer" class?, it's ridiculous).
I get the idea, they want to make an easy dungeon for any composition and casual players and blah blah, but this is just bad... LS shouldn't be so OP...
Can the DC's stop throwing tantrums? We tried to explain, even in detail why LS may be a little off the wall on "certain" (aoe using *cough,cough*) classes. You guys are getting an entire class rework and it would not surprise me, if the devs decide to get rid of righteousness, which was mainly introduced, due to people complaining about the DC not being in need of health potions as frequently as other classes and that argument is pretty much moot, by now. So 1+1 is 2, not 3. There's no need for drama 24/7, just be a little more patient.
The thing is that the devs keep seeming to want to do stuff to the DC that tends to shoehorn the DC into a healer role, which many parties don't need. The buff/debuff role isn't rewarded by heroic encounters because it's too hard to measure, and this has been confirmed outright. Upper tier DC gear all has healing set bonuses. The class rework is making two of the feat paths into more defined healers, also confirmed.
Cleric players want to be relevant. That doesn't necessarily mean they want people to be reliant on their heals, except that's the toolkit the devs keep trying to give them.
I don't want them to be needed, I want them to be needed more (I mean, I don't want a party unable to do something if they are strong, but outhealing the "Healer" class?, it's ridiculous).
I get the idea, they want to make an easy dungeon for any composition and casual players and blah blah, but this is just bad... LS shouldn't be so OP...
DC's aren't healers, they're supporters, pal. Read the entire thread btw, people explained why LS is a bit heavy on AOE using classes.
That doesn't necessarily mean they want people to be reliant on their heals, except that's the toolkit the devs keep trying to give them.
There's nothing wrong with wanting that.
I play a CW and an HR that could both solo most dungeons in the game, and I have nothing against making dungeon runs hard enough to require a healer, especially the bosses.
This can be achieved quite easily with "aura" type unavoidable damage such as Lostmauth has, it just needs to be stronger. Pulsating AoE damage without red zone telegraph each 3 secs or so, 10K+ is you're not in an Astral Shield seems fine to me.
This would be just the start, I can imagine numerous ways to make DCs useful in dungeons, in HEALING, while also debuffing/buffing at the same time.
Some players though are just to used to their self-sufficient OP-ness.
I don't want them to be needed, I want them to be needed more (I mean, I don't want a party unable to do something if they are strong, but outhealing the "Healer" class?, it's ridiculous).
I get the idea, they want to make an easy dungeon for any composition and casual players and blah blah, but this is just bad... LS shouldn't be so OP...
You do realise that by you being there they get double the lifesteal heals? THAT is why they can outheal you. If you were not in party theyd heal half of that amount. A lot of people do not know that about the DC class so just thought I would mention it xD
You make all healing 50% more effect just by being there, dont even need to use the heals to do that - on my DC's I usually run w chains, divine glow and sunburst or the big nuke forget what its called, but it also puts 10% dmg buff on the mobs it hits. DC's add a LOT to a party, but I can agree that they do need stronger healing for sure.
May the RNG Gods smile on you today!
Adorable Temptress - 23.4k Temptation SW
Mara Angelbane - 22k Thaum CW, Vaya Con Dios 15.2k Dragon CW.
Mara Shadowskiss - 21.5k Destroyer GWF, Mara - 17.2k Sentinel GWF
Mara Duskwalker - 15.4k Healing DC
Mara Hawkeye -14.6k HR
Mara Spiritforge - 16.9k Tanky GF
Bad Religion - 14.7k Pew Pew DC
Mara Shadowstouch,Maara - TR's
I play a CW and an HR that could both solo most dungeons in the game, and I have nothing against making dungeon runs hard enough to require a healer, especially the bosses.
This can be achieved quite easily with "aura" type unavoidable damage such as Lostmauth has, it just needs to be stronger. Pulsating AoE damage without red zone telegraph each 3 secs or so, 10K+ is you're not in an Astral Shield seems fine to me.
This would be just the start, I can imagine numerous ways to make DCs useful in dungeons, in HEALING, while also debuffing/buffing at the same time.
Some players though are just to used to their self-sufficient OP-ness.
Yes exactly, DCs are currently excellent at dealing with sustained damage. Instant kills serves no purpose if you want to have a role for a buffing/healing class (mitigation counts as buffing after all). Let's take karrundax before they nerfed it, after they fixed the "pull the boss to campfire" thing. There were prones, DoTs, range attacks (why would only melees take hits). Was a cleric required? No. Did you want to bring one? Yes.
Prones were a great sweet spot for clerics because other team members couldn't drink potions or use an encounter to get at max HP. I don't know why they removed almost all the dazes and prones from the game (actually I do but it but well it's a lost cause).
To give clerics a role dungeons must have sustained damage, some spike damage, hitting melees and range players, and have many control NPCs because someone will make a mistake, get proned and will have to be kept alive until he can move again. That's why lostmauth is bad it has nothing from that list, it's just stupid instant kills or 100% safety once out of red and out of melee range.
You do realise that by you being there they get double the lifesteal heals? THAT is why they can outheal you. If you were not in party theyd heal half of that amount. A lot of people do not know that about the DC class so just thought I would mention it xD
You make all healing 50% more effect just by being there, dont even need to use the heals to do that - on my DC's I usually run w chains, divine glow and sunburst or the big nuke forget what its called, but it also puts 10% dmg buff on the mobs it hits. DC's add a LOT to a party, but I can agree that they do need stronger healing for sure.
fusionawesomeMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 121Arc User
edited October 2014
All of a sudden there's a lot of talk about DC. DC's are wanted in groups that's not the point, the point is that there is no teamwork needed anymore. I play a lot of sot and i see the CW just run past the first mob too the second mob aggroing everything and killing everything while staying alive, the rest of the group is late to the party hits two times and on to the next mob. HR's and GWF's doing the eSOT boss solo and even got the time too type: "i got this".
When i see threads about new content being too easy that's not true. I have to you use pots now (that hasn't happened in a long time) and even die once in a while because i got 2 shot dodging the wrong way. But when i look at dps classes how they refill there health bar in one encounter they wont die. Maybe the content isn't too easy but some builds are too good.
Teamwork, that's the result that might happen when lifesteal is toned down if only a little and for a D&D game that doesn't sound too much too ask. 5 player content should require 5 players of some kind of diversity. And to be clear i am talking about the new content eSOT and eLOL, that we outgrew old content is normal.
All of a sudden there's a lot of talk about DC. DC's are wanted in groups that's not the point, the point is that there is no teamwork needed anymore. I play a lot of sot and i see the CW just run past the first mob too the second mob aggroing everything and killing everything while staying alive, the rest of the group is late to the party hits two times and on to the next mob. HR's and GWF's doing the eSOT boss solo and even got the time too type: "i got this".
Have to agree with this, the life steal stat as it is is just part of the cause for lack of teamwork in dungeons/groups cos it lets people get away with it. Watching classes like CWs, GWFs and SWs run in ahead into enemies without a healer or tank and be able to survive + kill all the mobs is just not fun for the rest of the group who would like to be helping too. That and the excessive amounts of control that CWs can put down that allow them to attack without much fear of getting attacked back and the amount of damage SWs and CWs do at the moment
No need to remove it completely and I agree SWs using it for healing is fine, altho that they can out perform DCs by such a lot is a sympton of how OP the stat is. I just like balanced parties preferable with some sort of tank (either a GF or GWF) and a healer (DC or SW) where everyone can play their role.
DCs are perfectly capable of keeping a party alive without them needing life steal, but it does ofc depend on the DC player and the rest of the group, whether they understand for example how the DC heals and the best way of allowing him/her to do that in the group. I would disagree with anyone that says DCs shouldnt be a healer class first, but I do agree that they r capable of more than just that in groups as they are also probably the best at buffing the group and debuffing to some extent, tho other classes r capable of this without havin to rely on weapon enchants and a T1 armour set.
I really don't get all those calls for nerfs for basic PvE mechanics. I cannot understand why somebody would call for nerfs only because some classes make better use of lifesteal or regen for that matter. Yeah, I get it that some people want to stack CWs in their parties, some have something against TRs, HRs, DCs or whatever. So what? If you rely on lfg or the queue system in an mmorpg then, imho, there's something wrong with your idea of group forming not the system. Find a group of friends, a guild, join legit, or form your own groups without discrimination - problem solved. And if a CW or SW heals more than your DC on a dungeon chart then so what? does it really matter if you finish a dungeon successfully? Deal with it. I play all classes actively, and always feel I'm contributing to my group's performance even if it doesn't show in the actual charts like paingiver and I don't care because I know the mechanics of buffs/debuffs I'm giving my team when I play support. I cannot understand this nerfcalling for one or the other class and/or aspect of the game when it comes to PvE. It's just dumb in my opinion, but..well..it's just my opinion.
DC's are drama queens. And apparently plenty of people think they are being outhealed, when they are the ones adding +50% healing to the entire party. They think that they are actual healers which isn't the case, instead of supporters to the healing abilities of other classes.
---
I can agree with AOE using classes, having a lot more benefit from lifesteal than others (single target classes) but these people, like i mentioned fail to realize that the DC is the cause for such a great amount of healing, especially when combined with a huge AOE target cap.
But these people will learn, at least someday...
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onecoolscatcatMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 575Arc User
edited October 2014
CWs used to control adds. Then their control powers got nerfed and CWs were forced into being DPS monsters. Not all DCs are drama queens. DCs will evolve to fill whatever role(s) TPTB envision. Hopefully DC changes are on preview after today's patch.
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fusionawesomeMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 121Arc User
DC's are drama queens. And apparently plenty of people think they are being outhealed, when they are the ones adding +50% healing to the entire party. They think that they are actual healers which isn't the case, instead of supporters to the healing abilities of other classes.
Thanks for reading all the posts and continuing the discussion [/sarcasm]
Thanks for reading all the posts and continuing the discussion [/sarcasm]
No problem? Serious now, what's there to discuss? People have pointed out more than once what's going on. If you are able or unable to comprehend the input, is really none of my business and up to you, as well as the other few complainers.
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fusionawesomeMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 121Arc User
No problem? Serious now, what's there to discuss? People have pointed out more than once what's going on. If you are able or unable to comprehend the input, is really none of my business and up to you, as well as the other few complainers.
You are going on and on about DC's. There is no problem with DC's so why talk about it? the opening poster doesn't even have a DC.
We are trying to have a discussion about lifesteal and whether or not it is to much in its current state. Some agree and some don't lets talk about that. The reason i said "thanks for reading" is because i am saying this now for the second time on the same page of this thread.
Comments
i kinda doubt that considering no rogue can self-heal to the extent of aoe classes. even considering single-target self-healing, it's still pretty low and takes like 4 seconds to get off a flurry while other classes can just use an encounter and hit harder for more healing than our encounters.
life-steal is only out-of-control when you aoe for lots of damage, but it's completely reasonable in single-target situations. at the same time, mob spam is also out-of-control so it is probably cancels itself out.
While it might be nice to remove LS and Regen so that uber-geared Dungeon runners have use for DCs and GFs, it will be murder for the average geared player just trying to level and then wade through their dailies. IWD with no LS or Regen? No thanks.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Without lifesteal, DCs could never keep the group alive. We just don't have enough healing. Our main job is to mitigate incoming damage and buff outgoing damage. Healing is a side effect of us doing our jobs. Any group who doesn't want A DC is foolish.
With a GF, there is no CC required. In fact, I try to never run E-Shores without at least one. I'd rather have 1 good GF than 3 CWs in the group.
They can. That's what everyone was doing at launch until mod 2. Of course there were a lot of subpar clerics not doing the job well and that was a common complaint. I've tried healing spells for the lulz lately in epic shores, i've scored 900k healing, which isn't bad for a 7-8 mins instance. My bastion of heal crits for 11k with a few buffs and my healing word can bring people back from almost certain death to full HP in no time.
No.
I don't need another game with healer drama queens.
Theoretically, it's possible to reduce lifesteal without making players dependent on healers, if it's done alongside other balance changes, like increasing the efficacy of the other stats. Marvel Heroes is an example of a game that nerfed lifesteal, and they did so without some of the problems posters in this thread have brought up.
They nerfed lifesteal because it made offensive specs / builds overpowered compared to defensive specs / builds. If the Neverwinter devs have the same concern, I'd suggest two changes:
it would be broken in pvp imagine hr with 30% life steal and 50k hp(dunno how much hp they can get) and 60% deflect lol
That's the only good point against this topic.
So for solo play (and extremely important, for PvP!), LS and Regen need to do their job.
They need some rebalancing for dungeons so you need Tank and Heals. Otherwise people will abuse the system and run stacked FOTM parties instead.
To balance lifesteal, the best solution still would be to lower CW's (and other aoe using classe's) target caps. Because, aoe classes exclusively benefit too much from lifesteal. That way single target classes won't be screwed over just because 2% of the community think that it should require a freaking supporter (DC) for every tiny little bit of content. As for dungeons requiring a tank, it is never going to happen. I pointed out why, long ago already. Tanks slow down the rest of the party, while a conqueror is able to tank semi decent and dish out decent damage, where a tank just stands there, chilling with regeneration and zero dps/burst. Tanks were never needed in the first place and plenty of resources have been wasted on trying to turn the GF class into a brainless party buffer.
So yeah, limit aoe user's lifesteal to one target if it makes the DC's happier. Personally, i wouldnt't want to play a game where i have to have a supporter with me (DC is not a healer, btw), because i can get exactly that in every other xy-mmo out there. (but to each, their own)
Are you using a pvorp? Just wondering
Basically rhough lifesteal is an integral part of the game, and there is now a class for which lifesteal is a main stat - the healing sw, though it is important for fury sws too ofc. Remove lifesteal, and you might as well remove temptation warlocks too.
Mara Angelbane - 22k Thaum CW, Vaya Con Dios 15.2k Dragon CW.
Mara Shadowskiss - 21.5k Destroyer GWF, Mara - 17.2k Sentinel GWF
Mara Duskwalker - 15.4k Healing DC
Mara Hawkeye -14.6k HR
Mara Spiritforge - 16.9k Tanky GF
Bad Religion - 14.7k Pew Pew DC
Mara Shadowstouch,Maara - TR's
Well that's just code so in theory anything is possible. No one said there couldn't be any special lifesteal stat/mechanics for warlocks.
Mara Angelbane - 22k Thaum CW, Vaya Con Dios 15.2k Dragon CW.
Mara Shadowskiss - 21.5k Destroyer GWF, Mara - 17.2k Sentinel GWF
Mara Duskwalker - 15.4k Healing DC
Mara Hawkeye -14.6k HR
Mara Spiritforge - 16.9k Tanky GF
Bad Religion - 14.7k Pew Pew DC
Mara Shadowstouch,Maara - TR's
I don't want them to be needed, I want them to be needed more (I mean, I don't want a party unable to do something if they are strong, but outhealing the "Healer" class?, it's ridiculous).
I get the idea, they want to make an easy dungeon for any composition and casual players and blah blah, but this is just bad... LS shouldn't be so OP...
The thing is that the devs keep seeming to want to do stuff to the DC that tends to shoehorn the DC into a healer role, which many parties don't need. The buff/debuff role isn't rewarded by heroic encounters because it's too hard to measure, and this has been confirmed outright. Upper tier DC gear all has healing set bonuses. The class rework is making two of the feat paths into more defined healers, also confirmed.
Cleric players want to be relevant. That doesn't necessarily mean they want people to be reliant on their heals, except that's the toolkit the devs keep trying to give them.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
DC's aren't healers, they're supporters, pal. Read the entire thread btw, people explained why LS is a bit heavy on AOE using classes.
There's nothing wrong with wanting that.
I play a CW and an HR that could both solo most dungeons in the game, and I have nothing against making dungeon runs hard enough to require a healer, especially the bosses.
This can be achieved quite easily with "aura" type unavoidable damage such as Lostmauth has, it just needs to be stronger. Pulsating AoE damage without red zone telegraph each 3 secs or so, 10K+ is you're not in an Astral Shield seems fine to me.
This would be just the start, I can imagine numerous ways to make DCs useful in dungeons, in HEALING, while also debuffing/buffing at the same time.
Some players though are just to used to their self-sufficient OP-ness.
You do realise that by you being there they get double the lifesteal heals? THAT is why they can outheal you. If you were not in party theyd heal half of that amount. A lot of people do not know that about the DC class so just thought I would mention it xD
You make all healing 50% more effect just by being there, dont even need to use the heals to do that - on my DC's I usually run w chains, divine glow and sunburst or the big nuke forget what its called, but it also puts 10% dmg buff on the mobs it hits. DC's add a LOT to a party, but I can agree that they do need stronger healing for sure.
Mara Angelbane - 22k Thaum CW, Vaya Con Dios 15.2k Dragon CW.
Mara Shadowskiss - 21.5k Destroyer GWF, Mara - 17.2k Sentinel GWF
Mara Duskwalker - 15.4k Healing DC
Mara Hawkeye -14.6k HR
Mara Spiritforge - 16.9k Tanky GF
Bad Religion - 14.7k Pew Pew DC
Mara Shadowstouch,Maara - TR's
Yes exactly, DCs are currently excellent at dealing with sustained damage. Instant kills serves no purpose if you want to have a role for a buffing/healing class (mitigation counts as buffing after all). Let's take karrundax before they nerfed it, after they fixed the "pull the boss to campfire" thing. There were prones, DoTs, range attacks (why would only melees take hits). Was a cleric required? No. Did you want to bring one? Yes.
Prones were a great sweet spot for clerics because other team members couldn't drink potions or use an encounter to get at max HP. I don't know why they removed almost all the dazes and prones from the game (actually I do but it but well it's a lost cause).
To give clerics a role dungeons must have sustained damage, some spike damage, hitting melees and range players, and have many control NPCs because someone will make a mistake, get proned and will have to be kept alive until he can move again. That's why lostmauth is bad it has nothing from that list, it's just stupid instant kills or 100% safety once out of red and out of melee range.
Ok, I fail to see how is my GF able to do that...
When i see threads about new content being too easy that's not true. I have to you use pots now (that hasn't happened in a long time) and even die once in a while because i got 2 shot dodging the wrong way. But when i look at dps classes how they refill there health bar in one encounter they wont die. Maybe the content isn't too easy but some builds are too good.
Teamwork, that's the result that might happen when lifesteal is toned down if only a little and for a D&D game that doesn't sound too much too ask. 5 player content should require 5 players of some kind of diversity. And to be clear i am talking about the new content eSOT and eLOL, that we outgrew old content is normal.
Have to agree with this, the life steal stat as it is is just part of the cause for lack of teamwork in dungeons/groups cos it lets people get away with it. Watching classes like CWs, GWFs and SWs run in ahead into enemies without a healer or tank and be able to survive + kill all the mobs is just not fun for the rest of the group who would like to be helping too. That and the excessive amounts of control that CWs can put down that allow them to attack without much fear of getting attacked back and the amount of damage SWs and CWs do at the moment
No need to remove it completely and I agree SWs using it for healing is fine, altho that they can out perform DCs by such a lot is a sympton of how OP the stat is. I just like balanced parties preferable with some sort of tank (either a GF or GWF) and a healer (DC or SW) where everyone can play their role.
DCs are perfectly capable of keeping a party alive without them needing life steal, but it does ofc depend on the DC player and the rest of the group, whether they understand for example how the DC heals and the best way of allowing him/her to do that in the group. I would disagree with anyone that says DCs shouldnt be a healer class first, but I do agree that they r capable of more than just that in groups as they are also probably the best at buffing the group and debuffing to some extent, tho other classes r capable of this without havin to rely on weapon enchants and a T1 armour set.
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I can agree with AOE using classes, having a lot more benefit from lifesteal than others (single target classes) but these people, like i mentioned fail to realize that the DC is the cause for such a great amount of healing, especially when combined with a huge AOE target cap.
But these people will learn, at least someday...
Thanks for reading all the posts and continuing the discussion [/sarcasm]
No problem? Serious now, what's there to discuss? People have pointed out more than once what's going on. If you are able or unable to comprehend the input, is really none of my business and up to you, as well as the other few complainers.
You are going on and on about DC's. There is no problem with DC's so why talk about it? the opening poster doesn't even have a DC.
We are trying to have a discussion about lifesteal and whether or not it is to much in its current state. Some agree and some don't lets talk about that. The reason i said "thanks for reading" is because i am saying this now for the second time on the same page of this thread.