it looks as though star trek 4 jj universe trek has been cancelled what do you think should happen now another reboot,should it just be left to die or can it be brought back to life what ideas do you guys have
Or take the same setting and just don't tell a story about Spock and Kirk. The Star Trek universe is a big place and there are dozens of places they could set a new movie.
IMO, Chris Pine was the worst Kirk and Kirk was the worst Chris Pine character. He's better elsewhere.
OFFICIALLY there's only been 2 Kirk's: Shatner and Pine. So there really isn't anyone to compare him to other than Shatner if you look at "Canon" only.
IMO, Chris Pine was the worst Kirk and Kirk was the worst Chris Pine character. He's better elsewhere.
OFFICIALLY there's only been 2 Kirk's: Shatner and Pine. So there really isn't anyone to compare him to other than Shatner if you look at "Canon" only.
Doesn't stop him from being the worst. But honestly, the problem lies in the writing of the reboot Kirk, not the actor. New Kirk never really worked, I don't think, the tug-of-war between "Grr, I'm a rebel fresh out of the academy" and "I am a mature and responsible Federation captain" just felt too unbelievable. Old Kirk got away with being a bit meh because it was the 60s and TV narratives were more straightforward, but it just doesn't work anymore.
IMO, Chris Pine was the worst Kirk and Kirk was the worst Chris Pine character. He's better elsewhere.
OFFICIALLY there's only been 2 Kirk's: Shatner and Pine. So there really isn't anyone to compare him to other than Shatner if you look at "Canon" only.
Doesn't stop him from being the worst. But honestly, the problem lies in the writing of the reboot Kirk, not the actor. New Kirk never really worked, I don't think, the tug-of-war between "Grr, I'm a rebel fresh out of the academy" and "I am a mature and responsible Federation captain" just felt too unbelievable. Old Kirk got away with being a bit meh because it was the 60s and TV narratives were more straightforward, but it just doesn't work anymore.
It made no sense why Pine's Kirk received command of the Enterprise right after the Academy just like it makes no sense that our Discovery Starfleet characters received command of their ship right out of the Academy. Kirk is supposed to be the youngest Starfleet captain at the age of 34, but our Discovery Starfleet characters beat his record by about 10 years and about 10 years earlier.
IMO, Chris Pine was the worst Kirk and Kirk was the worst Chris Pine character. He's better elsewhere.
OFFICIALLY there's only been 2 Kirk's: Shatner and Pine. So there really isn't anyone to compare him to other than Shatner if you look at "Canon" only.
Doesn't stop him from being the worst. But honestly, the problem lies in the writing of the reboot Kirk, not the actor. New Kirk never really worked, I don't think, the tug-of-war between "Grr, I'm a rebel fresh out of the academy" and "I am a mature and responsible Federation captain" just felt too unbelievable. Old Kirk got away with being a bit meh because it was the 60s and TV narratives were more straightforward, but it just doesn't work anymore.
It made no sense why Pine's Kirk received command of the Enterprise right after the Academy just like it makes no sense that our Discovery Starfleet characters received command of their ship right out of the Academy. Kirk is supposed to be the youngest Starfleet captain at the age of 34, but our Discovery Starfleet characters beat his record by about 10 years and about 10 years earlier.
JJ Kirk was 34 when he was given command of the Enterprise? I guessed from his behavior (and the fact that he was fresh out of the academy) that he was more like 22.
IMO, Chris Pine was the worst Kirk and Kirk was the worst Chris Pine character. He's better elsewhere.
OFFICIALLY there's only been 2 Kirk's: Shatner and Pine. So there really isn't anyone to compare him to other than Shatner if you look at "Canon" only.
Doesn't stop him from being the worst. But honestly, the problem lies in the writing of the reboot Kirk, not the actor. New Kirk never really worked, I don't think, the tug-of-war between "Grr, I'm a rebel fresh out of the academy" and "I am a mature and responsible Federation captain" just felt too unbelievable. Old Kirk got away with being a bit meh because it was the 60s and TV narratives were more straightforward, but it just doesn't work anymore.
It made no sense why Pine's Kirk received command of the Enterprise right after the Academy just like it makes no sense that our Discovery Starfleet characters received command of their ship right out of the Academy. Kirk is supposed to be the youngest Starfleet captain at the age of 34, but our Discovery Starfleet characters beat his record by about 10 years and about 10 years earlier.
Our 2409 Starfleet characters get command straight out of the Academy and it doesn't make a lick of sense then, either. You don't give a green cadet command of a combatant ship (if you can call a Miranda a combatant ship), even if they pull off what the Fed PC does. You maybe fast-track them, give them to a well-regarded captain to serve a tour or two as a department head and then move them up to first officer early, see how they do with the day-to-day responsibilities of being a senior officer, not just commanding a ship in combat, and then give them a ship.
It's one of the reasons I prefer the old tutorial: it's more open-ended about the PC's background (I made Kanril Eleya prior enlisted with previous decorations for valor under fire).
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
IMO, Chris Pine was the worst Kirk and Kirk was the worst Chris Pine character. He's better elsewhere.
OFFICIALLY there's only been 2 Kirk's: Shatner and Pine. So there really isn't anyone to compare him to other than Shatner if you look at "Canon" only.
Doesn't stop him from being the worst. But honestly, the problem lies in the writing of the reboot Kirk, not the actor. New Kirk never really worked, I don't think, the tug-of-war between "Grr, I'm a rebel fresh out of the academy" and "I am a mature and responsible Federation captain" just felt too unbelievable. Old Kirk got away with being a bit meh because it was the 60s and TV narratives were more straightforward, but it just doesn't work anymore.
It made no sense why Pine's Kirk received command of the Enterprise right after the Academy just like it makes no sense that our Discovery Starfleet characters received command of their ship right out of the Academy. Kirk is supposed to be the youngest Starfleet captain at the age of 34, but our Discovery Starfleet characters beat his record by about 10 years and about 10 years earlier.
JJ Kirk was 34 when he was given command of the Enterprise? I guessed from his behavior (and the fact that he was fresh out of the academy) that he was more like 22.
I was talking about Shatner's Kirk. Got the info from startrek.com. "Kirk's renown began by becoming the youngest captain in Starfleet to date at 34..." Kirk served on the Farragut before he gained command of the Enterprise. Pine's Kirk was 25 when he obtained command of the Enterprise.
IMO, Chris Pine was the worst Kirk and Kirk was the worst Chris Pine character. He's better elsewhere.
OFFICIALLY there's only been 2 Kirk's: Shatner and Pine. So there really isn't anyone to compare him to other than Shatner if you look at "Canon" only.
Doesn't stop him from being the worst. But honestly, the problem lies in the writing of the reboot Kirk, not the actor. New Kirk never really worked, I don't think, the tug-of-war between "Grr, I'm a rebel fresh out of the academy" and "I am a mature and responsible Federation captain" just felt too unbelievable. Old Kirk got away with being a bit meh because it was the 60s and TV narratives were more straightforward, but it just doesn't work anymore.
It made no sense why Pine's Kirk received command of the Enterprise right after the Academy just like it makes no sense that our Discovery Starfleet characters received command of their ship right out of the Academy. Kirk is supposed to be the youngest Starfleet captain at the age of 34, but our Discovery Starfleet characters beat his record by about 10 years and about 10 years earlier.
JJ Kirk was 34 when he was given command of the Enterprise? I guessed from his behavior (and the fact that he was fresh out of the academy) that he was more like 22.
I was talking about Shatner's Kirk. Got the info from startrek.com. "Kirk's renown began by becoming the youngest captain in Starfleet to date at 34..." Kirk served on the Farragut before he gained command of the Enterprise. Pine's Kirk was 25 when he obtained command of the Enterprise.
Oh yeah, I forgot that Disco is supposed to be in the Prime continuity, not the JJ continuity.
IMO, Chris Pine was the worst Kirk and Kirk was the worst Chris Pine character. He's better elsewhere.
OFFICIALLY there's only been 2 Kirk's: Shatner and Pine. So there really isn't anyone to compare him to other than Shatner if you look at "Canon" only.
Doesn't stop him from being the worst. But honestly, the problem lies in the writing of the reboot Kirk, not the actor. New Kirk never really worked, I don't think, the tug-of-war between "Grr, I'm a rebel fresh out of the academy" and "I am a mature and responsible Federation captain" just felt too unbelievable. Old Kirk got away with being a bit meh because it was the 60s and TV narratives were more straightforward, but it just doesn't work anymore.
It made no sense why Pine's Kirk received command of the Enterprise right after the Academy just like it makes no sense that our Discovery Starfleet characters received command of their ship right out of the Academy. Kirk is supposed to be the youngest Starfleet captain at the age of 34, but our Discovery Starfleet characters beat his record by about 10 years and about 10 years earlier.
JJ Kirk was 34 when he was given command of the Enterprise? I guessed from his behavior (and the fact that he was fresh out of the academy) that he was more like 22.
I was talking about Shatner's Kirk. Got the info from startrek.com. "Kirk's renown began by becoming the youngest captain in Starfleet to date at 34..." Kirk served on the Farragut before he gained command of the Enterprise. Pine's Kirk was 25 when he obtained command of the Enterprise.
Oh yeah, I forgot that Disco is supposed to be in the Prime continuity, not the JJ continuity.
No worries. Some people think that Discovery is part of the JJ continuity. Personally, I think that Discovery is a result of all the temporal changes in Enterprise. No Spore Drive or Section 31 in TOS, but Enterprise altered the timeline which resulted in Discovery.
And yet Section 31 exists in DS9, and implies that they've existed for a LONG time in the shadows.
Its possible that the conspirators in ST6 on the Fed side were Section 31. Kinda screams Section 31, even if they are not named in the movie.
The reason Section 31 "didn't exist" in TOS is not because they didn't exist in universe. Out of universe they weren't a thing until DS9 introduced them. Chronologically, Section 31 has existed since Starfleet was founded.
Now... Kirk may not have had any run ins with Section 31 until ST6. And Picard didn't have any run ins with Section 31 either, unless that Admiral in Insurrection had connections in order to get that cloaked Holoship.
And yet Section 31 exists in DS9, and implies that they've existed for a LONG time in the shadows.
Its possible that the conspirators in ST6 on the Fed side were Section 31. Kinda screams Section 31, even if they are not named in the movie.
The reason Section 31 "didn't exist" in TOS is not because they didn't exist in universe. Out of universe they weren't a thing until DS9 introduced them. Chronologically, Section 31 has existed since Starfleet was founded.
Now... Kirk may not have had any run ins with Section 31 until ST6. And Picard didn't have any run ins with Section 31 either, unless that Admiral in Insurrection had connections in order to get that cloaked Holoship.
Personally, I think Section 31 has its origin from First Contact. The original first contact went smoothly without any visit from the Enterprise-E or Borg resulting in an optimistic view of space exploration due to humanity encounters a bunch of good and dull aliens. First contact in First Contact went far worse with a group of aliens bent on destroying humanity resulting in a pragmatic view of space exploration. Since any idealism towards space exploration was destroyed in First Contact, Section 31 was created.
First Contact came out in November 1996 and Inquisition, the first appearance of Section 31, came out in April 1998. Then there is Lily Sloane and Luther Sloan. It might be a coincidence that they have the same initials and pretty much the same last name, but if there was any 21st Century person that was heavily influenced by the Borg invasion, then it would be Lily Sloane. Changing the past changes the present and having a 21st Century Borg Invasion would certainly change the present in some ways like the creation of a top secret Starfleet organization that believes in the end justifies the means.
> @jonsills said: > On the other hand, the person telling us about S31 in DS9 isn't exactly a reliable narrator.
Well, I don't have a problem accepting that claim at face value (because how long it's existed isn't terribly important). I just don't believe him when it comes to the nature, aims, and motives of S31, because those don't match the evidence.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Personally, I think Section 31 has its origin from First Contact. The original first contact went smoothly without any visit from the Enterprise-E or Borg resulting in an optimistic view of space exploration due to humanity encounters a bunch of good and dull aliens. First contact in First Contact went far worse with a group of aliens bent on destroying humanity resulting in a pragmatic view of space exploration. Since any idealism towards space exploration was destroyed in First Contact, Section 31 was created.
First Contact came out in November 1996 and Inquisition, the first appearance of Section 31, came out in April 1998. Then there is Lily Sloane and Luther Sloan. It might be a coincidence that they have the same initials and pretty much the same last name, but if there was any 21st Century person that was heavily influenced by the Borg invasion, then it would be Lily Sloane. Changing the past changes the present and having a 21st Century Borg Invasion would certainly change the present in some ways like the creation of a top secret Starfleet organization that believes in the end justifies the means.
EXCEPT... that if we look at more than just First Contact... we basically see a predestination thing going on.
TNG: First Contact with the Borg. Potential evidence that they had already been on their way.
First Contact: Sphere destroyed in the past.
Enterprise: Sphere discovered and studied by Starfleet, Research Team assimilated, NX-01 intercepts and destroys ship. Borg send message to Delta Quadrant predicted to arrive in the 24th Century.
Return to TNG part.
There are really only two instances where history was not put back on track.
Tasha Yar's alt timeline counterpart coming back with Ent-C, thus we have Sela.
Formation of the Kelvin Timeline.
I personally feel that Cochrane and Sloane honored Picard's request to keep the events secret, thus preserving the timeline. In Enterprise, Archer actually said that for almost every instance of Cochrane telling about the events of First Contact... it was told as if there was no threat. But one time... just once... he may have mentioned the actual events. Probably after one too many drinks. And Archer remembered that while Enterprise was chasing the assimilated ship.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Personally, I think Section 31 has its origin from First Contact. The original first contact went smoothly without any visit from the Enterprise-E or Borg resulting in an optimistic view of space exploration due to humanity encounters a bunch of good and dull aliens. First contact in First Contact went far worse with a group of aliens bent on destroying humanity resulting in a pragmatic view of space exploration. Since any idealism towards space exploration was destroyed in First Contact, Section 31 was created.
First Contact came out in November 1996 and Inquisition, the first appearance of Section 31, came out in April 1998. Then there is Lily Sloane and Luther Sloan. It might be a coincidence that they have the same initials and pretty much the same last name, but if there was any 21st Century person that was heavily influenced by the Borg invasion, then it would be Lily Sloane. Changing the past changes the present and having a 21st Century Borg Invasion would certainly change the present in some ways like the creation of a top secret Starfleet organization that believes in the end justifies the means.
EXCEPT... that if we look at more than just First Contact... we basically see a predestination thing going on.
TNG: First Contact with the Borg. Potential evidence that they had already been on their way.
Except that we had the Hansens assimilated by the Borg in 2356 while Q Who which is the first appearance of the Borg happened in 2365. By assimilating the Hansens, the Borg already knew where Earth was in 2356 which gave them plenty of time to attack Earth in 2366. There is no need for a predestination paradox to explain the Borg invasion in 2366.
Yet there would be no way for the Raven to make it to the Delta Quadrant on her own pre-assimilation. And why would the Borg be anywhere near the Alpha Quadrant unless they had gotten the transmission from the 22nd Century with the coordinates for Earth?
Yet there would be no way for the Raven to make it to the Delta Quadrant on her own pre-assimilation. And why would the Borg be anywhere near the Alpha Quadrant unless they had gotten the transmission from the 22nd Century with the coordinates for Earth?
Why would they not be there? How do you think did they find Species 8472, because they received a message from the future that they should check out Fluidic Space? No, obviously the Borg explore the universe for interesting targets.
It seems quite plausible that the Borg send out Cubes to find interesting species worthy of assimilation. Why would they not also send some Cubes to other Quadrants? Just like Starfleet sends ships to explore beyond its territory, so do the Borg.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Given all the time travel that happens and all the loose ends they leave behind it is pretty odd that the timeline isn't even more screwed up than it already is.
-TOS numerous time travel episodes where they worked their butts off to try and fix the contamination.
-In Star Trek 4: The One with the Whales Chekhov wound up getting caught by security on an aircraft carrier and left behind a gizmo he had with him. they abducted Dr Gillian Taylor and the whales, scared a fishing boat by decloaking, and Bones gave a woman future kidney medication. All manner of contamination going on there.
-TNG's big one was the creation of Sela, a walking paradox that shouldn't exist. Plus the time they accidentally kidnapped Samuel Clemens and gave him a guided tour of the Enterprise.
-DS9 had the Bell Riots where a historical figure was accidentally killed and Sisko had to take his place and then fake his death. Plus the shenanigans where the Defiant crew participated in TOS episode "The Trouble with Tribbles"
-Voyager had a couple big instances of time travel contamination, with the Maddox incident and Voyager being seen as a UFO over 90s San Francisco. Of course the big one is Janeway deciding to rewrite about 26 years of history because she lost a couple friends on the way home.
-Then there is First Contact which is part of a predestination paradox involving the Borg.
-Enterprise had the Suliban were receiving future tech and genetic alteration, and the Xindi War which was a conflict that was never supposed to happen.
I think it is safe to say that the timeline was, by all rational evidence, already distorted even before Abrams was given the reins of the movies.
Yet there would be no way for the Raven to make it to the Delta Quadrant on her own pre-assimilation. And why would the Borg be anywhere near the Alpha Quadrant unless they had gotten the transmission from the 22nd Century with the coordinates for Earth?
Why would they not be there? How do you think did they find Species 8472, because they received a message from the future that they should check out Fluidic Space? No, obviously the Borg explore the universe for interesting targets.
It seems quite plausible that the Borg send out Cubes to find interesting species worthy of assimilation. Why would they not also send some Cubes to other Quadrants? Just like Starfleet sends ships to explore beyond its territory, so do the Borg.
Then there is Galactic Cluster 3 which is a transmaterial energy plane containing 22 billion omnicordial lifeforms and Galactic Cluster 8 which contains multispectrum particle lifeforms. Galactic Clusters are more likely similar to Fluidic Space rather than what we consider to be Galactic Clusters. The Borg assimilate any species or technology they consider worth assimilating.
The Hansens encountering a Borg scouting party is far more likely than the Borg not attacking Earth for 10 years due to a message from the 21st or 22nd Century. If the Borg received a signal from the 21st or 22nd Century, then their invasion would have happened in the 2350s instead of the 2360s. It makes zero sense why they would assimilate the Hansens and wait 10 years if they are already close to Federation space.
The Hansens were studying the Borg based on the experience of Guinan's people and other races that survived the Borg. If the Borg were in the Delta Quadrant, then there is no way that the Federation would authorize their mission or survivors of the Borg would have reached Federation space. The fact that the Borg didn't attack in the 2350s and there being numerous survivors of the Borg reaching Federation space means that the Borg were near Federation space and had no intention of attacking Earth until after the Hansens were assimilated.
As I recall, the Hansens were caught in a transwarp conduit the Borg used while investigating the mysterious rumors of a new species in Romulan Space. That's how they got to the Delta Quadrant ahead of Voyager.
As I recall, the Hansens were caught in a transwarp conduit the Borg used while investigating the mysterious rumors of a new species in Romulan Space. That's how they got to the Delta Quadrant ahead of Voyager.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
The Hansens were authorized by the Federation Council on Exobiology to investigate the Borg based on rumors that they had cybernetics, but little else was known. The Hansens followed a Borg Cube near Federation space into a Transwarp Conduit and ended up in the Delta Quadrant.
I don't think you should expect rational, cause-and-effect-based timelines from the people who are so in love with the idea of "hey, let's have an alternate universe that's the same as our normal universe, but everybody's evil!"
I don't think you should expect rational, cause-and-effect-based timelines from the people who are so in love with the idea of "hey, let's have an alternate universe that's the same as our normal universe, but everybody's evil!"
Ugh, don't remind me. There is zero rational reason for ISS Discovery to even exist: the whole reason for USS Discovery is to test the spore drive, which takes up a significant portion of its structure, but the Terran Empire was trying to use the spores in a completely different manner.
DSC would've been so much better if somebody would have stabbed Harberts in the hand with a pen when he pitched that story arc.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
I don't think you should expect rational, cause-and-effect-based timelines from the people who are so in love with the idea of "hey, let's have an alternate universe that's the same as our normal universe, but everybody's evil!"
Ugh, don't remind me. There is zero rational reason for ISS Discovery to even exist: the whole reason for USS Discovery is to test the spore drive, which takes up a significant portion of its structure, but the Terran Empire was trying to use the spores in a completely different manner.
DSC would've been so much better if somebody would have stabbed Harberts in the hand with a pen when he pitched that story arc.
There is also no reason why the ISS Enterprise in Enterprise looked exactly like the Enterprise or the I.S.S. Enterprise in TOS looked exactly like the Enterprise. The only one that made sense is the ISS Defiant in DS9 since people from the Mirror Universe stole the plans for the USS Defiant. Also, the name ISS Discovery makes absolutely no sense in the Mirror Universe. The ISS Machiavelli, ISS Manson, ISS Judas, and the ISS Annihilator make far more sense for ship names in the Terran Empire.
I don't think you should expect rational, cause-and-effect-based timelines from the people who are so in love with the idea of "hey, let's have an alternate universe that's the same as our normal universe, but everybody's evil!"
Ugh, don't remind me. There is zero rational reason for ISS Discovery to even exist: the whole reason for USS Discovery is to test the spore drive, which takes up a significant portion of its structure, but the Terran Empire was trying to use the spores in a completely different manner.
DSC would've been so much better if somebody would have stabbed Harberts in the hand with a pen when he pitched that story arc.
There is also no reason why the ISS Enterprise in Enterprise looked exactly like the Enterprise or the I.S.S. Enterprise in TOS looked exactly like the Enterprise. The only one that made sense is the ISS Defiant in DS9 since people from the Mirror Universe stole the plans for the USS Defiant. Also, the name ISS Discovery makes absolutely no sense in the Mirror Universe. The ISS Machiavelli, ISS Manson, ISS Judas, and the ISS Annihilator make far more sense for ship names in the Terran Empire.
That's among the least egregious parts of the Mirror Universe. When peoples' characters are different, they make different decisions. Form different relationships. People live who would have otherwise died, and died who would have otherwise lived. You're not going to get the same people having the same children so you can produce an evil version of James T. Kirk.
A universe where the Federation is evil is plausible. A universe where you have evil versions of the same people as the regular universe after hundreds of years of divergence is ridiculous.
I don't think you should expect rational, cause-and-effect-based timelines from the people who are so in love with the idea of "hey, let's have an alternate universe that's the same as our normal universe, but everybody's evil!"
Ugh, don't remind me. There is zero rational reason for ISS Discovery to even exist: the whole reason for USS Discovery is to test the spore drive, which takes up a significant portion of its structure, but the Terran Empire was trying to use the spores in a completely different manner.
DSC would've been so much better if somebody would have stabbed Harberts in the hand with a pen when he pitched that story arc.
There is also no reason why the ISS Enterprise in Enterprise looked exactly like the Enterprise or the I.S.S. Enterprise in TOS looked exactly like the Enterprise. The only one that made sense is the ISS Defiant in DS9 since people from the Mirror Universe stole the plans for the USS Defiant. Also, the name ISS Discovery makes absolutely no sense in the Mirror Universe. The ISS Machiavelli, ISS Manson, ISS Judas, and the ISS Annihilator make far more sense for ship names in the Terran Empire.
That's among the least egregious parts of the Mirror Universe. When peoples' characters are different, they make different decisions. Form different relationships. People live who would have otherwise died, and died who would have otherwise lived. You're not going to get the same people having the same children so you can produce an evil version of James T. Kirk.
A universe where the Federation is evil is plausible. A universe where you have evil versions of the same people as the regular universe after hundreds of years of divergence is ridiculous.
Completely agree with this. The further away from the point of divergence in parallel universes, the less likely there will be parallel versions of individuals. There might be a Mirror Kirk if the point of divergence happened in the 21st Century, but there is no chance of there being a Mirror Kirk if the point of divergence happened 1000 years ago.
The same applies to time travel, but it depends on the interaction between the time traveler and other people. Bumping into someone could create no noticeable effect or it could set in motion a series of events that completely changes the future. Killing millions of people in the Xindi Incident would cause immense changes to the future and yet we are to believe that most incidents of time travel have everything completely restored to the original timeline. With the amount of time travel in Enterprise, it is completely delusional to believe that all the events in TOS, TNG, DS9, and Voyager haven't changed.
To be fair, if we follow the logic from 'Parallels' that every decision creates a new timeline where a different choice was made (which is a point of divergence in itself), then it stands to reason that there would be at least one alternate reality where events did unfold as they did in the Mirror Universe. If time is infinite, then choices are also infinite, and since choices represent one form of divergence point by which a parallel reality might be formed, we must also conclude that there are infinite parallel realities, following an infinite number of divergences not only from our reality but from their own as well. Law of probability says that there must be at least one reality where events unfolded in any given way.
That doesn't make the MU any better a literary device, but it isn't completely preposterous.
What amazes me is that professional writers thought the MU idea was good. It gives me little hope that Hollywood can create anything but cop-shows based on misapplications of criminal psychology and headlines from the news.
As far as the Kelvin movies go, they were fun action-romps, but I found little exposition of the human condition, of empowerment, or of improvement in our way of thinking of behaving. K1 was a cop-show, K2 was a buddy adventure, and K3 was an action-thrill ride. None of them had a science fiction story at its core, and in none of them did we learn a truth about being better humans.
Thus, my hopes that K4 would be what none of the other K-Treks were, a science fiction movie, were limited. At best there would be technobabble and the odd piece of hardware that made magic happen.
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My character Tsin'xing
OFFICIALLY there's only been 2 Kirk's: Shatner and Pine. So there really isn't anyone to compare him to other than Shatner if you look at "Canon" only.
Doesn't stop him from being the worst. But honestly, the problem lies in the writing of the reboot Kirk, not the actor. New Kirk never really worked, I don't think, the tug-of-war between "Grr, I'm a rebel fresh out of the academy" and "I am a mature and responsible Federation captain" just felt too unbelievable. Old Kirk got away with being a bit meh because it was the 60s and TV narratives were more straightforward, but it just doesn't work anymore.
It made no sense why Pine's Kirk received command of the Enterprise right after the Academy just like it makes no sense that our Discovery Starfleet characters received command of their ship right out of the Academy. Kirk is supposed to be the youngest Starfleet captain at the age of 34, but our Discovery Starfleet characters beat his record by about 10 years and about 10 years earlier.
JJ Kirk was 34 when he was given command of the Enterprise? I guessed from his behavior (and the fact that he was fresh out of the academy) that he was more like 22.
Our 2409 Starfleet characters get command straight out of the Academy and it doesn't make a lick of sense then, either. You don't give a green cadet command of a combatant ship (if you can call a Miranda a combatant ship), even if they pull off what the Fed PC does. You maybe fast-track them, give them to a well-regarded captain to serve a tour or two as a department head and then move them up to first officer early, see how they do with the day-to-day responsibilities of being a senior officer, not just commanding a ship in combat, and then give them a ship.
It's one of the reasons I prefer the old tutorial: it's more open-ended about the PC's background (I made Kanril Eleya prior enlisted with previous decorations for valor under fire).
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
I was talking about Shatner's Kirk. Got the info from startrek.com. "Kirk's renown began by becoming the youngest captain in Starfleet to date at 34..." Kirk served on the Farragut before he gained command of the Enterprise. Pine's Kirk was 25 when he obtained command of the Enterprise.
Oh yeah, I forgot that Disco is supposed to be in the Prime continuity, not the JJ continuity.
No worries. Some people think that Discovery is part of the JJ continuity. Personally, I think that Discovery is a result of all the temporal changes in Enterprise. No Spore Drive or Section 31 in TOS, but Enterprise altered the timeline which resulted in Discovery.
Its possible that the conspirators in ST6 on the Fed side were Section 31. Kinda screams Section 31, even if they are not named in the movie.
The reason Section 31 "didn't exist" in TOS is not because they didn't exist in universe. Out of universe they weren't a thing until DS9 introduced them. Chronologically, Section 31 has existed since Starfleet was founded.
Now... Kirk may not have had any run ins with Section 31 until ST6. And Picard didn't have any run ins with Section 31 either, unless that Admiral in Insurrection had connections in order to get that cloaked Holoship.
Personally, I think Section 31 has its origin from First Contact. The original first contact went smoothly without any visit from the Enterprise-E or Borg resulting in an optimistic view of space exploration due to humanity encounters a bunch of good and dull aliens. First contact in First Contact went far worse with a group of aliens bent on destroying humanity resulting in a pragmatic view of space exploration. Since any idealism towards space exploration was destroyed in First Contact, Section 31 was created.
First Contact came out in November 1996 and Inquisition, the first appearance of Section 31, came out in April 1998. Then there is Lily Sloane and Luther Sloan. It might be a coincidence that they have the same initials and pretty much the same last name, but if there was any 21st Century person that was heavily influenced by the Borg invasion, then it would be Lily Sloane. Changing the past changes the present and having a 21st Century Borg Invasion would certainly change the present in some ways like the creation of a top secret Starfleet organization that believes in the end justifies the means.
> On the other hand, the person telling us about S31 in DS9 isn't exactly a reliable narrator.
Well, I don't have a problem accepting that claim at face value (because how long it's existed isn't terribly important). I just don't believe him when it comes to the nature, aims, and motives of S31, because those don't match the evidence.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
EXCEPT... that if we look at more than just First Contact... we basically see a predestination thing going on.
There are really only two instances where history was not put back on track.
I personally feel that Cochrane and Sloane honored Picard's request to keep the events secret, thus preserving the timeline. In Enterprise, Archer actually said that for almost every instance of Cochrane telling about the events of First Contact... it was told as if there was no threat. But one time... just once... he may have mentioned the actual events. Probably after one too many drinks. And Archer remembered that while Enterprise was chasing the assimilated ship.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Except that we had the Hansens assimilated by the Borg in 2356 while Q Who which is the first appearance of the Borg happened in 2365. By assimilating the Hansens, the Borg already knew where Earth was in 2356 which gave them plenty of time to attack Earth in 2366. There is no need for a predestination paradox to explain the Borg invasion in 2366.
Why would they not be there? How do you think did they find Species 8472, because they received a message from the future that they should check out Fluidic Space? No, obviously the Borg explore the universe for interesting targets.
It seems quite plausible that the Borg send out Cubes to find interesting species worthy of assimilation. Why would they not also send some Cubes to other Quadrants? Just like Starfleet sends ships to explore beyond its territory, so do the Borg.
-TOS numerous time travel episodes where they worked their butts off to try and fix the contamination.
-In Star Trek 4: The One with the Whales Chekhov wound up getting caught by security on an aircraft carrier and left behind a gizmo he had with him. they abducted Dr Gillian Taylor and the whales, scared a fishing boat by decloaking, and Bones gave a woman future kidney medication. All manner of contamination going on there.
-TNG's big one was the creation of Sela, a walking paradox that shouldn't exist. Plus the time they accidentally kidnapped Samuel Clemens and gave him a guided tour of the Enterprise.
-DS9 had the Bell Riots where a historical figure was accidentally killed and Sisko had to take his place and then fake his death. Plus the shenanigans where the Defiant crew participated in TOS episode "The Trouble with Tribbles"
-Voyager had a couple big instances of time travel contamination, with the Maddox incident and Voyager being seen as a UFO over 90s San Francisco. Of course the big one is Janeway deciding to rewrite about 26 years of history because she lost a couple friends on the way home.
-Then there is First Contact which is part of a predestination paradox involving the Borg.
-Enterprise had the Suliban were receiving future tech and genetic alteration, and the Xindi War which was a conflict that was never supposed to happen.
I think it is safe to say that the timeline was, by all rational evidence, already distorted even before Abrams was given the reins of the movies.
Then there is Galactic Cluster 3 which is a transmaterial energy plane containing 22 billion omnicordial lifeforms and Galactic Cluster 8 which contains multispectrum particle lifeforms. Galactic Clusters are more likely similar to Fluidic Space rather than what we consider to be Galactic Clusters. The Borg assimilate any species or technology they consider worth assimilating.
The Hansens encountering a Borg scouting party is far more likely than the Borg not attacking Earth for 10 years due to a message from the 21st or 22nd Century. If the Borg received a signal from the 21st or 22nd Century, then their invasion would have happened in the 2350s instead of the 2360s. It makes zero sense why they would assimilate the Hansens and wait 10 years if they are already close to Federation space.
The Hansens were studying the Borg based on the experience of Guinan's people and other races that survived the Borg. If the Borg were in the Delta Quadrant, then there is no way that the Federation would authorize their mission or survivors of the Borg would have reached Federation space. The fact that the Borg didn't attack in the 2350s and there being numerous survivors of the Borg reaching Federation space means that the Borg were near Federation space and had no intention of attacking Earth until after the Hansens were assimilated.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
The Hansens were authorized by the Federation Council on Exobiology to investigate the Borg based on rumors that they had cybernetics, but little else was known. The Hansens followed a Borg Cube near Federation space into a Transwarp Conduit and ended up in the Delta Quadrant.
Ugh, don't remind me. There is zero rational reason for ISS Discovery to even exist: the whole reason for USS Discovery is to test the spore drive, which takes up a significant portion of its structure, but the Terran Empire was trying to use the spores in a completely different manner.
DSC would've been so much better if somebody would have stabbed Harberts in the hand with a pen when he pitched that story arc.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
There is also no reason why the ISS Enterprise in Enterprise looked exactly like the Enterprise or the I.S.S. Enterprise in TOS looked exactly like the Enterprise. The only one that made sense is the ISS Defiant in DS9 since people from the Mirror Universe stole the plans for the USS Defiant. Also, the name ISS Discovery makes absolutely no sense in the Mirror Universe. The ISS Machiavelli, ISS Manson, ISS Judas, and the ISS Annihilator make far more sense for ship names in the Terran Empire.
That's among the least egregious parts of the Mirror Universe. When peoples' characters are different, they make different decisions. Form different relationships. People live who would have otherwise died, and died who would have otherwise lived. You're not going to get the same people having the same children so you can produce an evil version of James T. Kirk.
A universe where the Federation is evil is plausible. A universe where you have evil versions of the same people as the regular universe after hundreds of years of divergence is ridiculous.
Completely agree with this. The further away from the point of divergence in parallel universes, the less likely there will be parallel versions of individuals. There might be a Mirror Kirk if the point of divergence happened in the 21st Century, but there is no chance of there being a Mirror Kirk if the point of divergence happened 1000 years ago.
The same applies to time travel, but it depends on the interaction between the time traveler and other people. Bumping into someone could create no noticeable effect or it could set in motion a series of events that completely changes the future. Killing millions of people in the Xindi Incident would cause immense changes to the future and yet we are to believe that most incidents of time travel have everything completely restored to the original timeline. With the amount of time travel in Enterprise, it is completely delusional to believe that all the events in TOS, TNG, DS9, and Voyager haven't changed.
That doesn't make the MU any better a literary device, but it isn't completely preposterous.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
As far as the Kelvin movies go, they were fun action-romps, but I found little exposition of the human condition, of empowerment, or of improvement in our way of thinking of behaving. K1 was a cop-show, K2 was a buddy adventure, and K3 was an action-thrill ride. None of them had a science fiction story at its core, and in none of them did we learn a truth about being better humans.
Thus, my hopes that K4 would be what none of the other K-Treks were, a science fiction movie, were limited. At best there would be technobabble and the odd piece of hardware that made magic happen.