well i tested lil out on dread ring found deep gash doing about 160 a hit on golums (armour pen dosnt effect it even now)after id gone and speced to destroyer to get that added damage (runing destroyer and tample the fallen class encounters with 10 points in sentinel to get battle trample, then i tested it in new zone against some of the new enemys and found it doing like 120 a tic vs giants, long story short i droped it all together in favour of the upto 30% damage on IBS, the silver lining of this masive reduction in my aoe and therefore treat holding in dungeons is my IBS now can crit for almost 2x what it used to and takedown crits up to 15k without any team buffing so i forsee me being a bit beter at bursting ppl in pvp(used to crit for like 4-5k) but over all even as a 15k gwf(used to be 14.6, destoryer offers more gs increasing feats then sent) my AOE damage has gone down 50-80% my single target has almost doubled though.
as for wepon enchants a destroyer and theres only goign to be destroyers even moderatly viable as "tank" specs due to needs a certain amount of damage to be top of agro list there not going to be able to stack crit past about 36% i have a full dex elf with 3000+ crit and its 36% so u devide vorperals damage by about 3 and u find its less consistant damage then say lightning, whats its necisery for is geting those spikes to put yourself at the top of the agro list, which is steadly becoming harder and harder for any "tank" to do
so it may not make endbosses quite as hard as id feared althow lacking student of sword and remebering i was geting out dps'ed 3-4 fold but fully setup CW or destroyer gwf before nurf and 2 fold by lower geared destroyers its going to make it very hard to get a group except amoungst friends and with no team utility atall very little ability to hold agro via threat being based solely on dps+threat modifyers ill be able to tank maybe 1 enemy out of a group.
CW will be tanking the rest(and lets face it someone has to or u wipe), on + side i lost like 7% mitigation 10% deflect 7.5% crit and almost doubled my base damage so i should hit quite a bit beter in pvp and with unstopable coming from damage control and damage received now i should be cc immune quite a bit more, but full sentinel is now totaly unviable for pve, even my 12k cw's smoulder crit hits for 900+ damage so deep gash is never going to hold agro and with my target caps im never going to hit enuff targets often enuff to not have most of room chasing dps, i may be able to tank 1 or 2 enemys from a group the rest will be being dealt with by cw, im not callign for a nurf on CW though id like to see classes buffed so ppl arnt forced to take 3 or 4 cw and then 1 tag along , yes some ppl that already have all there gear find content to easy, but the 98% that dont often strugle still your time "balancing" would have been beter spent making a 18Kgs+ epic dungeon then the ppl that wont be to badly efected by this would of been happy and the vast majority that are seriously effected by this could of had some hope of geting to the gear scores of the 2%
why we even bother making anything bar cw when even fully geared were still going to be useless to group escapes me but i guess im not only 1 that preferes some variety
I STRONGLY ENCOURAGE any gwf that dont have your VT or MC gear IF YOU WANT IT BEFORE MOD 4 get it before mod 3 launches cause there will nolonger be a space on teams for you unless its some extreemly epic mates that can already 4 man it
ive done quite a bit of testing over last day or so and i cant find any setup that remotely compares to what u have now even if its second best atm still
While the Deep Gash has not affected me much, the change to Student of the Sword has ripped away around 30% of my damage. It's hard to tell exactly how my 1v1 matchups without the healing depression are, but I found myself unable to kill an HR in 1v1, using BiS vs BiS. Unfortunately for the HR, he couldn't even bring me lower than 50% because there was no healing depression, but I lacked the means to actually proc his SF due to loss in damage. I tried to compensate by switching over to trample the fallen and taking the paragon feat which utilizes trample the fallen, as well as SoTS, and still found myself lacking the DPS necessary to burst down the 2nd squishiest class in the game. GFs that I used to consistently beat, were able to stall off completely at 50%.
Uhm. It's bad. Real bad. Even with the nerf to shocking execution for TR, I don't see why anyone should play any other class but TRs if this module comes out for pvp. TRs are mobile, high damaging, and tanky in that they're utilizing stealth in order to avoid getting hit.
HOWEVER I'M NOT SAYING NERF TR, I'm saying don't nerf everyone's ability to compete with TR. TR is at the place I'd like to see other classes because it makes domination more about forcing the bad 1v1 matchup, and rotating in when able. Please, rethink these nerfs.
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The devs must have in mind that it's not the our overall dmg that we gonna be reduced. If we have to change for Destroyer our survivability will be a lot reduced too. So the GWF will have less damage and less defense attributes....
... and the devs says its not a nerf its a "rework". I like my Sentinel and want to still with him but they are making no choice for every single GWF to be a Destroyer or reroll for a CW.
If you want a feedback, think about it. You can rework the destroyer but dont mess with the other specs.
I tested my GWF 15.5k 8k power, completly destroyed, he didnt do half of the damage he used to dealt. This nerf is just too much to handle for a DPS class because the GWF is a DPS class, not tank not controll just DPS. The team no more benefits of SotS so in an high dps party cw> GWF due the high control + debuff vizir + high dps. Almost impossible keep the 20 stacks of Destroyer' s Purpouse due the low time and even with it we cant reach the old damage. In my opinion you will see again 5 CW's run every dungeon
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inthefade462Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2014
Using full glass cannon SM Dest max dps build, i'm doing about 50% of my live damage (which is IV Sent hybrid build). I'm still being out dmg'd by 11k CWs.
Only 1 run, streakiness, margin of error, diff team mates diff group comp etc etc. I know all that. But I've run enough 15 min ToS to know what my average is.
DG is down from ~60% to 5% of total dmg. but using % is misleading. on Preview DG does 592k dmg in a 15min ToS run. it does 6mil on live.
IBS does about 25% more dmg now (2.5mil compared to 2mil)
At wills Wicked + WMS is about 1.5mil over Wicked+Surestrike (6mil vs 4.5mil)
However CAGI (600k) or really any other encounter from SM can't compare to FLS (2mil)
Lightfoot thief is now useless, since a lot of it's procs were based off of DG initial crits spreading the dot/aggro over to mobs i couldn't hit. it's doing 136k dmg vs 300-400k for the same ToS run.
Basically much, much more of our total dmg is now from At wills. And our encounters are now more bursty without the added killing power of DG behind them.
Please double our target caps on Wicked + WMS to 10 and delete the SOTS nerf. we'll still only be about 60-65% of the dmg of a equivalent CW but atleast we bring something to the group (SOTS) that arguably justifies giving us 1 spot.
The issue is that on LIVE Deep Gash was doing WAY more damage than it was supposed to. Honestly I think they should just move Deep Gash further in the Dest Tree and put it back to what it was at, procs off power+the damage of the attack to put Dest Sents back for PVE damage. They are not as Tanky at all as Sents so they should be able to do alot more dmg...
The fact is that as a DPS class, a GWF should have at least the same (if not more) damage potential as the CW, which it will not with the ~40% damage reduction i saw on the test shard.
Now, if returning to the old deep gash and changing it's description is not an option, then how about making the destroyer class feature give something like 20% damage per stack. This would also fit the intention of "moving damage deeper into the destroyer tree" since it houses the 25% proc feat, while still giving SOME of the damage back to other specs. It would also focus on PvE damage while keeping PvP damage low, since the destroyer stacks are just not that easy to build or maintain in PvP.
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bajornorbertMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 272Arc User
About effective Destroyer dps on the preview shard right now:
I just did an actual CN test run with the new gwf changes on preview with 2x support cw + 2x high dps cw and am sad to report a destroyer GWF is completely unable to compete with high dps CW after the rework. The deep gash pretty much doubled our dps before, and the slight buffs (such as the new destroyer capstone and class feature) just don't make up for that. As it stands, if the changes go live as they are the only real high end DPS class will be CW. The student of the sword party benefit will also be gone, so there will be little reason to replace a CW with a GWF.
My question would be: is the CW intended to be the only high end PvE DPS class which nobody should be able to compete against?
We just did a CN 2/4 on PTS and the GWF was still able to compete with the CWs. It wasn't top DPS anymore, he didn't have 2-3kk more dmg than the rest of us, but it wasn't very low either. You just need to use a diff build and rely less on Deep Gash and more on encounters and skills.
We'll do a CN 4/4 later, but will see what changes.
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lazaroth666Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,332Arc User
edited March 2014
I think it would be great to see the actual Deep Gash (high dmg, crit, etc) as capstone in the Destroyer tree and move the Destroyer's purpose to Instigator's Purpose being this one the capstone for that tree.
Unfortunately, I've been playing this game for months and I'm very sure of one single thing: Once they have taken a decision about anything, patched to the preview server for us then it means it is going be like that in the live server sooner or later, they will not make ANY change to what they have already posted in the notes except 1 or 2 minor tweaks. If they change a bit the "reworked" DG for better, I would be really surprised.
We just did a CN 2/4 on PTS and the GWF was still able to compete with the CWs. It wasn't top DPS anymore, he didn't have 2-3kk more dmg than the rest of us, but it wasn't very low either. You just need to use a diff build and rely less on Deep Gash and more on encounters and skills.
We'll do a CN 4/4 later, but will see what changes.
Could you please post the build and a video so we can test the build?
I think it would be great to see the actual Deep Gash (high dmg, crit, etc) as capstone in the Destroyer tree and move the Destroyer's purpose to Instigator's Purpose being this one the capstone for that tree.
These area actually EXCELLENT ideas, as the instigator gapstone also needs a buff. Here's a chance for dev's to show they actually consider some VERY good feedback ideas .
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inthefade462Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Could you please post the build and a video so we can test the build?
no point really, since the cw's he's running with aren't optimal dps builds. this is clear when he says that the GWF was outdamaging them and now he can "keep up" with them.
Question for Devs, is your intention that a GWF should do the same dps as CW, when the GWF has as much power (9.4k) as the CW has total GS?
If that is not your intention than these nerfs cannot go to live as is. Or, which is more appropriate, CWs need their DPS reduced to 35% of current on live, their AP gain returned to them and enhanced CC effects.
no point really, since the cw's he's running with aren't optimal dps builds. this is clear when he says that the GWF was outdamaging them and now he can "keep up" with them.
Well, we (and the Devs) won't be in any position to judge until the video and build are available.
These area actually EXCELLENT ideas, as the instigator gapstone also needs a buff. Here's a chance for dev's to show they actually consider some VERY good feedback ideas .
If changes are being made, then any improvement to the instigator would be welcome.
I have transferred over my 15.5K Swordmaster/Destroyer (8K+ Power and Perfect Vorpal) to preview and I am disappointed in the direction we're going. I tested for some hours in various areas, from outside content, to solo missions (Dread Ring), to Skirmishes with parties. My overall damage I typically bring to a party, as well as my other benefits I bring, have been significantly reduced.
The Destroyer tree is damage; that's it's primary purpose. It's not to tank, or provide control or buffs; it's to chop things up into little bitty pieces. These changes make us out to be nothing special.
Deep Gash
I agree with most that the Deep Gash feat needed to be reworked, as it added too much damage from one feat. As others have already said, you are doing too much to this one feat at one time. You even said it yourself (in referencing the CW), it's a delicate process to tweak these things, yet fail to follow your own advice with Deep Gash. You make numerous changes to it (again, it's needed), but don't compensate the overall play-ability of the GWF. You tried, but it has failed. My suggestions:
-- Increase at-will damage
-- Increase the target cap of at-will/encounter powers (Make it a feat even, where you have +1/+2/+3/+4/+5 target cap for at-will and encounter powers)
-- Change Deep Gash to still use Power behind it, or, if that's too much, make it do 5%/10%/15%/20%/25% instead of the up to 15%.
Student of the Sword
Again, you tweaked this TOO much (failed to follow your own advice again). Once again this was a feat that is easy to get, but provides too much overall benefit. This is a team game, and one of the few feats we have as a GWF to provided party-wide benefit. Regardless of what percentage you decide on this, yoiu need to keep this as a team-benefit feat.
When I play a game and reach a high level and gear, I want to feel EPIC. I think most would agree that is something they desire as well. Making these changes brings us all down to feel non-epic, and when you feel this way, you lose your desire to play. Ultimately, of course, we all feel non-epic next to CW's. Making these changes will result in months of everyone playing CWs solely.
ibs+destroyer porpose (20% bonus... I do not know if the variation is real, or was the product of madness boon. someone could test.)
ibs+focused destroyer (20% bonus... this is not a "new bug". The bonus has always been "inflated", and yet the class was weak.)
complete combo (3 buffs)
so:
bring the other buffs to the same level of focused destroyer only create a pool damage which will be mitigated during the aoe. Use of this potential of "focused destroyer" to create aoe damage bonus.
ps: I do not use avatar of war, and not let the fire bonus down, so I do not understand this variation of 0.1 in countdowns.
ps2:Unless you want to take a10k non critical takedown in pvp , I suggest players from other classes stop the misinformation.
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bajornorbertMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 272Arc User
no point really, since the cw's he's running with aren't optimal dps builds. this is clear when he says that the GWF was outdamaging them and now he can "keep up" with them.
Question for Devs, is your intention that a GWF should do the same dps as CW, when the GWF has as much power (9.4k) as the CW has total GS?
If that is not your intention than these nerfs cannot go to live as is. Or, which is more appropriate, CWs need their DPS reduced to 35% of current on live, their AP gain returned to them and enhanced CC effects.
GWF was not mine, one of the CWs was mine. How can you tell it's not optimal, it's more likely that you haven't seen a good GWF.
Also if by optimal build you meant rank 10s, perfects, 3 orange artifacts, then you're right neither of us is using optimal builds.
GWF was a 17k IV Destroyer with perfect vorpal, the CWs were around ~15k including myself, 2 Thaum CWs, 1 Renegade CWs, everyone except me with perfect vorpals, i'm Thaum with G.Lightning.
Let's be honest something needed to be done, it's not normal for a T1 feat to be responsible for 40%+ of a GWF's dmg, and i'm not against a CW nerf either, if we get our AP gain and CC back, but that won't happen since the PvP crowd won't allow it, that's the reason why it was nerfed in the first place, but i'm going off-topic here.
Why you just not making guardian fighter to have unbreakable shield..and while he using it he cant hit..if he using it for too long he will loose threat..this will enstable the characters and will make GF very useful everywhere!Plus after dont need to nerf all classes..just make the dungeon mobs lvl 68-70!
hmmm ... maybe the concept of increasing damage could be applied to this encounter. the gf encounter increases damage single, the gwf creates a pool of damage can be used in aoe.
recalculate the damage of battle fury to be proportional to the amount of enemies hit (10/15% target) is a more appropriate way to escape this mitigation.
done this, there would be reason to buy this encounter Reduction and executioner style would be used for a more interesting environment.
GWF was not mine, one of the CWs was mine. How can you tell it's not optimal, it's more likely that you haven't seen a good GWF.
Also if by optimal build you meant rank 10s, perfects, 3 orange artifacts, then you're right neither of us is using optimal builds.
GWF was a 17k IV Destroyer with perfect vorpal, the CWs were around ~15k including myself, 2 Thaum CWs, 1 Renegade CWs, everyone except me with perfect vorpals, i'm Thaum with G.Lightning.
Let's be honest something needed to be done, it's not normal for a T1 feat to be responsible for 40%+ of a GWF's dmg, and i'm not against a CW nerf either, if we get our AP gain and CC back, but that won't happen since the PvP crowd won't allow it, that's the reason why it was nerfed in the first place, but i'm going off-topic here.
Thanks for the reply, but would you mind recording the 4/4 run and having parses as this would be really useful.
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bajornorbertMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 272Arc User
GWF was not mine, one of the CWs was mine. How can you tell it's not optimal, it's more likely that you haven't seen a good GWF.
Also if by optimal build you meant rank 10s, perfects, 3 orange artifacts, then you're right neither of us is using optimal builds.
GWF was a 17k IV Destroyer with perfect vorpal, the CWs were around ~15k including myself, 2 Thaum CWs, 1 Renegade CWs, everyone except me with perfect vorpals, i'm Thaum with G.Lightning.
Let's be honest something needed to be done, it's not normal for a T1 feat to be responsible for 40%+ of a GWF's dmg, and i'm not against a CW nerf either, if we get our AP gain and CC back, but that won't happen since the PvP crowd won't allow it, that's the reason why it was nerfed in the first place, but i'm going off-topic here.
first with rank 9s perfects so on epic pets so on pretty optimal build mines like below 17k gs so my guss is gwf was full end game.
2nd thing is for cw to do less dps in ptr than gwf they most afk for half dungeon 3rd welcome back trolling cw who think pve nerf will help them when it comes to pvp
as is end game well played cw dose more dps than end game well played gwf so for u to be out dps by gwf doing like 40% less dps dose not seem right and most in here know its not right name the gwf please not that its probly even his fault if cw where afking
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bajornorbertMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 272Arc User
first with rank 9s perfects so on epic pets so on pretty optimal build mines like below 17k gs so my guss is gwf was full end game.
2nd thing is for cw to do less dps in ptr than gwf they most afk for half dungeon 3rd welcome back trolling cw who think pve nerf will help them when it comes to pvp
as is end game well played cw dose more dps than end game well played gwf so for u to be out dps by gwf doing like 40% less dps dose not seem right and most in here know its not right name the gwf please not that its probly even his fault if cw where afking
I haven't said that a CW pve nerf will help them in pvp, i've said i'm okay with the inevitable incoming CW nerf as long as we get at least an AP gain and CC boost. Read: i won't come crying on the forums like 90% of GWFs do.
Also, have you played on the PTS or you just read the patch notes and you're already crying? If you've played on the PTS, have you been in any dungeons or you've tested your damage on dummies, cause it's not the same?
And a well played IV Destroyer can outdamage a CW or at least keep up with them on Live, if not it's the GWFs fault. You know your statement is true both ways. A GWF shouldn't be last in line, if you're running ahead, pulling everything, applying bleed to everyone you can, using your encounters wisely, not on 1 mob, you'll have much higher DPS then arriving at the battle after the CWs cleared half the dungeon
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inthefade462Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2014
the back and forth comments to other posters will be edited out so no point in responding to bajorn, trolls going to troll.
here is another ToS run with very similar group (same 11k cw), except a TR replaced the sent GWF. this time I chose IV Dest build:
If you compare this to my previous run as SM Dest you'll notice that certain things like elvish fury, Shadowtouched, and deep gash had very close to the same # of hits and dmg dealt, as all of these are now basically constants for dmg and a good source to compare when trying to tweak builds.
The major differences between the two builds now are IV has FLS/Trample, and SM has 10% mitigation from WMS and Weapon Master. Both builds use Destroyer as the 2nd passive as a given.
again because most of our dmg is now balanced amonst At Wills and encounters a high dmg 2nd encounter like FLS seems to be superior to better avg dmg with WMS+Wicked combo of SM Dest
Anyone else finding similar results on PTR?
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bajornorbertMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 272Arc User
edited March 2014
Let me start this post by apologizing to anyone whom i offended. Sorry, i'm tired.
Second, this is mainly for inthefade. You're right, i don't play a pure DPS build, i use a support/DPS build (10k+ DPS during a standard CN 4/4 run), and neither do the other CWs i usually run with.
Now let me try to rephrase my opinion about the GWF nerf, without hopefully getting sidetracked and talking nonsense again. GWFs got nerfed, nobody denies it, but i don't think they got as bad as they were before mod 2. I don't have a GWF, so everything i'm saying comes from analyzing ACT logs of GWFs i'm usually running with and comparing their mod 2 (Live) performance with their mod 3 (PTS) performance, and from what i hear they are saying. Also the only dungeon i'm doing on a daily basis is CN, so i can't talk about their performance in other dungeons.
Deep Gash: It's got nerfed way more than it should've been. The 10k+ ticks were thanks to a bug and GWFs taking advantage of it, using builds/rotations that allowed those huge numbers to be possible. That's not normal, no feat should be responsible for 40%+ of someone's damage, and we all knew that's going to be fixed sooner or later. But as things stand right now on PTS it's actually doing less damage then it supposed to do, if i understood the description of the feat correctly. Now it is doing at most 20% of your power during it's entire duration, and not per-tick as i understood and believe it should do. If they would modify it to do 20% of your power / tick it would be much better, would do decent damage, without being too overpowered.
SotS: Changing this from team-buff to self-buff made this almost useless.
Destroyer's Purpose: This needs some work too. Increasing the damage / stack and lowering the number of maximum stacks will probably make it more useful, in situations when you don't have 20+ mobs to hit. As of now, in some cases it can stack up really fast, like in a few secs, while in other cases it takes a very long time and by the time you have 20 stacks everything is dead.
So yeah, GWFs will need to find new builds to use, they'll have lower DPS, lower survivability (lower life steal ticks), but won't be useless, they won't be nearly as bad as pre-mod 2. From our brief testing on the PTS, with far from an optimal GWF build (basically just a quick respec), it's quite playable, it doesn't made the CN 2/4 run we did any slower, even though it had lower DPS, it even seemed to be much smoother than on Live.
There's a lot more testing and theorycrafting to be done before saying that the GWF is the new worst class. The only paragon path that was nerfed to uselessness with this patch is the Instigator, Destroyers could still do quite well once someone finds a good build.
And let's not forget that the devs confirmed that a CW nerf is coming, so while CWs might be the FOTM once again, that won't stay that way for long.
However, I wished the critical aspect to Deep Gash remained, even though DoT cannot seem to have independent critical chances on each tick, it might provide reasonable overall damage.
Feedback: Executioner's Strike
Amazing buff on the Indomitable Battle Strike aspect, though I think that the Reaping Strike aspect can be either removed or reworked to something that involves Indomitable Battle Strike as well, such as:
1. Reduces the cooldown of Indomitable Battle Strike by .2/.4/.6/.8/1 seconds
OR
2. At maximum rank, Indomitable Battle Strike has a slightly faster casting animation
Feedback: Focused Destroyer
Loving the additional feature to it, maybe the values could be doubled to 1/2/3/4/5% bonus damage per Destroyer stack up from .5/1/1.5/2/2.5%, but it's already good as it is in my opinion.
Feedback: Destroyer's Purpose
Awesome addition as well, maybe the stacks of Destroyer's Purpose could increase to 30 up from 20.
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effindozaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 6Arc User
edited March 2014
I've read this entire thread twice and cannot find a single thing that bajorn said that was, even in the slightest, untoward. Lay off him; he's providing better feedback than half of the GWFs in this thread.
Feedback: Overall While I've yet to crunch any numbers in particular (note that I will be coming back to edit this post shortly; about to go do some more specific tests), I have yet to notice any particularly large drop in my own damage. As I've only compared notes over two dungeons w/o parse, this may not hold true in the future. But, with minimal testing done I seem to be sitting at a point that I am okay with.
Feedback: Executioner's Style While I don't now, and never have, use this feat I'd agree with howdy's statement above. It needs either something better, to give us a reason to use reaping strike or to give up on the at-will entirely, and modify IBS further, or give a modifier to Wicked or Sure Strikes.
Further feedback coming shortly, pending more in-depth self-analysis. Anyone heard from Kolat or shadow, recently? Where are our pioneers?
I return; unfortunately able to get any concrete numbers for myself tonight. Being part of a small guild means that I have constraints; oh well. Will get on it the rest of the week. I intend to be useful! I do, however, have a few things to say.
Feedback: Deep gashes Holy! I didn't quite realize those numbers would be so small! No idea how I did comparable damage in those dungeon runs last night. The rest of my team must have been off their game...
I'd like to go ahead and suggest that you make each tick worth about 10% of a GWF's total power (at max rank, rather than the whole DoT being only 20%; trying to meet in a median, here, as I doubt we'd get 20% per tick, though that would be great for us in the face of the massive hit we're taking)
Additional Feedback: I am of the opinion that a removal of the damage reduction per target attached to our at will, in addition to or separated from, an increase to the target cap of the same would make a good number of GWFs content, if not satisfied, with the present...changes we are receiving. It may also go a good distance to keeping us viable in the post-mod3 PvE environment. Please consider doing so. As a weapon-based class that is supposed to "excel at AoE damage," the reduction per target on my primary means of damage not only seems clunky but makes me feel like the weapon I swing blunts far too easily.
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exiledtyrantMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2014
Does relentless + student of the sword take mitigation into -10% if we are armor pen capped or are these feats just there to allow us to itemize armor pen even less?
What's going to be done about instigator by the way? I remember on release I thought that it was going to be the premier pvp tree, vs destroyer dps and sentinel for off tanking. The design for that tree seems so mired now, Absolutely nothing about it helps you excel in a GWF role to me. The spinning strike/avalanche of steel feat, the move speed while controlling,the deflection while charging and sprinting, and capstone all need to go. The instigator capstone should be something like 10% flat damage bonus and the ability to move at full speed while doing at-wills. Something really distinct that gives new game play and tactical edge.
Why is destroyer getting the best of the damage feats and the best of utility/recovery feats? Recovery and utility should be in instigator.
After these recent changes GWF are now more than ever only given 2 functional trees instead of 3. Reaping strike also suffers now with the 5 second time window buffs and the unstoppable buffs making multi-hit moves more favored than ever. We've officially lost a tree and a power as this patch stands right now.
Comments
as for wepon enchants a destroyer and theres only goign to be destroyers even moderatly viable as "tank" specs due to needs a certain amount of damage to be top of agro list there not going to be able to stack crit past about 36% i have a full dex elf with 3000+ crit and its 36% so u devide vorperals damage by about 3 and u find its less consistant damage then say lightning, whats its necisery for is geting those spikes to put yourself at the top of the agro list, which is steadly becoming harder and harder for any "tank" to do
so it may not make endbosses quite as hard as id feared althow lacking student of sword and remebering i was geting out dps'ed 3-4 fold but fully setup CW or destroyer gwf before nurf and 2 fold by lower geared destroyers its going to make it very hard to get a group except amoungst friends and with no team utility atall very little ability to hold agro via threat being based solely on dps+threat modifyers ill be able to tank maybe 1 enemy out of a group.
CW will be tanking the rest(and lets face it someone has to or u wipe), on + side i lost like 7% mitigation 10% deflect 7.5% crit and almost doubled my base damage so i should hit quite a bit beter in pvp and with unstopable coming from damage control and damage received now i should be cc immune quite a bit more, but full sentinel is now totaly unviable for pve,
even my 12k cw's smoulder crit hits for 900+ damage so deep gash is never going to hold agro and with my target caps im never going to hit enuff targets often enuff to not have most of room chasing dps, i may be able to tank 1 or 2 enemys from a group the rest will be being dealt with by cw, im not callign for a nurf on CW though id like to see classes buffed so ppl arnt forced to take 3 or 4 cw and then 1 tag along , yes some ppl that already have all there gear find content to easy, but the 98% that dont often strugle still your time "balancing" would have been beter spent making a 18Kgs+ epic dungeon then the ppl that wont be to badly efected by this would of been happy and the vast majority that are seriously effected by this could of had some hope of geting to the gear scores of the 2%
why we even bother making anything bar cw when even fully geared were still going to be useless to group escapes me but i guess im not only 1 that preferes some variety
ive done quite a bit of testing over last day or so and i cant find any setup that remotely compares to what u have now even if its second best atm still
While the Deep Gash has not affected me much, the change to Student of the Sword has ripped away around 30% of my damage. It's hard to tell exactly how my 1v1 matchups without the healing depression are, but I found myself unable to kill an HR in 1v1, using BiS vs BiS. Unfortunately for the HR, he couldn't even bring me lower than 50% because there was no healing depression, but I lacked the means to actually proc his SF due to loss in damage. I tried to compensate by switching over to trample the fallen and taking the paragon feat which utilizes trample the fallen, as well as SoTS, and still found myself lacking the DPS necessary to burst down the 2nd squishiest class in the game. GFs that I used to consistently beat, were able to stall off completely at 50%.
Uhm. It's bad. Real bad. Even with the nerf to shocking execution for TR, I don't see why anyone should play any other class but TRs if this module comes out for pvp. TRs are mobile, high damaging, and tanky in that they're utilizing stealth in order to avoid getting hit.
HOWEVER I'M NOT SAYING NERF TR, I'm saying don't nerf everyone's ability to compete with TR. TR is at the place I'd like to see other classes because it makes domination more about forcing the bad 1v1 matchup, and rotating in when able. Please, rethink these nerfs.
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... and the devs says its not a nerf its a "rework". I like my Sentinel and want to still with him but they are making no choice for every single GWF to be a Destroyer or reroll for a CW.
If you want a feedback, think about it. You can rework the destroyer but dont mess with the other specs.
Only 1 run, streakiness, margin of error, diff team mates diff group comp etc etc. I know all that. But I've run enough 15 min ToS to know what my average is.
DG is down from ~60% to 5% of total dmg. but using % is misleading. on Preview DG does 592k dmg in a 15min ToS run. it does 6mil on live.
IBS does about 25% more dmg now (2.5mil compared to 2mil)
At wills Wicked + WMS is about 1.5mil over Wicked+Surestrike (6mil vs 4.5mil)
However CAGI (600k) or really any other encounter from SM can't compare to FLS (2mil)
Lightfoot thief is now useless, since a lot of it's procs were based off of DG initial crits spreading the dot/aggro over to mobs i couldn't hit. it's doing 136k dmg vs 300-400k for the same ToS run.
Basically much, much more of our total dmg is now from At wills. And our encounters are now more bursty without the added killing power of DG behind them.
Please double our target caps on Wicked + WMS to 10 and delete the SOTS nerf. we'll still only be about 60-65% of the dmg of a equivalent CW but atleast we bring something to the group (SOTS) that arguably justifies giving us 1 spot.
my bf+savage advanced (no renlentless). relentless alone give the same bonus.
"combo":
ps:the "savage advanced" reduces the countdown of "punishing charge" in maximum one second
no chance of sustaining bf bonus otherwise attempt to think "outside the box".
Now, if returning to the old deep gash and changing it's description is not an option, then how about making the destroyer class feature give something like 20% damage per stack. This would also fit the intention of "moving damage deeper into the destroyer tree" since it houses the 25% proc feat, while still giving SOME of the damage back to other specs. It would also focus on PvE damage while keeping PvP damage low, since the destroyer stacks are just not that easy to build or maintain in PvP.
We just did a CN 2/4 on PTS and the GWF was still able to compete with the CWs. It wasn't top DPS anymore, he didn't have 2-3kk more dmg than the rest of us, but it wasn't very low either. You just need to use a diff build and rely less on Deep Gash and more on encounters and skills.
We'll do a CN 4/4 later, but will see what changes.
Unfortunately, I've been playing this game for months and I'm very sure of one single thing: Once they have taken a decision about anything, patched to the preview server for us then it means it is going be like that in the live server sooner or later, they will not make ANY change to what they have already posted in the notes except 1 or 2 minor tweaks. If they change a bit the "reworked" DG for better, I would be really surprised.
Could you please post the build and a video so we can test the build?
These area actually EXCELLENT ideas, as the instigator gapstone also needs a buff. Here's a chance for dev's to show they actually consider some VERY good feedback ideas
no point really, since the cw's he's running with aren't optimal dps builds. this is clear when he says that the GWF was outdamaging them and now he can "keep up" with them.
Question for Devs, is your intention that a GWF should do the same dps as CW, when the GWF has as much power (9.4k) as the CW has total GS?
If that is not your intention than these nerfs cannot go to live as is. Or, which is more appropriate, CWs need their DPS reduced to 35% of current on live, their AP gain returned to them and enhanced CC effects.
Well, we (and the Devs) won't be in any position to judge until the video and build are available.
If changes are being made, then any improvement to the instigator would be welcome.
Spec: Swordmaster / Destroyer
I have transferred over my 15.5K Swordmaster/Destroyer (8K+ Power and Perfect Vorpal) to preview and I am disappointed in the direction we're going. I tested for some hours in various areas, from outside content, to solo missions (Dread Ring), to Skirmishes with parties. My overall damage I typically bring to a party, as well as my other benefits I bring, have been significantly reduced.
The Destroyer tree is damage; that's it's primary purpose. It's not to tank, or provide control or buffs; it's to chop things up into little bitty pieces. These changes make us out to be nothing special.
Deep Gash
I agree with most that the Deep Gash feat needed to be reworked, as it added too much damage from one feat. As others have already said, you are doing too much to this one feat at one time. You even said it yourself (in referencing the CW), it's a delicate process to tweak these things, yet fail to follow your own advice with Deep Gash. You make numerous changes to it (again, it's needed), but don't compensate the overall play-ability of the GWF. You tried, but it has failed. My suggestions:
-- Increase at-will damage
-- Increase the target cap of at-will/encounter powers (Make it a feat even, where you have +1/+2/+3/+4/+5 target cap for at-will and encounter powers)
-- Change Deep Gash to still use Power behind it, or, if that's too much, make it do 5%/10%/15%/20%/25% instead of the up to 15%.
Student of the Sword
Again, you tweaked this TOO much (failed to follow your own advice again). Once again this was a feat that is easy to get, but provides too much overall benefit. This is a team game, and one of the few feats we have as a GWF to provided party-wide benefit. Regardless of what percentage you decide on this, yoiu need to keep this as a team-benefit feat.
When I play a game and reach a high level and gear, I want to feel EPIC. I think most would agree that is something they desire as well. Making these changes brings us all down to feel non-epic, and when you feel this way, you lose your desire to play. Ultimately, of course, we all feel non-epic next to CW's. Making these changes will result in months of everyone playing CWs solely.
ibs+battle fury bonus (20%)
ibs+destroyer porpose (20% bonus... I do not know if the variation is real, or was the product of madness boon. someone could test.)
ibs+focused destroyer (20% bonus... this is not a "new bug". The bonus has always been "inflated", and yet the class was weak.)
complete combo (3 buffs)
so:
bring the other buffs to the same level of focused destroyer only create a pool damage which will be mitigated during the aoe. Use of this potential of "focused destroyer" to create aoe damage bonus.
ps: I do not use avatar of war, and not let the fire bonus down, so I do not understand this variation of 0.1 in countdowns.
ps2:Unless you want to take a10k non critical takedown in pvp , I suggest players from other classes stop the misinformation.
GWF was not mine, one of the CWs was mine. How can you tell it's not optimal, it's more likely that you haven't seen a good GWF.
Also if by optimal build you meant rank 10s, perfects, 3 orange artifacts, then you're right neither of us is using optimal builds.
GWF was a 17k IV Destroyer with perfect vorpal, the CWs were around ~15k including myself, 2 Thaum CWs, 1 Renegade CWs, everyone except me with perfect vorpals, i'm Thaum with G.Lightning.
Let's be honest something needed to be done, it's not normal for a T1 feat to be responsible for 40%+ of a GWF's dmg, and i'm not against a CW nerf either, if we get our AP gain and CC back, but that won't happen since the PvP crowd won't allow it, that's the reason why it was nerfed in the first place, but i'm going off-topic here.
hmmm ... maybe the concept of increasing damage could be applied to this encounter. the gf encounter increases damage single, the gwf creates a pool of damage can be used in aoe.
recalculate the damage of battle fury to be proportional to the amount of enemies hit (10/15% target) is a more appropriate way to escape this mitigation.
done this, there would be reason to buy this encounter Reduction and executioner style would be used for a more interesting environment.
Thanks for the reply, but would you mind recording the 4/4 run and having parses as this would be really useful.
I have the act export from the 2/4 run, but we haven't done a 4/4 on the PTS yet.
first with rank 9s perfects so on epic pets so on pretty optimal build mines like below 17k gs so my guss is gwf was full end game.
2nd thing is for cw to do less dps in ptr than gwf they most afk for half dungeon 3rd welcome back trolling cw who think pve nerf will help them when it comes to pvp
as is end game well played cw dose more dps than end game well played gwf so for u to be out dps by gwf doing like 40% less dps dose not seem right and most in here know its not right name the gwf please not that its probly even his fault if cw where afking
I haven't said that a CW pve nerf will help them in pvp, i've said i'm okay with the inevitable incoming CW nerf as long as we get at least an AP gain and CC boost. Read: i won't come crying on the forums like 90% of GWFs do.
Also, have you played on the PTS or you just read the patch notes and you're already crying? If you've played on the PTS, have you been in any dungeons or you've tested your damage on dummies, cause it's not the same?
And a well played IV Destroyer can outdamage a CW or at least keep up with them on Live, if not it's the GWFs fault. You know your statement is true both ways. A GWF shouldn't be last in line, if you're running ahead, pulling everything, applying bleed to everyone you can, using your encounters wisely, not on 1 mob, you'll have much higher DPS then arriving at the battle after the CWs cleared half the dungeon
here is another ToS run with very similar group (same 11k cw), except a TR replaced the sent GWF. this time I chose IV Dest build:
If you compare this to my previous run as SM Dest you'll notice that certain things like elvish fury, Shadowtouched, and deep gash had very close to the same # of hits and dmg dealt, as all of these are now basically constants for dmg and a good source to compare when trying to tweak builds.
The major differences between the two builds now are IV has FLS/Trample, and SM has 10% mitigation from WMS and Weapon Master. Both builds use Destroyer as the 2nd passive as a given.
again because most of our dmg is now balanced amonst At Wills and encounters a high dmg 2nd encounter like FLS seems to be superior to better avg dmg with WMS+Wicked combo of SM Dest
Anyone else finding similar results on PTR?
Second, this is mainly for inthefade. You're right, i don't play a pure DPS build, i use a support/DPS build (10k+ DPS during a standard CN 4/4 run), and neither do the other CWs i usually run with.
Now let me try to rephrase my opinion about the GWF nerf, without hopefully getting sidetracked and talking nonsense again. GWFs got nerfed, nobody denies it, but i don't think they got as bad as they were before mod 2. I don't have a GWF, so everything i'm saying comes from analyzing ACT logs of GWFs i'm usually running with and comparing their mod 2 (Live) performance with their mod 3 (PTS) performance, and from what i hear they are saying. Also the only dungeon i'm doing on a daily basis is CN, so i can't talk about their performance in other dungeons.
Deep Gash: It's got nerfed way more than it should've been. The 10k+ ticks were thanks to a bug and GWFs taking advantage of it, using builds/rotations that allowed those huge numbers to be possible. That's not normal, no feat should be responsible for 40%+ of someone's damage, and we all knew that's going to be fixed sooner or later. But as things stand right now on PTS it's actually doing less damage then it supposed to do, if i understood the description of the feat correctly. Now it is doing at most 20% of your power during it's entire duration, and not per-tick as i understood and believe it should do. If they would modify it to do 20% of your power / tick it would be much better, would do decent damage, without being too overpowered.
SotS: Changing this from team-buff to self-buff made this almost useless.
Destroyer's Purpose: This needs some work too. Increasing the damage / stack and lowering the number of maximum stacks will probably make it more useful, in situations when you don't have 20+ mobs to hit. As of now, in some cases it can stack up really fast, like in a few secs, while in other cases it takes a very long time and by the time you have 20 stacks everything is dead.
So yeah, GWFs will need to find new builds to use, they'll have lower DPS, lower survivability (lower life steal ticks), but won't be useless, they won't be nearly as bad as pre-mod 2. From our brief testing on the PTS, with far from an optimal GWF build (basically just a quick respec), it's quite playable, it doesn't made the CN 2/4 run we did any slower, even though it had lower DPS, it even seemed to be much smoother than on Live.
There's a lot more testing and theorycrafting to be done before saying that the GWF is the new worst class. The only paragon path that was nerfed to uselessness with this patch is the Instigator, Destroyers could still do quite well once someone finds a good build.
And let's not forget that the devs confirmed that a CW nerf is coming, so while CWs might be the FOTM once again, that won't stay that way for long.
Spec: Swordmaster / Destroyer
Feedback: Deep Gash Changes
Great fixes on Deep Gash!
However, I wished the critical aspect to Deep Gash remained, even though DoT cannot seem to have independent critical chances on each tick, it might provide reasonable overall damage.
Feedback: Executioner's Strike
Amazing buff on the Indomitable Battle Strike aspect, though I think that the Reaping Strike aspect can be either removed or reworked to something that involves Indomitable Battle Strike as well, such as:
1. Reduces the cooldown of Indomitable Battle Strike by .2/.4/.6/.8/1 seconds
OR
2. At maximum rank, Indomitable Battle Strike has a slightly faster casting animation
Feedback: Focused Destroyer
Loving the additional feature to it, maybe the values could be doubled to 1/2/3/4/5% bonus damage per Destroyer stack up from .5/1/1.5/2/2.5%, but it's already good as it is in my opinion.
Feedback: Destroyer's Purpose
Awesome addition as well, maybe the stacks of Destroyer's Purpose could increase to 30 up from 20.
Feedback: Overall
While I've yet to crunch any numbers in particular (note that I will be coming back to edit this post shortly; about to go do some more specific tests), I have yet to notice any particularly large drop in my own damage. As I've only compared notes over two dungeons w/o parse, this may not hold true in the future. But, with minimal testing done I seem to be sitting at a point that I am okay with.
Feedback: Executioner's Style
While I don't now, and never have, use this feat I'd agree with howdy's statement above. It needs either something better, to give us a reason to use reaping strike or to give up on the at-will entirely, and modify IBS further, or give a modifier to Wicked or Sure Strikes.
Further feedback coming shortly, pending more in-depth self-analysis. Anyone heard from Kolat or shadow, recently? Where are our pioneers?
I return; unfortunately able to get any concrete numbers for myself tonight. Being part of a small guild means that I have constraints; oh well. Will get on it the rest of the week. I intend to be useful! I do, however, have a few things to say.
Feedback: Deep gashes
Holy! I didn't quite realize those numbers would be so small! No idea how I did comparable damage in those dungeon runs last night. The rest of my team must have been off their game...
I'd like to go ahead and suggest that you make each tick worth about 10% of a GWF's total power (at max rank, rather than the whole DoT being only 20%; trying to meet in a median, here, as I doubt we'd get 20% per tick, though that would be great for us in the face of the massive hit we're taking)
Additional Feedback:
I am of the opinion that a removal of the damage reduction per target attached to our at will, in addition to or separated from, an increase to the target cap of the same would make a good number of GWFs content, if not satisfied, with the present...changes we are receiving. It may also go a good distance to keeping us viable in the post-mod3 PvE environment. Please consider doing so. As a weapon-based class that is supposed to "excel at AoE damage," the reduction per target on my primary means of damage not only seems clunky but makes me feel like the weapon I swing blunts far too easily.
What's going to be done about instigator by the way? I remember on release I thought that it was going to be the premier pvp tree, vs destroyer dps and sentinel for off tanking. The design for that tree seems so mired now, Absolutely nothing about it helps you excel in a GWF role to me. The spinning strike/avalanche of steel feat, the move speed while controlling,the deflection while charging and sprinting, and capstone all need to go. The instigator capstone should be something like 10% flat damage bonus and the ability to move at full speed while doing at-wills. Something really distinct that gives new game play and tactical edge.
Why is destroyer getting the best of the damage feats and the best of utility/recovery feats? Recovery and utility should be in instigator.
After these recent changes GWF are now more than ever only given 2 functional trees instead of 3. Reaping strike also suffers now with the 5 second time window buffs and the unstoppable buffs making multi-hit moves more favored than ever. We've officially lost a tree and a power as this patch stands right now.