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Perma Stealth Feedback Discussion
errantvolley
Member Posts: 46 Arc User
With tenacity they take less damage. With healing depression their foes heal slowly but they can get out of combat and get full regen ticks. The small window between ITC and stealth is easily healed for them.
Being on point should drain stealth quickly. Let them roam between points immune I guess if you want perma to be a thing. On point, though, its not a reasonable match-up.
I say this as someone who has one of every class at L60 with 14k+ gearscore on all of them. And yes I have a perma stealth perfect bile TR.
Other quick thoughts:
Premades of any size (even 2) should not be mixed with pugs. Its not fun and games should be about fun foremost.
Threatening Rush is still quite spammable.
Healing depression makes pug pvp more fun. Tenacity makes it less fun.
You can add the phrase "to me" to each of these thoughts, of course. This is my opinion.
Being on point should drain stealth quickly. Let them roam between points immune I guess if you want perma to be a thing. On point, though, its not a reasonable match-up.
I say this as someone who has one of every class at L60 with 14k+ gearscore on all of them. And yes I have a perma stealth perfect bile TR.
Other quick thoughts:
Premades of any size (even 2) should not be mixed with pugs. Its not fun and games should be about fun foremost.
Threatening Rush is still quite spammable.
Healing depression makes pug pvp more fun. Tenacity makes it less fun.
You can add the phrase "to me" to each of these thoughts, of course. This is my opinion.
Post edited by errantvolley on
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Going to stop you right there friend, healing depression is unavoidable even for a perm tr, any damage, whether in itc or otherwise, or a lingering dot upon restealthing will keep healing depression active
Impact nerf weakens dps but I can compensate. Path of Blade has been most of my dps in the few matches I ran followed by Cloud and then Bilethorn. With duelist immunity gone I have been more reluctant to rely on it so it dropped to only 10% dps across the matches.
Point for the thread, though, is (nearly) perma TR is even stronger. It is never any one change. I still feel that is true. This is unfortunate because I feel this build is unfun and ruins many people's enjoyment of pug pvp. In premade anything goes because we control party composition. Not sure how we will do premade matches with leaver penalty though. That is another topic.
Errr... That was the very point of the patch, wasn't it?
It sounds like your tr is pretty well made? Can you please go into a match where everyone has the best end game builds for comparison? I hate statistics and numbers based on pug matches
Although I'll still play the rogue no matter how much we get nerfed, I personally would like to take this as a challenge and uphold how you guys see TR's, as an overpowered class. There are more stuff to complain about. We can build our TR's to give ITC an effective CD of 5 seconds, and when it's on CD, you guys are Dazed. When you can't be Dazed, you won't see the TR. This is a tested build although it hasn't been released yet. And now that Impact Shot has been nerfed, I'm pretty sure you guys will be seeing a massive resurgence of TR's slotting Lashing Blade and aiming for one-hit kills (LB/ITC/SS Builds). This'll be another good source of Q.Q.
People will always find something to complain about until Stealth effectively gets removed, or significantly gimped just like our list of Powers.
Nerfing our encounters and skills will not solve this or make it easier to fight rouges as someone, somewhere will rearrange their build to compensate. Stealth still remains and is the reason threads like this will continue.
Of course, it would appear now, that Stealth is next on the chopping block.
And actually I remember people complaining a lot about SE before they nerfed it, and that was not about stealth.
some still complain about us using execution from stealth xD
I can't wait for a stealth revamp. Hopefully it will be implemented into PvE aswell as PvP, since TR should not be able to solo epic bosses, at all. It lets them effectively earn more AD than the other classes.
Not sure if you or any other rogue has ever played a rogue in different games, one thing i can guarantee you though is, that stealth in Neverwinter grants too many advantages at once (and has no disadvantages, such as slowed down movement). For example: if a rogue in Aion uses stealth, the rogue becomes slower since they're sneaking and don't want to make much noise while doing so. Why do the TR's in Neverwinter become faster in stealth? The norm in other games is also, the Rogue gets a penalty for not being stealthed, usually minus 50-XX% of their damage, when they go into stealth it let's them hit for 100%. Why can Rogues in Neverwinter run around without fearing consequences of not being stealthed (with constant 100% damage, regardless of stealth)?
The list goes on and on. I am glad that the devs are already planning a revamp. Hopefully towards that the TR's stealth-meter depletes on damage dealt (not attacks) and high spike damage should break stealth immediatly, while smaller hits would not deplete an entire bar at once.
Peace.
However, with everyone becoming even more resistant to damage, tanky characters take so long for a true perma TR to kill alone that it's often not feasible to try. The aforementioned top stealth TR couldn't budge my DC off of a node for fear of dying first (the attrition works both ways, so DoTs are surprisingly effective now).
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
The entire class is built around stealth. It's the class mechanic and a large number of paragon feats actively encourage or require being in stealth as long as possible. In particular there are bonuses for attacking while stealthed, so stopping or discouraging this will break the class completely.
And in those other games where being stealthed makes you move slower the stealth last a lot longer by default. Slow down NW TRs while in stealth and, once again, the class as it exists is broken.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
A revamp is overdue, since last year already to be honest. The Fotm - players once stopped exactly this from happening. If they can do it twice... i don't know/ think so. In the end it will balance the classes out and that's what counts.
Sorry, but Neverwinter stealth depletes constantly once entered unless the TR is taking actions to refill it.
Games that force slower movement while sneaking allow stealth to be pretty much indefinite unless detected (due to actually having things like spot check mechanics which Neverwinter lacks) or exited voluntarily. They also do not require a meter to be refilled to allow re-entry of stealth, provided other conditions are met, such as being in a shadow or out of line-of-sight.
These aren't bad mechanics, and allow for really interesting tactical play in games that have them, but they are not supported in Neverwinter. To implement them would require an entire rework of the class.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Actually, rouge goes on the cheeks.
Post moving to "unproductive" in 3.. 2.. 1....
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
But I stand corrected, thanks for the clarify.
There has always been ways to break stealth though with area encounters with every class has there not? I don't see why being able to stealth regardless of the amount of time is an issue since there always has been a counter to it. It's not like people are completely helpless against it correct? If your standing there alone, or an easy mark at the back of a group and don't think to kick one of these encounters off just to check its my fault for putting a knife in your back?
I don't understand the logic. What am I missing here?
and i miss my HP and regen ,, but ,,, it seems more viable to go with tenacity right now. at least from what i can tell,, however Im thinking they nerfed it some cause CWs are stilll able to fling ya up allot ,,,, and hold you still if you let them see you. and Dammit they still didnt fix rooting why the hell not!? lol
Hi. Thank you for your contribution to the discussion. We can't have a proper discussion without feedback like yours. Allow me to respond to your post.
First and foremost, whenever I play a new MMO, I always go for the class with the Stealth mechanic. I'll play whatever it is that require intelligent and careful planning, the class that carries the most useful bag of utility tricks. I believe I've got a good grasp of what the rogue should be, how they should be played. One thing I can ask you back is have you ever played the Trickster Rogue class, or at least have gotten a good sense of the purpose, advantages and disadvantages of the Rogue Archetype for any MMO? Because if we base things from your comment just now, it doesn't seem like you are that informed about the archetype itself. Let me answer some of the questions and arguments in your post.
1. Rogues are able to solo bosses: Yes.
2. Rogues are able to earn AD more effectively than other classes: No. Let's be realistic, Colonelwing. CW's and GWF's have the best capabilities of earning AD's in the game. They can all group up together and it's easy to find a party for those 2 classes as they can steamroll through end-game PVE content and claim it is not challenging. Who exactly would be willing to party up with a TR for these sort of steamroll runs? It's because you people are destroying PVE that we are forced to earn AD by being "creative." And no, we are not exploiting. We are using our class mechanics to its fullest. We built our characters in such a way through legit means. Not our fault your class doesn't have Stealth.
3. Stealth has too many advantages: Rightfully so. It's a class mechanic, just like Unstoppable and Mastery.
4. Stealth in Neverwinter works different from other games: Yes. Because it's a different game, with very different combat mechanics.
5. Why do the TR's become faster in Stealth: Because we have the class feature Sneak Attack slotted, which increases our movement speed by 30% in Stealth. It eats up 1 Class Feature slot which we could have used for another offensive CF. Tell me, would you much rather have it in its previous un-nerfed version which was to deal 30% increased damage in Stealth? I don't think so, friend.
6. Why can Rogues in NW run around without fearing the consequences of not being Stealthed?: It seems you truly did not bother learning about any other class other than yours. First and foremost, Rogues are a low AC class, with very little defensive skills other than Stealth and ITC, very little defense in gear, and ZERO true defensive feats. Not being in Stealth, with ITC on CD equates to death.
Wizards have their ranged CC, GWF's have their OP-ness, Guardian Fighters have their block and high defense, Hunter Rangers have their 6 dodges, range and double the encounters any class can have, DC's have their heals. We have our Stealth, it makes AND breaks our class. Tell me, since you seem to have some sort of rough idea about how we should be played, without Stealth what exactly should we do to keep up with the meta where AoE is king for PVE, and survival is king for PVP?
If the devs are planning to balance it, I've got no qualms against it. The only thing we can do when it comes is to provide feedback. We can only hope they do things right. But the tears will never end, trust me. As long as you guys never have it easy, your tears against our class will keep on flowing.
We'll try to make the process faster, though. Lots of other fun ways to play the TR class. Have you guys ever seen a PVP build with ITC only having an effective cooldown of 5 seconds? It's easy to guess what happens within those 5 seconds it's on CD. Anyway, that's just one of them. Lot's of surprising ways one can play a TR. We'll do our best to make sure that people keep on complaining so we get nerfed faster. The wait is just agonizing!
never heard a single person complain about TR...
Ofc if you are one of those pug that get trolled by TR 24/7 i believe u will rage...
Ergo soloing these bosses by using that build is an exploit by definition (sorry to bring this word so often here). We do not want to nerf any class, but please understand that there are many players who are very unhappy about that current situation.
EDIT: And the point is not that we want to remove stealth from the game (when I read though some responses I sometimes have the feeling that people think that), but to finally remove this build from the game, because it is frequently used to exploit in pve and pvp. Other abilities can be changed instead, when it turns out that it becomes unbalanced. But this is an entirely different discussion.
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
hahaha wow
agreed. even with a lot of deflect, rogues will just die outside of stealth/ITC as everyone spams cc like there is no tomorrow and we can't. deft strike can buy us like 2 seconds though as it's a free re-positioning to someone less dangerous while we wait on cooldowns but not the best form of buying time.
can't gwf's do the same thing if they are really decked out? i am pretty sure i heard about them soloing dungeons just as easily.
the nerf bat is always aimed at rogues
Butters TR PVP
colonelwing makes a great point- in all other MMOs, stealth is a temporary thing with penalties because it's extremely powerful to not be able to see or do anything to another player when he's right next to you.
Usually you can use stealth to get some initial suprise hits, but then you have to leave combat to use it again. Rogues in this game can basically just stay stealthed forever. It's insane and it's no fun at all to play against.