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Arena of Sompek and Borg Battle Royale: please disable for lower level players
fleetcaptain5
Member Posts: 5,051 Arc User
I've been playing Arena of Sompek recently, and almost every time there are these players of Lt and Cmdr rank or even lower joining. I don't think this is appropriate, as this mission is harder and more challenging than many of the so-called 'elite' ground missions.
It's very annoying to wait so long for a mission and have it go on cooldown for another half an hour after playing it, without having even a serious chance of getting far.
Just now for example, I was in a team with two low-level players and three level 65-players (myself included).
Of the two other level 65-players, one left after a few rounds because he probably thought it was pointless.
Which it sort of was. After that first departure, one of the low level players kept standing in the centre of the arena without doing anything. This was only after a few rounds.
So we were down to only three remaining players seriously trying to make something out of it. Of those, only two of were remotely able to survive even a single confrontation - though I do respect the other low level guy at least trying to help.
--- Edit: for the record, the suggestion here is to disable the regular AoS and BBR missions for lower level players, not the limited-time event ones. ---
It's very annoying to wait so long for a mission and have it go on cooldown for another half an hour after playing it, without having even a serious chance of getting far.
Just now for example, I was in a team with two low-level players and three level 65-players (myself included).
Of the two other level 65-players, one left after a few rounds because he probably thought it was pointless.
Which it sort of was. After that first departure, one of the low level players kept standing in the centre of the arena without doing anything. This was only after a few rounds.
So we were down to only three remaining players seriously trying to make something out of it. Of those, only two of were remotely able to survive even a single confrontation - though I do respect the other low level guy at least trying to help.
--- Edit: for the record, the suggestion here is to disable the regular AoS and BBR missions for lower level players, not the limited-time event ones. ---
Post edited by rattler2 on
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Low level players simply have no good reason to be in these two missions. Sure, it's probably easy XP for them if you're the only low level player and four others can carry you. But with more than 1 low level player, the team won't be getting very far, generally speaking and it just ruins the experience of those who are prepared for it.
These missions are supposed to be the most challenging, so why are players who only have access to MK IV gear, a few traits, no reputation or fleet gear, no spec trees and only a half filled skill tree allowed here? The game doesn't allow players of level 25 to enter Into the Hive Elite or Battle of Korfez either, for good reasons.
I can't imagine that it's very interesting for them either, I wouldn't be surprised if many of them are entirely new to the game and simply don't know that this is end-game content, since it's marked as normal level content and accessible to them.
Are these queues currently part of normal difficulty randoms ?
I believe they might have originally intended it to end at 7 for the event, since the first Accolade is awarded after finishing round 7, and in some of the promotional material it was listed as 7 rather than 12.
Of course, it is also entirely possible they just copy-pasted from articles (and code) for Sompek before changing it to 12.
I think so. IIRC, I have ended up in one a long time ago through the random system.
For lower level players though, the random system isn't available so that's not how they're ending up in this. They have to queue for it themselves.
Maybe I should've made this more clear, but I wasn't suggesting to lock low level players out of the event missions. I'm concerned with the regular versions of the missions, the ones that are available at this moment.
You do know that even you had to start somewhere... right?
Therein lies the problem. HOW do you gauge who should be in it and who shouldn't? Level alone doesn't mean anything. You can have a lv 65 player with garbage gear go in, and you'd probably bring that up, thus requesting some way to filter out THAT too.
Its a complicated situation really. Either leave it open as is like everything else, or start imposing limitations that could foster elitist attitudes that divide the playerbase and even can cause discrimination because someone "doesn't measure up so public humiliation it is".
There is no real way to address this without opening other cans of worms. So as things stand the only thing I can think of is for us Veteran players to help those less experienced. Just have to hope that those less experienced would actually be willing to listen.
There are plenty of other missions that lower level players can play without it becoming near impossible for a team to get anywhere. Many players can carry a team in Fleet Alert or Azure Nebula, so there is less of a problem there. And missions like Azure Nebula finish automatically anyway, even if no player capable of carrying the team is present. Low level players can keep queuing for that, as it is actual normal difficulty content.
AoS and BBR are different in that regard, these missions are supposed to be among the most challenging and were actively advertised as such. The entire goal here is to get as far as possible, to last as long as possible.
They may have that 'normal' difficulty in the PvE screen, but the content itself was never meant to be considered normal difficulty. Low-level players thus have no good reason to be there; like I said, it's basically the same as not allowing lower level players in advanced or elite content.
Yes, level-65 players may have bad gear too. But they at least have all trait slots unlocked, can use spec trees and will probably have collected more than one or two kit module(s). You'd have to actively handicap yourself to be as badly prepared as a level-25 captain, who simply doesn't even have the option to be well prepared for this content.
So either you're sidestepping or just suggesting an outright lockout until you're max level. But that still opens the can of worms on what other criteria "should be considered" before allowing people to run those queues. Also you kinda forgot Kobayashi Maru, since it is similar.
But still... what qualifies as being ready? Being level 65 alone or having a certain level of gear? Do they also need to have the extra trait slots from fleet holdings for Optimal Performance? Do they need to be an Elite Captain for the extra Kit slot?
Its a slippery slope. Once you start setting down requirements and conditions... it won't take long for others to pile on for "the most ideal" setup that "must be in place." You know... how long before we start going "you need to be this tall to ride".
Honestly its probably going to work itself out. If you queue up by yourself you kinda accept that you may get a less than ideal team. For the most part I think anyone who wants to make a serious go at it will probably try and make a full premade team, just like with Sompek and Maru.
This makes sense to me.
I agree that this sort of training for newer players can be important.
After all the emotion earlier in this thread I find your reasoning refreshing.
I'm still unsure if I would have wanted to have been thrown into this TFO as a starting player though. The event version with it's more limited number of rounds might have been enough for me.
This is going to be subjective, but I've never thought of these missions as training scenario's for players that aren't familiar with high level content yet.
And honestly, things like Azure Nebula or Fleet Alert, or the Borg space missions are usually challenging enough for newer players with a half-equipped ship that's generally a collection of randomly collected stuff, until many more options open up after level 50.
I didn't address the other things you mentioned because I didn't open that 'can of worms'. Nor am I trying to open it. I believe my proposed solution is straightforward - none of the other things you are mentioning are being suggested here.
As for the premade vs. PUGs - you'd be surprised how far a random team can get. I've only played this mission once with a pre-made team and that must be years ago now. All the other times were PUGs.
Yesterday we made it to round 109 with a random team in BBR, and somewhere around round 97 in Sompek with yet another random team.
The main difference? There were no lower level players present in either teams.
Had those been there, I seriously doubt it would have been an enjoyable experience for them either. As even high-end players tend to get killed rather easily at some point. A lower level player doesn't stand a chance when the mission gets serious. In the teams where they are present, they generally have to be revived every round, already even in the lower rounds.
What if they're lv 65 but refuse to remodulate their energy weapons? What if you get a lv 65 troll who decides not to contribute anything meaningful anyways and just run around with a party popper?
Just about no matter what, you will have the possibility of a less than ideal team when you queue by yourself. And lets not forget that its probably also in the pool for Random as well, so not only are people queueing up for it specifically, but some may in fact just be hitting the Random button, including lower level or less geared players.
You're pushing for experienced veterans only in these queues. Experienced by whose definition? By what measuring stick are you judging who is worthy of being in those queues?
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it's the thinking in this thread that made WoW raids so toxic the years I played.
the same thinking that Anne ran into when someone told her to stop play HIS game along with the git gud comments
I'm not pushing for all these things that you are mentioning. That is on you.
I don't know anything about WoW, nor do I have any idea who Anne is.
But if you believe it's elitist to have end-game content locked behind, you know, being of end-game level, then I suppose the game (almost every game) needs to be overhauled.
As noted, a lot of other content is already locked behind a level requirement. And it makes perfect sense to do so. You won't find level-25 players in Battle of Korfez (or even Tzenkethi Front at normal level), because apparently the Devs thought that those players won't be able to make a serious contribution there.
Which is a correct assessment, of course, because their ships will get blown to pieces within the first three seconds of engagement. I suppose the Devs are elitists too then?
Feel free to agree or disagree with my idea and keep discussing it if you want.
But I think I've made my reasoning for this simple and straightforward proposal clear. I don't really see the point of endlessly turning in circles or defending it against slippery-slope fallacies - or worse, wild accusations that aren't even accompanied by an actual argument.
I'll be happy to respond if new, valid criticisms pop up.
I'm not pushing iteither. It is a legit concern. One thing can lead to another, which snowballs into another. And the reasoning behind asking for it could go either way as well.
Korfez was SPECIFICALLY STATED by the Devs to be meant to challenge Veterans from the get go, and only has one difficulty level, Elite. And ended up breaking more than once. So comparing Korfez to something that was part of an event and open to all is rather unfair. The TFOs you brought up... were not stated to be Elite Only challenges for veteran players.
Now, if people who are unsure of what they're doing really are ruining your experience so badly (and honestly, I can sympathize; been on more than one Open Mission in FO76 that's wiped because some guy with a level in the early hundreds doesn't want to wait out the timer so more people can join, one of the most basic mistakes one can make there), all I can recommend is getting a premade group together, rather than PUGging it out. Then you're with people of your level, whose competency you probably know, and everyone has a better time.
So by using the term "git gud" do you mean gain experience and practice ? That pretty simple. There are hundreds of hours of missions and other TFO's that new players can play and enjoy to gain experience before queuing up for a "death match".
The strategies are always the same, but the challenges are presented in a more relaxed fashion in order to acclimatize newer players without overwhelming them.
Having both versions avialable would also confuse many players. You'd end up mixing up which one was which.
They don't do that because they would have to repeatedly reprogram the standard versions when it starts and when it finishes. Having the Event versions means they don't have to waste time and resources and cause potential bugs each time they reprogram.
And what happened to 'help thy neighbour'? The Event versions give lower level players the chance to take part and learn TFO's they will come across later. Just help carry them through it instead of complaining that they are hindering you for a five minute TFO. Event TFO's don't fail.
What's next? Demanding they only equip certain equipment, traits and stats before you'll play with them!? Players that want to learn will do so, but you have to give them the chance, not back-hand, gaslight and gatekeep them the moment you see them.
First up, event version is fine the way it is and is meant for anyone to be able to join and play. That one needs to stay where it is. Generally there is also a distinction between event and non-event such as the event version only going a specific amount of rounds. So that handles part of the distinction between the two.
For non-event versions, normal mode should absolutely be level locked to max level. It's not the end of the world if someone can't play a specific TFO the moment they join the game. Level locking it to 65 gives people time to learn at least the basics of the game and how to put a basic cohesive build together from the free gear you get from Episode Rewards. Such as if you want Polaron you can get the Morphogenic set, Chronometric Polaron set, free polaron stuff from the Gamma Arc, and so on. Are those free versions going to make you a chart topper, no. However you can clear 95% of the content in this game, including quite a few elites, with basic knowledge and basic cohesive build. It won't be fast, and it may not be easy, but you can at least say you've cleared the content.
Where I absolutely believe there needs to be some kind of check/test is accessing advanced and especially elite modes. Advanced I would make sure that everything on a ship is at least mk xii blue and they're doing at least 4k just to have numbers to quantify for space. Basic FAW build can sneeze 4k with the free gear you get. I don't care about advanced modes being restricted as much as I do the elite modes. Folks can call me elitist all they want, but I still maintain that if you don't have a basic cohesive build and can't pull the basic minimums as defined by the TFO itself, you have no business or right to be in that elite TFO because you're guaranteeing an automatic failure to the other 4 people in there. IDK what the actual numbers for Korfez are off the top of my head, but lets say it's 50k. If you're only doing 30k and the other 4 are doing 55k each, sorry but you have no business in that TFO yet and need to come back once you've improved. Elite content is built around people being at a certain level, and if you're not at that level yet, you're not ready for elites and don't need to be in there. Just like I wouldn't let a 5yr old behind the wheel of my car because they're not ready to drive yet, why should people who are not yet ready be anywhere near elites? Answer is they shouldn't.
Now folks may say "but how are they supposed to get ready if they can't get into higher tier content." That my friends is what normal mode is for. Normal mode gives you a taste of what to expect in the TFO with things getting progressively harder as you advance in difficulty. "But how can they get elite marks for gear if they can't get into advanced or elites". You do not need reputation gear to succeed in this game. It helps but is not required. If you want elite marks then craft some basic mk xii blues to get into advanced, or have some friends carry you in private elite runs if you want. But far as public runs go, I see nothing wrong with having a basic set of standards so people aren't failing through no fault of their own because one guy bit off more than he can chew. I want people to be able to do elite content BUT not before they're ready.
To be perfectly blunt, far too many people in this game want elite level rewards but don't want to put in elite levels of effort to get them. As much as I hate to say it, many of those same people also overestimate their own ability and aren't where they think they are, then when they run into road blocks they complain about the game being too hard. When folks offer them help and say "did you do this" or offer to help sort a build, they insist it's the game and not them even though other people have gotten through. As one example of this, I offered to hand someone a coupon and give them a full set of mk xv golds to help them out and go through the build process with them. They liked beams so it would've been a beam setup. Person turned down the offer of assistance yet continued to complain about the game, which tells me they didn't really want help, but wanted to complain. Now folks like that aren't as common as it may sound, however there are still far too many of them when they do crop up. Again I want people to be able to do higher tiers of content, but not before they're ready and at the expense of 4 other people on their team.
"Don't join public TFOs then" they say or "it's elitist to want people locked out of content", both of which are the real gaslights. When pressing the join button for the higher tiers especially, you are by necessity telling the game and prospective teammates you have a basic cohesive build and know what you're doing and can meet the basic requirements of the TFO itself. If you can't that means you lied to the team and I would argue trolled. Second, why is that I'm an elitist if I want a basic set of requirements enforced so everyone can survive and complete the content, but it's somehow not being a leech to expect me or others to carry someone who is not ready to the point I'm told I must consent to carrying people if I want to use a public tool? Amazing how that works with some people. Not every piece of content needs to be built with every single person in mind. Doesn't mean those people are hated, just that they're not the target audience. I'm not a sci person, so when sci heavy ships come out I usually don't bother using them aside from just ticking the box for the collection. Likewise if my sci fleetmate sees a tankier ship that's not got alot of sci, he adopts a similar approach. To close this out, events are fine as they are. Certain non-event TFOs should be level locked to max level, with advanced and elite difficulty, or at least elites, having further criteria to prove one is ready. One person's fun should not come at the expense of 4 other people.
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I think honesty that's at the heart of an majority of complaints regarding queues. Some captains do not think they are deficient and that it is never their fault.
However, sadly on the opposite end, it can also be said that i can understand how some players are scared to ask for help or advice. As some in the community aren't exactly nice people or are far too focused on 'meta' to help someone who may not want to copy and paste some of the more well-known good builds and may want a theme build instead.
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