They're Klingons. They won't lie to you. It's dishonorable. That's the underlying problem here. The Federation does not understand the Klingon heart.
Huh? In TNG as shown on TV in actual Star Trek continuity the Klingon High Council lied to the Klingon populace in general (see TNG's "Sins of the Father") to "hold the Empire together" - then K'mpek was assassinated via slow poison (see TNG's "Reunion") and names an outsider as arbiter of succession because no Klingon can be trusted; and finally, there's a short but violent Klingon civil war (see TNG's "Redemption I" and "Redemption II"); where Gauron in the end, assumes leadership of the High Council and starts re-writing Klingon history to make it appear he rose to power, and defeated House Duras and exposed the Romulan plot all by himself (as referenced by Worf in TNG's "Unification I").
So tell us again how Klingons won't lie and use "Honor" as a smoke screen (a tactic the Federation has seen used by the Klingon Empire again and again.) There's even more examples from the Deep Space Nine TV series, but I think the point has been made.
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Huh? In TNG as shown on TV in actual Star Trek continuity the Klingon High Council lied to the Klingon populace in general (see TNG's "Sins of the Father") to "hold the Empire together" - then K'mpek was assassinated via slow poison (see TNG's "Reunion") and names an outsider as arbiter of succession because no Klingon can be trusted; and finally, there's a short but violent Klingon civil war (see TNG's "Redemption I" and "Redemption II"); where Gauron in the end, assumes leadership of the High Council and starts re-writing Klingon history to make it appear he rose to power, and defeated House Duras and exposed the Romulan plot all by himself (as referenced by Worf in TNG's "Unification I").
So tell us again how Klingons won't lie and use "Honor" as a smoke screen (a tactic the Federation has seen used by the Klingon Empire again and again.) There's even more examples from the Deep Space Nine TV series, but I think the point has been made.
No it hasn't. Worf put Martok in power specifically in order to stop all that TRIBBLE. Remember the speech that Ezri gave him?
Huh? In TNG as shown on TV in actual Star Trek continuity the Klingon High Council lied to the Klingon populace in general (see TNG's "Sins of the Father") to "hold the Empire together" - then K'mpek was assassinated via slow poison (see TNG's "Reunion") and names an outsider as arbiter of succession because no Klingon can be trusted; and finally, there's a short but violent Klingon civil war (see TNG's "Redemption I" and "Redemption II"); where Gauron in the end, assumes leadership of the High Council and starts re-writing Klingon history to make it appear he rose to power, and defeated House Duras and exposed the Romulan plot all by himself (as referenced by Worf in TNG's "Unification I").
So tell us again how Klingons won't lie and use "Honor" as a smoke screen (a tactic the Federation has seen used by the Klingon Empire again and again.) There's even more examples from the Deep Space Nine TV series, but I think the point has been made.
No it hasn't. Worf put Martok in power specifically in order to stop all that TRIBBLE. Remember the speech that Ezri gave him?
But Worf himself was complicit in "all that TRIBBLE" (as you put it) in the first place. Go watch the episodes mentioned. "Klingon Honor" even to Klingons has only been used to obscure their true motives and is more a tool in their political arsenal then a way of life for them.
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Huh? In TNG as shown on TV in actual Star Trek continuity the Klingon High Council lied to the Klingon populace in general (see TNG's "Sins of the Father") to "hold the Empire together" - then K'mpek was assassinated via slow poison (see TNG's "Reunion") and names an outsider as arbiter of succession because no Klingon can be trusted; and finally, there's a short but violent Klingon civil war (see TNG's "Redemption I" and "Redemption II"); where Gauron in the end, assumes leadership of the High Council and starts re-writing Klingon history to make it appear he rose to power, and defeated House Duras and exposed the Romulan plot all by himself (as referenced by Worf in TNG's "Unification I").
So tell us again how Klingons won't lie and use "Honor" as a smoke screen (a tactic the Federation has seen used by the Klingon Empire again and again.) There's even more examples from the Deep Space Nine TV series, but I think the point has been made.
No it hasn't. Worf put Martok in power specifically in order to stop all that TRIBBLE. Remember the speech that Ezri gave him?
And J'mpok killed Martok, under suspicious circumstances I might add.
The only problem with all of this that I have is that T'Ket shouldn't have known what a Romulan was. The Romulans didn't even exist at the time of Iconia's destruction.
And what exactly have the Klingons done to prove themselves trustworthy, when they have a long history of being completely wrong about everything?
They're Klingons. They won't lie to you. It's dishonorable. That's the underlying problem here. The Federation does not understand the Klingon heart.
Sure they do. They lie all the time, including to their allies.
Duras lied to everyone about Mogh's role in the Khitomer Massacre, which was the start of the whole Duras/Mogh interhouse feud.
"The Way of the Warrior": Gowron lied to the Federation about the real reason he stationed a battle group outside DS9. He claimed he wanted to help guard against Dominion invasion but he was just using it as a staging area for the invasion of Cardassia on the false supposition the Cardassian Revolution had been set up by the Founders.* Worf had to get one of Martok's generals drunk to get the real story.
To avoid getting overthrown, Gowron falsely declares victory in the Klingon-Cardassian War after the Cardies manage to stymie his unprovoked invasion despite simultaneously coming under Maquis attack.
See also: any officer of Imperial Klingon Intelligence ever. Lying is kind of a spy's job.
Protip: Your average Klingon off the street has about as much actual honor and integrity (explicitly part of quv, per The Klingon Dictionary) as a meth dealer who's had too much to drink. I vividly recall in "Apocalypse Rising" a mighty Klingon warrior bragging about how he had deliberately killed a Benzite Starfleet captain in one of the most painful manners possible: by ripping off her breathing apparatus so she'd suffocate. Explain to me how that kind of behavior is honorable by any standard.
* By the way, this is the reason the Federation didn't believe them about the Undine. The Klingons got completely played by shapeshifters once before, rolling out the red carpet for the Founders by breaking the strongest power bloc of the Alpha Quadrant (the Khitomer Accords alliance) and TRIBBLE Cardassia's first attempt at democracy in the bargain and driving them right into the Dominion's arms.
Now guess what happened with the Gorn. Oh, that's right, a shapeshifter-directed ship provoked the Klingons to attack the Gorn, resulting in a couple decades of on-and-off feuding and a breakdown in Fed-Klingon relations that ultimately resulted in the Klingons breaking the alliance and invading the Undines' fall guy, and then picking an unnecessary fight with the Federation that only weakened both sides for the eventual invasion in "Surface Tension". They got played by the shapeshifters. AGAIN!
Post edited by starswordc on
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Ok is this forum bugged? I see plain as day the words, "Yay, we won! And Sela doesn't get locked up for war crimes! Wait, what?" But all I see below it are the many ways, reasons, justifications why Klingons are just better off never having been.
Suspicious circumstances that Martok himself had requested. He wanted to fight behind closed doors. And so far I have seen no scheeming from J'mpok. He's rash, yes, but he's also honorable.
@crypticarmsman He was complicit by playing along so that the Empire remained stable. And that's exactly what Ezri called him on, causing him to take a stand against Gowron.
Suspicious circumstances that Martok himself had requested. He wanted to fight behind closed doors. And so far I have seen no scheeming from J'mpok. He's rash, yes, but he's also honorable.
@crypticarmsman He was complicit by playing along so that the Empire remained stable. And that's exactly what Ezri called him on, causing him to take a stand against Gowron.
^^^
Again, that just proves my point as it shows Klingons use their 'honor' in expedient and self serving ways and WILL lie (and do whatever they feel is in their best interest at the moment) to further their own personal goals. THUS, those that know Klingon politics well, know this fact - Klingons are at heart self serving and un-trustworthy. (Remember that Worf ALSO made Kurn hide his true bloodline so one day Worf could restore the Honor of his house - so again, there was more to Worf's actions then just keeping the Empire stable.)
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Suspicious circumstances that Martok himself had requested. He wanted to fight behind closed doors. And so far I have seen no scheeming from J'mpok. He's rash, yes, but he's also honorable.
Yes because there's no way that Jimmy Pok would lie about that would he..
Also, honourable? Honourable leaders do not stab long standing allies in the back then declare war on them simply because they criticise their actions.
Honourable leaders do not use suspicions of enemy infiltration into a foreign power to declare lebensraum on that foreign power and march their jack booted goons into their capital.
Honourable leaders do not attack civilians, sponsor raids on commercial traffic, sneak attack bases and allow criminally insane psychopaths like B'vat to run around looting, pillaging and using weapons of mass destruction.
Jimmy Pok is about as honourable as Vladimir Putin is democratically elected.
Genocide would certainly be considered a war crime if the Iconians were ever brought to trial, if it could be demonstrated that their acts were intended to eradicate a species, race, or culture.
They intended to eradicate everyone. The only survivors, if any, would have been Iconian slaves. More likely they'd be turned into Elachi (that process itself being a war crime of incalculable magnitude).
Exactly what is wrong with the statement I made, other than it somehow offends you? My statement is factually correct.
The problem with your statement is that it's completely wrong. You assume your conclusion by declaring everything the Iconians or Sela did as acts of war. They were acts of attempted genocide at worst and at best gross violations of any reasonable rules of engagement.
The planet Vulcan was a military target because the reigning government of that world was engaged in acts of subversion and disaffection with the lawful government of the Romulan Star Empire. This is cause for war in and of itself.
If only -- we'd be able to attack half the Muslim nations on earth under such a flimsy justification.
As for her objective to obliterate the Vulcan people, I would argue her purpose was to eliminate Vulcan as a threat to her Empire, and that destroying Vulcan would not eliminate the Vulcan race, which occupies several worlds and is dispersed among the many Federation worlds, starships, and stations.
It has been made clear in the Trek universe (cf. 2009 movie, e.g.) that the vast majority of most race's population is found on its homeworld, with humanity being perhaps the only significant exception. Cf. the Suliban for an example of a people who have lost their homeworld -- even hundreds of years later in the game's setting they're destitute refugees. Destroying a homeworld is tantamount to attempted genocide. Never mind that, again, under any reasonable rules of war the slaughter of billions of non-combatants can't possibly be justified.
You are correct. I should have said, "Show me an example of Sela committing any crime in any jurisdiction of the Federation.
Distinction without a difference.
A reigning monarch cannot be held accountable for her actions against her own people by the Federation.
Yes they can, WE DO IT ALL THE TIME. The TRIBBLE killed their own people and were held accountable for it. Saddam Hussein killed his own people and was held accountable for it. The entire international brou-ha-ha in Syria is over Bashir Assad killing his own people.
As Empress, Sela is entitled to oppress her own subjects until her subjects replace her.
No, she can't. Or rather, only within certain broad limits. E.g. women in Saudi Arabia not having the civil rights Americans think they should is an example of a repressive policy that does not provide casus belli. Nerve gassing dissident civilian populations does. This is going back to the whole "universal jurisdiction" thing. Crimes against sentience (since this is SF) remain such no matter who commits them or where. The perpetrators can't hide behind their own fig leaves of sovereignty.
At that point she may well be subjected to charges of many kinds, but the Federation cannot hold Sela accountable for acts committed against subjects of the Star Empire, up to and including the destruction of her own homeworld.
Actually I'd charge the Iconians with that.
The 'murder of the Preservers' was indeed a heinous act. It was an act of war intended to eliminate a potential base of support for the enemy.
Utter nonsense, if that was their defense at a war crimes tribunal they'd be laughed out of court (and into the gallows). They shot a librarian and bombed a library.
It was the equivalent of bombing a weapons testing laboratory
We already know from past content that the Preservers had no weapons.
Sela and the Iconians are indeed monsters. So far I have seen no evidence they are war criminals subject to Federation justice.
Well, stop looking the other way, then.
@Venture-1. @Venture from City of Heroes if you remember that. Yes, that Venture. Yes, I probably trashed your MA arc. You'll have to be specific; for me it was Tuesday.
Huh? In TNG as shown on TV in actual Star Trek continuity the Klingon High Council lied to the Klingon populace in general (see TNG's "Sins of the Father") to "hold the Empire together" - then K'mpek was assassinated via slow poison (see TNG's "Reunion") and names an outsider as arbiter of succession because no Klingon can be trusted; and finally, there's a short but violent Klingon civil war (see TNG's "Redemption I" and "Redemption II"); where Gauron in the end, assumes leadership of the High Council and starts re-writing Klingon history to make it appear he rose to power, and defeated House Duras and exposed the Romulan plot all by himself (as referenced by Worf in TNG's "Unification I").
So tell us again how Klingons won't lie and use "Honor" as a smoke screen (a tactic the Federation has seen used by the Klingon Empire again and again.) There's even more examples from the Deep Space Nine TV series, but I think the point has been made.
No it hasn't. Worf put Martok in power specifically in order to stop all that TRIBBLE. Remember the speech that Ezri gave him?
And J'mpok killed Martok, under suspicious circumstances I might add.
Until you can provide evidence that the duel wasnt legit. Its just hearsay and doesnt actually add to the discussion at all.
At the end of the day, if youre going to ally yourself with someone/group. You better be ready to have their backs. Otherwise your word is as useless as those 'honor bound Klingons' everyones trying to use to generalize the Klingon people.
The Feds failed to back up their word and arrogantly dismissed the Klingons concerns. Why would the Klingons honor an alliance that the Feds obviously cared very little for...Of course until the Federation was facing something and, then it was a different story.
alright what I'm getting from this thread is klingons are smelly evil barbarians, and now that the iconians have stoped trying to kill us all we should go back to trying to conquer federation, drinking blood wine from the skulls of our ememies and quoting shakespeare in the original klingon... sounds good to me.
oh and maybe we should do something about sela, if nothing else try to figure what were doing something about.
if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
@mrspidey2 : And again you misrepresent events. The Federation Council explicitly DID believe Starfleet's evidence. They just believed the problem could be solved with diplomacy instead of by invading a sovereign state. That's Councilor Sokketh's words, paraphrased, and no, he had not been replaced yet.
Guess what happens in "Mindscape"? We go in and kill all the—oh, no, wait, WE SOLVE THE UNDINE PROBLEM WITH DIPLOMACY!
All the Klingons' warmongering did was drag things out and weaken the quadrant for when the other shoe dropped. The Iconians played them like a harp, just like the Founders.
I wonder, is there a mission that was once in game where Feds actually committed murder and at the command of a Undine? Oh right...Cryptic got rid of that one. Nevermind, only Klingons warmonger and do terrible things.
But lets keep harping on the whole Klingons being Klingons. While the Feds talk up how awesome they are, when they really arent.
And what exactly have the Klingons done to prove themselves trustworthy, when they have a long history of being completely wrong about everything?
They're Klingons. They won't lie to you. It's dishonorable. That's the underlying problem here. The Federation does not understand the Klingon heart.
Sure they do. They lie all the time, including to their allies.
Duras lied to everyone about Mogh's role in the Khitomer Massacre, which was the start of the whole Duras/Mogh interhouse feud.
"The Way of the Warrior": Gowron lied to the Federation about the real reason he stationed a battle group outside DS9. He claimed he wanted to help guard against Dominion invasion but he was just using it as a staging area for the invasion of Cardassia on the false supposition the Cardassian Revolution had been set up by the Founders.* Worf had to get one of Martok's generals drunk to get the real story.
To avoid getting overthrown, Gowron falsely declares victory in the Klingon-Cardassian War after the Cardies manage to stymie his unprovoked invasion despite simultaneously coming under Maquis attack.
See also: any officer of Imperial Klingon Intelligence ever. Lying is kind of a spy's job.
Protip: Your average Klingon off the street has about as much actual honor and integrity (explicitly part of quv, per The Klingon Dictionary) as a meth dealer who's had too much to drink. I vividly recall in "Apocalypse Rising" a mighty Klingon warrior bragging about how he had deliberately killed a Benzite Starfleet captain in one of the most painful manners possible: by ripping off her breathing apparatus so she'd suffocate. Explain to me how that kind of behavior is honorable by any standard.
* By the way, this is the reason the Federation didn't believe them about the Undine. The Klingons got completely played by shapeshifters once before, rolling out the red carpet for the Founders by breaking the strongest power bloc of the Alpha Quadrant (the Khitomer Accords alliance) and TRIBBLE Cardassia's first attempt at democracy in the bargain and driving them right into the Dominion's arms.
Now guess what happened with the Gorn. Oh, that's right, a shapeshifter-directed ship provoked the Klingons to attack the Gorn, resulting in a couple decades of on-and-off feuding and a breakdown in Fed-Klingon relations that ultimately resulted in the Klingons breaking the alliance and invading the Undines' fall guy, and then picking an unnecessary fight with the Federation that only weakened both sides for the eventual invasion in "Surface Tension". They got played by the shapeshifters. AGAIN!
Couldn't have summed it up better!
Now, if we get another Gorkon-like figure who can actually make a difference in the Klingon Empire (and I suspect one does come by the 26th century for them to have joined the Federation), I'd be willing to back such a visionary and their supporters, and give them the respect due. But until I see that, then I don't have respect for the Klingons.
There is a part of me that wonders if Kagran might well have been humbled enough by his experience on Iconia to either be that person someday, OR be someone who influences the eventual visionary in another generation. But that's the future. What starswordc details here is the present as dictated by STO canon as well as by TNG and DS9. (Which makes it the fault of the post-TOS writers, unfortunately.)
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its the next episode, you are brought in as the unwilling lawyer for her defense. the accolade for keeping a straight face as she is arraigned for 23 billion counts of accessory to murder should be great, but the title of miracle worker and the johnny cochran doff if you win her case would be priceless
Quite a few people seem to be forgetting that our characters were ordered to go back in time and do exactly what Sela did in the episode. None of this would have happened in the first place if allied command hadn't decided that the solution to the Iconian crisis was to genocide every last Iconian.
Sela's done a lot of things she could be put on trial for, but if we included gunning down a few Iconians, we'd also have to throw all the military leaders of the KDF, Starfleet and Republic Militia into prison too.
War crimes have no jurisdiction. This is obviously necessary, since any war crime would always be legal in the view of the perpetrator.
And compared to the destruction of an entire civilization with evidence on the time protected data core, that they know of, makes everything her side did pale in comparison.
Yes because there's no way that Jimmy Pok would lie about that would he..
Would he need to?
Also, honourable? Honourable leaders do not stab long standing allies in the back then declare war on them simply because they criticise their actions.
They didn't backstab anyone. They made pretty clear from the get go what they were going to do. It's the Feds who backstabbed them by, once again, not honoring the alliance when push came to shove.
Honourable leaders do not use suspicions of enemy infiltration into a foreign power to declare lebensraum on that foreign power and march their jack booted goons into their capital.
First off all, those weren't suspicions. Ja'rod had proof, either from interrogating the Undine that had attacked him, or collected during his investigation into the matter following the attack.
Secondly, it wasn't about lebensraum and that is evidenced by the fact that the Klingons left Gornar after they were done. They spared the civilians, lifted martial law, left the government intact and only had Slathis swear fealty to them. If they went in for lebensraum, as you claim, they certainly didn't get any. Gornar is still a sovereign state within its borders.
War crimes have no jurisdiction. This is obviously necessary, since any war crime would always be legal in the view of the perpetrator.
And compared to the destruction of an entire civilization with evidence on the time protected data core, that they know of, makes everything her side did pale in comparison.
Interesting moral relativism though.
Swiping from Wikipedia (just to be honest), actus reus non facit reum nisi mens sit rea. "The act is not culpable unless the mind is guilty." There was no intent to wipe out a civilization, even the Iconian one. What happened was an accident. If there were a court in which the Tuterians could plead their case, they would have an excellent one for "civil liability", or reparations as I believe they're called on the national level. But there's no crime here. Bad outcomes do not imply criminal culpability, or even malpractice.
As for some other points above, without quoting, what Team Hail Mary was under orders to do in the past was predicated on the assumption that the Iconians of 200,000 years ago were equivalent to the Iconians of the present day. The fact that this was not true was why you didn't do it: it would have been wrong. If a Klingon could see that shooting people wasn't the answer....
@Venture-1. @Venture from City of Heroes if you remember that. Yes, that Venture. Yes, I probably trashed your MA arc. You'll have to be specific; for me it was Tuesday.
So, if Sela as head of the Romulan Star Empire, attacked and destroyed Vulcan, it is certain that non-military persons were killed, but ordering her military to eliminate a strategic target is not a crime.
Except Vulcan wasn't a strategic target, there being no declared state of war, and the purpose of her attack wasn't to achieve any discernible military objective but to obliterate the Vulcan people. Genocide, or attempted genocide, is a war crime.
You could argue that the Vulcans were trying to takeover the Romulan Empire through non-violent means. In essence, they were subvertly attacking their society. But to be fair, you'd expect a far more subtle response from a Romulan.
That's actually a claim made by humans in today's world, when you hear that the 'Western Way Of Life" is infecting and corrupting one country or another's society and destroying their culture, necessitating their people to fight back in any and every way possible.
Martok always took great pride in displaying his prowess in front of his people, and never hid anything.
For him to suddenly want a clandestine closed doors duel with only Jimmy Pok and B'vat, Destroyer of Worlds as the only witnesses is ridiculously out of character and highly suspicious.
They didn't backstab anyone. They made pretty clear from the get go what they were going to do. It's the Feds who backstabbed them by, once again, not honoring the alliance when push came to shove.
By not honouring an act of aggression you mean?
When has the Federation ever approved of starting wars? Jimmy Pok is not only dishonourable, but a tone deaf idiot if he expected otherwise.
First off all, those weren't suspicions. Ja'rod had proof, either from interrogating the Undine that had attacked him, or collected during his investigation into the matter following the attack.
Which does not in any way justify a war on that scale.
Secondly, it wasn't about lebensraum and that is evidenced by the fact that the Klingons left Gornar after they were done. They spared the civilians, lifted martial law, left the government intact and only had Slathis swear fealty to them. If they went in for lebensraum, as you claim, they certainly didn't get any. Gornar is still a sovereign state within its borders.
No it isn't. It's a puppet state and part of the Klingon Empire. It's people are subject to imperial rule and it's ships property of the KDF.
You're completely flying in the face of canon now if you claim even for a moment that the Gorn retain true sovereignity.
Well if I've learned nothing else, it's that the factions will never be one. This started as a conversation about why Sela was not being charged, and has ended up as a fight between the KDF and Federation.
Show me a single example of a War Crime committed by Sela or the Iconians. Then we can have a trial. Perhaps the Iconians have a case against Sela for her actions in the past, but that is a matter for the Iconians, not the Federation, to judge.
Iconians got from the top of my head: Genocide of the Preservers, Specifically taking Non-Combatant deaths as granted in their "ravaging of thousands of worlds", they certainly did not stop after military bases, I mean New Romulus as a whole was burning.
Genocide would certainly be considered a war crime if the Iconians were ever brought to trial, if it could be demonstrated that their acts were intended to eradicate a species, race, or culture. I would propose in defense of this charge that the Iconians were engaged in war and the targets were not eliminated because of a policy intended to eliminate a race, culture, or tribe, but because they were military objectives of the Iconians. It is not a war crime to eliminate the enemy's support bases.
Many posters are treating acts of war as if they were crimes. An act of war is not subject to criminal justice, and the Nuremburg Trials so often quoted had nothing to do with punishing people for acts of war, (of which the victors were as guilty as the vanquished.)
You're on crack.
Exactly what is wrong with the statement I made, other than it somehow offends you? My statement is factually correct. In fact, if acts of war were criminal, every soldier ever would be liable to trial for war crimes. Even soldiers fighting on the side of oppressors in unjust wars are protected from being charged with war crimes for having been a combatant in a war. More importantly, soldiers fighting a just war on the side of liberators would be equally at risk.
So, if Sela as head of the Romulan Star Empire, attacked and destroyed Vulcan, it is certain that non-military persons were killed, but ordering her military to eliminate a strategic target is not a crime.
Except Vulcan wasn't a strategic target, there being no declared state of war, and the purpose of her attack wasn't to achieve any discernible military objective but to obliterate the Vulcan people. Genocide, or attempted genocide, is a war crime.
The planet Vulcan was a military target because the reigning government of that world was engaged in acts of subversion and disaffection with the lawful government of the Romulan Star Empire. This is cause for war in and of itself. The facts that it was a weak premise upon which to base a war, and that Sela planned a sneak attack as the opening for this war are not really relevant. As for her objective to obliterate the Vulcan people, I would argue her purpose was to eliminate Vulcan as a threat to her Empire, and that destroying Vulcan would not eliminate the Vulcan race, which occupies several worlds and is dispersed among the many Federation worlds, starships, and stations.
So far, I have not seen a single example of Sela committing any war crimes in any jurisdiction of the Federation.
War crimes have no jurisdiction. This is obviously necessary, since any war crime would always be legal in the view of the perpetrator.
You are correct. I should have said, "Show me an example of Sela committing any crime in any jurisdiction of the Federation.
And before you do, please consider that any crimes against her own people are the acts of a sovereign, unless her own people undertake to charge her for the crimes. (As a sovereign, any crimes she committed against her subjects would be crimes against herself, and one cannot commit crimes against oneself.)
Show me a single example of a War Crime committed by Sela or the Iconians.
Are you putting me on? Practically everything either party did in the storyline is a war crime. The destruction of Romulus was a war crime. Everything the Elachi did, under Sela's regime, was a war crime. The murder of the Preservers was a war crime. Sela's regime was responsible for the routine torture and murder of non-combatants, all war crimes. The entire Iconian War was a war crime as the Iconians had no casus belli. By any reasonable assessment Sela and the Iconians (#Failed90sBandNames) are monsters.
Add to that list Sela making a deal with the Hirogen that they can hunt her own people in exchange for helping prop up her rule. The Tal Shiar repeated this one later but it was her idea.
A reigning monarch cannot be held accountable for her actions against her own people by the Federation. As Empress, Sela is entitled to oppress her own subjects until her subjects replace her. At that point she may well be subjected to charges of many kinds, but the Federation cannot hold Sela accountable for acts committed against subjects of the Star Empire, up to and including the destruction of her own homeworld.
It is arguable that the Elachi were under her command, but even so, again we have a reigning monarch and either subject people or rebellious subject people. Since the Empress gets to decide what acts are lawful under her rule, it is highly unlikely Sela was able to break any Romulan laws even if she ordered the Elachi to take prisoners and lead the raids herself. After the fact, her subjects may have other ideas on the matter, but it is not a matter in which the Federation has any standing whatsoever.
The 'murder of the Preservers' was indeed a heinous act. It was an act of war intended to eliminate a potential base of support for the enemy. It was the equivalent of bombing a weapons testing laboratory and, indeed, at the moment of the Iconian attack the Preservers were involved in delivering intelligence harmful to the Iconians to the enemies of the Iconians. We do not know if their intent was to murder all preservers before hand; we only know that the location of the preservers was found in our databanks, and the actions of the preservers at the time of their 'murder' were potentially detrimental to the Iconians.
Sela and the Iconians are indeed monsters. So far I have seen no evidence they are war criminals subject to Federation justice.
Regarding the Preservers:
How did anyone get that as genocide? I don't think that was THE Preserver archive. It was A Preserver archive, just coincidentally the only one (of many) that we have unearthed.
Show me a single example of a War Crime committed by Sela or the Iconians. Then we can have a trial. Perhaps the Iconians have a case against Sela for her actions in the past, but that is a matter for the Iconians, not the Federation, to judge.
Iconians got from the top of my head: Genocide of the Preservers, Specifically taking Non-Combatant deaths as granted in their "ravaging of thousands of worlds", they certainly did not stop after military bases, I mean New Romulus as a whole was burning.
Genocide would certainly be considered a war crime if the Iconians were ever brought to trial, if it could be demonstrated that their acts were intended to eradicate a species, race, or culture. I would propose in defense of this charge that the Iconians were engaged in war and the targets were not eliminated because of a policy intended to eliminate a race, culture, or tribe, but because they were military objectives of the Iconians. It is not a war crime to eliminate the enemy's support bases.
Many posters are treating acts of war as if they were crimes. An act of war is not subject to criminal justice, and the Nuremburg Trials so often quoted had nothing to do with punishing people for acts of war, (of which the victors were as guilty as the vanquished.)
You're on crack.
Exactly what is wrong with the statement I made, other than it somehow offends you? My statement is factually correct. In fact, if acts of war were criminal, every soldier ever would be liable to trial for war crimes. Even soldiers fighting on the side of oppressors in unjust wars are protected from being charged with war crimes for having been a combatant in a war. More importantly, soldiers fighting a just war on the side of liberators would be equally at risk.
So, if Sela as head of the Romulan Star Empire, attacked and destroyed Vulcan, it is certain that non-military persons were killed, but ordering her military to eliminate a strategic target is not a crime.
Except Vulcan wasn't a strategic target, there being no declared state of war, and the purpose of her attack wasn't to achieve any discernible military objective but to obliterate the Vulcan people. Genocide, or attempted genocide, is a war crime.
The planet Vulcan was a military target because the reigning government of that world was engaged in acts of subversion and disaffection with the lawful government of the Romulan Star Empire. This is cause for war in and of itself. The facts that it was a weak premise upon which to base a war, and that Sela planned a sneak attack as the opening for this war are not really relevant. As for her objective to obliterate the Vulcan people, I would argue her purpose was to eliminate Vulcan as a threat to her Empire, and that destroying Vulcan would not eliminate the Vulcan race, which occupies several worlds and is dispersed among the many Federation worlds, starships, and stations.
So far, I have not seen a single example of Sela committing any war crimes in any jurisdiction of the Federation.
War crimes have no jurisdiction. This is obviously necessary, since any war crime would always be legal in the view of the perpetrator.
You are correct. I should have said, "Show me an example of Sela committing any crime in any jurisdiction of the Federation.
And before you do, please consider that any crimes against her own people are the acts of a sovereign, unless her own people undertake to charge her for the crimes. (As a sovereign, any crimes she committed against her subjects would be crimes against herself, and one cannot commit crimes against oneself.)
Show me a single example of a War Crime committed by Sela or the Iconians.
Are you putting me on? Practically everything either party did in the storyline is a war crime. The destruction of Romulus was a war crime. Everything the Elachi did, under Sela's regime, was a war crime. The murder of the Preservers was a war crime. Sela's regime was responsible for the routine torture and murder of non-combatants, all war crimes. The entire Iconian War was a war crime as the Iconians had no casus belli. By any reasonable assessment Sela and the Iconians (#Failed90sBandNames) are monsters.
Add to that list Sela making a deal with the Hirogen that they can hunt her own people in exchange for helping prop up her rule. The Tal Shiar repeated this one later but it was her idea.
A reigning monarch cannot be held accountable for her actions against her own people by the Federation. As Empress, Sela is entitled to oppress her own subjects until her subjects replace her. At that point she may well be subjected to charges of many kinds, but the Federation cannot hold Sela accountable for acts committed against subjects of the Star Empire, up to and including the destruction of her own homeworld.
It is arguable that the Elachi were under her command, but even so, again we have a reigning monarch and either subject people or rebellious subject people. Since the Empress gets to decide what acts are lawful under her rule, it is highly unlikely Sela was able to break any Romulan laws even if she ordered the Elachi to take prisoners and lead the raids herself. After the fact, her subjects may have other ideas on the matter, but it is not a matter in which the Federation has any standing whatsoever.
The 'murder of the Preservers' was indeed a heinous act. It was an act of war intended to eliminate a potential base of support for the enemy. It was the equivalent of bombing a weapons testing laboratory and, indeed, at the moment of the Iconian attack the Preservers were involved in delivering intelligence harmful to the Iconians to the enemies of the Iconians. We do not know if their intent was to murder all preservers before hand; we only know that the location of the preservers was found in our databanks, and the actions of the preservers at the time of their 'murder' were potentially detrimental to the Iconians.
Sela and the Iconians are indeed monsters. So far I have seen no evidence they are war criminals subject to Federation justice.
Regarding the Preservers:
How did anyone get that as genocide? I don't think that was THE Preserver archive. It was A Preserver archive, just coincidentally the only one (of many) that we have unearthed.
It is an attempt at genocide.
It doesn't stop being genocide as far as the war crime category is concerned just because you failed.
When has the Federation ever approved of starting wars? Jimmy Pok is not only dishonourable, but a tone deaf idiot if he expected otherwise.
And the Federation are tone deaf idiots for expecting a warrior culture to never start any wars. So why ally with them and then complain? It's moronic.
Which does not in any way justify a war on that scale.
It does, for Klingons.
No it isn't. It's a puppet state and part of the Klingon Empire. It's people are subject to imperial rule and it's ships property of the KDF.
And yet, Gorn are treated as imperial citizens just like Klingons. There are no occupation forces on Gornar, the old government is still in place. Still no sign of "lebensraum" there.
When has the Federation ever approved of starting wars? Jimmy Pok is not only dishonourable, but a tone deaf idiot if he expected otherwise.
And the Federation are tone deaf idiots for expecting a warrior culture to never start any wars. So why ally with them and then complain? It's moronic.
That's not a warrior culture, that's a despotic, conqueror culture.
It does, for Klingons.
Then you're basically saying they're rabid dogs who should be everybody's enemy.
And yet, Gorn are treated as imperial citizens just like Klingons. There are no occupation forces on Gornar, the old government is still in place. Still no sign of "lebensraum" there.
Yeah, and the citizens of Crimea voted to be Russian.
What do you think would happen if the Gorn leadership decided to leave the Empire, or not follow it's commands?
It's a rather messy issue I'm sure we can all agree. Well I hope so, if anyone genuinely believes this is all clean cut and purely Sela's fault they are very deluded.
She murdered the Iconians but she was "on orders" from the Alliance, if we agree that she is guilty of murdering the Iconians then we all are going into the slammer with her for allowing her to kill them in the first place by giving her those orders.
What I'm more curious to see is what happens when the public finds out about her responsibility in the destruction of Romulus. The RSE was technically neutral in the Iconian War (obviously the Tal Shiar are in charge at the moment and definitely part of the Iconians, but Sela is still the ruler officially even if she is absent), will they be expecting "justice" from all the heads of the Alliance, including our character?
Ashrod, the player character (and Kagran) did what you are expected to do in the military when given immoral orders: disobeyed them. Kagran stopped Sela from shooting and the player manually held the gate open the whole time to make sure those 12 got through instead of being trapped.
That action, BTW, explains why your character doesn't move to stop Sela...if you watch the cutscene you can see that you are manipulating the gateway the whole time, but since the player character doesn't speak we don't hear him/her call to Kagran for help. (Presumably L'Miren DID hear your anger at Sela and recognized that you were holding the gate open manually, which is why she doesn't consider you a traitor like Sela.) Liability on the Fed and Klingon sides would need to go a minimum of one level up the chain of command.
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Ashrod, the player character (and Kagran) did what you are expected to do in the military when given immoral orders: disobeyed them. Kagran stopped Sela from shooting and the player manually held the gate open the whole time to make sure those 12 got through instead of being trapped.
That action, BTW, explains why your character doesn't move to stop Sela...if you watch the cutscene you can see that you are manipulating the gateway the whole time, but since the player character doesn't speak we don't hear him/her call to Kagran for help. (Presumably L'Miren DID hear your anger at Sela and recognized that you were holding the gate open manually, which is why she doesn't consider you a traitor like Sela.) Liability on the Fed and Klingon sides would need to go a minimum of one level up the chain of command.
Doesn't change the fact that those who gave the orders in the first place would be just as culpable as those who carried them out. If Sela is going to be held accountable for the deaths of those three Iconians, then the Entire KDF, Starfleet, and Romulan militia command should be thrown in prison as well.
Also, your character can be in cahoots with Sela (agree with everything she says). In which case your character is also guilty of going along with the plan (just incompetent). And Kagran is the one who put forward the idea anyways, so despite his attempts to weasel out of it at the last minute, this is all his mess.
Comments
Huh? In TNG as shown on TV in actual Star Trek continuity the Klingon High Council lied to the Klingon populace in general (see TNG's "Sins of the Father") to "hold the Empire together" - then K'mpek was assassinated via slow poison (see TNG's "Reunion") and names an outsider as arbiter of succession because no Klingon can be trusted; and finally, there's a short but violent Klingon civil war (see TNG's "Redemption I" and "Redemption II"); where Gauron in the end, assumes leadership of the High Council and starts re-writing Klingon history to make it appear he rose to power, and defeated House Duras and exposed the Romulan plot all by himself (as referenced by Worf in TNG's "Unification I").
So tell us again how Klingons won't lie and use "Honor" as a smoke screen (a tactic the Federation has seen used by the Klingon Empire again and again.) There's even more examples from the Deep Space Nine TV series, but I think the point has been made.
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
But Worf himself was complicit in "all that TRIBBLE" (as you put it) in the first place. Go watch the episodes mentioned. "Klingon Honor" even to Klingons has only been used to obscure their true motives and is more a tool in their political arsenal then a way of life for them.
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
And J'mpok killed Martok, under suspicious circumstances I might add.
Sure they do. They lie all the time, including to their allies.
Protip: Your average Klingon off the street has about as much actual honor and integrity (explicitly part of quv, per The Klingon Dictionary) as a meth dealer who's had too much to drink. I vividly recall in "Apocalypse Rising" a mighty Klingon warrior bragging about how he had deliberately killed a Benzite Starfleet captain in one of the most painful manners possible: by ripping off her breathing apparatus so she'd suffocate. Explain to me how that kind of behavior is honorable by any standard.
* By the way, this is the reason the Federation didn't believe them about the Undine. The Klingons got completely played by shapeshifters once before, rolling out the red carpet for the Founders by breaking the strongest power bloc of the Alpha Quadrant (the Khitomer Accords alliance) and TRIBBLE Cardassia's first attempt at democracy in the bargain and driving them right into the Dominion's arms.
Now guess what happened with the Gorn. Oh, that's right, a shapeshifter-directed ship provoked the Klingons to attack the Gorn, resulting in a couple decades of on-and-off feuding and a breakdown in Fed-Klingon relations that ultimately resulted in the Klingons breaking the alliance and invading the Undines' fall guy, and then picking an unnecessary fight with the Federation that only weakened both sides for the eventual invasion in "Surface Tension". They got played by the shapeshifters. AGAIN!
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
@crypticarmsman He was complicit by playing along so that the Empire remained stable. And that's exactly what Ezri called him on, causing him to take a stand against Gowron.
^^^
Again, that just proves my point as it shows Klingons use their 'honor' in expedient and self serving ways and WILL lie (and do whatever they feel is in their best interest at the moment) to further their own personal goals. THUS, those that know Klingon politics well, know this fact - Klingons are at heart self serving and un-trustworthy. (Remember that Worf ALSO made Kurn hide his true bloodline so one day Worf could restore the Honor of his house - so again, there was more to Worf's actions then just keeping the Empire stable.)
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Yes because there's no way that Jimmy Pok would lie about that would he..
Also, honourable? Honourable leaders do not stab long standing allies in the back then declare war on them simply because they criticise their actions.
Honourable leaders do not use suspicions of enemy infiltration into a foreign power to declare lebensraum on that foreign power and march their jack booted goons into their capital.
Honourable leaders do not attack civilians, sponsor raids on commercial traffic, sneak attack bases and allow criminally insane psychopaths like B'vat to run around looting, pillaging and using weapons of mass destruction.
Jimmy Pok is about as honourable as Vladimir Putin is democratically elected.
They intended to eradicate everyone. The only survivors, if any, would have been Iconian slaves. More likely they'd be turned into Elachi (that process itself being a war crime of incalculable magnitude).
The problem with your statement is that it's completely wrong. You assume your conclusion by declaring everything the Iconians or Sela did as acts of war. They were acts of attempted genocide at worst and at best gross violations of any reasonable rules of engagement.
If only -- we'd be able to attack half the Muslim nations on earth under such a flimsy justification.
It has been made clear in the Trek universe (cf. 2009 movie, e.g.) that the vast majority of most race's population is found on its homeworld, with humanity being perhaps the only significant exception. Cf. the Suliban for an example of a people who have lost their homeworld -- even hundreds of years later in the game's setting they're destitute refugees. Destroying a homeworld is tantamount to attempted genocide. Never mind that, again, under any reasonable rules of war the slaughter of billions of non-combatants can't possibly be justified.
Distinction without a difference.
Yes they can, WE DO IT ALL THE TIME. The TRIBBLE killed their own people and were held accountable for it. Saddam Hussein killed his own people and was held accountable for it. The entire international brou-ha-ha in Syria is over Bashir Assad killing his own people.
No, she can't. Or rather, only within certain broad limits. E.g. women in Saudi Arabia not having the civil rights Americans think they should is an example of a repressive policy that does not provide casus belli. Nerve gassing dissident civilian populations does. This is going back to the whole "universal jurisdiction" thing. Crimes against sentience (since this is SF) remain such no matter who commits them or where. The perpetrators can't hide behind their own fig leaves of sovereignty.
Actually I'd charge the Iconians with that.
Utter nonsense, if that was their defense at a war crimes tribunal they'd be laughed out of court (and into the gallows). They shot a librarian and bombed a library.
We already know from past content that the Preservers had no weapons.
Well, stop looking the other way, then.
Until you can provide evidence that the duel wasnt legit. Its just hearsay and doesnt actually add to the discussion at all.
At the end of the day, if youre going to ally yourself with someone/group. You better be ready to have their backs. Otherwise your word is as useless as those 'honor bound Klingons' everyones trying to use to generalize the Klingon people.
The Feds failed to back up their word and arrogantly dismissed the Klingons concerns. Why would the Klingons honor an alliance that the Feds obviously cared very little for...Of course until the Federation was facing something and, then it was a different story.
oh and maybe we should do something about sela, if nothing else try to figure what were doing something about.
if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
I wonder, is there a mission that was once in game where Feds actually committed murder and at the command of a Undine? Oh right...Cryptic got rid of that one. Nevermind, only Klingons warmonger and do terrible things.
But lets keep harping on the whole Klingons being Klingons. While the Feds talk up how awesome they are, when they really arent.
Couldn't have summed it up better!
Now, if we get another Gorkon-like figure who can actually make a difference in the Klingon Empire (and I suspect one does come by the 26th century for them to have joined the Federation), I'd be willing to back such a visionary and their supporters, and give them the respect due. But until I see that, then I don't have respect for the Klingons.
There is a part of me that wonders if Kagran might well have been humbled enough by his experience on Iconia to either be that person someday, OR be someone who influences the eventual visionary in another generation. But that's the future. What starswordc details here is the present as dictated by STO canon as well as by TNG and DS9. (Which makes it the fault of the post-TOS writers, unfortunately.)
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Sela's done a lot of things she could be put on trial for, but if we included gunning down a few Iconians, we'd also have to throw all the military leaders of the KDF, Starfleet and Republic Militia into prison too.
And compared to the destruction of an entire civilization with evidence on the time protected data core, that they know of, makes everything her side did pale in comparison.
Interesting moral relativism though.
Secondly, it wasn't about lebensraum and that is evidenced by the fact that the Klingons left Gornar after they were done. They spared the civilians, lifted martial law, left the government intact and only had Slathis swear fealty to them. If they went in for lebensraum, as you claim, they certainly didn't get any. Gornar is still a sovereign state within its borders.
Swiping from Wikipedia (just to be honest), actus reus non facit reum nisi mens sit rea. "The act is not culpable unless the mind is guilty." There was no intent to wipe out a civilization, even the Iconian one. What happened was an accident. If there were a court in which the Tuterians could plead their case, they would have an excellent one for "civil liability", or reparations as I believe they're called on the national level. But there's no crime here. Bad outcomes do not imply criminal culpability, or even malpractice.
As for some other points above, without quoting, what Team Hail Mary was under orders to do in the past was predicated on the assumption that the Iconians of 200,000 years ago were equivalent to the Iconians of the present day. The fact that this was not true was why you didn't do it: it would have been wrong. If a Klingon could see that shooting people wasn't the answer....
That's actually a claim made by humans in today's world, when you hear that the 'Western Way Of Life" is infecting and corrupting one country or another's society and destroying their culture, necessitating their people to fight back in any and every way possible.
Martok always took great pride in displaying his prowess in front of his people, and never hid anything.
For him to suddenly want a clandestine closed doors duel with only Jimmy Pok and B'vat, Destroyer of Worlds as the only witnesses is ridiculously out of character and highly suspicious.
By not honouring an act of aggression you mean?
When has the Federation ever approved of starting wars? Jimmy Pok is not only dishonourable, but a tone deaf idiot if he expected otherwise.
Which does not in any way justify a war on that scale.
No it isn't. It's a puppet state and part of the Klingon Empire. It's people are subject to imperial rule and it's ships property of the KDF.
You're completely flying in the face of canon now if you claim even for a moment that the Gorn retain true sovereignity.
Regarding the Preservers:
How did anyone get that as genocide? I don't think that was THE Preserver archive. It was A Preserver archive, just coincidentally the only one (of many) that we have unearthed.
It is an attempt at genocide.
It doesn't stop being genocide as far as the war crime category is concerned just because you failed.
It does, for Klingons.
And yet, Gorn are treated as imperial citizens just like Klingons. There are no occupation forces on Gornar, the old government is still in place. Still no sign of "lebensraum" there.
That's not a warrior culture, that's a despotic, conqueror culture.
Then you're basically saying they're rabid dogs who should be everybody's enemy.
Yeah, and the citizens of Crimea voted to be Russian.
What do you think would happen if the Gorn leadership decided to leave the Empire, or not follow it's commands?
She murdered the Iconians but she was "on orders" from the Alliance, if we agree that she is guilty of murdering the Iconians then we all are going into the slammer with her for allowing her to kill them in the first place by giving her those orders.
What I'm more curious to see is what happens when the public finds out about her responsibility in the destruction of Romulus. The RSE was technically neutral in the Iconian War (obviously the Tal Shiar are in charge at the moment and definitely part of the Iconians, but Sela is still the ruler officially even if she is absent), will they be expecting "justice" from all the heads of the Alliance, including our character?
That action, BTW, explains why your character doesn't move to stop Sela...if you watch the cutscene you can see that you are manipulating the gateway the whole time, but since the player character doesn't speak we don't hear him/her call to Kagran for help. (Presumably L'Miren DID hear your anger at Sela and recognized that you were holding the gate open manually, which is why she doesn't consider you a traitor like Sela.) Liability on the Fed and Klingon sides would need to go a minimum of one level up the chain of command.
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Doesn't change the fact that those who gave the orders in the first place would be just as culpable as those who carried them out. If Sela is going to be held accountable for the deaths of those three Iconians, then the Entire KDF, Starfleet, and Romulan militia command should be thrown in prison as well.
Also, your character can be in cahoots with Sela (agree with everything she says). In which case your character is also guilty of going along with the plan (just incompetent). And Kagran is the one who put forward the idea anyways, so despite his attempts to weasel out of it at the last minute, this is all his mess.