I had to shorten your nonesense a bit. Enlighten us, please. If what you are saying is fact, why doesn't a GF have TREE tank spec trees? A HR? Why doesn't it have TREE damage dealer specs? Why, doesn't the DC have THREE healing specs? I could go on and on. A DC isn't even a real healer, they are supporters.
What you're saying is that the chihuahua, St.Bernard, and the beagle are different species because they don't look much the same. Heavens, how can they ever be considered the same species when the little traits here and there manifest so differently!!
:rolleyes:
---
This may come off as a shocker, but my GF for example has 42% crit rate, not going to play it as a tank. In short: Stop trying to streamline things to your personal likings, if you don't like Neverwinter, try another mmo. I aswell as the majority of other gamers, am happy that i do not need a healer for every little dungeon/content the game has to offer.
Crock of bullshi*. How you build your offensive stats means squat in terms of role diversion.
You're happy you don't need a healer for every little dungeon content? Tell that to the DCs.
As a matter of fact, your own GF kind are currently utterly worthless in the larger picture: why the hell would anyone want to use a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>-dump of a crit-oriented GF when they can simply take in a GWF or a CW which does both better DPS and better CCs? Oh of course, you've got guildie-slaves to carry you to every content?
Talk about shortsightedness, when the GF is also one of the primary classes to be utterly ignored because of easy-peasy survival in game.
A bigger diversity in character setups/specs is actually what makes Neverwinter shine, in today's BIG, BIG, pile of MMO-<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> (aka.copy/paste mmorpg's.)
Its what makes GWFs and CWs shine, you dimwit. I don't see the majority of GFs, HRs, TRs and DCs shine anywhere else, do you?
Buh, bye.
Yeah, you better run.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
0
fusionawesomeMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 121Arc User
I would cut the curve in half for Lifesteal, or in other words, double the amount of points required to get each % of Lifesteal.
Right now, an easy 1000 points in Lifesteal will get you 8-9%, which is more than enough for most damage dealers to keep themselves alive without the assistance of a cleric. It basically makes "glass cannon" DPS builds the ideal meta since your survivability via lifesteal is directly proportional to the damage you do. More damage equals better survivability.
So change the curve on Lifesteal to make it require a 2000-2500 point investment to be really viable as a means of self-healing. People will have to decide if they want to give up more DPS oriented stats to achieve that higher self-sufficiency, or simply continue with DPS focused builds and then let the cleric do their job.
Right now, point for point, a small investment in Lifesteal produces a huge return. It's a bit out of whack with the other stats.
This.
I don't agree with OP to remove LS but having it cut in half is a good idea, this suggestion makes it you have to choose where you want to focus on. And lets all be fair with 5% LS every dps class in this game would still be more then fine.
TL;DR OP cant play his class so he wants to ruin other classes how neverwinter-like
Some players literately cant play there class because there not invited or get kicked. When i dare to slot healing word i get kicked out of the party. The wanted composition right now is 3xCW, 1 GWF and a DC, that dc is only welcome as buff/debuff.
So are we talking about ruining classes? or are we talking about balance?
Meanwhile your saying that if your 10% LS becomes 5% you cant play anymore, who is the incompetent one?
Damage, Great but we are not a dps class so nice for solo but we probably cant compete when its comes to group content.
And 2x healing so support role. We will see what they will do and we will find out soon.
I would cut the curve in half for Lifesteal, or in other words, double the amount of points required to get each % of Lifesteal.
Right now, an easy 1000 points in Lifesteal will get you 8-9%, which is more than enough for most damage dealers to keep themselves alive without the assistance of a cleric.
A fair idea from ironzerg imo, no need to get rid of the stat completely but as it is it's making important class mechanics like healing for DCs and SWs redundant, and just encourages people to not play with a brain so much cos along with other game mechanics allows them to get away with it.
Clerics do need a rework for sure, but if when playing in a team people remember to stay near the DC or not act recklessly like mass pulls or charging in before some sort of tank then they wouldn't need to rely on life steal so much and having a DC or SW is usually enough to keep people alive; then perhaps people people might appreciate their role in groups more.
Imo CWs are still far too overpowered tho yes (offtopic tho) but that's mainly to broken skills/spells like SS/EOS. That and with PvE mechanics as they are they actually have too much control such that it can make the majority of fights trivial when 1-2 CWs are able to prevent enemies fighting back nearly 100% of the time.
Life Steal just needs to be normalized so that every hit merits the same amount based on LS %.
So say LS can only give a maximum of 20,000 hp at 100%, so you get LS to 10% = 2000 hp with an ICD. Something like that would benefit classes that dont hit hard and often enough to benefit with the current formula.
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
People who use the "don't like it don't use it" argument are the very same who abuse whatever they are discussing.
A lot of people enjoy facerolling PvE and PvP. They don't look for a challenge or to test their skills.
Same people saying KV is fine is the same people who would cry if Glyphs ever got fixed.
Life steal for PvE is broken. I am a combat HR and atm I can facetank even the dragons in epic skirmish without dying and only using at-wills. I have crappy regen though, and for PvP I feel my build is lacking, but I don't play that much anymore anyway.
Something do needs to change. As a combat HR I heal for 30-50k all the time, and 150k is my current best. (and I am tanky PvP build)
This is just another example of different preferences/opinions about gameplay. It's what keeps the devs confused.
I don't personally think regen and life steal are a problem. I think there are much bigger issues for the devs to tackle - mostly the myriad of bugs/glitches that have been around for 6+ months . . .
myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!" pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all." looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
Many people just want to zerg through the content and the easier and faster the better, to them. They don't get the NW is supposed to have class roles that are needed for all group content.
And of course the present dungeon mechanics don't help much either.
I also miss the time when you had to wait hours for a dungeon because a DC was absolutely necessary to get through a dungeon under 10k GS.
The waiting was much more fun than going into a dungeon with a party composition of my choosing, as it can be done now. Actually playing the game is boring. I prefer lingering in the Z Store and spending my money there.
</sarcasm>
Same goes for GF ... it should be beneficial to have a GF and/or DC in a Party, but not necessary as such.
So my answer to the proposal to nerf Regen/LS DON'T DO IT
The problem is that for now DC's are completely useless, and no matter what they do to them, they'll keep being useless because most people can heal themselves with no trouble with Lifesteal.
Unless somehow DC's become monster DPS, they'll never have much utility in dungeons, and people will still prefer to have another DPS.
If you ask me Lifesteal should be a skill for Warlock, not a stat everybody can have. but that's just my (probably unpopular) opinion.
I would cut the curve in half for Lifesteal, or in other words, double the amount of points required to get each % of Lifesteal.
Right now, an easy 1000 points in Lifesteal will get you 8-9%, which is more than enough for most damage dealers to keep themselves alive without the assistance of a cleric. It basically makes "glass cannon" DPS builds the ideal meta since your survivability via lifesteal is directly proportional to the damage you do. More damage equals better survivability.
So change the curve on Lifesteal to make it require a 2000-2500 point investment to be really viable as a means of self-healing. People will have to decide if they want to give up more DPS oriented stats to achieve that higher self-sufficiency, or simply continue with DPS focused builds and then let the cleric do their job.
Right now, point for point, a small investment in Lifesteal produces a huge return. It's a bit out of whack with the other stats.
With endless consumption 5% LS would still be too much and 2k lifesteal a very minor GS investment, considering it's only 10% of the current max GS and 15% of the average GS in-game. It can't be the only change made to lifesteal. I have 1500 on my CW and when endless consumption works on a large NPC pull it's up to 100k HPs back with oppressive force, 50k with ice storm, some nasty 50k from steal time when there's some serious debuffing around, and the list goes on. Cut that in half and it's still more than the max HP of a pve wizard per encounter use.
With endless consumption 5% LS would still be too much and 2k lifesteal a very minor GS investment, considering it's only 10% of the current max GS and 15% of the average GS in-game. It can't be the only change made to lifesteal. I have 1500 on my CW and when endless consumption works on a large NPC pull it's up to 100k HPs back with oppressive force, 50k with ice storm, some nasty 50k from steal time when there's some serious debuffing around, and the list goes on. Cut that in half and it's still more than the max HP of a pve wizard per encounter use.
See, that's the real problem. Some classes deal too much aoe damage. My gf has 3100 LS and it doesn't heal me for 100k's. Maybe CW's need their target caps lowered, so they cannot benefit THAT much from ls anymore? This would bring them back down to earth and on par with the single target classes. GWF also benefit too much from LS, in that case.
Or maybe LS could recover less HP the more targets you hit. (or even a max % of your own HP per attack, no matter how many mobs you hit or how much damage you do. Like an attack can never heal more than 10% of your own HP.
This is just another example of different preferences/opinions about gameplay. It's what keeps the devs confused.
I don't personally think regen and life steal are a problem. I think there are much bigger issues for the devs to tackle - mostly the myriad of bugs/glitches that have been around for 6+ months . . .
..except this is one of those issues where differing preferences each come with a consequence that may negatively or positively effect the game... and as it stands, having "godmode" classes which can do everything in more than average levels, and still be able to survive and sustain itself without much help at all, simply undermines the fundamentals of the game.
As I've mentioned before, things are different in -- for example -- Champions Online, another one of Cryptic's games, which features a fully-customizable character progression/power choice system where literally there are no "roles", not even archetypes (except for non-paying 'silver' level accounts, in which limited freebie archetypes are presented) except for a bit of supplementary tweaking. In this game, literally the "free-form" build is at the center of the game concept. You can be a super-hero with good offense + good defense + self heals. There are no limitations, and thus, not surprisingly, game balance is also a big problem.
In PvE basically it's a team of superheroes that are all self-sustaining, hence the definition of "mutual support" is very different... (realistically speaking, in CO PvE there is no 'cooperation.' It's basically your whole team doing whatever they want in a big zergfest like how it is in field Heroic Encounters of NW).
So, if someone would mention they want differing, distinct role-based system in Champions Online, I'd object to that, because that's not how the game is designed. As much, the opposite applies to NW.
No matter what the excuse the 'godmode' lovers want to present, at the heart of NW is the D&D lore and class/role distinction with different strengths and weaknesses offered. When you build up a self-sustaining godmode character, there are no differences in strengths and weaknesses because there are no weaknesses in the class at all. You build up a DPS centered melee which can tank better than average, and then able to sustain/heal itself without even a single healing support/spell because of regen/LS.
All classes are homgenized because they can do everything and still be able to sustain oneself. They're all the same. Hence, the only real choice for party-building in NW now, is 'Which classes can steamroll content faster?' Why do people not want HRs, GFs, TRs in parties? There's your answer.
Because none of them are really 'needed' - they've got nothing to offer to the party. You can mix up any combination of these 'derelict classes' and still the GWF+CW parties can clear the content faster -- they've got no reason to mix any of them in because they don't need the diverse roles that can help with survival.
No worries to survival, so only thing matters is who has highest DPS and easiest DPS-setup(=CC).
So I ask again, in this type of shi*storm environment, who the hell needs a DC?
Who the hell needs a HR?
Who the hell needs a GF?
Nobody.
Will these suggestions I'm making weaken your favorite class build? Most probably. Heck, it even weakens my own characters. But it that makes it necessary for people to seek out different classes with different roles, then even the dull PvE content may actually become fun enough to enjoy from time to time.
As it is, compared to the heart-pumping, precision timing teamwork PvE content I'm used to in game like City of Heroes. where even normal quests at 'Elite' levels required a good team with good teamwork... NW is basically everyone running around like clueless pups and firing off everything everywhere like a bunch of undisciplined idiots -- and still being able to just steamroll through the PvE content because with enough gear/stat investment, you will not die. Mobs are weak and stupid, players are much too powerful in self-heals.
With the recent BI sets and all the self heals, I can draw up aggro with every visible mob in the quest instance and simply just facetank it with Duelist's Flurry and still be OK. You think that's skill? That ain't no skill. That's playing stupidly, against how the class was originally designed to be played, no stealth, no finesse, no tactics. Just blind, stupid steamrolling and I heal myself so much with LS and Regen + Purified effects, that I can't die.
PvE doesn't require any skill... and to think some people still wonder why PvE is not fun, and why not more people are playing it.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Or maybe LS could recover less HP the more targets you hit. (or even a max % of your own HP per attack, no matter how many mobs you hit or how much damage you do. Like an attack can never heal more than 10% of your own HP.
Yes definitely. Currently I see 4 major issues with how lifeteal works making any kind of support roles unwanted:
- endless consumption. 1000 lifesteal, get 30% of your damage back once every 3 hit or so. No internal cooldown... This thing is madness.
- lifesteal and aoe: the more stuff you pull the more health you will regen. This is a strong incentive to speedrun and run from a door to the next one to aoe all the things at once. Ironically it makes your tanking better.
- the stats investment is minimal.
- in pve the equation is more damage = more survivability as long as lifesteal gives back a linear % of the damage. It makes the game very monotonous, all you see is max dps characters and no one to deal with incoming damage. Stay in red too, who cares, as long as it doesn't kill you and it's not a prone.
Or maybe LS could recover less HP the more targets you hit. (or even a max % of your own HP per attack, no matter how many mobs you hit or how much damage you do. Like an attack can never heal more than 10% of your own HP.
This would be the best solution, i agree. Because as i mentioned, i am stacking LS heavily and i cannot heal myself for 100k+ not even 50k as a GF... Not sure about if a TR can heal for massive amounts but i also doubt it would be on par with what CW's and other aoe oriented classes can heal themselves for.
I also miss the time when you had to wait hours for a dungeon because a DC was absolutely necessary to get through a dungeon under 10k GS.
The game isn't what it is anymore. There are now at least 4 classes you may use as support to heal, reduce incoming damage, or deal with aggro: GF, DC, SW and HR. Yes, even rangers do have strong support spells. Making support required is nowhere near an issue as it used to be when waiting for a DC (i've been there, waiting for 20 mins until a DC pops in) when more than half of the characters in-game can perform the required support tasks.
This would be the best solution, i agree. Because as i mentioned, i am stacking LS heavily and i cannot heal myself for 100k+ not even 50k as a GF... Not sure about if a TR can heal for massive amounts but i also doubt it would be on par with what CW's and other aoe oriented classes can heal themselves for.
Reiwulf for president.
Well regen is better for tanks. That's a well-known fact. No damage = no need for lifesteal. With 3k regen you'd do extremely well. And GFs have other tools to stay alive, iron warrior, the daily spell healing you, the swordmaster class features comes on top of my head. There are others i'm forgetting, i haven't payed my GF in months.
This is a serious thread, not one about fail builds, sorry. The game shouldn't be made/fixed based on the lowest common denominator, bad or weird builds.
Well regen is better for tanks. That's a well-known fact. No damage = no need for lifesteal. With 3k regen you'd do extremely well. And GFs have other tools to stay alive, iron warrior, the daily spell healing you, the swordmaster class features comes on top of my head. There are others i'm forgetting, i haven't payed my GF in months.
This is a serious thread, not one about fail builds, sorry. The game shouldn't be made/fixed based on the lowest common denominator, bad or weird builds.
Sorry, but my GF is not a tank and never will be one. I don't like playing the meatshield. Conqueror all the way. Besides, i got around 1300 regen which is more than enough for my purposes.
Sorry, but my GF is not a tank and never will be one. I don't like playing the meatshield. Conqueror all the way. Besides, i got around 1300 regen which is more than enough for my purposes.
...and why would anyone use your GF in place of a GWF with as much gear/skill as yourself?
Yeppers. Guildies and friendlists are a saving grace for the derelict classes.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Sorry, but my GF is not a tank and never will be one. I don't like playing the meatshield. Conqueror all the way. Besides, i got around 1300 regen which is more than enough for my purposes.
Even my cleric does more damage than a dps tank... Yes seriously. No kidding. I can even offer better control via chains of blazing light.
And tanking in NW isn't about being a meatshield, it's about positioning yourself, positioning npcs, positioning AoEs, and sometimes yes you may have to do some KV or buffing. Standing there taking hits, that's clearly not the main role of the tank.
I've played a GF when everyone was 10k and when tanking was still a thing, and the most useful stuff was in this order: tab, shift, and lunging strike. Other spells didn't matter much. The "tanking" in NW isn't about standing in red facetanking **** when it comes to you it's all about being at the right place at the right time, performing the right action. But it requires some practice, mind you. And the amount of lifesteal you need is 0; as in zilch, nada, nothing.
Even my cleric does more damage than a dps tank... Yes seriously. No kidding. I can even offer better control via chains of blazing light.
And tanking in NW isn't about being a meatshield, it's about positioning yourself, positioning npcs, positioning AoEs, and sometimes yes you may have to do some KV or buffing. Standing there taking hits, that's clearly not the main role of the tank.
I've played a GF when everyone was 10k and when tanking was still a thing, and the most useful stuff was in this order: tab, shift, and lunging strike. Other spells didn't matter much. The "tanking" in NW isn't about standing in red facetanking **** when it comes to you it's all about being at the right place at the right time, performing the right action. But it requires some practice, mind you.
Well, i like being unique. I don't really wanna hop on the brainless KV-spec bandwagen, utilizing reflect builds etc., that require no skill. I avoid pugs, because people nowadays tend to be pretty narrowminded/unintelligent and think that copying the same build that every other not so intelligent gamer uses, instead of actually creating a build on their own, is something to be proud of.
Mind you, if a fully geared CW cannot outdamage my GF, your DC won't be able to, either... Now stop trying to shift topics, the real issue is that some classes benefit too much from LS, due to their aoe not having enough of a target cap. That's a fact. You just shot yourself in the knee, btw.
Well, i like being unique. I don't really wanna hop on the brainless KV-spec bandwagen, utilizing reflect builds etc., that require no skill. I avoid pugs, because people nowadays tend to be pretty narrowminded/unintelligent and think that copying the same build that every other not so intelligent gamer uses, instead of actually creating a build on their own, is something to be proud of.
Mind you, if a fully geared CW cannot outdamage my GF, your DC won't be able to, either... Now stop trying to shift topics, the real issue is that some classes benefit too much from LS, due to their aoe not having enough of a target cap. That's a fact. You just shot yourself in the knee, btw.
Take care.
I agree and maintain that fail builds shouldn't be taken into account if/when the devs have to fix lifesteal.
Side note, damage contest GF vs DC when you want. :cool:
Comments
What you're saying is that the chihuahua, St.Bernard, and the beagle are different species because they don't look much the same. Heavens, how can they ever be considered the same species when the little traits here and there manifest so differently!!
:rolleyes:
---
Crock of bullshi*. How you build your offensive stats means squat in terms of role diversion.
You're happy you don't need a healer for every little dungeon content? Tell that to the DCs.
As a matter of fact, your own GF kind are currently utterly worthless in the larger picture: why the hell would anyone want to use a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>-dump of a crit-oriented GF when they can simply take in a GWF or a CW which does both better DPS and better CCs? Oh of course, you've got guildie-slaves to carry you to every content?
Talk about shortsightedness, when the GF is also one of the primary classes to be utterly ignored because of easy-peasy survival in game.
Its what makes GWFs and CWs shine, you dimwit. I don't see the majority of GFs, HRs, TRs and DCs shine anywhere else, do you?
Yeah, you better run.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Do you really have trouble solo anything?
Get some defense, most of you walk around with 10k power and 1k defense thats the whole point of this conversation.
This.
I don't agree with OP to remove LS but having it cut in half is a good idea, this suggestion makes it you have to choose where you want to focus on. And lets all be fair with 5% LS every dps class in this game would still be more then fine.
Some players literately cant play there class because there not invited or get kicked. When i dare to slot healing word i get kicked out of the party. The wanted composition right now is 3xCW, 1 GWF and a DC, that dc is only welcome as buff/debuff.
So are we talking about ruining classes? or are we talking about balance?
Meanwhile your saying that if your 10% LS becomes 5% you cant play anymore, who is the incompetent one?
and DC will be reworked in next mod
Because you had the same experience once makes it ok?
So if you get robbed, robbery becomes ok and people don't need to cry about it?
And DC rework doesn't change it, maybe they will become best class ever. The fact remains that support role is not needed in this game.
See this quote: "Short version? Clerics are getting two different flavors of healing feats and a full set of damage feats+ Divine Mode rework." Source: https://twitter.com/CrypticGMC/status/509401780803731456
Damage, Great but we are not a dps class so nice for solo but we probably cant compete when its comes to group content.
And 2x healing so support role. We will see what they will do and we will find out soon.
A fair idea from ironzerg imo, no need to get rid of the stat completely but as it is it's making important class mechanics like healing for DCs and SWs redundant, and just encourages people to not play with a brain so much cos along with other game mechanics allows them to get away with it.
melee dps are already in much worse spot than ranged dps
Imo CWs are still far too overpowered tho yes (offtopic tho) but that's mainly to broken skills/spells like SS/EOS. That and with PvE mechanics as they are they actually have too much control such that it can make the majority of fights trivial when 1-2 CWs are able to prevent enemies fighting back nearly 100% of the time.
So say LS can only give a maximum of 20,000 hp at 100%, so you get LS to 10% = 2000 hp with an ICD. Something like that would benefit classes that dont hit hard and often enough to benefit with the current formula.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
A lot of people enjoy facerolling PvE and PvP. They don't look for a challenge or to test their skills.
Same people saying KV is fine is the same people who would cry if Glyphs ever got fixed.
Life steal for PvE is broken. I am a combat HR and atm I can facetank even the dragons in epic skirmish without dying and only using at-wills. I have crappy regen though, and for PvP I feel my build is lacking, but I don't play that much anymore anyway.
Something do needs to change. As a combat HR I heal for 30-50k all the time, and 150k is my current best. (and I am tanky PvP build)
I don't personally think regen and life steal are a problem. I think there are much bigger issues for the devs to tackle - mostly the myriad of bugs/glitches that have been around for 6+ months . . .
myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!"
pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all."
looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
And of course the present dungeon mechanics don't help much either.
The waiting was much more fun than going into a dungeon with a party composition of my choosing, as it can be done now. Actually playing the game is boring. I prefer lingering in the Z Store and spending my money there.
</sarcasm>
Same goes for GF ... it should be beneficial to have a GF and/or DC in a Party, but not necessary as such.
So my answer to the proposal to nerf Regen/LS
DON'T DO IT
Unless somehow DC's become monster DPS, they'll never have much utility in dungeons, and people will still prefer to have another DPS.
If you ask me Lifesteal should be a skill for Warlock, not a stat everybody can have. but that's just my (probably unpopular) opinion.
With endless consumption 5% LS would still be too much and 2k lifesteal a very minor GS investment, considering it's only 10% of the current max GS and 15% of the average GS in-game. It can't be the only change made to lifesteal. I have 1500 on my CW and when endless consumption works on a large NPC pull it's up to 100k HPs back with oppressive force, 50k with ice storm, some nasty 50k from steal time when there's some serious debuffing around, and the list goes on. Cut that in half and it's still more than the max HP of a pve wizard per encounter use.
See, that's the real problem. Some classes deal too much aoe damage. My gf has 3100 LS and it doesn't heal me for 100k's. Maybe CW's need their target caps lowered, so they cannot benefit THAT much from ls anymore? This would bring them back down to earth and on par with the single target classes. GWF also benefit too much from LS, in that case.
..except this is one of those issues where differing preferences each come with a consequence that may negatively or positively effect the game... and as it stands, having "godmode" classes which can do everything in more than average levels, and still be able to survive and sustain itself without much help at all, simply undermines the fundamentals of the game.
As I've mentioned before, things are different in -- for example -- Champions Online, another one of Cryptic's games, which features a fully-customizable character progression/power choice system where literally there are no "roles", not even archetypes (except for non-paying 'silver' level accounts, in which limited freebie archetypes are presented) except for a bit of supplementary tweaking. In this game, literally the "free-form" build is at the center of the game concept. You can be a super-hero with good offense + good defense + self heals. There are no limitations, and thus, not surprisingly, game balance is also a big problem.
In PvE basically it's a team of superheroes that are all self-sustaining, hence the definition of "mutual support" is very different... (realistically speaking, in CO PvE there is no 'cooperation.' It's basically your whole team doing whatever they want in a big zergfest like how it is in field Heroic Encounters of NW).
So, if someone would mention they want differing, distinct role-based system in Champions Online, I'd object to that, because that's not how the game is designed. As much, the opposite applies to NW.
No matter what the excuse the 'godmode' lovers want to present, at the heart of NW is the D&D lore and class/role distinction with different strengths and weaknesses offered. When you build up a self-sustaining godmode character, there are no differences in strengths and weaknesses because there are no weaknesses in the class at all. You build up a DPS centered melee which can tank better than average, and then able to sustain/heal itself without even a single healing support/spell because of regen/LS.
All classes are homgenized because they can do everything and still be able to sustain oneself. They're all the same. Hence, the only real choice for party-building in NW now, is 'Which classes can steamroll content faster?' Why do people not want HRs, GFs, TRs in parties? There's your answer.
Because none of them are really 'needed' - they've got nothing to offer to the party. You can mix up any combination of these 'derelict classes' and still the GWF+CW parties can clear the content faster -- they've got no reason to mix any of them in because they don't need the diverse roles that can help with survival.
No worries to survival, so only thing matters is who has highest DPS and easiest DPS-setup(=CC).
So I ask again, in this type of shi*storm environment, who the hell needs a DC?
Who the hell needs a HR?
Who the hell needs a GF?
Nobody.
Will these suggestions I'm making weaken your favorite class build? Most probably. Heck, it even weakens my own characters. But it that makes it necessary for people to seek out different classes with different roles, then even the dull PvE content may actually become fun enough to enjoy from time to time.
As it is, compared to the heart-pumping, precision timing teamwork PvE content I'm used to in game like City of Heroes. where even normal quests at 'Elite' levels required a good team with good teamwork... NW is basically everyone running around like clueless pups and firing off everything everywhere like a bunch of undisciplined idiots -- and still being able to just steamroll through the PvE content because with enough gear/stat investment, you will not die. Mobs are weak and stupid, players are much too powerful in self-heals.
With the recent BI sets and all the self heals, I can draw up aggro with every visible mob in the quest instance and simply just facetank it with Duelist's Flurry and still be OK. You think that's skill? That ain't no skill. That's playing stupidly, against how the class was originally designed to be played, no stealth, no finesse, no tactics. Just blind, stupid steamrolling and I heal myself so much with LS and Regen + Purified effects, that I can't die.
PvE doesn't require any skill... and to think some people still wonder why PvE is not fun, and why not more people are playing it.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Yes definitely. Currently I see 4 major issues with how lifeteal works making any kind of support roles unwanted:
- endless consumption. 1000 lifesteal, get 30% of your damage back once every 3 hit or so. No internal cooldown... This thing is madness.
- lifesteal and aoe: the more stuff you pull the more health you will regen. This is a strong incentive to speedrun and run from a door to the next one to aoe all the things at once. Ironically it makes your tanking better.
- the stats investment is minimal.
- in pve the equation is more damage = more survivability as long as lifesteal gives back a linear % of the damage. It makes the game very monotonous, all you see is max dps characters and no one to deal with incoming damage. Stay in red too, who cares, as long as it doesn't kill you and it's not a prone.
This would be the best solution, i agree. Because as i mentioned, i am stacking LS heavily and i cannot heal myself for 100k+ not even 50k as a GF... Not sure about if a TR can heal for massive amounts but i also doubt it would be on par with what CW's and other aoe oriented classes can heal themselves for.
Reiwulf for president.
The game isn't what it is anymore. There are now at least 4 classes you may use as support to heal, reduce incoming damage, or deal with aggro: GF, DC, SW and HR. Yes, even rangers do have strong support spells. Making support required is nowhere near an issue as it used to be when waiting for a DC (i've been there, waiting for 20 mins until a DC pops in) when more than half of the characters in-game can perform the required support tasks.
Well regen is better for tanks. That's a well-known fact. No damage = no need for lifesteal. With 3k regen you'd do extremely well. And GFs have other tools to stay alive, iron warrior, the daily spell healing you, the swordmaster class features comes on top of my head. There are others i'm forgetting, i haven't payed my GF in months.
This is a serious thread, not one about fail builds, sorry. The game shouldn't be made/fixed based on the lowest common denominator, bad or weird builds.
Sorry, but my GF is not a tank and never will be one. I don't like playing the meatshield. Conqueror all the way. Besides, i got around 1300 regen which is more than enough for my purposes.
...and why would anyone use your GF in place of a GWF with as much gear/skill as yourself?
Yeppers. Guildies and friendlists are a saving grace for the derelict classes.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Even my cleric does more damage than a dps tank... Yes seriously. No kidding. I can even offer better control via chains of blazing light.
And tanking in NW isn't about being a meatshield, it's about positioning yourself, positioning npcs, positioning AoEs, and sometimes yes you may have to do some KV or buffing. Standing there taking hits, that's clearly not the main role of the tank.
I've played a GF when everyone was 10k and when tanking was still a thing, and the most useful stuff was in this order: tab, shift, and lunging strike. Other spells didn't matter much. The "tanking" in NW isn't about standing in red facetanking **** when it comes to you it's all about being at the right place at the right time, performing the right action. But it requires some practice, mind you. And the amount of lifesteal you need is 0; as in zilch, nada, nothing.
Well, i like being unique. I don't really wanna hop on the brainless KV-spec bandwagen, utilizing reflect builds etc., that require no skill. I avoid pugs, because people nowadays tend to be pretty narrowminded/unintelligent and think that copying the same build that every other not so intelligent gamer uses, instead of actually creating a build on their own, is something to be proud of.
Mind you, if a fully geared CW cannot outdamage my GF, your DC won't be able to, either... Now stop trying to shift topics, the real issue is that some classes benefit too much from LS, due to their aoe not having enough of a target cap. That's a fact. You just shot yourself in the knee, btw.
Take care.
I agree and maintain that fail builds shouldn't be taken into account if/when the devs have to fix lifesteal.
Side note, damage contest GF vs DC when you want. :cool: