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The "Two DC" problem and what to do about it.
adinosii
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,294 Arc User
The developers have made it clear that they are not happy with the current practice of having two DCs in a 5-man party, and they will take steps to stop this.
Right now, two-DC parties are the rule, rather than the exception for ToNG, and somewhat common for mSP as well. Of course, the practice of "stacking" particular classes is not new - in particular not for whatever is the hardest content at any given time.
I remember when CN was the top-end content and people wanted to have 4 CWs in every party. In a way it was for the same reason, or rather, for the same two reasons.
Well, with many DCs tied up in 2-DC groups, you have the issue that they are obviously not available for other content at the same time. Also, with DCs taking two slots it may make it harder for some other classes to get into particular content.) In reality this isn't quite that bad, because the seal cap discourages people from currently running ToNG more than 8 times per week - once the DCs are finished with their ToNG runs, they should be "available" for other content).
So, should this be fixed?
Yes, but ... there is a right way and a wrong way to do that.
The wrong way is to implement/force a change that is perceived as taking something away from the players. For example, they could change things so that certain powers are mutually exclusive, or that buffs are x% less effective if there is a second member of the same class in the group. Without any other changes, this would force people to work longer for the same rewards, with a higher chance of failure.
This would be perceived as yet another nerf, and would be massively unpopular - that is something you really don't want coming right after the upcoming "random queue" fiasco.
No, what you must do is to fix this in a way that is perceived as giving people other equally good options.
I can think of a few approaches:.
Right now, two-DC parties are the rule, rather than the exception for ToNG, and somewhat common for mSP as well. Of course, the practice of "stacking" particular classes is not new - in particular not for whatever is the hardest content at any given time.
I remember when CN was the top-end content and people wanted to have 4 CWs in every party. In a way it was for the same reason, or rather, for the same two reasons.
- First, people want to get through the content quickly. With a top-end group and two DCs you can finish ToNG in less than 30 minutes. With a less geared group (but still two DCs), you can finish it in an hour. With just a single DC, the time will be significantly longer - one to two hours, assuming you manage to finish at all. Why spend an hour or two running something with one DC when you can run it twice in the same time if you have two DCs?
- Second, people want to be fairly certain they can complete the content. If you have low DPS, you will have problems with the first boss in ToNG. If the players have not killed the boss before the huge tempHP pool (of the player taking the middle curse) runs out, the group will most probably wipe. The fight basically requires massive DPS, which basically encourages using multiple buffers (and debuffers)
Well, with many DCs tied up in 2-DC groups, you have the issue that they are obviously not available for other content at the same time. Also, with DCs taking two slots it may make it harder for some other classes to get into particular content.) In reality this isn't quite that bad, because the seal cap discourages people from currently running ToNG more than 8 times per week - once the DCs are finished with their ToNG runs, they should be "available" for other content).
So, should this be fixed?
Yes, but ... there is a right way and a wrong way to do that.
The wrong way is to implement/force a change that is perceived as taking something away from the players. For example, they could change things so that certain powers are mutually exclusive, or that buffs are x% less effective if there is a second member of the same class in the group. Without any other changes, this would force people to work longer for the same rewards, with a higher chance of failure.
This would be perceived as yet another nerf, and would be massively unpopular - that is something you really don't want coming right after the upcoming "random queue" fiasco.
No, what you must do is to fix this in a way that is perceived as giving people other equally good options.
I can think of a few approaches:.
Promote/Encourage "rainbow" parties.
Make it worthwhile for people to use parties of people from 5 different classes. My suggestion would be for a "rainbow bonus", which would be applied to the party in this case - a boost to outgoing damage or something else to compensate for the loss of the second buff/debuff DC.Improve the buffing abilities of other classes
TRs are in particular need of some developer attention right now and you could kill two birds with one stone, by giving them some more buff/debuff abilities - DoTs that make the target to take increased damage from all sources, disorientation that reduces their damage and so on...there are multiple way to justify this. You can also improve the buffs/debuffs of SWs - and even the other classes.Forget the whole 1 Tank, 1 Heal, 3 DPS approach
In reality, that's just not what people really want. You may see it as desirable, due to the fact that DPSers tend to outnumber the support classes, but the way things are, it is much more realistic to aim for- 1 primary DPS (typically GWF)
- 1 primary buffer/debuffer (typically DC)
- 1 primary tank (GF or "tankadin")
- 2 secondary DPS/buffer/tank/healer - basically any class other than the "pure DPS" GWF)
- One DC runs an AC loadout. Uses Holy Fervor and Hastening light as passives, Annointed Army as daily, and possibly Exaltation as encounter
- The other DC runs a DO loadout, Uses Terrifying insight as passive, Hallowed Ground as daily and Prophesy of Doom as encounter.
- One DC uses Forgemaster's Flame, the other Break the Spirit.
- One uses Divine glow, and depending on the needs/strength of the party, they may use Astral Shield and/or Bastion of Health.
Hoping for improvements...
Post edited by adinosii on
13
Comments
A simple solution rather than meddling with powers all the time or forbid to run content the way you want came already from you and it's great. One other solution could be diminishing returns which could be easily raised or lowered if the next mod requires that. But well, who are we kidding, it's the same as with every idea the players bring forward, the boss as pwe just knows better all the time anyway. And that's why on console they will see the rest of then player base dwindle at the end of he year when other mmo's come out.
And that 40 minutes run only took so long, because I, as the DC, made two big mistakes:
1. I used emopwered break the spirit, not knowing it was broken back then.
2. I tried to double daily at bosses 2 and 3, well my DC is built with the goal to do that, but what I should have been doing was spam AA only to reliably protect my party from partial paralysys. Thats most likely the reason thouse 40min included one wipe at Ras Nsi.
If I had not made thouse mistakes, the one DC run would have taken 33minutes or less...
To answer the thread title question: nothing needs to be done about it, because the "problem" isn´t real.
CC and DoT builds have never really as "effective" as dps builds, but that doesn't mean they aren't more fun for some
The quickness and totality with which CC was dealt free immunity in PvP shows the respect for that type of build, so I suspect that's the kind of blunt treatment we should expect for all builds that don't fit the pure dps, tank and healer roles
*sigh*
how boring...
ON a paladin for example they cant stack their aura gifts. ofcourse that would make the same situation as the above so.....
Pre Mod 6, you had to grind through dungeons to get your gear drops. Some people it took longer than others, but effort equaled reward. 10-15 runs and you almost certainly had your full gear set. You actually felt like you accomplished something.
Having to run things 1000 times is not fun. Its a cheap way to extend content and keep people playing (and it works, for a time).
The game needs to return to a more casual level of gameplay. Yes, the top 1% of the people in this game (which I am not, but might be up there a bit), that already have multiple toons filled out in full primal and can run TONG like a treadmill every 20 minutes will argue that the game is casual enough already. The people who are now attempting to solo FBI, 5 man Tiamat, Solo multiple Dragonflight dragons....these are the 1 percenters who will dominate any content you toss at them - even if every mob was an instant 1 shot. Don't build the game for them..it isnt going to work with the resources available.
What do I mean by casual? Say a new mod goes live every 3 months. A top tier hardcore player should be able to fully gear out 5-6 toons in that amount of time, with any of the drops they want. A casual player should be able to just about top out a single character in that amount of time.
/2 cents
And really, you want to Punish people for playing the game the way they want? Really?
In 12.5, if you're building a BiS team, assuming you fillin the usual slots with Tankadin/DO DC/Deeps/GF, there is some basis in bringing along a HR who does good deeps and can keep-up up Longstriders instead of an AC...
What if mages could dispel a magical obstacle or open an enchanted door with a spell?
What if hunter rangers could track a monster or monster through a forest? What if they could set traps prior to combat?
People will look for and find the easiest way to do anything, and then they will do what is easy. There is no way to fix that short of a complete rebuild of humankind, no easy feat.
Now I do not condone doing things the easy cheesey way, I do not feel others should be punished in order for me to enjoy my game. To punish players for playing the game to have fun with their chosen friends is wrong IMOH.
.
D&D was never about always using brute force to survive and thrive on adventures or in dungeons or lairs.
The meta will evolve, it always has and always will. The fix for this really is, look to your guild and alliance. Look at your friends list, or start a group and go to the LFG channel.
That means what we have now is something stronger than they wanted seems they want to reduce numbers like 30m+ intomitables or high ice knifes or high damage general.
But how it would it make sense for some parts of a dungeon to be Random? I don't know. How does it make sense for us to run the same dungeon and kill the same mobs and bosses 500 times? It's an mmorpg, so some things don't always make absolute sense. But that doesn't mean that few things in a pencil & paper rpg can be done in an mmorpg. Actually, I believe most things that can be done in p&p rpgs can now be done in mmorpgs.
A lot of people didn't like persistent dungeons in Everquest and Everquest 2 because they were contested and people couldn't always run them when they wanted to. But instanced dungeons are not the only answer to this problem. Persistent dungeons could be transformed into Dynamic Persistent Dungeons. People could be automatically grouped into parties when more than five or six people are within or enter at the same time. If more than one full party is inside the persistent dungeon, the difficulty could increase. More mobs could spawn, mobs could respawn faster, more mini-bosses could spawn, and it could become possible to get more and better loot from the dungeon. If enough people were within or entered at the same time, the dungeon could transform into a full-scale raid. Persistent Raids could transform into Epic or Legendary or Mythic Raids depending on how many people showed up at once. (Or whatever you want to call them).
Now, as far as implementing class-specific interactions and events in dungeons or wherever, there are a few ways to go about it:
1. Automatic success (kind of boring)
2. Dice roll, percentage chance of success, RNG (Can be annoying if you fail, sure, but it works in P&P games, so it can work just as easily in mmorpgs)
3. Succeeding in the interaction requires successful completion of a mini-game. The player-character could have 1-3 chances or be able to try until he or she succeeds, depending on the situation or particular interaction.
One or all of those methods could be used in different times and at different places.
EDIT: Of course, if a door is not enchanted or otherwise magically sealed, there's no reason a fighter or another character with high strength shouldn't be allowed to try to break down the door (if a rogue is not available). However, this would make a lot of noise and most likely draw the attention of mobs within the lair, dungeon, or raid. In other words, that's probably going to make trouble for the party, as in more battles to fight. Also, why can't there be more than one way to complete a quest depending on which class or classes are doing it? If the quest involves obtaining some valuable item from a mob, why can't a rogue simply sneak in and steal it rather than being forced to kill whoever or whomever is guarding the item? Or why shouldn't a rogue have a chance to pickpocket a key from a sleeping guard in some situations? Why couldn't a wizard cast a sleep spell on the guard or guards instead of being forced to kill them all? And, if the quest was being done with a partner or in a group, couldn't another person or persons distract the guard/s or otherwise lead them away while another person in the party steals the item? There is no reason why most quests need to involve killing or destroying every sentient or non-sentient obstacle in the way.
So AC DC will probably be switched with CW or HR. Problem solved. There will be no more AC / DO DC meta, plus AC people will probably switch to DO.
One would think additional nerfs will not be needed , right ? Unless the new class will be a buffer. In that case DC will probably be scaled* down... so the new class will have an edge.
And yes now it makes sense! make the content interesting and make character classes useful. SO for example if your party is too underpowered to take down a whole room of critters, then why not give a different route to the end point? Let a thief sneak through and release a gas bag or something!
EDIT: Also, spells don't always work in tabletop D&D. Player Characters, Non-Player Characters, and Monsters have something called Saving Throws. In 2nd Edition Advanced Dragons & Dragons they were:
Saving Throw vs
1) Paralyzation, Poison, or Death Magic
2) Rod, Staff, or Wand
3) Petrification or Polymorph
4) Breath Weapon
5) Spell
Saving Throw types and how they work have changed in later editions, but that's how they were when I played.
I don't know if it's too many calculations for personal computers these days, but I don't think it would be in a dungeon with five people. If Saving Throws were used, perhaps Dungeon Bosses wouldn't need to be immune to all control powers. Also, I'm not sure I understand why all Bosses need to be giants. In my opinion, there's nothing wrong with not being able to hit something or aim properly because another player character or npc is in the way. We do have pretty good mobility in this game, so it's not hard to get into a position where we can see and hit the target. Another way to increase to difficulty is to allow for friendly fire. Spells, arrows, and weapons are capable of hitting your own party members in tabletop D&D. Though this should go both ways. Mobs and npcs should be able to hit each other as well.
One more thing. Experience can be gained from any activity it is programmed to be gained from. Killing really only makes a person better at killing. Using combat skills makes someone better at using combat skills. It's only because mmorpgs have largely ignored non-combat and utility skills for so long that some people have the idea that leveling should mainly be accomplished by killing and quests that involve killing. Though, of course, we do have many quests to go gather this or that object. Not sure how that makes us better at anything other than doing what we're told, but I don't design these games. Sure, if you're forced to murder anything that gets in your way, it can help you get better at that, I suppose. But there are a lot of other non-combat skills classes could use in the process of obtaining an item or items. Or in performing any number of tasks that might be required while questing or dungeon delving.
I've played this game pretty consistently since the beginning and ran every dungeon there ever was multiple times with multiple people. As long as there has been dungeons that had loot that people really wanted and a difficulty of it to obtain there have been double DC parties. Back in old CN, before the game was so overpowered that DCs weren't needed there were double DC parties. The fact that double DC parties is a meta right now is what I believe a healthy sign for the game and it's content. People aren't able to cheese their way through it too easily and they want to run it and do so successfully. Once enough people get geared better and are more confident about the content the double DC meta will probably die down. This content is fresh and is often difficult for even experienced parties. The only time in recent memory when Double DCs weren't really thing is when no one needed a DC for anything in mod 5 because they could just kill everything and lifesteal was King and mod 7-8 until the Permabubble nerf in mod 9 because one DC could help the paladin keep the bubble up and no one took any damage anyway.
In an effort to better understand what the devs want in their content and to also help out my friends who often run their alt DCs through TONG yesterday I offered to run solo DC on almost all our runs which I did for around 6-8 hours with a solo tank. The "Tradtional" party that the devs think we should have. There are some gripes I have and I will freely admit that I'm not completely BiS, but I'm a 15.3k IL DC but our runs averaged around 40 mins with a Master of Flame cw or Scourge Warlock, Storm Spell CW and a Great Weapon fighter who wasn't even above 14k. Squishier DPS had more of an issue since I'm not a healer, I'm just a righteous DC that uses some healing spells sometimes like most of the end game DCs.
So Devs- You want me to run solo dc? These are the things that I feel need to be looked at.
-Tomb of the nine gods is the only dungeon that I feel significantly benefits from double dc mostly because of the extra armor pen needed to damage everything and the crazy amount of more than 32 integers worth of health the dungeon has. Solo DCing anything else isn't really too much of an issue. Time will tell how that changes when bondings are adjusted.
Tomb has some really crazy mechanics that seriously inhibit the ability for me to do my job without some frustration. DCs are an extremely active class with many actions per second to buff/debuff and keep up stacks of empowerment in a rotation to have the best effectiveness.
This 'Partial Paralysis' stuff in the Ras'ni fight might need to be toned down. This is literally the only time I had an issue vs a double DC party. I was stunned almost 90% of the fight, trying to do these actions per second being stunned every few seconds is a cheap trick. No matter how good I could do or what I tried I still got partial paralysis and could not get rid of it. If someone reading this has the down low for how to not get partial partial paralysis with a Single DC/Single Tank party please educate me. My buffs and debuffs would fall off and could not be applied. I couldn't heal/buff people, I couldn't res anyone without clicking on their corpse like 10 times. Just call it paralysis if that's what it is because the partial in the name is just trolling me. We had a problem not because I was a solo DC, but because I couldn't really do much of anything so I was like 1/2 a DC. I did though, I finished the fight and kept pushing every button multiple times before it would fire off. We finished the dungeons. With two DCs that might get partial paralysis we have like 1 whole DC.
I never really bothered building for control resist or anything but the primary attribute for a DC is wisdom and that's supposed to affect control resist. Is this working as intended devs? Before you nerf the game and my class please check out why even with 20% control resist I'm not able to anything with partial paralysis. Does Control Resist even do anything in this game?
I'm well aware, I might just be a terrible DC because I end up with partial paralysis and it's my own fault.. but just in case there is a chance that something could be fixed I hope this gets looked at. Anything else doesn't really cause much of an issue, even with the heavy damage that can be taken at the second boss in Tong.
--
I'll never retrace my steps.
Some of my best friends are Imaginary.
Solution two is ok (improve buffing abilities of other classes) but the dev said they want to tone down on the whole buffery so...they might not want to invest in that and have players invest in that if they plan to make these changes in the long run.
And well, I seem to remember the dev said they don´t mean to end the 2 dc meta by either making one path unviable or nerfing both into the ground so that leaves only toning down (not erasing completely) the synergies between them so that each kind of dc is a powerful buff/debuff to any group, but the potential added by a second dc is inferior (if only slightly) to the one that can be added by taking a different class.
To do this elegantly this would require quite some work - would be neat to use the opportunity to set both paths more apart and make both equally fun to play thus creating some actual variety.
But how likely is it? It all seems so random to me...the whole bondings change (even worse at the beginning with 50% uptime) with the heavy nerf and then the snapshot thing every 30s...I have no time (and no inclination) to test this on preview but I would be interested to know how this will work with power-sharing? And why did they do this? Is it a bug or is there some thought behind this? Maybe they have a good plan and it all makes sense somehow?
If there was no thought behind this and it is going to happen anyways DO will be the way to go then for all? At least for the time being...That is kinda sad since I think AC is more fun to play...but on the upside...if I play a more or less full-time DO my toon even at his puny below 14k IL is more or less done - not much incentive to improve further. Have HG up all the time, slot TI, apply (de-)buffs that do not depend on my stats (not much reason to fuss about power for the tiny and nerfed 10% share), the dps addition that could be achieved by gearing up further would not be significant enough in content like tong to make it worthwhile (for me) so...
I could concentrate on grooming my cw...very versatile and seemingly in no immediate danger of getting dev attention.
What bugs me though is that (to me) this all seems so random and chaotic. If they have some positive vision of where they want the game to go I think it would be a good idea to share it with players in a comprehensive way. To quench frustration and whining and wow, even maybe giving cause to some pleasant anticipation:P