Completely disagree with eve writing you said here.
Deep gash will still account for 8-11% of our total damage.
Getting 20 charges is extremely easy, even more if you have WMS.
Old SoTS 45% def = 9-10% more damage, new one is 5%, and non stacking, only real big Nerf
GWF will not be useless, if will be in the right place.
Not sure what "top" GWFs you're asking because we are only losing around 15-20% DPS not 50%.
Sounds to me like you're just making things up.
Sounds to me like you haven't been parsing anything yourself, or even around on preview.
Deep Gash is coming to, at best, seven percent of our damage (Out of myself and six other GWFs whom I know are running tests, now)
Will agree with the charges; why people think that's at all difficult to maintain is beyond me.
But yeah. High-end GWFs with bunches of power are taking at least a thirty-percent hit to their DPS; the higher your power the larger the amount you lose with the Gash changes. Those of us in the six to seven thousand range are only losing about twenty-five to twenty-eight percent of our Deepz from the gash changes.
The fact of the matter is that, at the moment, yes, GWFs /will/ be useless. We're losing a large part of our (passive) dps, which means we're losing a bunch of threat gen and the ability to lifesteal tank efficiently (not effectively, but it will have to be done much more carefully; gone are the days of berserker charges) and they're taking away the only team-debuff we had. So, in any party that can take a CW instead there's no reason to take a GWF (or anything else, as I'm sure you know, but that's not the topic at hand).
Any party looking to maximize speed will, at this point in the projected changes, just default to full Wizards, with possibly a debuff cleric.
Feedback: I'm still advocating an increase to the target cap on, and the removal of damage reduction per target from, all of our At-Wills. Or at least Wicked and Weapon Master Strikes. I feel like it would go quite a ways to keeping the GWF competitive on pve, and would have absolutely no detrimental effect in pvp whatever. Not to mention it would make us feel less like our swords are just magic pieces of cardboard.
It may also be a good idea to reduce the channel time of Avalanche of Steel, or to increase the duration before buffs such as Destroyer and Weapon Master start falling off. As of now, we're in the air long enough during AoS for both of these to fall off before we drop. While it's true that we're also invulnerable, and so take that as a trade off, this feels very counter intuitive to the ability's use as a damage daily.
Effindoza has the point of the situation so im not the only one who thinks that the gwf will be useless compared with a medium geared CW. But my question is another, Why the GWF needs a nerf?. I mean he is not op, he is a the same level of the CW and sometime i see CW with less stats and companion with the same damage or a bit lower then my GWF.
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inthefade462Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2014
Mods can we get some cluttered removed from this thread please. I'm sure it's hard for dev's to find legitimate feedback in this mess.
I've found that the 20 stacks can be maintained indefinitely or pretty much indefinitely in PVE. if you stop fighting for any reason yeah you will lose them but this doesn't happen that often in dungeons. combined with the new destroyer this should provide 20% + 7.5% dmg buff pretty much constantly, as long as you can go unstoppable every 10-15s.
my limited parsing has shown that these 2 buffs stack additively to base dmg, ie base dmg x 1+.2+.075 (total destroyer buff is 19.5%, only 7.5% is new), and while my parsing hasn't shown that its exactly 20% and 7.5% respectively, it's close enough. This is what we are being offered to replace Deep Gash.
So lets break this down.
Lets say the Average GWF currently receives 50% of his dmg dealt from Deep Gash and 50% from all other sources, which varies greatly from IV or SM but lets just say 20% at will, 20% encounter, 5% daily, 5% misc sources. A portion of that misc dmg from things like pet procs, certain feats, etc, do not benefit from dmg buffs but we'll ignore that for now.
DG is now a constant 5% of total dmg, down from 50%. so we're down -45% total dmg.
The remaining 50% dmg we deal from all other non DG sources must make up for this nerf.
The 27.5% situational dmg buff needs to make up for 45% of total dmg, but only applies to 50% of the remaining dmg we deal currently.
50% of our current dmg is being boosted 27.5%, for 63.75% total dmg. Add in the 5% from the new DG, and we arrive at the following:
68.75% of our current live dmg, with perfect management and 100% uptime of the new Destroyer feat changes. This is pretty much exactly how much dmg i'm seeing running dungeons on PTR with the best build i can find. 68-70% of my live dmg.
Keep in mind 50% DG is the Average GWF*, the higher end GWFs who optimized completely for DG, the ones competing with BiS end game CWs, were only doing so by achieving 60-70% of their total dmg from DG. they are hurt the most.
The average GWF, by that I mean PVE spec'd DPS GWF, who receives 40-50% of his dmg from DG is at best doing 70% his currently live dmg on PTR.
Question for Devs:
Is the DPS nerf intended? Or do you feel that the average gwf dmg is fine (which i've seen quoted numerous times around the forums, also the average GWF being capable of achieving roughly 85-95% of the dmg of an equivalent CW), and you are looking for ways of achieving that without empowering the PVP side?
A simple way to do so is to double our target caps to 10 on WMS and Wicked Strike. It has zero impact on PVP and at best (assuming a constant 10 mobs to attack), doubles our at will dmg from these powers, which are currently on PTR 30% of our total dmg, making up for the missing 30% of our dmg still missing with these changes.
This would keep the dmg of the average pve dps gwf equal to what it is on Live (super specialized gwf would still lose out, but there's not much to be done for a missing 70% dmg from losing dg in their case). It is also a double edged sword as GWF must go full glass cannon to achieve this dps and doubling our target cap actually doubles the number of mobs attacking us (those who understand how aggro and mob behavior in this game works understand this concept)
This allows you to keep the Student of the Sword nerf as is, giving us 0 group utility other than initial mob tanking and DPS, discouraging GWF stacking in parties.
Completely disagree with eve writing you said here.
Deep gash will still account for 8-11% of our total damage.
Getting 20 charges is extremely easy, even more if you have WMS.
Old SoTS 45% def = 9-10% more damage, new one is 5%, and non stacking, only real big Nerf
GWF will not be useless, if will be in the right place.
Not sure what "top" GWFs you're asking because we are only losing around 15-20% DPS not 50%.
Sounds to me like you're just making things up.
lol i think you never play GWF high level/power Deep is a huge part of our dps .
This allows you to keep the Student of the Sword nerf as is, giving us 0 group utility other than initial mob tanking and DPS, discouraging GWF stacking in parties.
Wasn't the issue that SoS from different GWFs could stack? If so, wouldn't just preventing it stacking from different GWFs resolve this issue?
Totally agree with you.
But I insist with the devs. We are losting something like 30% of our overall dmg more the defensive attributes that the Sent spec give.
Breaking down, the problem it's not just the dmg but this nerf will be for every GWF a nerf in ofensive and defensive attributes.
despite the "downgrade" in damage of reaping strike (The boost on damage buffs do not seem to compensate for the loss of sos, not even for non critical...but this has already been addressed by others.). in fact this power does not suffer at all with the new stacks system in order that each hit is actually divided into 3. once unstoppable, this Atwill accumulates stacks without any problem (maybe even faster than others atwills ... which is pretty funny).
a lot of u missed one part of deep gash it was improveing crtics a lot for example my wicked could hit 5k-5.6k+crtics ty it and now it cant over 3.4k even if they did not nerf ticks but only block adon to crtic when u crtic we would lose 15% or more dps form it
Effindoza has the point of the situation so im not the only one who thinks that the gwf will be useless compared with a medium geared CW. But my question is another, Why the GWF needs a nerf?. I mean he is not op, he is a the same level of the CW and sometime i see CW with less stats and companion with the same damage or a bit lower then my GWF.
yeah i wonder this to cw still could debuff and do a lot better dps then gwf he lost nothing while we lost only debuff and more then half dps we got
Has anyone parsed how GWF DPS on the Test realm fares against comparably geared HRs (and TRs also, although the TR's intended role is slightly different) as those are the classes the Devs want the GWF to be balanced against?
Admittedly it might be wise to wait after the next set of changes to the HR are implemented.
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zankardMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2014
I'm fine with nerfing DG as it's too powerful for a t1 feat right now. But before you go ahead and do so, you have to consider that this feat is what makes GWFs viable in PVE and helps them deal damage.
I have a pretty high end geared GWF on live (around 9k power) and while I'm pretty used to topping the dps charts most of the time, I've still grouped with some crazy CWs from popular pve guilds and they outdpsed me by a fair margin. I mean, it feels about right. If anything, since the dps GWFs don't really do anything than damage, it would make sense to be the absolute top. Which is not the case even on live.
Now, like i said DG just doesn't look right the way it is on Live. And tanky builds can still have access to it which leads in a lot of whining on pvp too. What I don't get, is why not properly make up for the loss of dps from the DG change? Why nerf the total usefulness of a class? I still remember pre-module 2 days and I'm telling you it wasn't nice. Kind of like the situation the TR is into now, which also has to be fixed. And to end up having a fully geared character only to be useless in the end really breaks it for many people.
The proposed removal of target limits for at-wills might do the trick. I haven't done the math myself to support it, but the devs really should. Or perhaps give us more stuff that play with power, since this is what you are going to be stacking anyway for a dps build, DG or not. Lastly, i think Insti needs some love, it's still a Dest vs Sent thing. Just my 5c
lol i think you never play GWF high level/power Deep is a huge part of our dps .
You're missing the point. Yes I'm aware that our DPS will suffer, but it will still not make the class useless.
CWs will not be getting the SotS so that's a DPS loss for them too. also elite mobs are getting increased control resist, here I'm hoping the 4 CW spaming CC will not completely roll over all dungeons.
It seems to me that you people h have been locked playing your GWF for too long, try another class and realize how extremely OP GWF and CWs are in the paingiver charts. And that's exactly why you think a class that doesn't do 10 billion damage per VT run is useless.
PS: ranger DPS just got halved and CWs will soon get a reality check.
PS: ranger DPS just got halved and CWs will soon get a reality check.
Do you have a link for the Ranger DPS being halved? I thought that they were getting a (IMO un-needed) nerf to Split Shot but in compensation the Devs just announced that other skills would get a buff.
Also, last I checked the Devs had given no timetable for the CW changes. As you specifically mentioned that it was soon could you also provide a link to that please?
Basically what you have done with the deepgash nerf, is ensure no GWF will be doing high end PVE anymore where dps is needed. Tanks are a thing of the past, they are not needed.
That being said, While i understand the changes come from people crying nonstop... It wasnt needed.
What do you propose a Sent and destroyers role be in a dungeon now?
Tanks arent needed, so Senti will be pvp only as they do no dmg.. after this.
Destroyers took a 45-60% dmg nerf with bleeds being pooped on and they cant tank, so no PVE OR pvp for them.
Feedback
We need to collect as much feedback as possible on this so we can tweak the Destroyer and Sentinel trees to better fit their intended roles. Given that, we would like you to categorize and color code your feedback so we can sort it and act on it most effectively! Please use the below format to submit bugs/feedback.
Type: Bug/Feedback (Please only choose one) Spec: (Please enter the spec that you are providing feedback for here)
Please use “Bold” face text for the Type & Spec then type your feedback in the body of your post. If you are listing a bug please have this text in RED, if you are posting an opinion or feedback please use BLUE.
(Concise Feedback & Screen Shots are much appreciated)
Examples: Bug: Destroyer Destroyer’s Purpose didn’t grant stacks while dealing damage.
Feedback: Sentinel I feel like I don’t have enough tools to stay alive under fire now and it makes tanking too hard.
Please try to play for a few hours to get used to the feat changes. Thank you again for all your help Adventurers! We look forward to hearing back from you!
You're missing the point. Yes I'm aware that our DPS will suffer, but it will still not make the class useless.
CWs will not be getting the SotS so that's a DPS loss for them too. also elite mobs are getting increased control resist, here I'm hoping the 4 CW spaming CC will not completely roll over all dungeons.
It seems to me that you people h have been locked playing your GWF for too long, try another class and realize how extremely OP GWF and CWs are in the paingiver charts. And that's exactly why you think a class that doesn't do 10 billion damage per VT run is useless.
PS: ranger DPS just got halved and CWs will soon get a reality check.
As it stands, till they get that "reality check" CN will be 4cw and 1 DC. So you better own a wiz. HRs can put out a crapton as well. Thats being changed. Soon CN will only be run by people who can put out insane dmg.... and once they nerf wiz.... CN will be unused as noone will want to spend hours on end farming a dungeon with low dmg output.
Endboss in CN requires CC.. Limit the targets wiz can cc? They will take more of them. Less of you.
The issue stems from the dungeons, and how this game is designed.
You dont need a tank, So if you cant DPS and you cant CC, you dont go to high end dungeon farming groups. GWF senti or otherwise will both not be going after this goes live.
TRs are only useful in pvp. Hunters on live are good dps, as are wiz and gwfs. DCs have their role. So if GWFs arent a dps class, and tanks arent needed... .what would they like us to be doing.
I'm fine with nerfing DG as it's too powerful for a t1 feat right now. But before you go ahead and do so, you have to consider that this feat is what makes GWFs viable in PVE and helps them deal damage.
I have a pretty high end geared GWF on live (around 9k power) and while I'm pretty used to topping the dps charts most of the time, I've still grouped with some crazy CWs from popular pve guilds and they outdpsed me by a fair margin. I mean, it feels about right. If anything, since the dps GWFs don't really do anything than damage, it would make sense to be the absolute top. Which is not the case even on live.
Now, like i said DG just doesn't look right the way it is on Live. And tanky builds can still have access to it which leads in a lot of whining on pvp too. What I don't get, is why not properly make up for the loss of dps from the DG change? Why nerf the total usefulness of a class? I still remember pre-module 2 days and I'm telling you it wasn't nice. Kind of like the situation the TR is into now, which also has to be fixed. And to end up having a fully geared character only to be useless in the end really breaks it for many people.
The proposed removal of target limits for at-wills might do the trick. I haven't done the math myself to support it, but the devs really should. Or perhaps give us more stuff that play with power, since this is what you are going to be stacking anyway for a dps build, DG or not. Lastly, i think Insti needs some love, it's still a Dest vs Sent thing. Just my 5c
As it stands, till they get that "reality check" CN will be 4cw and 1 DC. So you better own a wiz. HRs can put out a crapton as well. Thats being changed. Soon CN will only be run by people who can put out insane dmg.... and once they nerf wiz.... CN will be unused as noone will want to spend hours on end farming a dungeon with low dmg output.
Endboss in CN requires CC.. Limit the targets wiz can cc? They will take more of them. Less of you.
As things currently stand on the Test Realm this is true.
BUT this only occurs because the other classes lack the DPS and survivability to be able to do CN themselves. If, for instance, the other classes such as the HR and GF were boosted to where the GWF currently stands on Live then everyone would be happy (well maybe not TRs ).
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effindozaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 6Arc User
Has anyone parsed how GWF DPS on the Test realm fares against comparably geared HRs (and TRs also, although the TR's intended role is slightly different) as those are the classes the Devs want the GWF to be balanced against?
Admittedly it might be wise to wait after the next set of changes to the HR are implemented.
You make a fairly good point, but no. I do not presently have any parse runs for this. Not enough, anyway. Will see about getting on that.
Not that it really matters. TRs and HRs can offer a team (assume Wizard nerfs come in, eventually) a good load of Utility in addition to the dps that they put out. TRs, for example, can keep their team in an early boss fight through clever use of their skills and stealth, should multiple members die, in order to avoid a true wipe.
Rangers are capable of buffing several teammates through their Encounters and class features, and can even offer a single Ally a chance to dodge many incoming attacks for a good duration.
Even GFs have better utility than we do, through their hard taunt (this, of course, assuming an equal playing field, better threat management from the Devs [pfft yahrite], and the nerfs to GWF and CW).
But, with all classes being equal and possessing their own niche, a GWF should be able to outdamage members of the other classes with relative ease. Should it be impossible for us to be surpassed by Wizards, rangers, or even Rogues of similar Gear score and skill? Not necessarily, but you have to realize that we bring almost literally /no/ utility to a party. While we have plenty of 'utility' spells, they either just aren't worth it, aren't good enough to put on our bar, focus on self-utility over team-utility, or are on our bar because their damage outshines their utility. For example....
Avalanche of Steel: Prones, with no target cap, and makes us temporarily invulnerable. However, it has a cast time equal to or greater than that of Arcane Singularity, but has a shorter CC effect. Damage and Self-utility outshine the perceived utility to the team.
Slam: Slows five targets over several seconds, allows the user to use encounters and at-wills as normal. Unfortunately, if we aren't doing competitive or top dps, the slow doesn't go a very long way towards protecting our allies as Slam, itself, has been nerfed and doesn't do enough extra damage to take aggro back from a Guardian Fighter or a live CW. In this instance, the fact that you can still use your other abilities, as well as the fact that it procs trample the fallen for Iron Vanguards outshines its team utility.
Restoring Strike: Restores health and Stamina. Only provides utility to yourself, this won't be getting you a slot in parties.
Takedown: Prones, but is single target at melee range. Similar to Restoring Strike, this won't be getting you a slot in parties.
Daring Shout: Admittedly this seems better than I initially thought. Marks, and increases your determination for, each target it hits(can anyone confirm the target cap, here?). Additionally, it increases your Damage Resistance based how powerful these targets are, and the marked targets have their own Damage Resistance reduced for a short period...or until they 'attack.' you. And therein lies the problem, as attack is a bit vague. They don't have to attack you, specifically, as their target. They just have to hit you. So if an ally moves out of the way, or you get caught in the red circle of a marked mob, then they instantly lose the debuff. So, again, the utility to yourself outweighs the utility to your team; though this point is moot, anyway, as even very few sentinels take this on their bar, as it does no damage unless feated. And even then, the damage is negligible.
Come and Get It: Probably the class favorite of our 'true' utility spells; I don't think there's a GWF above four thousand Gear Score that doesn't know what this one does. Just in case, though, it draws in near-by monsters (so long as they aren't immune, even though it doesn't interrupt. Wut.), and....grants a buff (of approximately thirty percent) to your next attack. So, while the team utility /is/ useful it's also out shined by similar spells in the CW and HR kits (admittedly, two of these spells are dailies) and we're primarily using it to make hitting the bad guys easier on ourselves.
Frontline Surge: Available only to Iron Vanguards, but knocks back and prones up to five enemies. Now, while the Crowd Control provides some decent utility in protecting our squishier allies the knockback portion also has the potential to inadvertently mess up the rotations of the same party members. Thus the utility is only 50/50 if you aren't aware of all of your allies at a given time. Plus, let's face it, we put it on the bar for the damage. Still rather useful, though.
Flourish: Available only to Sword Masters, but provides a (very short stun). Unfortunately, the only way to increase the duration of this stun to 'useful' is through the Instigator tree, and the feat only adds an additional second. Coupled with the prohibitively long animation and cooldown, this ruins the utility of the encounter and most Sword Masters take this for the damage or not at all.
Battle Fury: Decent utility, increases our own AP gain as well as encounter and at-will damage, and offers a quarter of these benefits to our entire team. A bit difficult to slot, however, unless you aren't accustomed to running Come and Get It or Restoring Strike in your third slot; I have pretty much nothing negative to say about this.
TL;DR: When being balanced against the rumored nerfs to Wizards, and the present state of the other classes, Great Weapon Fighters should be coming out ahead of them all in damage, due to a severe lack of utility offered to the team. Not by such an impenetrable gap to exclude the others and favor four of five GWFs over a "rainbow comp," as it were, but by enough that similarly geared members of any of the other classes should have to put forth some decent effort to get on top of us.
This is, of course, my own personal opinion. I have less experience with MMOs and with NWO than many other GWFs, so I may be missing something here. But, short of some one else stepping in and telling me, I can't say that I see what it might be.
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inthefade462Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2014
until said rumored nerf to CW hits PTR, it isn't happening. Since they have no work done on it, expect Mod 4 at the earliest, which means balancing classes for an alleged CW nerf is foolish.
None of these mod 3 nerfs should happen until the CW nerf also happens, the CW nerf should happen first. CWs will always have at least 1 spot in groups due to massive debuffs and control. If they don't return their ap and control from previous nerfs, they'll always have 2 spots in groups, even if they deal no dmg. The previous ap/control nerfs should be reversed and their dmg drastically reduced. There is no reason they should be anywhere above #4 or #5 on paingiver.
why dont they start with fixing gwf at-will damage, tr with their toothpicks do 2~3x our damage per hit, our at-will damage is lower than weapon damage ffs, if the damage was that of at-will + old deep gash proc ~ 2k it would be fine and balance from there, at least that would make some use of instigator as at-will based sustained damage pve dps choice(would require change of that trash capstone though), destro as encounter based dps pvp/pve choice and sent as tank, would also give sent some damage so they can focus on support encounters.
cw nerf is a laugh, cw is broken op in pve for ages, what did they nerf ? some useless skills that made run slower for about everybody who can do damage ?
or maybe they want to fix cw pvp that way - make everybody play cw so there arent "op" classes they cant facetank
Paladin Master Race
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
The previous ap/control nerfs should be reversed and their dmg drastically reduced. There is no reason they should be anywhere above #4 or #5 on paingiver.
Yeah sure, you'd like having some singbotting machines so you can top DPS all time eh?
There's also no reason that (your) GWF should be above No. 6 then? Since other GWFs were way more reasonable.
Now to be more serious.
Any DPS class, specced correctly for DAMAGE, should be able to top paingiver. CW is CC&DPS. GWF is Tank&DPS. Both of these classes can be specced for pure DPS or whatever combination.
If they spec for pure DPS, they should be neck in neck as they are in live now - this works just right.
Not CW's fault the devs decided to nerf you, stop taking your frustrations out on the CW class. Rage at the developers instead.
Also from what I heard (from the mouth of a great GWF), the actual damage reduction on Preview is more like 10%, if GWF specs purely DPS. This is very unfortunate still, but it's not our fault it happened.
Also from what I heard (from the mouth of a great GWF), the actual damage reduction on Preview is more like 10%, if GWF specs purely DPS.
Could you have him (or her) provide parses both for Live and Test Realms for CN please, as the ones we have so far indicate a loss of 40+% for top end GWFs?
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inthefade462Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Also from what I heard (from the mouth of a great GWF), the actual damage reduction on Preview is more like 10%, if GWF specs purely DPS. This is very unfortunate still, but it's not our fault it happened.
your gwf friend fails at math.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Could you have him (or her) provide parses both for Live and Test Realms for CN please, as the ones we have so far indicate a loss of 40+% for top end GWFs?
I'll actually ask him that we run a partial CN together later on, and plan to fraps it maybe, also ACT.
I'll actually ask him that we run a partial CN together later on, and plan to fraps it maybe, also ACT.
That sounds great - the more info the Devs have the better. Any chance of doing comparable runs on both the Test server and Live? Also if your friend wouldn't mind letting us know his/her build and gear that would be extremely helpful also.
That sounds great - the more info the Devs have the better. Any chance of doing comparable runs on both the Test server and Live? Also if your friend wouldn't mind letting us know his/her build and gear that would be extremely helpful also.
u not gona belive to test of ppl who wanted gwf nerfed they most likley will even let it win paingiver so devs can see how gwf is great and cw do not need nerf at all....
You will need to answer every possible bluff? the pers himself said in another topic that does not use dps spec. (and honestly I do not understand this post, he knows very well the mechanics of the game to know that the destroyer is just not doing much less damage in pve, as doing more damage in pvp)
if the dev is aware that gwf doing MUCH less damage, it will make the necessary changes (all been given the possible feedback).
if he thinks not, whatever that is based on, the game will never be balanced so not worth being played.
if he knows that gwf doing much less damage, but is "ok" <then again this game will never be balanced, so not worth being played.
Comments
For destroyer's purpouse 20 secs and 20 stacks are just too much, i tried on the ptr so i know what im saying.
SotS doesnt debuff for the team anymore so its almost useless.
Sounds like you are new to the game.
Sounds to me like you haven't been parsing anything yourself, or even around on preview.
Deep Gash is coming to, at best, seven percent of our damage (Out of myself and six other GWFs whom I know are running tests, now)
Will agree with the charges; why people think that's at all difficult to maintain is beyond me.
But yeah. High-end GWFs with bunches of power are taking at least a thirty-percent hit to their DPS; the higher your power the larger the amount you lose with the Gash changes. Those of us in the six to seven thousand range are only losing about twenty-five to twenty-eight percent of our Deepz from the gash changes.
The fact of the matter is that, at the moment, yes, GWFs /will/ be useless. We're losing a large part of our (passive) dps, which means we're losing a bunch of threat gen and the ability to lifesteal tank efficiently (not effectively, but it will have to be done much more carefully; gone are the days of berserker charges) and they're taking away the only team-debuff we had. So, in any party that can take a CW instead there's no reason to take a GWF (or anything else, as I'm sure you know, but that's not the topic at hand).
Any party looking to maximize speed will, at this point in the projected changes, just default to full Wizards, with possibly a debuff cleric.
Feedback: I'm still advocating an increase to the target cap on, and the removal of damage reduction per target from, all of our At-Wills. Or at least Wicked and Weapon Master Strikes. I feel like it would go quite a ways to keeping the GWF competitive on pve, and would have absolutely no detrimental effect in pvp whatever. Not to mention it would make us feel less like our swords are just magic pieces of cardboard.
It may also be a good idea to reduce the channel time of Avalanche of Steel, or to increase the duration before buffs such as Destroyer and Weapon Master start falling off. As of now, we're in the air long enough during AoS for both of these to fall off before we drop. While it's true that we're also invulnerable, and so take that as a trade off, this feels very counter intuitive to the ability's use as a damage daily.
I've found that the 20 stacks can be maintained indefinitely or pretty much indefinitely in PVE. if you stop fighting for any reason yeah you will lose them but this doesn't happen that often in dungeons. combined with the new destroyer this should provide 20% + 7.5% dmg buff pretty much constantly, as long as you can go unstoppable every 10-15s.
my limited parsing has shown that these 2 buffs stack additively to base dmg, ie base dmg x 1+.2+.075 (total destroyer buff is 19.5%, only 7.5% is new), and while my parsing hasn't shown that its exactly 20% and 7.5% respectively, it's close enough. This is what we are being offered to replace Deep Gash.
So lets break this down.
Lets say the Average GWF currently receives 50% of his dmg dealt from Deep Gash and 50% from all other sources, which varies greatly from IV or SM but lets just say 20% at will, 20% encounter, 5% daily, 5% misc sources. A portion of that misc dmg from things like pet procs, certain feats, etc, do not benefit from dmg buffs but we'll ignore that for now.
DG is now a constant 5% of total dmg, down from 50%. so we're down -45% total dmg.
The remaining 50% dmg we deal from all other non DG sources must make up for this nerf.
The 27.5% situational dmg buff needs to make up for 45% of total dmg, but only applies to 50% of the remaining dmg we deal currently.
50% of our current dmg is being boosted 27.5%, for 63.75% total dmg. Add in the 5% from the new DG, and we arrive at the following:
68.75% of our current live dmg, with perfect management and 100% uptime of the new Destroyer feat changes. This is pretty much exactly how much dmg i'm seeing running dungeons on PTR with the best build i can find. 68-70% of my live dmg.
Keep in mind 50% DG is the Average GWF*, the higher end GWFs who optimized completely for DG, the ones competing with BiS end game CWs, were only doing so by achieving 60-70% of their total dmg from DG. they are hurt the most.
The average GWF, by that I mean PVE spec'd DPS GWF, who receives 40-50% of his dmg from DG is at best doing 70% his currently live dmg on PTR.
Question for Devs:
Is the DPS nerf intended? Or do you feel that the average gwf dmg is fine (which i've seen quoted numerous times around the forums, also the average GWF being capable of achieving roughly 85-95% of the dmg of an equivalent CW), and you are looking for ways of achieving that without empowering the PVP side?
A simple way to do so is to double our target caps to 10 on WMS and Wicked Strike. It has zero impact on PVP and at best (assuming a constant 10 mobs to attack), doubles our at will dmg from these powers, which are currently on PTR 30% of our total dmg, making up for the missing 30% of our dmg still missing with these changes.
This would keep the dmg of the average pve dps gwf equal to what it is on Live (super specialized gwf would still lose out, but there's not much to be done for a missing 70% dmg from losing dg in their case). It is also a double edged sword as GWF must go full glass cannon to achieve this dps and doubling our target cap actually doubles the number of mobs attacking us (those who understand how aggro and mob behavior in this game works understand this concept)
This allows you to keep the Student of the Sword nerf as is, giving us 0 group utility other than initial mob tanking and DPS, discouraging GWF stacking in parties.
lol i think you never play GWF high level/power Deep is a huge part of our dps .
Wasn't the issue that SoS from different GWFs could stack? If so, wouldn't just preventing it stacking from different GWFs resolve this issue?
Totally agree with you.
But I insist with the devs. We are losting something like 30% of our overall dmg more the defensive attributes that the Sent spec give.
Breaking down, the problem it's not just the dmg but this nerf will be for every GWF a nerf in ofensive and defensive attributes.
Fixing my own misinformation.
despite the "downgrade" in damage of reaping strike (The boost on damage buffs do not seem to compensate for the loss of sos, not even for non critical...but this has already been addressed by others.). in fact this power does not suffer at all with the new stacks system in order that each hit is actually divided into 3. once unstoppable, this Atwill accumulates stacks without any problem (maybe even faster than others atwills ... which is pretty funny).
yeah i wonder this to cw still could debuff and do a lot better dps then gwf he lost nothing while we lost only debuff and more then half dps we got
Admittedly it might be wise to wait after the next set of changes to the HR are implemented.
I have a pretty high end geared GWF on live (around 9k power) and while I'm pretty used to topping the dps charts most of the time, I've still grouped with some crazy CWs from popular pve guilds and they outdpsed me by a fair margin. I mean, it feels about right. If anything, since the dps GWFs don't really do anything than damage, it would make sense to be the absolute top. Which is not the case even on live.
Now, like i said DG just doesn't look right the way it is on Live. And tanky builds can still have access to it which leads in a lot of whining on pvp too. What I don't get, is why not properly make up for the loss of dps from the DG change? Why nerf the total usefulness of a class? I still remember pre-module 2 days and I'm telling you it wasn't nice. Kind of like the situation the TR is into now, which also has to be fixed. And to end up having a fully geared character only to be useless in the end really breaks it for many people.
The proposed removal of target limits for at-wills might do the trick. I haven't done the math myself to support it, but the devs really should. Or perhaps give us more stuff that play with power, since this is what you are going to be stacking anyway for a dps build, DG or not. Lastly, i think Insti needs some love, it's still a Dest vs Sent thing. Just my 5c
Relentless Battle Fury dose not give 25% less cd to encounter
both of this feats give some 18-20% cd reduction not 25%
CWs will not be getting the SotS so that's a DPS loss for them too. also elite mobs are getting increased control resist, here I'm hoping the 4 CW spaming CC will not completely roll over all dungeons.
It seems to me that you people h have been locked playing your GWF for too long, try another class and realize how extremely OP GWF and CWs are in the paingiver charts. And that's exactly why you think a class that doesn't do 10 billion damage per VT run is useless.
PS: ranger DPS just got halved and CWs will soon get a reality check.
Do you have a link for the Ranger DPS being halved? I thought that they were getting a (IMO un-needed) nerf to Split Shot but in compensation the Devs just announced that other skills would get a buff.
Also, last I checked the Devs had given no timetable for the CW changes. As you specifically mentioned that it was soon could you also provide a link to that please?
That being said, While i understand the changes come from people crying nonstop... It wasnt needed.
What do you propose a Sent and destroyers role be in a dungeon now?
Tanks arent needed, so Senti will be pvp only as they do no dmg.. after this.
Destroyers took a 45-60% dmg nerf with bleeds being pooped on and they cant tank, so no PVE OR pvp for them.
As it stands, till they get that "reality check" CN will be 4cw and 1 DC. So you better own a wiz. HRs can put out a crapton as well. Thats being changed. Soon CN will only be run by people who can put out insane dmg.... and once they nerf wiz.... CN will be unused as noone will want to spend hours on end farming a dungeon with low dmg output.
Endboss in CN requires CC.. Limit the targets wiz can cc? They will take more of them. Less of you.
You dont need a tank, So if you cant DPS and you cant CC, you dont go to high end dungeon farming groups. GWF senti or otherwise will both not be going after this goes live.
TRs are only useful in pvp. Hunters on live are good dps, as are wiz and gwfs. DCs have their role. So if GWFs arent a dps class, and tanks arent needed... .what would they like us to be doing.
As things currently stand on the Test Realm this is true.
BUT this only occurs because the other classes lack the DPS and survivability to be able to do CN themselves. If, for instance, the other classes such as the HR and GF were boosted to where the GWF currently stands on Live then everyone would be happy (well maybe not TRs
You make a fairly good point, but no. I do not presently have any parse runs for this. Not enough, anyway. Will see about getting on that.
Not that it really matters. TRs and HRs can offer a team (assume Wizard nerfs come in, eventually) a good load of Utility in addition to the dps that they put out. TRs, for example, can keep their team in an early boss fight through clever use of their skills and stealth, should multiple members die, in order to avoid a true wipe.
Rangers are capable of buffing several teammates through their Encounters and class features, and can even offer a single Ally a chance to dodge many incoming attacks for a good duration.
Even GFs have better utility than we do, through their hard taunt (this, of course, assuming an equal playing field, better threat management from the Devs [pfft yahrite], and the nerfs to GWF and CW).
But, with all classes being equal and possessing their own niche, a GWF should be able to outdamage members of the other classes with relative ease. Should it be impossible for us to be surpassed by Wizards, rangers, or even Rogues of similar Gear score and skill? Not necessarily, but you have to realize that we bring almost literally /no/ utility to a party. While we have plenty of 'utility' spells, they either just aren't worth it, aren't good enough to put on our bar, focus on self-utility over team-utility, or are on our bar because their damage outshines their utility. For example....
Avalanche of Steel: Prones, with no target cap, and makes us temporarily invulnerable. However, it has a cast time equal to or greater than that of Arcane Singularity, but has a shorter CC effect. Damage and Self-utility outshine the perceived utility to the team.
Slam: Slows five targets over several seconds, allows the user to use encounters and at-wills as normal. Unfortunately, if we aren't doing competitive or top dps, the slow doesn't go a very long way towards protecting our allies as Slam, itself, has been nerfed and doesn't do enough extra damage to take aggro back from a Guardian Fighter or a live CW. In this instance, the fact that you can still use your other abilities, as well as the fact that it procs trample the fallen for Iron Vanguards outshines its team utility.
Restoring Strike: Restores health and Stamina. Only provides utility to yourself, this won't be getting you a slot in parties.
Takedown: Prones, but is single target at melee range. Similar to Restoring Strike, this won't be getting you a slot in parties.
Daring Shout: Admittedly this seems better than I initially thought. Marks, and increases your determination for, each target it hits(can anyone confirm the target cap, here?). Additionally, it increases your Damage Resistance based how powerful these targets are, and the marked targets have their own Damage Resistance reduced for a short period...or until they 'attack.' you. And therein lies the problem, as attack is a bit vague. They don't have to attack you, specifically, as their target. They just have to hit you. So if an ally moves out of the way, or you get caught in the red circle of a marked mob, then they instantly lose the debuff. So, again, the utility to yourself outweighs the utility to your team; though this point is moot, anyway, as even very few sentinels take this on their bar, as it does no damage unless feated. And even then, the damage is negligible.
Come and Get It: Probably the class favorite of our 'true' utility spells; I don't think there's a GWF above four thousand Gear Score that doesn't know what this one does. Just in case, though, it draws in near-by monsters (so long as they aren't immune, even though it doesn't interrupt. Wut.), and....grants a buff (of approximately thirty percent) to your next attack. So, while the team utility /is/ useful it's also out shined by similar spells in the CW and HR kits (admittedly, two of these spells are dailies) and we're primarily using it to make hitting the bad guys easier on ourselves.
Frontline Surge: Available only to Iron Vanguards, but knocks back and prones up to five enemies. Now, while the Crowd Control provides some decent utility in protecting our squishier allies the knockback portion also has the potential to inadvertently mess up the rotations of the same party members. Thus the utility is only 50/50 if you aren't aware of all of your allies at a given time. Plus, let's face it, we put it on the bar for the damage. Still rather useful, though.
Flourish: Available only to Sword Masters, but provides a (very short stun). Unfortunately, the only way to increase the duration of this stun to 'useful' is through the Instigator tree, and the feat only adds an additional second. Coupled with the prohibitively long animation and cooldown, this ruins the utility of the encounter and most Sword Masters take this for the damage or not at all.
Battle Fury: Decent utility, increases our own AP gain as well as encounter and at-will damage, and offers a quarter of these benefits to our entire team. A bit difficult to slot, however, unless you aren't accustomed to running Come and Get It or Restoring Strike in your third slot; I have pretty much nothing negative to say about this.
TL;DR: When being balanced against the rumored nerfs to Wizards, and the present state of the other classes, Great Weapon Fighters should be coming out ahead of them all in damage, due to a severe lack of utility offered to the team. Not by such an impenetrable gap to exclude the others and favor four of five GWFs over a "rainbow comp," as it were, but by enough that similarly geared members of any of the other classes should have to put forth some decent effort to get on top of us.
This is, of course, my own personal opinion. I have less experience with MMOs and with NWO than many other GWFs, so I may be missing something here. But, short of some one else stepping in and telling me, I can't say that I see what it might be.
None of these mod 3 nerfs should happen until the CW nerf also happens, the CW nerf should happen first. CWs will always have at least 1 spot in groups due to massive debuffs and control. If they don't return their ap and control from previous nerfs, they'll always have 2 spots in groups, even if they deal no dmg. The previous ap/control nerfs should be reversed and their dmg drastically reduced. There is no reason they should be anywhere above #4 or #5 on paingiver.
cw nerf is a laugh, cw is broken op in pve for ages, what did they nerf ? some useless skills that made run slower for about everybody who can do damage ?
or maybe they want to fix cw pvp that way - make everybody play cw so there arent "op" classes they cant facetank
Yeah sure, you'd like having some singbotting machines so you can top DPS all time eh?
There's also no reason that (your) GWF should be above No. 6 then? Since other GWFs were way more reasonable.
Now to be more serious.
Any DPS class, specced correctly for DAMAGE, should be able to top paingiver. CW is CC&DPS. GWF is Tank&DPS. Both of these classes can be specced for pure DPS or whatever combination.
If they spec for pure DPS, they should be neck in neck as they are in live now - this works just right.
Not CW's fault the devs decided to nerf you, stop taking your frustrations out on the CW class. Rage at the developers instead.
Also from what I heard (from the mouth of a great GWF), the actual damage reduction on Preview is more like 10%, if GWF specs purely DPS. This is very unfortunate still, but it's not our fault it happened.
Could you have him (or her) provide parses both for Live and Test Realms for CN please, as the ones we have so far indicate a loss of 40+% for top end GWFs?
I'll actually ask him that we run a partial CN together later on, and plan to fraps it maybe, also ACT.
That sounds great - the more info the Devs have the better. Any chance of doing comparable runs on both the Test server and Live? Also if your friend wouldn't mind letting us know his/her build and gear that would be extremely helpful also.
could not agree more
u not gona belive to test of ppl who wanted gwf nerfed they most likley will even let it win paingiver so devs can see how gwf is great and cw do not need nerf at all....
if the dev is aware that gwf doing MUCH less damage, it will make the necessary changes (all been given the possible feedback).
if he thinks not, whatever that is based on, the game will never be balanced so not worth being played.
if he knows that gwf doing much less damage, but is "ok" <then again this game will never be balanced, so not worth being played.
is simple.