I have read all ten pages in this thread and a multitude of other threads regarding the PermaStealth. I am going to throw out my two coppers as well.
First, I am a nice squishy CW, I die a LOT, I can accept that. I hardly get any kills, but do get a lot of assists, I can accept that as well. I bought the token and respeced my toon so it could try to compensate for hitting enemies that I can not see. Irritating but done on the learning curve, so acceptable.
Basically, I have seen this issue boil down into two basic sides. Those that think you must be perfect at running the stealth otherwise they die instantly, (which think their class should not be touched). And those that are irritated at never seeing their opponent, (and think they should be nerfed in some way).
A few random points that I would like to mention. I am not gonna bother going back to figure out exactly to who they are aimed at, but if the shoe fits wear it.
I would like to thank those that have provided help to those of us who are squishy against you.
Sadly, I have seen a lot more of the other type of player, which is basically say that anyone who voices an opinion against their class is just crying, and even more sadly this includes the mods of this forum.
A lot of players are complaining that PVP in these circumstance is no fun, which is supposed to be the point of the game, if they are not having fun they quit playing. Yes, YOU may be having fun squishing all of them and laughing about it, but run enough off the game and it folds.
Yes, they should learn how to play at least the class they chose, but saying they should create 5 different toons to learn how to play all of them is a bit of overreaching. Likewise saying they should have to change game settings is a bridge too far as well. However, changing skills is sound advice.
Re the chatter of "other games", I do not care. I do not play those games and I do play Neverwinter. If I want to learn how those games work I will go play them.
Now I will give my opinion regarding being invisible. NW is based on the Forgotten Realms. I have not played the actual RPG, but I have been reading the books since the mid nineties. The laws of magic in the Forgotten Realms state that ANY form of attack immediately dispels invisibility. There are no exceptions for this, including for the gods themselves. (See the avatar quintet for examples of this.) This applies to all types of invisibility including psionics. So if I were making the change it would be that you could remain invisible as long as you want until you attack, at which point it would dispel, I would even give a base damage increase to any attack while invisible. But you would have to stop attacking to go invisible again. Simple and it follows the laws of magic of the realms this game is based on. As I do not play the HR, I am sure other tweaks would need to follow as well, I leave that to the pros to figure out.
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I've been mostly happy with the latest patch. I still usually get underpowered or overpowered teams to fight with though. Actually more 1 or 2 really good PvP guys in a team full of poorly equipped nubs. To be honest those I play with, and myself included, are all mid-level at PvP so we see a bit of everything I think. But today I've seen the worst of it: four perma rouges and a pug CW (I guess their fifth rouge was out sick). The best we could do is get a cap for a short period. We were really baffled on how to deal with them. Usually when we run across a perma TR we just avoid them, but there were just too many this time. As a CW I ran through every trick mentioned in this forum post to no avail. We had a DC with us who would occasionally snag one in chains and we would pour on damage as fast as possible. The rouge would usually just dart away while his buddies continued to kill us in a bile poison heap.
There appears to be a short window where they lose stealth, but they seem to do two dodges during this time and go right back in to it. Since they are dodges there is nothing we can hit them with during that time. Occasionally I can hit them in the split second at the end of the second dodge before they re-stealth but that doesn't do that much good as they can just go off somewhere unseen and recoup the loss to their stealth meter.
I like truckula's idea: if they attack they should be visible.
truckula, that's how stealth works in most games, a on/off toggle without time limit that makes you appear when you attack (sometimes there is some sort of attack that doesn't make you visible but doesn't do damage or too little)
I have no problem if they would change it to this, only IF stealth won't deplete itself by time. But having it deplete over time, and also making you appear when you strike is not a good change.
A stealth rework is on the works probably so we'll see how that goes.
spongebob: It's rogue not rouge please, we're not cosmetic powder or lipstick XD. Also A rogue needs more time than just 2 dodges to replenish his stealth meter and being able to enter stealth again, even with the feat to recover 10% stealth meter when dodging.
I like truckula's idea: if they attack they should be visible.
That would require reworking at least 2 of the 3 feat trees in each paragon, as they contain feats that boost damage while in stealth. In fact the feat trees are full of feats to prolong stealth, or grant additional effects while in stealth. Y'see, it's abundantly clear that the devs designed TRs to be in stealth as much as possible.
What some folk are talking about on here would pretty much be a whole different class.
that's true twilightwatchman, if there is a stealth rework, we'll have to see how much it'll affect.
To me, the best defense against a perma rogue is Potb, works wonders.
Also A rogue needs more time than just 2 dodges to replenish his stealth meter and being able to enter stealth again, even with the feat to recover 10% stealth meter when dodging.
It's called Shadow Strike. The small delay for the stealth refill is the reason for the two dodges.
That would require reworking at least 2 of the 3 feat trees in each paragon
If the first strike is considered from stealth how would that require a change to any feat? Please feel free to elaborate and detail one or more feats that would need reworked. The un-stealth after the hit only needs to last a second or two to give opponents a small chance to possibly hit the TR.
Maybe TRs *should* be reworked to make them more viable in PvE too.
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doriangreighMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 707Arc User
edited March 2014
I am sure there are threads out there about this, but it would be nice if the programmers/developers would actually address this issue, either by officially announcing they think this is fair balanced game play or that it's being abused and no real solution is available.
Regardless I am wanting to start a petition about the perma stealth abilities of the Rogue. I read constantly how rogues get nerfed but the one ability that gets abused the most appears to get even more ability to abuse it. I don't care that rogues can be single target nukes that can potentially kill someone in one hit (as long as they can't do it repeatedly in a short time span).
NOBODY wants to play against people in pvp that cannot be targeted, especially when aoe's are limited in what can hit them not to mention now with the new pvp gear and tanacity dots and OF don't seem to knock them out of stealth like they used to.
PVP WILL become unplayable once the majority of people start jumping onto the TR perma build band wagon, which i'm noticing a lot more of now. I fought a team recently with 4 TR with perma builds all played by players of varying skill (some actually dropping out of stealth longer than others) and I have to say it was the most miserable experience I ever had. Its really getting to the point that if there are even 2 perma stealths on a team its getting to the point i'd rather just quit. OR at least make it so that you can see the make up of the opposing team and allow you to decline PVP based on the opposing team composition. I know thats not really a viable option but fighting a group of all or nearly all perma stealths is worse than fighting an entire group of GWF with unlimited unstopable, at least the latter can be targetted and dealt damage to.
If it were possible it seems rogues should either have stealth be more a system for DR than invisibility and then give them more control type powers based on paragon path or build preference (rogues would make excellent crowd control if they were given abilities like smoke cloud [which they have] and things like greasy floors and or snare traps that can be laid or thrown out. I think rogues can be so much more than invisible a$$holes (to quote borderlands 2) that throw daggers at you til you bleed to death and or die.
Human being are incapable of NOT abusing something for their own benefit so please do the community a favor remove the ability to allow TR to stay nearly permanently invisible either by adding a cool down before stealth can occur and beefing up the meter duration through feets or ability use or by removing the mechanic that allows it to happen.
Official statements on upcoming ideas for reworking perma stealth builds. (However, it is said that no final solution has been determined and that these are just ideas, but they do intend to do reworking to affect these builds.):
They have many powerful abilities (ITC, SE etc), but as long as they can go around attacking and untargettable in stealth, they are OP, and as long as they defend their ability to do so, the other abilities will continue to be nerfed.
GWFs are powerful but at least I can see them and dodge their abilities and target them and damage them. With rogues it's just total BS.
It's gotten to the point where I look before I start a match to see if there's any rogues on the other team. If there are, I resign myself to having a frustrating and annoying match (there are most of the time).
This thread will probably be locked like all the hundreds of others asking for nerfs to perma-stealth, though.
My Harem: Dawn HR, Erin CW, Piper TR, Zoe GWF
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ranncoreMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2,508
edited March 2014
Most perma stealth TRs are not at all dangerous. I can put my GF on the node and AFK to counter him. They're just boring. They can't kill me and I can't kill them, so instead of PvPing we run in circles around each other while the rest of our team actually has fun playing domination.
Most permastealths don't do enough dps to kill an 80 year old quadriplegic with emphysema. Their only role is to backcap and divide an enemies team by being an annoyance.
True perma stealth rogues don't do serious damage, and can easily be defeated with AoE attacks, that drain their stealth meter.
I always use PotB on my rogue to drain the other stealth meter, and others use it on me.
A stealth rework might get somewhere, but as far as I know they haven't decided yet.
1.- Then your phone is wrong, rogue is the correct name, not rouge.
2.- I know about SS, but if you're using it you don't need to roll at all, you can just use it and steathmeter fills up completely. If a rogue is rolling on the floor to recover stealth he probably doesn't have SS aviable to use.
3.- Rogues have feats that make certain attacks recover stealthmeter, how could these work if any attack takes you out of stealth?
Also if the idea is to have stealth both as a on/off toggle and have it end when attacking, then why would you need something that recovers a stealthmeter that wouldn't even exist?
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
Most perma stealth TRs are not at all dangerous. I can put my GF on the node and AFK to counter him. They're just boring. They can't kill me and I can't kill them, so instead of PvPing we run in circles around each other while the rest of our team actually has fun playing domination.
This is not true .
One perma tr in enemy team is not a big problem but!!! If they have two then y and your team have 0 chance to win also after y have 20% of your hp lost he just need to press win button"SE".
And this is the sad true about perma tr .
Two perma Trs in your or enemy team always win the only way to counter is y have two permas in your team "this mean y must all time go premade".
3.- Rogues have feats that make certain attacks recover stealthmeter, how could these work if any attack takes you out of stealth?
Because the meter fills when you are not in stealth. And as I already stated the first attack is still considered "from stealth" since you were in stealth mode when you fired it.
Appears Cryptic is already working on a fix to perma stealth so this won't be an issue much longer. Thank goodness.
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chaoscourtesanMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2014
Every class has some worthless or low-value powers and feats in its battery. I wonder if they could introduce something useful in place of some of those such as an encounter that at least partially exposes stealthed players and allows targeting, while reducing that player's combat advantage for the duration? I mean, perma-stealth issues aside, they should consider some more pvp oriented selections. It would be a way of balancing that involves boosting the troubled class rather than nerfing the troubling class.
I don't perma-stealth, but I don't PvP either. My stealth works reasonably in PvE and it seriously does not need any changes in that area.
Rhyon Cawdorian GWF | Opa Loka TR | Cormac Argentus III DC | Annika Thornblade GF | Aerys Skydark HR | Bartin Findlor TR | Aellia Baalthrall CW | Lucan Hawkmoon CW | Opa Brahk GWF | Korzbyrk DC | Den Kruk GWF | Jherek Skarsin CW |
Roland Mac Sheonin GF | Tarron Direheart SW |
So you want stealth to still be depleted by time and ALSO when you attack? I think that would make it useless. You COULD make it like other games and have it with no time limit and make you appear when you attack, but have it deplete over time and also when you attack would make it completely useless.
ITC, Shadow strike and feats/gear that give more stealth meters are the problem not stealth itself, would gladly trade those for more damage or stuns but then I would be right here reading the same post about TR dmg and stunlocks. *shrug*
ITC, Shadow strike and feats/gear that give more stealth meters are the problem not stealth itself, would gladly trade those for more damage or stuns but then I would be right here reading the same post about TR dmg and stunlocks. *shrug*
This exactly.
Lets say for example they do nerf Perma stealth so that it is no longer viable. What could they possibly give us to replace the defining feature of our class?
Crowd Control - nope cant do that, that is why we have CW's in the game. Rogue's should never have a ton of CC, a little is fine which is what we already have.
More Damage - nope cant do that either as then the next thread to pop up is that we can burst damage to much again and we can kill other players to fast.
so really if they do nerf stealth into the ground where does the class go?
This is just getting anoying... Seriously, aint there any control over the number of ''nerf this, nerf that'' thread that can be made in a single week? I see threads asking to nerf GWF getting closed stating ''nerf threads are not accepted in this forum'' and the tr's one are there daily with nothing done to it.....
First, the TR is better in pvp you wana know why ? CAUSE WE CANT DO ANYTHING IN A DUNGEON this is a PVP only class... Useless in dungeon and that no one want to bring over in any runs.... So they had to give something for the tr to be usefull, to do something... Here is our sole and only way... Pvp... Either do a burst damage inb4 dying by the other people that suround the only target you will use all your damage burst on or just hold 1 point and survive as long as you can so your team get the other points while the enemy try to find you like headless chicken... (lol)
That behing said: Permastealth rogue are not that hard to reveal or counter, any good GF/DC can tank a real perma stealth damage forever as the permastealth dont have any damage ability other than cloud of steel witch throw 8 dagger every 20 second or so and do basicaly no damage.... They have shocking if lucky enought to fall on someone who will attack the bait n switch clone (but then thats because you need to be aware of what is happening when fighting a perma, just dont attack the clone DONT)
Every class can kill a tr as soon as they see them revealed...
GF and GWF can just perma stun lock them till they die because get real... Knock back + frontline + IBS = death of any rogue. (or maby frontline first with the area of effect on a point 1/2 chance to hit the rogue and get him off stealth.. how hard is that?
Cw can just control them to death. Shard of avalanche is a great way to anoye and perma tr if put on tab...
Hr are realy hard to kill since new patch for any perma and contructing arrow can be anoying, not to talk about that fox shift that can hit stealthed tr...
DC could use sun burst or just stand there waiting cuz get real, no real perma stealth could kill a good dc...
Then again, some people just want to play their build and use the same encounter over and over again, but some encounter are to be used in certain circonstance. If you end up againts 4 perma (you're not lucky #1) but what about getting out all your aoe skill? have a gwf stand on one point, a gf on other and dc+cw/hr on middle point? Try different strategie ? Dont let yourself down and stop crying everytime someone outgears you or kill you super fast...
Often, way too often, i end up on a team that just wreck me (on my tr) every possible way they can find and thats when it get interesting, when people actualy think a way off killing you...
For exemple, a friend of mine in my guild is a cw, he worked on ways to kill tr as he was anoyed by us, he never made any threads asking help of developer, instead he looked into option already in game... He changed his encounter rotation to get shard on tab. He then realised that icy ray could stuck us for a little time, long enought to choke us and use icy knife.
Other ways he came with was the bilethorn enchant witch give 3 damage ticks per attack instead of 1, witch cause tr stealth meter to drop 3time as fast as usual... He was then thinking of using Briartwine on his armor, witch cause all of our attack to just deplete our stealth..
what about some thinking of yourself? There is PLENTY of way to beat ANY class in here, find your way, work it out...
In life, when something dont work, you do something to work around it dont you ? Or maybe do you send letter to your politician? Do you ever get any answer from those letter? Dont think so... So work your way. You should depend on yourself and no one else.!
Founder back a week ago, already pissed by cryptic ''no roll back'' decision
First, the TR is better in pvp you wana know why ? CAUSE WE CANT DO ANYTHING IN A DUNGEON this is a PVP only class
First that is blunt understatement every single class is a pvp class in that respect but cw:s.
Second you defend being able to attack and get attacked and stay invis in pvp, that is just lol.
Find me any other larget pvp game where you can stay invis while attacking and being attacked plz.
The scenario of only 1 class on each side fighting domination becomes rather funny when you think of 5 perma hide tr on each side trying to find eachother - what a shoot out zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!!
If you dont see that the consept of being invis while hitting others and stay invis when hit is pure nonsence in pvp you should find a pc game set yourself to immortal and run around.
attacking a stealthed rogue depletes his stealth meter, and might very possibly **** up his whole rotation. so just hit them with aoes untill they appear.
First that is blunt understatement every single class is a pvp class in that respect but cw:s.
Second you defend being able to attack and get attacked and stay invis in pvp, that is just lol.
Find me any other larget pvp game where you can stay invis while attacking and being attacked plz.
The scenario of only 1 class on each side fighting domination becomes rather funny when you think of 5 perma hide tr on each side trying to find eachother - what a shoot out zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!!
If you dont see that the consept of being invis while hitting others and stay invis when hit is pure nonsence in pvp you should find a pc game set yourself to immortal and run around.
You are just being a little arogant here...
1:Cw = a VERY good pvp class, when BUILDED for pvp. Refer to a REAL renage PVP build cw and they will tell you. CW = Very good pvp class
2: I defend the ability to attack people AT A LOW DAMAGE RATE, while the other CAN find us IF THEY TRY HARDER and DIFFERENTLY. I don't care about other game at all, i play neverwinter and nothing else... Here, the rogue have permastealth. Deal with it... (ex: read my post completely and use some of the way i just provided here? maybe?)
3: Yea 5 perma is pretty funny and stupid, i wouldnt go in a 5 tr party, i was refering to this post op who complained about a match whenre he ended againts 4 tr.. Please read before you comment
4: Perma invis is FAR from invincible. Perma = sacrifice all their damage ability to get access to the dark side of the force.
Perma have the lowest dps amongs all class (other than dc of course)
Perma have the lowest defense amongs all class
Perma have the lowest pve capability amongs all class
And you wana take that away... That will leave the producer with 1 and only choice:
Completely rebuild the class to make it viable in pve and balanced in pvp.
More CC or more aoe !? What kind of rogue is this ?
More burst ? HAHAH youll hate us even more because get real, a perma with 21 intel, put this intel in stenght and you will see that we can do good damage already just decided to go on another way..
Anyway this have been discused already lot of time and i cant find ANY of you guys giving a real solution to your ''problem'' i give you ways of fighting a perma but no one want to use em (other than a couple of handfull wise man that just work their way around)
Come with some other argument than :
''It have never been seen before, no game have this'': Well neverwinter is unique pve and pvp style (Thanks god)
''There is no way to find them'' : There is plenty, just need to think out of the box (Ex: All single target soulforged/vorpal pve build.)
Im going to stop there because thats all the argument that have been given in the last 10 threads on the subject...
Founder back a week ago, already pissed by cryptic ''no roll back'' decision
Im just going to add some of my other post here for yall to read!!!
Please take notes that some comment might be directed to another poster's comment from another of the 50 threads about rogue nerf
This is just getting anoying... Seriously, aint there any control over the number of ''nerf this, nerf that'' thread that can be made in a single week? I see threads asking to nerf GWF getting closed stating ''nerf threads are not accepted in this forum'' and the tr's one are there daily with nothing done to it.....
First, the TR is better in pvp you wana know why ? CAUSE WE CANT DO ANYTHING IN A DUNGEON this is a PVP only class... Useless in dungeon and that no one want to bring over in any runs.... So they had to give something for the tr to be usefull, to do something... Here is our sole and only way... Pvp... Either do a burst damage inb4 dying by the other people that suround the only target you will use all your damage burst on or just hold 1 point and survive as long as you can so your team get the other points while the enemy try to find you like headless chicken... (lol)
That behing said: Permastealth rogue are not that hard to reveal or counter, any good GF/DC can tank a real perma stealth damage forever as the permastealth dont have any damage ability other than cloud of steel witch throw 8 dagger every 20 second or so and do basicaly no damage.... They have shocking if lucky enought to fall on someone who will attack the bait n switch clone (but then thats because you need to be aware of what is happening when fighting a perma, just dont attack the clone DONT)
Every class can kill a tr as soon as they see them revealed...
GF and GWF can just perma stun lock them till they die because get real... Knock back + frontline + IBS = death of any rogue. (or maby frontline first with the area of effect on a point 1/2 chance to hit the rogue and get him off stealth.. how hard is that?
Cw can just control them to death. Shard of avalanche is a great way to anoye and perma tr if put on tab...
Hr are realy hard to kill since new patch for any perma and contructing arrow can be anoying, not to talk about that fox shift that can hit stealthed tr...
DC could use sun burst or just stand there waiting cuz get real, no real perma stealth could kill a good dc...
Then again, some people just want to play their build and use the same encounter over and over again, but some encounter are to be used in certain circonstance. If you end up againts 4 perma (you're not lucky #1) but what about getting out all your aoe skill? have a gwf stand on one point, a gf on other and dc+cw/hr on middle point? Try different strategie ? Dont let yourself down and stop crying everytime someone outgears you or kill you super fast...
Often, way too often, i end up on a team that just wreck me (on my tr) every possible way they can find and thats when it get interesting, when people actualy think a way off killing you...
For exemple, a friend of mine in my guild is a cw, he worked on ways to kill tr as he was anoyed by us, he never made any threads asking help of developer, instead he looked into option already in game... He changed his encounter rotation to get shard on tab. He then realised that icy ray could stuck us for a little time, long enought to choke us and use icy knife.
Other ways he came with was the bilethorn enchant witch give 3 damage ticks per attack instead of 1, witch cause tr stealth meter to drop 3time as fast as usual... He was then thinking of using Briartwine on his armor, witch cause all of our attack to just deplete our stealth..
what about some thinking of yourself? There is PLENTY of way to beat ANY class in here, find your way, work it out...
In life, when something dont work, you do something to work around it dont you ? Or maybe do you send letter to your politician? Do you ever get any answer from those letter? Dont think so... So work your way. You should depend on yourself and no one else.!
First that is blunt understatement every single class is a pvp class in that respect but cw:s.
Second you defend being able to attack and get attacked and stay invis in pvp, that is just lol.
Find me any other larget pvp game where you can stay invis while attacking and being attacked plz.
The scenario of only 1 class on each side fighting domination becomes rather funny when you think of 5 perma hide tr on each side trying to find eachother - what a shoot out zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!!
If you dont see that the consept of being invis while hitting others and stay invis when hit is pure nonsence in pvp you should find a pc game set yourself to immortal and run around.
1:Cw = a VERY good pvp class, when BUILDED for pvp. Refer to a REAL renage PVP build cw and they will tell you. CW = Very good pvp class
2: I defend the ability to attack people AT A LOW DAMAGE RATE, while the other CAN find us IF THEY TRY HARDER and DIFFERENTLY. I don't care about other game at all, i play neverwinter and nothing else... Here, the rogue have permastealth. Deal with it... (ex: read my post completely and use some of the way i just provided here? maybe?)
3: Yea 5 perma is pretty funny and stupid, i wouldnt go in a 5 tr party, i was refering to this post op who complained about a match whenre he ended againts 4 tr.. Please read before you comment
4: Perma invis is FAR from invincible. Perma = sacrifice all their damage ability to get access to the dark side of the force.
Perma have the lowest dps amongs all class (other than dc of course)
Perma have the lowest defense amongs all class
Perma have the lowest pve capability amongs all class
And you wana take that away... That will leave the producer with 1 and only choice:
Completely rebuild the class to make it viable in pve and balanced in pvp.
More CC or more aoe !? What kind of rogue is this ?
More burst ? HAHAH youll hate us even more because get real, a perma with 21 intel, put this intel in stenght and you will see that we can do good damage already just decided to go on another way..
Anyway this have been discused already lot of time and i cant find ANY of you guys giving a real solution to your ''problem'' i give you ways of fighting a perma but no one want to use em (other than a couple of handfull wise man that just work their way around)
Come with some other argument than :
''It have never been seen before, no game have this'': Well neverwinter is unique pve and pvp style (Thanks god)
''There is no way to find them'' : There is plenty, just need to think out of the box (Ex: All single target soulforged/vorpal pve build.)
Im going to stop there because thats all the argument that have been given in the last 10 threads on the subject...
Founder back a week ago, already pissed by cryptic ''no roll back'' decision
To weigh in:
Permas ARE annoying. SS, Bait and Switch, ITC rogues particularly are annoying. They cant kill anything and you can't kill them. (Who would roll a toon like that!?) Seasoned pvpers have means to get permas out of stealth. For anyone newer to pvp, try different techniques and powers to conquer this obstacle.
But, only extremely geared/skilled permas are good (and they are very good). And to nerf them they would need buffed elsewhere significantly.
The ability for rogues to perma stealth needs to be taken away and replaced with better options. Not because the build is OP, It's not. One melee foxes cunning burst and 95% of the rogues I hit explode in a shower of glorious red death. The reasons it needs to go away is because it's not fun for anyone. Not to play against nor to play with. I hate em on my team I think they're about Fin worthless. It's a troll build, nothing more nothing less. Stealth needs to stay an integral part for a rogue but once they initiate combat, they come out of stealth. They have a nasty opener from stealth, it should bloody well hurt, much like an old school back stab. They should also have an execute ability that again....bloody well well hurts a target beneath say..30% health. They should have more attacks that bleed and cripple and slow. You know some trademark rogue abilities. The rogue SHOULD be the anti GWF class. It should be it's counter, but they nerfed the rogues damage into the dirt leaving only perma stealth as an option. This is cryptics fault entirely. The class needs a major rework at this point.
attacking a stealthed rogue depletes his stealth meter, and might very possibly **** up his whole rotation. so just hit them with aoes untill they appear.
You expect classes to slot in AOEs in their rotation in a PVP match?
Comments
I have read all ten pages in this thread and a multitude of other threads regarding the PermaStealth. I am going to throw out my two coppers as well.
First, I am a nice squishy CW, I die a LOT, I can accept that. I hardly get any kills, but do get a lot of assists, I can accept that as well. I bought the token and respeced my toon so it could try to compensate for hitting enemies that I can not see. Irritating but done on the learning curve, so acceptable.
Basically, I have seen this issue boil down into two basic sides. Those that think you must be perfect at running the stealth otherwise they die instantly, (which think their class should not be touched). And those that are irritated at never seeing their opponent, (and think they should be nerfed in some way).
A few random points that I would like to mention. I am not gonna bother going back to figure out exactly to who they are aimed at, but if the shoe fits wear it.
I would like to thank those that have provided help to those of us who are squishy against you.
Sadly, I have seen a lot more of the other type of player, which is basically say that anyone who voices an opinion against their class is just crying, and even more sadly this includes the mods of this forum.
A lot of players are complaining that PVP in these circumstance is no fun, which is supposed to be the point of the game, if they are not having fun they quit playing. Yes, YOU may be having fun squishing all of them and laughing about it, but run enough off the game and it folds.
Yes, they should learn how to play at least the class they chose, but saying they should create 5 different toons to learn how to play all of them is a bit of overreaching. Likewise saying they should have to change game settings is a bridge too far as well. However, changing skills is sound advice.
Re the chatter of "other games", I do not care. I do not play those games and I do play Neverwinter. If I want to learn how those games work I will go play them.
Now I will give my opinion regarding being invisible. NW is based on the Forgotten Realms. I have not played the actual RPG, but I have been reading the books since the mid nineties. The laws of magic in the Forgotten Realms state that ANY form of attack immediately dispels invisibility. There are no exceptions for this, including for the gods themselves. (See the avatar quintet for examples of this.) This applies to all types of invisibility including psionics. So if I were making the change it would be that you could remain invisible as long as you want until you attack, at which point it would dispel, I would even give a base damage increase to any attack while invisible. But you would have to stop attacking to go invisible again. Simple and it follows the laws of magic of the realms this game is based on. As I do not play the HR, I am sure other tweaks would need to follow as well, I leave that to the pros to figure out.
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There appears to be a short window where they lose stealth, but they seem to do two dodges during this time and go right back in to it. Since they are dodges there is nothing we can hit them with during that time. Occasionally I can hit them in the split second at the end of the second dodge before they re-stealth but that doesn't do that much good as they can just go off somewhere unseen and recoup the loss to their stealth meter.
I like truckula's idea: if they attack they should be visible.
I have no problem if they would change it to this, only IF stealth won't deplete itself by time. But having it deplete over time, and also making you appear when you strike is not a good change.
A stealth rework is on the works probably so we'll see how that goes.
spongebob: It's rogue not rouge please, we're not cosmetic powder or lipstick XD. Also A rogue needs more time than just 2 dodges to replenish his stealth meter and being able to enter stealth again, even with the feat to recover 10% stealth meter when dodging.
What some folk are talking about on here would pretty much be a whole different class.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
To me, the best defense against a perma rogue is Potb, works wonders.
My phone says otherwise.
It's called Shadow Strike. The small delay for the stealth refill is the reason for the two dodges.
If the first strike is considered from stealth how would that require a change to any feat? Please feel free to elaborate and detail one or more feats that would need reworked. The un-stealth after the hit only needs to last a second or two to give opponents a small chance to possibly hit the TR.
Maybe TRs *should* be reworked to make them more viable in PvE too.
Regardless I am wanting to start a petition about the perma stealth abilities of the Rogue. I read constantly how rogues get nerfed but the one ability that gets abused the most appears to get even more ability to abuse it. I don't care that rogues can be single target nukes that can potentially kill someone in one hit (as long as they can't do it repeatedly in a short time span).
NOBODY wants to play against people in pvp that cannot be targeted, especially when aoe's are limited in what can hit them not to mention now with the new pvp gear and tanacity dots and OF don't seem to knock them out of stealth like they used to.
PVP WILL become unplayable once the majority of people start jumping onto the TR perma build band wagon, which i'm noticing a lot more of now. I fought a team recently with 4 TR with perma builds all played by players of varying skill (some actually dropping out of stealth longer than others) and I have to say it was the most miserable experience I ever had. Its really getting to the point that if there are even 2 perma stealths on a team its getting to the point i'd rather just quit. OR at least make it so that you can see the make up of the opposing team and allow you to decline PVP based on the opposing team composition. I know thats not really a viable option but fighting a group of all or nearly all perma stealths is worse than fighting an entire group of GWF with unlimited unstopable, at least the latter can be targetted and dealt damage to.
If it were possible it seems rogues should either have stealth be more a system for DR than invisibility and then give them more control type powers based on paragon path or build preference (rogues would make excellent crowd control if they were given abilities like smoke cloud [which they have] and things like greasy floors and or snare traps that can be laid or thrown out. I think rogues can be so much more than invisible a$$holes (to quote borderlands 2) that throw daggers at you til you bleed to death and or die.
Human being are incapable of NOT abusing something for their own benefit so please do the community a favor remove the ability to allow TR to stay nearly permanently invisible either by adding a cool down before stealth can occur and beefing up the meter duration through feets or ability use or by removing the mechanic that allows it to happen.
They are working on it.
They have many powerful abilities (ITC, SE etc), but as long as they can go around attacking and untargettable in stealth, they are OP, and as long as they defend their ability to do so, the other abilities will continue to be nerfed.
GWFs are powerful but at least I can see them and dodge their abilities and target them and damage them. With rogues it's just total BS.
It's gotten to the point where I look before I start a match to see if there's any rogues on the other team. If there are, I resign myself to having a frustrating and annoying match (there are most of the time).
This thread will probably be locked like all the hundreds of others asking for nerfs to perma-stealth, though.
I always use PotB on my rogue to drain the other stealth meter, and others use it on me.
A stealth rework might get somewhere, but as far as I know they haven't decided yet.
2.- I know about SS, but if you're using it you don't need to roll at all, you can just use it and steathmeter fills up completely. If a rogue is rolling on the floor to recover stealth he probably doesn't have SS aviable to use.
3.- Rogues have feats that make certain attacks recover stealthmeter, how could these work if any attack takes you out of stealth?
Also if the idea is to have stealth both as a on/off toggle and have it end when attacking, then why would you need something that recovers a stealthmeter that wouldn't even exist?
This is not true .
One perma tr in enemy team is not a big problem but!!! If they have two then y and your team have 0 chance to win also after y have 20% of your hp lost he just need to press win button"SE".
And this is the sad true about perma tr .
Two perma Trs in your or enemy team always win the only way to counter is y have two permas in your team "this mean y must all time go premade".
Possible. I will stick with rouge for fun.
Now you are just contradicting yourself: "Also A rogue needs more time than just 2 dodges to replenish his stealth meter"
Fire SS before stealth meter ends, two rolls, back to stealth. The rolls compensate for the time delay for SS. Pretty basic trick.
Because the meter fills when you are not in stealth. And as I already stated the first attack is still considered "from stealth" since you were in stealth mode when you fired it.
Appears Cryptic is already working on a fix to perma stealth so this won't be an issue much longer. Thank goodness.
I don't perma-stealth, but I don't PvP either. My stealth works reasonably in PvE and it seriously does not need any changes in that area.
Roland Mac Sheonin GF | Tarron Direheart SW |
I have latern but latern have too long animation and tr just roll out of the little radius ( only work aganst bad players lol ).
This exactly.
Lets say for example they do nerf Perma stealth so that it is no longer viable. What could they possibly give us to replace the defining feature of our class?
Crowd Control - nope cant do that, that is why we have CW's in the game. Rogue's should never have a ton of CC, a little is fine which is what we already have.
More Damage - nope cant do that either as then the next thread to pop up is that we can burst damage to much again and we can kill other players to fast.
so really if they do nerf stealth into the ground where does the class go?
Btw - i dont run a perma stealth build.
First, the TR is better in pvp you wana know why ? CAUSE WE CANT DO ANYTHING IN A DUNGEON this is a PVP only class... Useless in dungeon and that no one want to bring over in any runs.... So they had to give something for the tr to be usefull, to do something... Here is our sole and only way... Pvp... Either do a burst damage inb4 dying by the other people that suround the only target you will use all your damage burst on or just hold 1 point and survive as long as you can so your team get the other points while the enemy try to find you like headless chicken... (lol)
That behing said: Permastealth rogue are not that hard to reveal or counter, any good GF/DC can tank a real perma stealth damage forever as the permastealth dont have any damage ability other than cloud of steel witch throw 8 dagger every 20 second or so and do basicaly no damage.... They have shocking if lucky enought to fall on someone who will attack the bait n switch clone (but then thats because you need to be aware of what is happening when fighting a perma, just dont attack the clone DONT)
Every class can kill a tr as soon as they see them revealed...
GF and GWF can just perma stun lock them till they die because get real... Knock back + frontline + IBS = death of any rogue. (or maby frontline first with the area of effect on a point 1/2 chance to hit the rogue and get him off stealth.. how hard is that?
Cw can just control them to death. Shard of avalanche is a great way to anoye and perma tr if put on tab...
Hr are realy hard to kill since new patch for any perma and contructing arrow can be anoying, not to talk about that fox shift that can hit stealthed tr...
DC could use sun burst or just stand there waiting cuz get real, no real perma stealth could kill a good dc...
Then again, some people just want to play their build and use the same encounter over and over again, but some encounter are to be used in certain circonstance. If you end up againts 4 perma (you're not lucky #1) but what about getting out all your aoe skill? have a gwf stand on one point, a gf on other and dc+cw/hr on middle point? Try different strategie ? Dont let yourself down and stop crying everytime someone outgears you or kill you super fast...
Often, way too often, i end up on a team that just wreck me (on my tr) every possible way they can find and thats when it get interesting, when people actualy think a way off killing you...
For exemple, a friend of mine in my guild is a cw, he worked on ways to kill tr as he was anoyed by us, he never made any threads asking help of developer, instead he looked into option already in game... He changed his encounter rotation to get shard on tab. He then realised that icy ray could stuck us for a little time, long enought to choke us and use icy knife.
Other ways he came with was the bilethorn enchant witch give 3 damage ticks per attack instead of 1, witch cause tr stealth meter to drop 3time as fast as usual... He was then thinking of using Briartwine on his armor, witch cause all of our attack to just deplete our stealth..
what about some thinking of yourself? There is PLENTY of way to beat ANY class in here, find your way, work it out...
In life, when something dont work, you do something to work around it dont you ? Or maybe do you send letter to your politician? Do you ever get any answer from those letter? Dont think so... So work your way. You should depend on yourself and no one else.!
Second you defend being able to attack and get attacked and stay invis in pvp, that is just lol.
Find me any other larget pvp game where you can stay invis while attacking and being attacked plz.
The scenario of only 1 class on each side fighting domination becomes rather funny when you think of 5 perma hide tr on each side trying to find eachother - what a shoot out zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!!
If you dont see that the consept of being invis while hitting others and stay invis when hit is pure nonsence in pvp you should find a pc game set yourself to immortal and run around.
You are just being a little arogant here...
1:Cw = a VERY good pvp class, when BUILDED for pvp. Refer to a REAL renage PVP build cw and they will tell you. CW = Very good pvp class
2: I defend the ability to attack people AT A LOW DAMAGE RATE, while the other CAN find us IF THEY TRY HARDER and DIFFERENTLY. I don't care about other game at all, i play neverwinter and nothing else... Here, the rogue have permastealth. Deal with it... (ex: read my post completely and use some of the way i just provided here? maybe?)
3: Yea 5 perma is pretty funny and stupid, i wouldnt go in a 5 tr party, i was refering to this post op who complained about a match whenre he ended againts 4 tr.. Please read before you comment
4: Perma invis is FAR from invincible. Perma = sacrifice all their damage ability to get access to the dark side of the force.
Perma have the lowest dps amongs all class (other than dc of course)
Perma have the lowest defense amongs all class
Perma have the lowest pve capability amongs all class
And you wana take that away... That will leave the producer with 1 and only choice:
Completely rebuild the class to make it viable in pve and balanced in pvp.
More CC or more aoe !? What kind of rogue is this ?
More burst ? HAHAH youll hate us even more because get real, a perma with 21 intel, put this intel in stenght and you will see that we can do good damage already just decided to go on another way..
Anyway this have been discused already lot of time and i cant find ANY of you guys giving a real solution to your ''problem'' i give you ways of fighting a perma but no one want to use em (other than a couple of handfull wise man that just work their way around)
Come with some other argument than :
''It have never been seen before, no game have this'': Well neverwinter is unique pve and pvp style (Thanks god)
''There is no way to find them'' : There is plenty, just need to think out of the box (Ex: All single target soulforged/vorpal pve build.)
Im going to stop there because thats all the argument that have been given in the last 10 threads on the subject...
Please take notes that some comment might be directed to another poster's comment from another of the 50 threads about rogue nerf
To weigh in:
Permas ARE annoying. SS, Bait and Switch, ITC rogues particularly are annoying. They cant kill anything and you can't kill them. (Who would roll a toon like that!?) Seasoned pvpers have means to get permas out of stealth. For anyone newer to pvp, try different techniques and powers to conquer this obstacle.
But, only extremely geared/skilled permas are good (and they are very good). And to nerf them they would need buffed elsewhere significantly.
You expect classes to slot in AOEs in their rotation in a PVP match?
That is a recipe for the other team winning