True, at least three set omnis are needed for some set combinations to avoid polluting the visuals with turret bolts.
Well... we do have one oddball Omni, the Morphogenic Polaron. Its both an Omni Beam and a Turret. Depending on the firing mode you use, it shifts to match. May start out firing bolts, but if you use FAW, it becomes a beam.
For example, according to Gene Coon, who was the one who actually invented the Federation (up until then Roddenberry just used the term "the interstellar community"), it was based on the UN but a little tighter knit, somewhat similar to the very early US system with strong states and a relatively weak central government, which is why they used ambassadors instead of senators and whatnot)
Starfleet and the Federation as a whole wouldn't be fleshed out until the movies and later TNG.
And there's STILL the myth that every starship in TOS had unique assignment patches despite the existence of a document declaring that Starfleet personnel wore the same arrowhead as the Enterprise crew. In a way this was mitigated by the existence of Discovery showing that everyone used the arrowhead before TOS, but then we have outliers like the Mirror Universe episodes of Enterprise, which had a different badge for the Defiant uniforms. Even STO has made up badges for TOS era Starships. The only time we really have absolute confirmed assignment patches is in Enterprise.
So what source are you citing that says every ship used the same badge? Because these two images from the TOS say otherwise.
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I know that it is off-topic, but I have nothing to say about omnis.
Want to make them rear-slot only? Fine. Keep them as they are? Okay. I am not crunching numbers so I don't know how much balance would be impacted.
But there is always the option to add the kinetic cutting beam, so we can have three 360 degree weapons if we want.
The source was from behind the scenes documentation, but Justman wrote a funny memo chewing Theiss out about the insignia blunder with Tracy's uniform that has persisted on the web longer than other TOS production memos. There is a copy of it reprinted here along with an accurate explanation of how the various Starfleet branches were actually organized:
Commodore Decker wears the Starflower Petal insignia because he is a commodore assigned to field duty. The regular crew of the Constellation, if any were left, would have worn the Delta like everyone else.
Captain Tracy's insignia was a mistake, the very blunder that incited Justman to write that memo reminding everyone that they had an official list of Starfleet branches (six branches, btw) and their insignia and to make sure to use them going forward. Note that Tracy's crew wore the delta, as shown in sickbay and elsewhere.
Interesting.
I am a navy vet. Every command in the navy, whether a training command, an air base, an air wing, or a ship, has its own insignia, but that is not incorporated into most, if any, uniforms. We might have sewn a ship patch on our work coveralls, and when out to sea we could wear a lot of stuff that we would not wear in port or for any official things.
If you have seen pictures of a carrier flight deck you may have noticed people wearing different colored shirts. Well, I was not part of the air wing, but I did have a job involving ordnance, and that is a red shirt (yes, I know...). So there were many days that we would just wear navy-issue coveralls and our red shirts underneath with a metal rank pin on the collar of the red shirt. If someone had a ship patch on their coveralls no one would care.
When it came to dress uniforms, though, we did wear a command patch. Not the ship or squadron symbol, just a small patch worn at the top of our sleeve with the name of our command on it. A squadron or ship name. U.S.S. Enterpise, for example.
So I was on The U.S.S. Ranger.
A couple of squadrons that joined us when we went out to sea were the Bounty Hunters and the Wolfpack.
Every command with its own insignia.
So it makes some sense for each ship to have a unique logo, and the stylized delta doesn't seem to serve any real purpose other than to try and make things look good on TV. If they just wanted a "job marker" they could have done that in a number of siimple ways. Just sew it on the uniform somewhere (chest, above the rank stripes, wherever), place it on a square, rectangular, or round badge (no need for the stylized delta), etc.
The overall uniform marks them as Starfleet. The badge is just extra. I like the idea of every ship having its own badge, and there is some sense that future Enterprises might use some variation of the classic ship symbol.
Ok, whatever this ☝🏻conversation is has nothing to do with the OP and is derailing the thread. Please, desist. Thank you.
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The only way to reliably test weapon vs weapon dps is to run one weapon at a time. Which I know sounds silly. However its the only way to account for power draw.
This is objectively false. What you're proposing with this will only give you a theoretical outcome and not an actual real world outcome. It's akin to slapping a test dummy like back in WoW. It can give you a theoretical range of where you should be, but will not be the real world number you pull. No one is going to run just a single weapon at the time, so this is foolish. More on why in a moment.
For what its worth... I just ran the most annoying Patrol ever.
Romulan Experimental [crtd/dmg] [crtd]x4
Disruptor Omni directional [crtd/dmg] [crtd]x2 [Arc] [Pen]
I don't have a romulan and omni without pen on this toon. But this will be close enough. I only fired these 2 weapons disabled all other weapons... didn't use any Sci or debuffs, just a copy of reroute so I wouldn't be there all day. I used the Romulan experimental as it has zero weapon power draw.... it does however have the small dmg buff from having a T6 rep done. Still this will serve.
I don't doubt that you ran the patrol and produced the results you claim. However I would appreciate seeing an actual parse file for this stuff so I can not only verify but also compare to. I can see the relative crit rate of both weapons, singular hits and so on. There is more data that can be revealed by a parse than simply us reading a final number.
Now with that in mind, the test you produced here is invalid for a number of reasons. You contaminated your results before you ever started by use of the pen mod and use of the Experimental Array before you ever started. First up, you're comparing a hybridized beam that can pop a plasma or disruptor proc on a target diluting the potential proc of the disruptor resistance debuff on the Romulan beam. In addition it's getting a 2% cat2 boost in its damage straight out of the gate further diluting the results and artificially inflating the numbers for the beam array. This beam is also not draining as much power which further dilutes the waters in terms of this test making it unreliable as the omni would then benefit from extra power it's not going to have if you're doing a 1 to 1 test like you've described wanting to do.
On the opposite side of the coin, the omni also has a pen mod present on it which is equivalent to an already existing disruptor proc, thus allowing you to double dip on the damage to inflate the numbers of the omni. Thus this omni is essentially getting twice the armor bypass of the array.
If you're wanting to do a single weapon comparison as you've said of crafted omni vs beam array, you'll want to use crafted/standard array and crafted omni. In this case standard disruptor vs standard disruptor omni. You'll also want to make sure the mods are as close as possible. For example, the beam array is [crtd/dmg] [dmgx4] and the omni is [crtd/dmg] [dmgx3] [arc]. Thus there is no potential double dipping going on for armor bypassing. To get your theoretical one to one numbers you would run the test twice. First run, put the array in the first position so it can draw the most amount of power, then the omni in another slot and run the test. Second run, swap their positions so now the omni is in the lead and the array is in the other slot.
Then if you want to get your actual real world numbers, you'll want to run the arrays and omnis in a way that people will actually use them. In other words you'll want to put the array up front and omni in the back and run the test with a full setup. For example, beam array first slot on the forward arc, omni first slot on the rear arc. For the second test you will swap the omni and beam array positions. Thus you have real world data and eliminated power draw from the equation. Test can be repeated with a set omni in place of the crafted so you have the full picture.
Now with all of that said, even with extra attacks in your own numbers, the omni STILL couldn't outdo the array which was the point. In a real world situation the array will ALWAYS outdo the omni if both of them are firing and hitting a target. The only way the omni ever surpasses the array is if the array is disabled or outright stops firing. Even then it will need time to catch up to and surpass the array.
Lastly again the entire point is that beam users shouldn't be denied the use of space sets when cannon users are not. A cannon user for polaron as mentioned before can slot the morphogenic weapon, chronometric turret, and inhibiting turret and use all 3 sets. Beam users can't do that, it's either one set or the other. The only way to use all 3 sets is mix cannons with beams which beam users generally don't want to do unless they're going mixed armament build. Point being it's an arbitrary restriction that needs to go as it has no real value today. As a final final thought, I've always assumed crafted omnis would be nerfed to make them in line with set omnis, thus the omni damage is normalized and crafted omnis are no longer an outlier. Folks can mix and match as they please. Beam users can stick to full beam setups and not have to mix in turrets, just like cannon users are free to utilize all 3 sets. That is the rub.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
I posted the weapons mods... as you can see crit chance was identical. Rom Experimental has 20% extra crtd due to mod nad 2% bonus dmg from rep. Omni has [pen]. I say that is a pretty fair trade... and my parse agreed. If I wanted to go through the hassle I guess I could have found myself a omni without [pen].
Really though you want results do your own math run your own tests.
The tool tip does not lie no matter what you want to claim. Crafted omni beams have the same base damage as single arrays. This IS NOT Debatable. It is a fact.
Run what ever test run you want. However as I stated YES if you load 8 weapons that are all drawing power that is going to make it very hard to compare. So your options are to run something like reroute power or exceed rated limits to make power draw a non issue. OR use the only beam in the game that draws no power at all (The Rom Experimental) which is the route I choose for my little test. It confirmed that the tool tip does not lie at all. Omni and Single arrays are identical.
For what its worth on the idea of unlocking set omni beams... I don't really care much on that frankly. My main concern is omnis in general as crafted omnis trade nothing but one mod for 360 degrees of fire. As for an advantage over Cannons cause cannon users can slot multiple sets... come on now. Don't be disingenuous, no one currently does that for any real Meta style build cause Turrets suck. We only slot turrets cause there is no other choice. We run turrets cause we want to use DHC... not because turrets are actually good. Really if you have 3 rear slots, as long as you have a MW seat of some kind chances are your putting an omni back there for mixed arm synergy or on the top end the collected arm trait from the shrike. No one runs 4 turrets. lol
"Non-set Omnis have the same base damage as Beam Arrays (200), while set Omnis have have reduced base damage (176), or lower in the case of a Support Omni. Support Omnis are not considered separate from normal ones in terms of equip limits."
There's another wiki entry somewhere that has a slightly different base damage amount, but in either case they say a Crafted Omni has the same base as a normal beam array, Set Omnis get an @12% damage reduction, and Support Omnis (Competitive Rep) get even more reduction.
Since the Crafted/Non-set limit is already 1 and most people are talking about Set limits, I think they should stay as is. With the loss of a damage mod (for ARC), Set omnis are about 15% reduced. So if set omnis were increased to 2 or more, they should probably receive a base damage reduction of about 22% (25% taking the mod loss into account). That would make them viable without being OP.
As Husanakx said, any actual DPS builds are likely only using rear slots for specific set unlocks that match various DPS traits. I don't think there's much use of 'set' Omnis to complete power builds. They're mostly for people going for themes or just fooling around with the gear they have.
However after looking further into the various Omnis that have been available and how they can be used, I can see that they can't really just remove all restrictions without at least updating the base damages or creating some sort of stacking penalty.
"Non-set Omnis have the same base damage as Beam Arrays (200), while set Omnis have have reduced base damage (176), or lower in the case of a Support Omni. Support Omnis are not considered separate from normal ones in terms of equip limits."
There's another wiki entry somewhere that has a slightly different base damage amount, but in either case they say a Crafted Omni has the same base as a normal beam array, Set Omnis get an @12% damage reduction, and Support Omnis (Competitive Rep) get even more reduction.
Since the Crafted/Non-set limit is already 1 and most people are talking about Set limits, I think they should stay as is. With the loss of a damage mod (for ARC), Set omnis are about 15% reduced. So if set omnis were increased to 2 or more, they should probably receive a base damage reduction of about 22% (25% taking the mod loss into account). That would make them viable without being OP.
As Husanakx said, any actual DPS builds are likely only using rear slots for specific set unlocks that match various DPS traits. I don't think there's much use of 'set' Omnis to complete power builds. They're mostly for people going for themes or just fooling around with the gear they have.
However after looking further into the various Omnis that have been available and how they can be used, I can see that they can't really just remove all restrictions without at least updating the base damages or creating some sort of stacking penalty.
Just because set omnis are of more use to theme builds than to meta DPS builds does not mean that people wanting to do theme builds should be discriminated against. And it has been proven during that recent flag error that having at least two set omnis is not OP, in fact it has no discernable DPS difference from the one & one nonsense that is currently the rule.
Simplifying the rule to ANY TWO omnis would have nothing but good effects since it makes no difference mechanically and it would eliminate a lot of the confusion that newer players face when they start using omnis. Going beyond two might be problematic (I have not done that math so I dont know for sure), but that is a whole different beast than the already proven in regular gameplay "any two".
The ideal though would be at least "any three" if they can do it without it contributing to power creep, it is unlikely that someone would be running more than three weapon/console sets on the same ship, and the KCB is available if someone wants a 360 beam in all four rear slots (though how they would avoid a torpedo back there with three sets mounted is something of a mystery).
"Non-set Omnis have the same base damage as Beam Arrays (200), while set Omnis have have reduced base damage (176), or lower in the case of a Support Omni. Support Omnis are not considered separate from normal ones in terms of equip limits."
There's another wiki entry somewhere that has a slightly different base damage amount, but in either case they say a Crafted Omni has the same base as a normal beam array, Set Omnis get an @12% damage reduction, and Support Omnis (Competitive Rep) get even more reduction.
Since the Crafted/Non-set limit is already 1 and most people are talking about Set limits, I think they should stay as is. With the loss of a damage mod (for ARC), Set omnis are about 15% reduced. So if set omnis were increased to 2 or more, they should probably receive a base damage reduction of about 22% (25% taking the mod loss into account). That would make them viable without being OP.
As Husanakx said, any actual DPS builds are likely only using rear slots for specific set unlocks that match various DPS traits. I don't think there's much use of 'set' Omnis to complete power builds. They're mostly for people going for themes or just fooling around with the gear they have.
However after looking further into the various Omnis that have been available and how they can be used, I can see that they can't really just remove all restrictions without at least updating the base damages or creating some sort of stacking penalty.
Just because set omnis are of more use to theme builds than to meta DPS builds does not mean that people wanting to do theme builds should be discriminated against. And it has been proven during that recent flag error that having at least two set omnis is not OP, in fact it has no discernable DPS difference from the one & one nonsense that is currently the rule.
Simplifying the rule to ANY TWO omnis would have nothing but good effects since it makes no difference mechanically and it would eliminate a lot of the confusion that newer players face when they start using omnis. Going beyond two might be problematic (I have not done that math so I dont know for sure), but that is a whole different beast than the already proven in regular gameplay "any two".
The ideal though would be at least "any three" if they can do it without it contributing to power creep, it is unlikely that someone would be running more than three weapon/console sets on the same ship, and the KCB is available if someone wants a 360 beam in all four rear slots (though how they would avoid a torpedo back there with three sets mounted is something of a mystery).
To be fair. I don't think it would be game breaking IF they unlocked set omnis completely. I mean for the most part you would be gimping yourself as most sets suck. As long as it remains 1 real Omni only. The crafted omnis are full damage beams... and limiting them to one per ship is the only option if we want single arrays to exist.
Having said that some form of restriction should still be in play on sets anyway. It might be complicated and I'm not sure the engine can be made to conform... but maybe the logical answer is.
1 Crafted/lockbox non set omni.
As many set omnis as you can slot in AFT only slots.
This would keep single arrays from being essentially replaced by 360 single arrays. While also not having to nerf the damage on the lockbox and crafted omnis we already have in the game. It should also keep the set stuff within reason as well... most of the sets are already damage reduced (or double reduced in the case of the support weapons). IMO it would just add some build options. IMO most meta builds are probably still going to use one of the traits and or skills that buffs dmg based on weapon type use. (meaning people will still slot a turret with their beams for buffs) However it would also allow people to put 3 omnis in the back of a destroyer if that is what they really want to do. I mean the extra power draw is probably going to cost them DPS... but if it makes them happy ok. The main issue I would have is if they simply unlocked the actual full damage omnis. We don't need 3 full dmg omnis in the back of destoryer and battle cruiser type ships.
I posted the weapons mods... as you can see crit chance was identical. Rom Experimental has 20% extra crtd due to mod nad 2% bonus dmg from rep. Omni has [pen]. I say that is a pretty fair trade... and my parse agreed. If I wanted to go through the hassle I guess I could have found myself a omni without [pen].
Really though you want results do your own math run your own tests.
Your parse only agreed because you stacked the test to get a desired outcome, which isn't a real test. If you're going to run a test like you said you wanted to do then you need to get the weapons as close as possible in terms of mods and potential boosts they could benefit from. Yet you didn't do that. You kept a pen mod on your omni to allow it to double dip on its armor bypass thus artificially inflating its damage to make the array and omni seem closer than they would be in a real world situation. Then there's the boost being attached to the array further diluting the numbers.
The tool tip does not lie no matter what you want to claim. Crafted omni beams have the same base damage as single arrays. This IS NOT Debatable. It is a fact.
Read what I've said again but slower. Regardless of whatever you want to credit as the cause, the final damage value of an omni is NOT the same as an array. 1618 =/= 1571. THAT is what's not debatable. If you're seriously going to sit here and say those two numbers are the same then there's nothing more anyone can say as you're choosing to ignore reality at that point.
Run what ever test run you want. However as I stated YES if you load 8 weapons that are all drawing power that is going to make it very hard to compare. So your options are to run something like reroute power or exceed rated limits to make power draw a non issue. OR use the only beam in the game that draws no power at all (The Rom Experimental) which is the route I choose for my little test. It confirmed that the tool tip does not lie at all. Omni and Single arrays are identical.
See above again, you only got the result you did because you tried to rig the test to get a specific outcome you wanted to be true. If you really wanted to do a legit test you would've used a standard disruptor beam array and standard omni and either had pen on both of them, or left the pen off entirely. You let one of them double dip but not the other which is going throw the numbers off dramatically.
See also what I said before if power draw is a concern. Do one test as normal with the array in slot 1 and the omni in the first aft slot and parse. Then swap the positions of the weapons so now the omni is in slot 1 and the array in the first aft slot, and parse again. You've then eliminated the power draw factor as you'll have data for both of them draining no power, and again with reduced power, thus both sides are covered. You're severely overthinking this dude.
For what its worth on the idea of unlocking set omni beams... I don't really care much on that frankly. My main concern is omnis in general as crafted omnis trade nothing but one mod for 360 degrees of fire. As for an advantage over Cannons cause cannon users can slot multiple sets... come on now. Don't be disingenuous, no one currently does that for any real Meta style build cause Turrets suck. We only slot turrets cause there is no other choice. We run turrets cause we want to use DHC... not because turrets are actually good. Really if you have 3 rear slots, as long as you have a MW seat of some kind chances are your putting an omni back there for mixed arm synergy or on the top end the collected arm trait from the shrike. No one runs 4 turrets. lol
If you don't care as much as you say about unlocking omnis or certain omnis, why have you protested so hard? I legit have to ask. Assuming they were unlocked the assumption has been crafted omnis being reduced in damage to match the set omnis reduced damage, so again what's the problem since all omnis are on equal ground at that point?
For the part in bold, you really need to take a step back and read what is being said to you before you start throwing accusations of being disingenuous. Another thing, not everyone cares about "meta" builds and not everyone plays like you, or even plays like me. I don't care whatever flavor of the month meta favors right now, there are other builds out there and ways to play besides meta. As is right now, if I wanted to use polarons for a beam build and I wanted to call on all 3 sets that exist current which are morphogenic, chronometric and inhibiting, I can't use all 3 omnis and complete all 3 sets. I'm forced to either use 2 turrets or be locked out of 2 of the complete sets. Cannon users have no such restrictions and can use all 3 set turrets where as beam users can't use all 3 set omnis. As a beam user I either have to incorporate 2 turrets that I have no desire to run, or get locked out of 2 sets I shouldn't be getting locked out of. THAT is the issue and it shouldn't be happening. If I want to run beams I should be able to use all beams and not have to incorporate 2 turrets into the build, that's just foolish.
Regardless of whether it's "meta" or not, beam users shouldn't have to pick and choose like that when cannon users can freely use all 3 sets with no issue. I don't know how many times I can say this or point it out, there are other valid build styles and playstyles aside from whatever flavor of the month is "meta". Not everyone cares about that junk, me being one of them. If you like meta stuff and want to stick to meta, you do you dude.
If I'm running polaron and I'm slotting those 2 turrets it's got nothing to do with miracle worker seating or using mixed armament synergy, but because it's either use those turrets or get locked out of set bonuses, which is a choice people shouldn't have to make. Lastly, simply because it's not something YOU would do doesn't make it any less of an option. You're one person with one preferred style of build and your way of playing isn't the only way of playing. Simply because something isn't "meta" doesn't make it bad. Simply because something isn't "meta" doesn't mean people shouldn't have the option. If you don't like it don't run it. Simple as that. I do not care about mixed armament builds, not my cup of tea. Point is that if I want to run all 3 set omnis I should be allowed to do it, especially since cannon users can run all 3 turrets with no issues. It's an artificial disparity and discriminatory against beam users as much as I hate to use that word in a video game.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
I posted the weapons mods... as you can see crit chance was identical. Rom Experimental has 20% extra crtd due to mod nad 2% bonus dmg from rep. Omni has [pen]. I say that is a pretty fair trade... and my parse agreed. If I wanted to go through the hassle I guess I could have found myself a omni without [pen].
Really though you want results do your own math run your own tests.
Your parse only agreed because you stacked the test to get a desired outcome, which isn't a real test. If you're going to run a test like you said you wanted to do then you need to get the weapons as close as possible in terms of mods and potential boosts they could benefit from. Yet you didn't do that. You kept a pen mod on your omni to allow it to double dip on its armor bypass thus artificially inflating its damage to make the array and omni seem closer than they would be in a real world situation. Then there's the boost being attached to the array further diluting the numbers.
The tool tip does not lie no matter what you want to claim. Crafted omni beams have the same base damage as single arrays. This IS NOT Debatable. It is a fact.
Read what I've said again but slower. Regardless of whatever you want to credit as the cause, the final damage value of an omni is NOT the same as an array. 1618 =/= 1571. THAT is what's not debatable. If you're seriously going to sit here and say those two numbers are the same then there's nothing more anyone can say as you're choosing to ignore reality at that point.
Run what ever test run you want. However as I stated YES if you load 8 weapons that are all drawing power that is going to make it very hard to compare. So your options are to run something like reroute power or exceed rated limits to make power draw a non issue. OR use the only beam in the game that draws no power at all (The Rom Experimental) which is the route I choose for my little test. It confirmed that the tool tip does not lie at all. Omni and Single arrays are identical.
See above again, you only got the result you did because you tried to rig the test to get a specific outcome you wanted to be true. If you really wanted to do a legit test you would've used a standard disruptor beam array and standard omni and either had pen on both of them, or left the pen off entirely. You let one of them double dip but not the other which is going throw the numbers off dramatically.
See also what I said before if power draw is a concern. Do one test as normal with the array in slot 1 and the omni in the first aft slot and parse. Then swap the positions of the weapons so now the omni is in slot 1 and the array in the first aft slot, and parse again. You've then eliminated the power draw factor as you'll have data for both of them draining no power, and again with reduced power, thus both sides are covered. You're severely overthinking this dude.
For what its worth on the idea of unlocking set omni beams... I don't really care much on that frankly. My main concern is omnis in general as crafted omnis trade nothing but one mod for 360 degrees of fire. As for an advantage over Cannons cause cannon users can slot multiple sets... come on now. Don't be disingenuous, no one currently does that for any real Meta style build cause Turrets suck. We only slot turrets cause there is no other choice. We run turrets cause we want to use DHC... not because turrets are actually good. Really if you have 3 rear slots, as long as you have a MW seat of some kind chances are your putting an omni back there for mixed arm synergy or on the top end the collected arm trait from the shrike. No one runs 4 turrets. lol
If you don't care as much as you say about unlocking omnis or certain omnis, why have you protested so hard? I legit have to ask. Assuming they were unlocked the assumption has been crafted omnis being reduced in damage to match the set omnis reduced damage, so again what's the problem since all omnis are on equal ground at that point?
For the part in bold, you really need to take a step back and read what is being said to you before you start throwing accusations of being disingenuous. Another thing, not everyone cares about "meta" builds and not everyone plays like you, or even plays like me. I don't care whatever flavor of the month meta favors right now, there are other builds out there and ways to play besides meta. As is right now, if I wanted to use polarons for a beam build and I wanted to call on all 3 sets that exist current which are morphogenic, chronometric and inhibiting, I can't use all 3 omnis and complete all 3 sets. I'm forced to either use 2 turrets or be locked out of 2 of the complete sets. Cannon users have no such restrictions and can use all 3 set turrets where as beam users can't use all 3 set omnis. As a beam user I either have to incorporate 2 turrets that I have no desire to run, or get locked out of 2 sets I shouldn't be getting locked out of. THAT is the issue and it shouldn't be happening. If I want to run beams I should be able to use all beams and not have to incorporate 2 turrets into the build, that's just foolish.
Regardless of whether it's "meta" or not, beam users shouldn't have to pick and choose like that when cannon users can freely use all 3 sets with no issue. I don't know how many times I can say this or point it out, there are other valid build styles and playstyles aside from whatever flavor of the month is "meta". Not everyone cares about that junk, me being one of them. If you like meta stuff and want to stick to meta, you do you dude.
If I'm running polaron and I'm slotting those 2 turrets it's got nothing to do with miracle worker seating or using mixed armament synergy, but because it's either use those turrets or get locked out of set bonuses, which is a choice people shouldn't have to make. Lastly, simply because it's not something YOU would do doesn't make it any less of an option. You're one person with one preferred style of build and your way of playing isn't the only way of playing. Simply because something isn't "meta" doesn't make it bad. Simply because something isn't "meta" doesn't mean people shouldn't have the option. If you don't like it don't run it. Simple as that. I do not care about mixed armament builds, not my cup of tea. Point is that if I want to run all 3 set omnis I should be allowed to do it, especially since cannon users can run all 3 turrets with no issues. It's an artificial disparity and discriminatory against beam users as much as I hate to use that word in a video game.
Your assertion that 1618 and 1571 is a difference worth even talking about is frankly silly. Yes we all know why that is the non omni has one extra damage mod. We have been over this base damage is identical. That is as = as anything gets in this game. With its dirty database tables.
As for my test being skued. It proves my point... eliminate as many factors as you can and a crafted or lockbox omni is just a single array. It is no different in terms of BASE damage. That is a simple fact that no matter how much you rehash it is still a fact.
Your right I didn't bother to go through all my toons looking for a fully upgraded romulan advance weapon, cause frankly I rarely use that thing. I had it on that toon so I ran a quick test removing the power drain issues. Romulan advance weapon had 20% more crtd and 2% bonus damage from a T6 rep bonus. Ombi got a PEN mod. Frankly that is pretty much =. The base damages are basically =... and a according to my parse if I did my best to ensure they got the same number of attacks the actual DPS recorded was with in margin of error. I don't really care enough to go buy or craft another omni to run a non pen test. I mean its stupid test to run anyway when I already know the answer. Tool tip data, years of parses... omni beams (non set) are just arrays with one less mod... that is never out of arc.
As to why I care if I say I don't care about set omnis. Cause read what I have posted. Set omnis PAY for their [arc] mods. They have reduced base damage. I don't think it would be game breaking to allow people to slot those aft only. I do no believe people should be allowed to slot more then one in a fore weapon slot... I don't believe anyone should be able to slot more then one lockbox/crafted non set omni, as they don't pay a price for their arc. (which is balanced in the game with a 1 per ship restriction)
Also stop worry about what Cannon users COULD do. No cannon users run multiple turrets to enable set bonuses. It doesn't happen cause turret damage is so bad you run as few of them as required as a general rule. The power drain on a turret removes more DPS then you gain from the turret itself.
If the developers decide to simply unlock all omnis. Then beam arrays are as obsolete as single cannons. Sure people will still run set weapons like the terran, disco, lukari beams cause they do more damage. Actual base model arrays though? No you would be stupid to not run a omni instead... if you could slot 3 or 4 or them.
Your assertion that 1618 and 1571 is a difference worth even talking about is frankly silly. Yes we all know why that is the non omni has one extra damage mod. We have been over this base damage is identical. That is as = as anything gets in this game. With its dirty database tables.
As for my test being skued. It proves my point... eliminate as many factors as you can and a crafted or lockbox omni is just a single array. It is no different in terms of BASE damage. That is a simple fact that no matter how much you rehash it is still a fact.
Step back and read what's being said to you slowly, because now you're just plain ignoring reality. I am telling you there is a difference between the overall damage of the crafted omni vs a beam array. If you want to say that's because the beam array gets an extra dmg mod the omni doesn't that's fine. It still doesn't change the fact that the omni is doing less overall damage than the array. If both are firing and hitting their target, that omni is never going to outdo that beam array in damage. If you want to say the damage difference is minimal, again fine. Crafted omnis are still doing less than arrays, you just think the gap in their damage should be wider. 1618 will always be more than 1571 and no amount of wishful thinking changes that.
As for your test being skewed, it proves something alright but what it proves is that you tried to rig the outcome in your favor to prove me wrong and you STILL proved yourself wrong about omnis potentially being able to outdo arrays. Your own data showed that even if you let the omni double dip on armor bypass, and it fired more often, and had extra power to draw from, it still CAN'T outdo a beam array. You tried every way in the world to rig the test and still came up short.
Your right I didn't bother to go through all my toons looking for a fully upgraded romulan advance weapon, cause frankly I rarely use that thing. I had it on that toon so I ran a quick test removing the power drain issues. Romulan advance weapon had 20% more crtd and 2% bonus damage from a T6 rep bonus. Ombi got a PEN mod. Frankly that is pretty much =. The base damages are basically =... and a according to my parse if I did my best to ensure they got the same number of attacks the actual DPS recorded was with in margin of error. I don't really care enough to go buy or craft another omni to run a non pen test. I mean its stupid test to run anyway when I already know the answer. Tool tip data, years of parses... omni beams (non set) are just arrays with one less mod... that is never out of arc.
The only reason your "test" was in the margin of error is because you tried to rig the test and fabricate evidence to make it appear omnis and arrays are closer in damage than they actually are. In other words you tried to deceive people into thinking the gap between them is less than it really is and it still backfired on you. It's the same concept as people on social media who chop up videos to make it looks like someone said something they never actually did. By your own admission you say you already know the answer and it's a stupid test to run, and you deliberately used those weapons to "eliminate power drain issues" and such, why should I or anyone else trust your test? All you've done is ensured I'm going to take whatever data you produce and throw it out because it can't be trusted. I would encourage others to do the same too. If the damage of crafted omnis and arrays was as close as you wanted us to believe, you wouldn't have needed to try and rig the outcome. You would have ran the test and let the data speak for itself. But instead you got caught with your hand in the proverbial cookie jar.
As to why I care if I say I don't care about set omnis. Cause read what I have posted. Set omnis PAY for their [arc] mods. They have reduced base damage. I don't think it would be game breaking to allow people to slot those aft only. I do no believe people should be allowed to slot more then one in a fore weapon slot... I don't believe anyone should be able to slot more then one lockbox/crafted non set omni, as they don't pay a price for their arc. (which is balanced in the game with a 1 per ship restriction)
And for the millionth time you dodge the question. Who is hurt or harmed if I'm able to slot 8 omnis on a ship? How are you negatively effected by it? Are you suddenly not able to slot beam arrays anymore? How are you being negatively effected by it? Why should their ability to slot stuff be restricted because you don't like it? Once again assuming omnis were unlocked and people could run 8 of them, I've assumed from the start that crafted omnis would be nerfed to bring them in line with set omnis thus they're "paying" for that arc mod. So again what's the issue?
If the developers decide to simply unlock all omnis. Then beam arrays are as obsolete as single cannons. Sure people will still run set weapons like the terran, disco, lukari beams cause they do more damage. Actual base model arrays though? No you would be stupid to not run a omni instead... if you could slot 3 or 4 or them.
See again, I've assumed crafted omnis would be brought in line with set omnis and their damage reduced. So what exactly is the problem again? If the goal is to do as much damage as possible then going with pure omnis is the objectively inferior option and you're leaving damage on the table you don't need to be leaving. As asked above if omnis are unlocked, do you suddenly lose the ability to slot arrays, no of course you don't. Simply because an option exists doesn't mean you have to do it.
Also stop worry about what Cannon users COULD do. No cannon users run multiple turrets to enable set bonuses. It doesn't happen cause turret damage is so bad you run as few of them as required as a general rule. The power drain on a turret removes more DPS then you gain from the turret itself.
I saved this part for last because it gets back to the heart of the original issue. Point blank dude you have no idea what you're talking about. Saying that "no cannon user runs multiple turrets to enable set bonuses" is like saying that beam users don't run multiple set beams to take enable set bonuses. It's an objectively false statement as plenty of people run various items to utilize multiple set bonuses all the time. If I'm running antiproton as my energy type on my tank, I'm going to be running ba'ul 3 piece for the set bonuses, sometimes I will use the 2 piece radiant set from Iconian rep, and the 2 piece Temporal Defense set. Assuming I call on all 3 sets, that's 3 different set weapons that I'm using for my tank. If I'm willing to use 3 set weapons to activate multiple bonuses using beams, why would cannons suddenly be different? Simply because you personally wouldn't do it for cannons doesn't mean other people wouldn't. Your way of playing and building is not the only way.
Now as I said about this getting back to the heart of the issue. My issue is that in many cases as a beam user if I want to utilize certain weapon sets, I'm forced to either slot a turret or be locked out of multiple sets with polaron being the prime example. If I want to use the chronometric, morphogenic, and inhibiting sets, as a beam user I'm forced to either slot 2 turrets to activate those sets, or be locked out of them. Cannon users don't have to make that choice, and THAT is my issue. I don't care if it's not meta to use all 3 of those sets or if it bothers you that I cite that as my concern. Bottom line is beam users are restricted in an arbitrary way where cannon users aren't. If cannon users don't have to pick and choose which of those 3 sets to use and can use all 3 of their turrets, I should be able to use all 3 of my omnis. Plain as day.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
My friend. Stop worrying about mods.
I am talking about the BASELINE damage of the weapons. The base damage is =. That is a fact. Non Set omni beams are single arrays with extended arc. There is zero difference in their base line damage.
Yes omnis have a [arc] mod. Who cares. The base damage is the same. Lets get in the weeds... and argue about [dmg] vs [crtd] vs [arc] vs [pen]. Its not relevant. The base damage of the weapons is the same.
Your argument is faulty. So we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. I know where the devs stand, so this argument really doesn't matter. Cryptic choose when they added omnis to the game... to not reduce their damage as they would with turrets, instead they restricted them to 1 per ship. Cryptic as long as I remember have been doing everything they can to try and get people to not just run one weapon type. They didn't want omnis to become people running around with 8 of them. Turrets annoyed them as well so they nerfed procs. Cryptic isn't going to decide now to unlock omnis. I doubt DECA does either.
It would be easy enough for the devs to simply change the crafted omnis to "only one per ship" like a lot of other special weapons already are, and it would not disturb any current build doing so while at the same time removing the possibility of crafted ones throwing off the balance or making arrays obsolete. Then the general omni restrictions could be simplified to "any (two, three, whatever the devs decide)" which would clear up most of the confusion for players just starting to use omnis.
As for sets, many omni-containing sets don't even have turrets as an (underwhelming) fallback option (in fact, three out of the four recent event sets containing a ship weapon ONLY had omnis as the energy weapon) which effectively locks that set out completely if you use an omni from another set to get that other set's top bonus (usually for theme purposes since the top spot is almost inevitably the only "signature" power and the lower ones rather generic/invisible).
My friend. Stop worrying about mods.
I am talking about the BASELINE damage of the weapons. The base damage is =. That is a fact. Non Set omni beams are single arrays with extended arc. There is zero difference in their base line damage.
Yes omnis have a [arc] mod. Who cares. The base damage is the same. Lets get in the weeds... and argue about [dmg] vs [crtd] vs [arc] vs [pen]. Its not relevant. The base damage of the weapons is the same.
Yes I'm aware of what you meant. However I don't care about the base damage as it's ultimately irrelevant. I care about the final value and damage it's going to do because that's what ultimately matters. Final damage of a crafted omni is not the same as a beam array. If you want to say it's within so close of a margin to make it negligible, that's a valid argument. However fact remains the final overall damage of a standard beam array and a crafted omni are in fact different, with the omni being the lesser of the two. I mentioned the mods and stuff I did before because it's absolutely relevant if you're going to try to test the damage output of them, such as when you used an omni with pen on it. If one was going to test the weapons output they needed to have as close of mods as possible and that pen mod was a big time outlier that contaminated the results. If not for that I wouldn't have mentioned it.
My friend. Stop worrying about mods.
Your argument is faulty. So we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. I know where the devs stand, so this argument really doesn't matter. Cryptic choose when they added omnis to the game... to not reduce their damage as they would with turrets, instead they restricted them to 1 per ship. Cryptic as long as I remember have been doing everything they can to try and get people to not just run one weapon type. They didn't want omnis to become people running around with 8 of them. Turrets annoyed them as well so they nerfed procs. Cryptic isn't going to decide now to unlock omnis. I doubt DECA does either.
You're free to think it's faulty even though it's not. And no you don't know where the devs stand until they specifically say one way or another. As I've said several times now, that's why I even said to take the previous explanation I was given with a grain of salt as it may not be accurate anymore. Dev that gave me that explanation is no longer with the studio. Assuming the explanation I was given is still accurate (again a big IF), then the reason they're limited is issues with hardpoints. If you want to speculate why they're still limited then by all means.
However the whole "didn't want people running just one type of weapon" thing I'm calling shenanigans on. Look no further than all turret builds, all beam array builds, and modern torp only builds as prime examples. And no procs on weapons weren't nerfed purely because of turrets. You have things like kemocite, coalition disruptors and similar items to thank for that stuff. Certain procs were causing major calculation issues when they were allowed to proc multiple times per cycle and would stack to ridiculous levels. In some instances when I helped test certain abilities I saw as much as a -250 across the board on damage resists thanks to coalition disruptors and some other stuff. That is why proc rates were limited and reined in.
Now we can debate whether or not they'll actually unlock omnis, maybe they will, maybe they won't. However I still stand by my assertion they need to be unlocked to be on equal footing with cannons. It's ridiculous that cannon users don't have to pick and choose which sets they use but beam users do. It's also ridiculous that cannon users can have an all turrets build but beam users can't have an all omnis build. Doesn't matter if they're "meta" or if it's a smart thing to do or not. If one has the option, both should have it.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
I know I've already weighed in on this from the perspective of a casual player, but I think we need to step back and take a breath as right now, at least to me, it feels like the two camps are not listening and going over the same points.
Honestly I don't know why some are so dead set on saying "they are the same" on base damage when at the end of the day modifiers are going to change the damage output. The ONLY WAY to say for ABSLOUTE sure that they would be the same is to compare two WHITE quality weapons. Which is impossible as there are no white quality Omnis.
Even CrtH mods will affect the damage output of an Omni Beam because of the higher chance to crit. And that is not taking into account the player's own stats.
Base damage is base damage, but the fact remains there are things ON TOP of that influencing the damage output. To me this whole "base damage" argument is moot because of that alone. I may not be a top tier DPSer, but I doubt anyone is looking at weapons thinking "oh the unmodded base damage of this will improve my ability to delete things!"
If it has mods that they don't want I'm pretty sure they're throwing it in the reengineering device to reroll until they get the desired mods.
I just don't understand why base damage is being used as an argument on something that naturally comes with mods that affect its damage output.
The CLOSEST you can get to comparing damage that way is to take two weapons without any [DMG] modifiers at all. But then we have the variables caused by [CrtH] and [CrtD] that could skew results because of random crits. And then we have to consider Cat1 and Cat2 modifiers like items that either give +X Damage or +X Bonus Damage in a build, unless you're going in a shuttle with absolutely nothing to augment damage in.
So frankly... after all this... honestly it really doesn't matter who is right. Ok so maybe the base damage is about the same, but at the same time modifiers alter the damage output. Its not a binary thing here. Its not one or the other.
It would be easy enough for the devs to simply change the crafted omnis to "only one per ship" like a lot of other special weapons already are, and it would not disturb any current build doing so while at the same time removing the possibility of crafted ones throwing off the balance or making arrays obsolete. Then the general omni restrictions could be simplified to "any (two, three, whatever the devs decide)" which would clear up most of the confusion for players just starting to use omnis.
As for sets, many omni-containing sets don't even have turrets as an (underwhelming) fallback option (in fact, three out of the four recent event sets containing a ship weapon ONLY had omnis as the energy weapon) which effectively locks that set out completely if you use an omni from another set to get that other set's top bonus (usually for theme purposes since the top spot is almost inevitably the only "signature" power and the lower ones rather generic/invisible).
That is a good point. The devs have seemed to forget not everyone uses beams. I don't know if it was a choice to not further buff cannons which at least with CSV are still king. My feeling is it was more an artifact of staffing changes. Things like the protostar set seemed like a bit of an oversight.
I know I've already weighed in on this from the perspective of a casual player, but I think we need to step back and take a breath as right now, at least to me, it feels like the two camps are not listening and going over the same points.
Honestly I don't know why some are so dead set on saying "they are the same" on base damage when at the end of the day modifiers are going to change the damage output. The ONLY WAY to say for ABSLOUTE sure that they would be the same is to compare two WHITE quality weapons. Which is impossible as there are no white quality Omnis.
Even CrtH mods will affect the damage output of an Omni Beam because of the higher chance to crit. And that is not taking into account the player's own stats.
Base damage is base damage, but the fact remains there are things ON TOP of that influencing the damage output. To me this whole "base damage" argument is moot because of that alone. I may not be a top tier DPSer, but I doubt anyone is looking at weapons thinking "oh the unmodded base damage of this will improve my ability to delete things!"
If it has mods that they don't want I'm pretty sure they're throwing it in the reengineering device to reroll until they get the desired mods.
I just don't understand why base damage is being used as an argument on something that naturally comes with mods that affect its damage output.
The CLOSEST you can get to comparing damage that way is to take two weapons without any [DMG] modifiers at all. But then we have the variables caused by [CrtH] and [CrtD] that could skew results because of random crits. And then we have to consider Cat1 and Cat2 modifiers like items that either give +X Damage or +X Bonus Damage in a build, unless you're going in a shuttle with absolutely nothing to augment damage in.
So frankly... after all this... honestly it really doesn't matter who is right. Ok so maybe the base damage is about the same, but at the same time modifiers alter the damage output. Its not a binary thing here. Its not one or the other.
SO YOU BOTH CAN BE RIGHT!
Well I keep stating it because what I have said is true.
I am talking about BASE damage. The baseline damage on lockbox and crafted non set omnis is the same baseline damage as any other beam array.
That is just the way it is.
Talking about mods and "real world" use is just muddying the simple fact.
Turret base damage is not = to single cannon base damage.
That is the Wiki white version baseline damage for any single array. That includes non set omnis. Of course you can't get a white omni in the game... that isn't the point. The point is the damage is =.
Fleet Admiral XV 770 616
Allowing us to slot 8 crafted or lockbox omnis, does make single arrays pointless.
I have modified my stance. After looking at the numbers and reading what others have posted. Ya I don't see any issue with allowing multiple set omnis. As long as Cryptic continues gimping their base damage go too it. They won't be so good that they become the copy and paste meta build of the month weapons... still it gives people a bit of potential build variety. Weapons like the breen omni and Proton omni... sure it would be nice to be able to use those as a 3rd rear weapon. I agree that isn't game breaking... opens some options and perhaps Cryptic should do that. I am still however very much against unlocking of standard non set omnis. The trade for the zero baseline damage reduction on those weapons is that you can only slot one. That should remain the case.
Allowing us to slot 8 crafted or lockbox omnis, does make single arrays pointless.
On that I agree, even if the base damage was different because of one simple fact. Ability to keep firing, thus doing damage.
Even with the modifiers in place, there is one simple fact for a standard beam array. If you are not in its firing arc and it is not firing, it doesn't matter what its base damage or modified damage is.
Your damage is 0 if you are not in firing arc and thus not firing the weapon.
Something Omnis don't have to worry about because they have a full 360 firing arc. So even if they do less damage per shot than a beam array, they're doing more damage because they can fire when a standard beam array can't, and thus are able to deal damage.
Well I keep stating it because what I have said is true.
I am talking about BASE damage. The baseline damage on lockbox and crafted non set omnis is the same baseline damage as any other beam array.
That is just the way it is.
Talking about mods and "real world" use is just muddying the simple fact.
So that's not how that works.
If you want to say the base damage is the same, then okay fine. However it's irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. You're so hung up on whatever the base damage is you're missing the larger picture. Even if we want to say base damage is the same, the final damage number and outcome is NOT. Emphasis added there. Baseline damage is a fine thing to know but doesn't matter as much as the final outcome. Saying that beam arrays and crafted omnis are the same because their baseline damage is the same, is like saying that all MTG decks are the same because you start with 7 cards in your opening hand.
When determining which of them between a crafted omni and a beam array is going to do more damage you have to take into account mods because mods are just that, modifiers that change the final outcome and damage number. Even if we want to say for sake of discussion the baseline damage of arrays and crafted omnis is the same, their final damage output number is not. The baseline number is simply the starting point, not the end point. Baseline damage is what's modified to get the final damage number, with final damage being what matters in this instance.
Now for this, If you want to compare them 1v1, in a singular environment that's fine. However it's only going to give you a theoretical performance number that's only good for a controlled environment. It's not going to be valid in the field and real world. In theory yes, a crafted omni should be able to outdo a beam array due to their final damage being so similar, and the omni having the greater weapon arc. However in practice that's not what happens save in very VERY rare circumstances where there is much more going on to effect the final outcome than purely weapon arcs. In practical application we've seen time and time again that the crafted omni will always lose to the beam array even though the omni has greater field of fire. What should happen on paper isn't always what happens in reality.
That is the Wiki white version baseline damage for any single array. That includes non set omnis. Of course you can't get a white omni in the game... that isn't the point. The point is the damage is =.
Fleet Admiral XV 770 616
Allowing us to slot 8 crafted or lockbox omnis, does make single arrays pointless.
See above again, base damage is a fine number to know, but ultimately irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. Base damage only tells you what the original number was before modifications, not what the final outcome will be. Base damage is not final damage, and final damage is what you're actually going to receive in the field. What relevance does the line in italics have? This is about omnis, not turrets. Only things that are comparable between omnis and turrets is that they can both fire in a 360 degree arc, and both are energy weapons. Otherwise they're completely different.
Allowing us to slow 8 omnis is not going to make single arrays pointless, not even close. See above again, in theory yes that should be the case due to omnis having a greater field of fire. However in practical applications it's not what happens. In practical application the omni will almost always lose to an array. That's just the reality of things.
Now ultimately as I've said plenty of times now, I'm assuming that if omnis were unlocked, crafted omnis would have their damage reduced to bring them in line with set omnis, thus nullifying the base damage complaints. So still fail to see what the issue is aside from people just not liking the idea someone could theoretically have 8 omnis and it ruining their subjective immersion. If we're going to incorporate math and data into the arguments about why omnis should/shouldn't be unlocked then we need to be sure the math and data are valid and correct, otherwise it's useless.
My point still stands. Cannon users do not have to pick and choose which sets they utilize where as beam users do. If a polaron user running cannons wants to use all 3 polaron sets and slap on the 3 set turrets he can, beam users can't do that with omnis. Similarly if a cannon user wants to run 8 turrets he can, a beam user can't run 8 omnis. That is my issue, one has to pick and choose but the other doesn't. It grants an unfair advantage to cannons in that regard. Neither should be forced to pick and choose as both should be allowed to utilize all sets, or run 8 copies if they wish.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
I have already shown you that if you parse removing all other factors... crafted and lockbox omnis are no different from a single array. That is just a fact. Sorry. Yes you can have one more potential [dmg] mod. So what. One [dmg] mod is NOT as good as a [arc] mod.
Unlock reduced damage set omnis... ya you know I have said I agree. After looking at the numbers it wouldn't break anything. Its not going to be an insta new meta change. It might open a few build options for people... and it might make things a bit less confusing. I'm sure some new players are confused as to why they can't slot their new proton or breen omni. Sure unlock the sets... they have the reduced base damage that would make them = in reduction to turrets. (or close enough anyway).
Non set omnis... are Single arrays with one different mod. No matter what you want to claim that is just the reality of the games design. Unlocking non set omnis one ups single arrays completely. Then they do become the meta. At that point ships like the Lexington, Parliament, California, Leg Excel... become some of the best meta platforms running 4 crafted omnis in the back... with, the rep shiny beams in the front... maybe a Terran DHC to proc mixed arm (instead of a turret). Those ships already do well... they don't need a massive damage buff for 3 of their aft slots.
That is not at all what happens. The Parliament, with the addition of isomags, is better but in no way meta, and fully unlocking Omnis won't change the issues it has with BOff seating. You aren't making beams more attractive than cannons for the Lexington, or even coming close to displacing ships like the Dhailkina, the new Atlantis Temporal Destroyer, the Legendary Avenger, The Vaadwaur Juggernaut, the fleet version of the Bozeman Intel Heavy Frigate, or a continuing list of ships that literally won't care about additional Omni arrays, and will still be considerably better than an all Omni build. 4/4 ships will get stronger for beams, but will still lag behind the 5/3 and 5/2/1 ships that are now top of the heap, and trying to push the Parliament, Legendary Excelsior, and California as boogeymen is ridiculous. Those are expensive premium lootbox and legendary ships with their own design flaws, of which the 4/4 weapons are only a part. The Lexington is already a great ship, available from the c-store vs those premium ships, and would remain a flexible, powerful platform, with a small bump depending on the build.
Even now, if you're seriously chasing beam dps, you're tossing aside single arrays for dual beam banks, with only specialty arrays finding a place on builds. Single arrays reign in one area only, drawing threat for tanking. Otherwise, you're building for looks, or to have fun, or just because it's what you want to do, all of which are legitimate, and none of which would be changed by unlocking Omnis.
I'll point out, that if we're only unlocking set Omnis, plasma still only has one set omni, which is stuck in the lobi store.
And I'll finish with... Omnis are not a guaranteed upgrade over single arrays. In rear weapon slots where they can shoot forward, yes, but in forward slots, there is little if any advantage over a regular single array. The only way the far more expensive Omnis replace those beams is if they actually generate a noticeable improvement, and this is where actual real world testing would have to take place. Maybe there are people that can't keep a 250 degree weapon on target, but as I've said before, if that's the case, I want them to have access to Omnis if they want them.
In short... Unlocking Omnis barely touches the meta if at all, and if you don't care about that, then why does it bother you? Play what you want either way.
Sure ok the MW 5 engi console 4/4 ships might not instantly become the best single array ships... Your argument is a bit flawed though. I mean you could run 4 DBB on them with 4 Omnis.
As for cannons... I know no one wants to hear it but CSV has been broken since Bort worked it over years ago. CSV really shouldn't be 3x as good as the next weapon skill, but that is the state of the game. If we were going to take a serious look at the games current state CSV really should be reworked. It is far too good, and has been for a long time.
I didn't overlook the ability to run 4 DBB + 4 Omni. That would better allow 4/4 ships to compete in the current era vs the 5/3 and 5/2/1 ships that now dominate, and don't really care about the current Omni restrictions. That only really matters though if you're chasing dps. And if you are chasing dps, single arrays were never a consideration in the first place. Reality is, if I wanted a great Miracle Worker ship for running beams, I'd pick up something like the Fleet version of the Gagarin, which is better than any of those ships except maybe the Lexington, because the Lex gets the little bit of Intel secondary, and a little bump from the Phaser Lance and Hanger Bay, effectively giving it ~9 weapons.
And CSV is the best firing mode in the game because it allows you to do triple damage IF you can keep 3 targets lined up for your cannons, and can actually fall off a bit as you move up to elite, where at the end of ISE you're almost always only going to have 1 target to shoot at a time. It's also very accessible, with its extender being freely available to anyone that has a "Klingon Recruit." At that point, you start seeing torpedo builds rise to power, since things live long enough for the torps to get there. Of course, the true dps king is the Thalaron Pulse, but that's its own can of worms.
Regular beam arrays fell out of fashion a long time ago. The reason I did my testing with AP like I did, is because that character runs a Fleet version of the Bozeman Heavy Intel Frigate, with 4 arrays up front, 2 Omnis in the back, and a torp front and back to get set bonuses. It's great now and then to relax in a ship that can still do good damage without having to worry about firing arcs, and if Omnis were unlocked, I wouldn't change the build. Omnis don't offer enough for me to change the weapons on it, when it already has no problem staying on target. Even my Lexington, which runs 4 DBB up front with 2 Omnis, 1 Turret, and 1 torp in the back, everything that's on there is already playing its part in the build. If Omnis were unlocked, I might replace the torpedo with another Omni, but probably not. It would be an expensive addition to a build that's already doing more than good enough, and I have other ships that are better suited for chasing big numbers, if thats what I want to do.
If you want to experience the horror you so dread, then pick up the Atlantis Temporal Destroyer, throw in a decent experimental weapon, and fly around with 5 arrays up front, and 2 Omnis in back. It will get you exceptionally close to the experience, on a platform that is excellent for Beam Overload. You'll even get a pretty good Starship Trait into the bargain. There are actually quite a few 5/1/1, 4/2, and 5/2/1 ships at this point, the Atlantis is just easy to point to.
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Well... we do have one oddball Omni, the Morphogenic Polaron. Its both an Omni Beam and a Turret. Depending on the firing mode you use, it shifts to match. May start out firing bolts, but if you use FAW, it becomes a beam.
Interesting.
I am a navy vet. Every command in the navy, whether a training command, an air base, an air wing, or a ship, has its own insignia, but that is not incorporated into most, if any, uniforms. We might have sewn a ship patch on our work coveralls, and when out to sea we could wear a lot of stuff that we would not wear in port or for any official things.
If you have seen pictures of a carrier flight deck you may have noticed people wearing different colored shirts. Well, I was not part of the air wing, but I did have a job involving ordnance, and that is a red shirt (yes, I know...). So there were many days that we would just wear navy-issue coveralls and our red shirts underneath with a metal rank pin on the collar of the red shirt. If someone had a ship patch on their coveralls no one would care.
When it came to dress uniforms, though, we did wear a command patch. Not the ship or squadron symbol, just a small patch worn at the top of our sleeve with the name of our command on it. A squadron or ship name. U.S.S. Enterpise, for example.
So I was on The U.S.S. Ranger.
A couple of squadrons that joined us when we went out to sea were the Bounty Hunters and the Wolfpack.
Every command with its own insignia.
So it makes some sense for each ship to have a unique logo, and the stylized delta doesn't seem to serve any real purpose other than to try and make things look good on TV. If they just wanted a "job marker" they could have done that in a number of siimple ways. Just sew it on the uniform somewhere (chest, above the rank stripes, wherever), place it on a square, rectangular, or round badge (no need for the stylized delta), etc.
The overall uniform marks them as Starfleet. The badge is just extra. I like the idea of every ship having its own badge, and there is some sense that future Enterprises might use some variation of the classic ship symbol.
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I don't doubt that you ran the patrol and produced the results you claim. However I would appreciate seeing an actual parse file for this stuff so I can not only verify but also compare to. I can see the relative crit rate of both weapons, singular hits and so on. There is more data that can be revealed by a parse than simply us reading a final number.
Now with that in mind, the test you produced here is invalid for a number of reasons. You contaminated your results before you ever started by use of the pen mod and use of the Experimental Array before you ever started. First up, you're comparing a hybridized beam that can pop a plasma or disruptor proc on a target diluting the potential proc of the disruptor resistance debuff on the Romulan beam. In addition it's getting a 2% cat2 boost in its damage straight out of the gate further diluting the results and artificially inflating the numbers for the beam array. This beam is also not draining as much power which further dilutes the waters in terms of this test making it unreliable as the omni would then benefit from extra power it's not going to have if you're doing a 1 to 1 test like you've described wanting to do.
On the opposite side of the coin, the omni also has a pen mod present on it which is equivalent to an already existing disruptor proc, thus allowing you to double dip on the damage to inflate the numbers of the omni. Thus this omni is essentially getting twice the armor bypass of the array.
If you're wanting to do a single weapon comparison as you've said of crafted omni vs beam array, you'll want to use crafted/standard array and crafted omni. In this case standard disruptor vs standard disruptor omni. You'll also want to make sure the mods are as close as possible. For example, the beam array is [crtd/dmg] [dmgx4] and the omni is [crtd/dmg] [dmgx3] [arc]. Thus there is no potential double dipping going on for armor bypassing. To get your theoretical one to one numbers you would run the test twice. First run, put the array in the first position so it can draw the most amount of power, then the omni in another slot and run the test. Second run, swap their positions so now the omni is in the lead and the array is in the other slot.
Then if you want to get your actual real world numbers, you'll want to run the arrays and omnis in a way that people will actually use them. In other words you'll want to put the array up front and omni in the back and run the test with a full setup. For example, beam array first slot on the forward arc, omni first slot on the rear arc. For the second test you will swap the omni and beam array positions. Thus you have real world data and eliminated power draw from the equation. Test can be repeated with a set omni in place of the crafted so you have the full picture.
Now with all of that said, even with extra attacks in your own numbers, the omni STILL couldn't outdo the array which was the point. In a real world situation the array will ALWAYS outdo the omni if both of them are firing and hitting a target. The only way the omni ever surpasses the array is if the array is disabled or outright stops firing. Even then it will need time to catch up to and surpass the array.
Lastly again the entire point is that beam users shouldn't be denied the use of space sets when cannon users are not. A cannon user for polaron as mentioned before can slot the morphogenic weapon, chronometric turret, and inhibiting turret and use all 3 sets. Beam users can't do that, it's either one set or the other. The only way to use all 3 sets is mix cannons with beams which beam users generally don't want to do unless they're going mixed armament build. Point being it's an arbitrary restriction that needs to go as it has no real value today. As a final final thought, I've always assumed crafted omnis would be nerfed to make them in line with set omnis, thus the omni damage is normalized and crafted omnis are no longer an outlier. Folks can mix and match as they please. Beam users can stick to full beam setups and not have to mix in turrets, just like cannon users are free to utilize all 3 sets. That is the rub.
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Really though you want results do your own math run your own tests.
The tool tip does not lie no matter what you want to claim. Crafted omni beams have the same base damage as single arrays. This IS NOT Debatable. It is a fact.
Run what ever test run you want. However as I stated YES if you load 8 weapons that are all drawing power that is going to make it very hard to compare. So your options are to run something like reroute power or exceed rated limits to make power draw a non issue. OR use the only beam in the game that draws no power at all (The Rom Experimental) which is the route I choose for my little test. It confirmed that the tool tip does not lie at all. Omni and Single arrays are identical.
For what its worth on the idea of unlocking set omni beams... I don't really care much on that frankly. My main concern is omnis in general as crafted omnis trade nothing but one mod for 360 degrees of fire. As for an advantage over Cannons cause cannon users can slot multiple sets... come on now. Don't be disingenuous, no one currently does that for any real Meta style build cause Turrets suck. We only slot turrets cause there is no other choice. We run turrets cause we want to use DHC... not because turrets are actually good. Really if you have 3 rear slots, as long as you have a MW seat of some kind chances are your putting an omni back there for mixed arm synergy or on the top end the collected arm trait from the shrike. No one runs 4 turrets. lol
"Non-set Omnis have the same base damage as Beam Arrays (200), while set Omnis have have reduced base damage (176), or lower in the case of a Support Omni. Support Omnis are not considered separate from normal ones in terms of equip limits."
There's another wiki entry somewhere that has a slightly different base damage amount, but in either case they say a Crafted Omni has the same base as a normal beam array, Set Omnis get an @12% damage reduction, and Support Omnis (Competitive Rep) get even more reduction.
Since the Crafted/Non-set limit is already 1 and most people are talking about Set limits, I think they should stay as is. With the loss of a damage mod (for ARC), Set omnis are about 15% reduced. So if set omnis were increased to 2 or more, they should probably receive a base damage reduction of about 22% (25% taking the mod loss into account). That would make them viable without being OP.
As Husanakx said, any actual DPS builds are likely only using rear slots for specific set unlocks that match various DPS traits. I don't think there's much use of 'set' Omnis to complete power builds. They're mostly for people going for themes or just fooling around with the gear they have.
However after looking further into the various Omnis that have been available and how they can be used, I can see that they can't really just remove all restrictions without at least updating the base damages or creating some sort of stacking penalty.
Just because set omnis are of more use to theme builds than to meta DPS builds does not mean that people wanting to do theme builds should be discriminated against. And it has been proven during that recent flag error that having at least two set omnis is not OP, in fact it has no discernable DPS difference from the one & one nonsense that is currently the rule.
Simplifying the rule to ANY TWO omnis would have nothing but good effects since it makes no difference mechanically and it would eliminate a lot of the confusion that newer players face when they start using omnis. Going beyond two might be problematic (I have not done that math so I dont know for sure), but that is a whole different beast than the already proven in regular gameplay "any two".
The ideal though would be at least "any three" if they can do it without it contributing to power creep, it is unlikely that someone would be running more than three weapon/console sets on the same ship, and the KCB is available if someone wants a 360 beam in all four rear slots (though how they would avoid a torpedo back there with three sets mounted is something of a mystery).
To be fair. I don't think it would be game breaking IF they unlocked set omnis completely. I mean for the most part you would be gimping yourself as most sets suck. As long as it remains 1 real Omni only. The crafted omnis are full damage beams... and limiting them to one per ship is the only option if we want single arrays to exist.
Having said that some form of restriction should still be in play on sets anyway. It might be complicated and I'm not sure the engine can be made to conform... but maybe the logical answer is.
1 Crafted/lockbox non set omni.
As many set omnis as you can slot in AFT only slots.
This would keep single arrays from being essentially replaced by 360 single arrays. While also not having to nerf the damage on the lockbox and crafted omnis we already have in the game. It should also keep the set stuff within reason as well... most of the sets are already damage reduced (or double reduced in the case of the support weapons). IMO it would just add some build options. IMO most meta builds are probably still going to use one of the traits and or skills that buffs dmg based on weapon type use. (meaning people will still slot a turret with their beams for buffs) However it would also allow people to put 3 omnis in the back of a destroyer if that is what they really want to do. I mean the extra power draw is probably going to cost them DPS... but if it makes them happy ok. The main issue I would have is if they simply unlocked the actual full damage omnis. We don't need 3 full dmg omnis in the back of destoryer and battle cruiser type ships.
Read what I've said again but slower. Regardless of whatever you want to credit as the cause, the final damage value of an omni is NOT the same as an array. 1618 =/= 1571. THAT is what's not debatable. If you're seriously going to sit here and say those two numbers are the same then there's nothing more anyone can say as you're choosing to ignore reality at that point.
See above again, you only got the result you did because you tried to rig the test to get a specific outcome you wanted to be true. If you really wanted to do a legit test you would've used a standard disruptor beam array and standard omni and either had pen on both of them, or left the pen off entirely. You let one of them double dip but not the other which is going throw the numbers off dramatically.
See also what I said before if power draw is a concern. Do one test as normal with the array in slot 1 and the omni in the first aft slot and parse. Then swap the positions of the weapons so now the omni is in slot 1 and the array in the first aft slot, and parse again. You've then eliminated the power draw factor as you'll have data for both of them draining no power, and again with reduced power, thus both sides are covered. You're severely overthinking this dude.
If you don't care as much as you say about unlocking omnis or certain omnis, why have you protested so hard? I legit have to ask. Assuming they were unlocked the assumption has been crafted omnis being reduced in damage to match the set omnis reduced damage, so again what's the problem since all omnis are on equal ground at that point?
For the part in bold, you really need to take a step back and read what is being said to you before you start throwing accusations of being disingenuous. Another thing, not everyone cares about "meta" builds and not everyone plays like you, or even plays like me. I don't care whatever flavor of the month meta favors right now, there are other builds out there and ways to play besides meta. As is right now, if I wanted to use polarons for a beam build and I wanted to call on all 3 sets that exist current which are morphogenic, chronometric and inhibiting, I can't use all 3 omnis and complete all 3 sets. I'm forced to either use 2 turrets or be locked out of 2 of the complete sets. Cannon users have no such restrictions and can use all 3 set turrets where as beam users can't use all 3 set omnis. As a beam user I either have to incorporate 2 turrets that I have no desire to run, or get locked out of 2 sets I shouldn't be getting locked out of. THAT is the issue and it shouldn't be happening. If I want to run beams I should be able to use all beams and not have to incorporate 2 turrets into the build, that's just foolish.
Regardless of whether it's "meta" or not, beam users shouldn't have to pick and choose like that when cannon users can freely use all 3 sets with no issue. I don't know how many times I can say this or point it out, there are other valid build styles and playstyles aside from whatever flavor of the month is "meta". Not everyone cares about that junk, me being one of them. If you like meta stuff and want to stick to meta, you do you dude.
If I'm running polaron and I'm slotting those 2 turrets it's got nothing to do with miracle worker seating or using mixed armament synergy, but because it's either use those turrets or get locked out of set bonuses, which is a choice people shouldn't have to make. Lastly, simply because it's not something YOU would do doesn't make it any less of an option. You're one person with one preferred style of build and your way of playing isn't the only way of playing. Simply because something isn't "meta" doesn't make it bad. Simply because something isn't "meta" doesn't mean people shouldn't have the option. If you don't like it don't run it. Simple as that. I do not care about mixed armament builds, not my cup of tea. Point is that if I want to run all 3 set omnis I should be allowed to do it, especially since cannon users can run all 3 turrets with no issues. It's an artificial disparity and discriminatory against beam users as much as I hate to use that word in a video game.
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Your assertion that 1618 and 1571 is a difference worth even talking about is frankly silly. Yes we all know why that is the non omni has one extra damage mod. We have been over this base damage is identical. That is as = as anything gets in this game. With its dirty database tables.
As for my test being skued. It proves my point... eliminate as many factors as you can and a crafted or lockbox omni is just a single array. It is no different in terms of BASE damage. That is a simple fact that no matter how much you rehash it is still a fact.
Your right I didn't bother to go through all my toons looking for a fully upgraded romulan advance weapon, cause frankly I rarely use that thing. I had it on that toon so I ran a quick test removing the power drain issues. Romulan advance weapon had 20% more crtd and 2% bonus damage from a T6 rep bonus. Ombi got a PEN mod. Frankly that is pretty much =. The base damages are basically =... and a according to my parse if I did my best to ensure they got the same number of attacks the actual DPS recorded was with in margin of error. I don't really care enough to go buy or craft another omni to run a non pen test. I mean its stupid test to run anyway when I already know the answer. Tool tip data, years of parses... omni beams (non set) are just arrays with one less mod... that is never out of arc.
As to why I care if I say I don't care about set omnis. Cause read what I have posted. Set omnis PAY for their [arc] mods. They have reduced base damage. I don't think it would be game breaking to allow people to slot those aft only. I do no believe people should be allowed to slot more then one in a fore weapon slot... I don't believe anyone should be able to slot more then one lockbox/crafted non set omni, as they don't pay a price for their arc. (which is balanced in the game with a 1 per ship restriction)
Also stop worry about what Cannon users COULD do. No cannon users run multiple turrets to enable set bonuses. It doesn't happen cause turret damage is so bad you run as few of them as required as a general rule. The power drain on a turret removes more DPS then you gain from the turret itself.
If the developers decide to simply unlock all omnis. Then beam arrays are as obsolete as single cannons. Sure people will still run set weapons like the terran, disco, lukari beams cause they do more damage. Actual base model arrays though? No you would be stupid to not run a omni instead... if you could slot 3 or 4 or them.
As for your test being skewed, it proves something alright but what it proves is that you tried to rig the outcome in your favor to prove me wrong and you STILL proved yourself wrong about omnis potentially being able to outdo arrays. Your own data showed that even if you let the omni double dip on armor bypass, and it fired more often, and had extra power to draw from, it still CAN'T outdo a beam array. You tried every way in the world to rig the test and still came up short.
The only reason your "test" was in the margin of error is because you tried to rig the test and fabricate evidence to make it appear omnis and arrays are closer in damage than they actually are. In other words you tried to deceive people into thinking the gap between them is less than it really is and it still backfired on you. It's the same concept as people on social media who chop up videos to make it looks like someone said something they never actually did. By your own admission you say you already know the answer and it's a stupid test to run, and you deliberately used those weapons to "eliminate power drain issues" and such, why should I or anyone else trust your test? All you've done is ensured I'm going to take whatever data you produce and throw it out because it can't be trusted. I would encourage others to do the same too. If the damage of crafted omnis and arrays was as close as you wanted us to believe, you wouldn't have needed to try and rig the outcome. You would have ran the test and let the data speak for itself. But instead you got caught with your hand in the proverbial cookie jar.
And for the millionth time you dodge the question. Who is hurt or harmed if I'm able to slot 8 omnis on a ship? How are you negatively effected by it? Are you suddenly not able to slot beam arrays anymore? How are you being negatively effected by it? Why should their ability to slot stuff be restricted because you don't like it? Once again assuming omnis were unlocked and people could run 8 of them, I've assumed from the start that crafted omnis would be nerfed to bring them in line with set omnis thus they're "paying" for that arc mod. So again what's the issue?
See again, I've assumed crafted omnis would be brought in line with set omnis and their damage reduced. So what exactly is the problem again? If the goal is to do as much damage as possible then going with pure omnis is the objectively inferior option and you're leaving damage on the table you don't need to be leaving. As asked above if omnis are unlocked, do you suddenly lose the ability to slot arrays, no of course you don't. Simply because an option exists doesn't mean you have to do it.
I saved this part for last because it gets back to the heart of the original issue. Point blank dude you have no idea what you're talking about. Saying that "no cannon user runs multiple turrets to enable set bonuses" is like saying that beam users don't run multiple set beams to take enable set bonuses. It's an objectively false statement as plenty of people run various items to utilize multiple set bonuses all the time. If I'm running antiproton as my energy type on my tank, I'm going to be running ba'ul 3 piece for the set bonuses, sometimes I will use the 2 piece radiant set from Iconian rep, and the 2 piece Temporal Defense set. Assuming I call on all 3 sets, that's 3 different set weapons that I'm using for my tank. If I'm willing to use 3 set weapons to activate multiple bonuses using beams, why would cannons suddenly be different? Simply because you personally wouldn't do it for cannons doesn't mean other people wouldn't. Your way of playing and building is not the only way.
Now as I said about this getting back to the heart of the issue. My issue is that in many cases as a beam user if I want to utilize certain weapon sets, I'm forced to either slot a turret or be locked out of multiple sets with polaron being the prime example. If I want to use the chronometric, morphogenic, and inhibiting sets, as a beam user I'm forced to either slot 2 turrets to activate those sets, or be locked out of them. Cannon users don't have to make that choice, and THAT is my issue. I don't care if it's not meta to use all 3 of those sets or if it bothers you that I cite that as my concern. Bottom line is beam users are restricted in an arbitrary way where cannon users aren't. If cannon users don't have to pick and choose which of those 3 sets to use and can use all 3 of their turrets, I should be able to use all 3 of my omnis. Plain as day.
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I am talking about the BASELINE damage of the weapons. The base damage is =. That is a fact. Non Set omni beams are single arrays with extended arc. There is zero difference in their base line damage.
Yes omnis have a [arc] mod. Who cares. The base damage is the same. Lets get in the weeds... and argue about [dmg] vs [crtd] vs [arc] vs [pen]. Its not relevant. The base damage of the weapons is the same.
Your argument is faulty. So we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. I know where the devs stand, so this argument really doesn't matter. Cryptic choose when they added omnis to the game... to not reduce their damage as they would with turrets, instead they restricted them to 1 per ship. Cryptic as long as I remember have been doing everything they can to try and get people to not just run one weapon type. They didn't want omnis to become people running around with 8 of them. Turrets annoyed them as well so they nerfed procs. Cryptic isn't going to decide now to unlock omnis. I doubt DECA does either.
As for sets, many omni-containing sets don't even have turrets as an (underwhelming) fallback option (in fact, three out of the four recent event sets containing a ship weapon ONLY had omnis as the energy weapon) which effectively locks that set out completely if you use an omni from another set to get that other set's top bonus (usually for theme purposes since the top spot is almost inevitably the only "signature" power and the lower ones rather generic/invisible).
You're free to think it's faulty even though it's not. And no you don't know where the devs stand until they specifically say one way or another. As I've said several times now, that's why I even said to take the previous explanation I was given with a grain of salt as it may not be accurate anymore. Dev that gave me that explanation is no longer with the studio. Assuming the explanation I was given is still accurate (again a big IF), then the reason they're limited is issues with hardpoints. If you want to speculate why they're still limited then by all means.
However the whole "didn't want people running just one type of weapon" thing I'm calling shenanigans on. Look no further than all turret builds, all beam array builds, and modern torp only builds as prime examples. And no procs on weapons weren't nerfed purely because of turrets. You have things like kemocite, coalition disruptors and similar items to thank for that stuff. Certain procs were causing major calculation issues when they were allowed to proc multiple times per cycle and would stack to ridiculous levels. In some instances when I helped test certain abilities I saw as much as a -250 across the board on damage resists thanks to coalition disruptors and some other stuff. That is why proc rates were limited and reined in.
Now we can debate whether or not they'll actually unlock omnis, maybe they will, maybe they won't. However I still stand by my assertion they need to be unlocked to be on equal footing with cannons. It's ridiculous that cannon users don't have to pick and choose which sets they use but beam users do. It's also ridiculous that cannon users can have an all turrets build but beam users can't have an all omnis build. Doesn't matter if they're "meta" or if it's a smart thing to do or not. If one has the option, both should have it.
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Honestly I don't know why some are so dead set on saying "they are the same" on base damage when at the end of the day modifiers are going to change the damage output. The ONLY WAY to say for ABSLOUTE sure that they would be the same is to compare two WHITE quality weapons. Which is impossible as there are no white quality Omnis.
Even CrtH mods will affect the damage output of an Omni Beam because of the higher chance to crit. And that is not taking into account the player's own stats.
Base damage is base damage, but the fact remains there are things ON TOP of that influencing the damage output. To me this whole "base damage" argument is moot because of that alone. I may not be a top tier DPSer, but I doubt anyone is looking at weapons thinking "oh the unmodded base damage of this will improve my ability to delete things!"
If it has mods that they don't want I'm pretty sure they're throwing it in the reengineering device to reroll until they get the desired mods.
I just don't understand why base damage is being used as an argument on something that naturally comes with mods that affect its damage output.
The CLOSEST you can get to comparing damage that way is to take two weapons without any [DMG] modifiers at all. But then we have the variables caused by [CrtH] and [CrtD] that could skew results because of random crits. And then we have to consider Cat1 and Cat2 modifiers like items that either give +X Damage or +X Bonus Damage in a build, unless you're going in a shuttle with absolutely nothing to augment damage in.
So frankly... after all this... honestly it really doesn't matter who is right. Ok so maybe the base damage is about the same, but at the same time modifiers alter the damage output. Its not a binary thing here. Its not one or the other.
SO YOU BOTH CAN BE RIGHT!
That is a good point. The devs have seemed to forget not everyone uses beams. I don't know if it was a choice to not further buff cannons which at least with CSV are still king. My feeling is it was more an artifact of staffing changes. Things like the protostar set seemed like a bit of an oversight.
Well I keep stating it because what I have said is true.
I am talking about BASE damage. The baseline damage on lockbox and crafted non set omnis is the same baseline damage as any other beam array.
That is just the way it is.
Talking about mods and "real world" use is just muddying the simple fact.
Turret base damage is not = to single cannon base damage.
For what wiki things are worth... https://sto.fandom.com/wiki/Beam_Array
That is the Wiki white version baseline damage for any single array. That includes non set omnis. Of course you can't get a white omni in the game... that isn't the point. The point is the damage is =.
Fleet Admiral XV 770 616
Allowing us to slot 8 crafted or lockbox omnis, does make single arrays pointless.
I have modified my stance. After looking at the numbers and reading what others have posted. Ya I don't see any issue with allowing multiple set omnis. As long as Cryptic continues gimping their base damage go too it. They won't be so good that they become the copy and paste meta build of the month weapons... still it gives people a bit of potential build variety. Weapons like the breen omni and Proton omni... sure it would be nice to be able to use those as a 3rd rear weapon. I agree that isn't game breaking... opens some options and perhaps Cryptic should do that. I am still however very much against unlocking of standard non set omnis. The trade for the zero baseline damage reduction on those weapons is that you can only slot one. That should remain the case.
On that I agree, even if the base damage was different because of one simple fact.
Ability to keep firing, thus doing damage.
Even with the modifiers in place, there is one simple fact for a standard beam array. If you are not in its firing arc and it is not firing, it doesn't matter what its base damage or modified damage is.
Your damage is 0 if you are not in firing arc and thus not firing the weapon.
Something Omnis don't have to worry about because they have a full 360 firing arc. So even if they do less damage per shot than a beam array, they're doing more damage because they can fire when a standard beam array can't, and thus are able to deal damage.
If you want to say the base damage is the same, then okay fine. However it's irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. You're so hung up on whatever the base damage is you're missing the larger picture. Even if we want to say base damage is the same, the final damage number and outcome is NOT. Emphasis added there. Baseline damage is a fine thing to know but doesn't matter as much as the final outcome. Saying that beam arrays and crafted omnis are the same because their baseline damage is the same, is like saying that all MTG decks are the same because you start with 7 cards in your opening hand.
When determining which of them between a crafted omni and a beam array is going to do more damage you have to take into account mods because mods are just that, modifiers that change the final outcome and damage number. Even if we want to say for sake of discussion the baseline damage of arrays and crafted omnis is the same, their final damage output number is not. The baseline number is simply the starting point, not the end point. Baseline damage is what's modified to get the final damage number, with final damage being what matters in this instance.
Now for this, If you want to compare them 1v1, in a singular environment that's fine. However it's only going to give you a theoretical performance number that's only good for a controlled environment. It's not going to be valid in the field and real world. In theory yes, a crafted omni should be able to outdo a beam array due to their final damage being so similar, and the omni having the greater weapon arc. However in practice that's not what happens save in very VERY rare circumstances where there is much more going on to effect the final outcome than purely weapon arcs. In practical application we've seen time and time again that the crafted omni will always lose to the beam array even though the omni has greater field of fire. What should happen on paper isn't always what happens in reality.
See above again, base damage is a fine number to know, but ultimately irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. Base damage only tells you what the original number was before modifications, not what the final outcome will be. Base damage is not final damage, and final damage is what you're actually going to receive in the field. What relevance does the line in italics have? This is about omnis, not turrets. Only things that are comparable between omnis and turrets is that they can both fire in a 360 degree arc, and both are energy weapons. Otherwise they're completely different.
Allowing us to slow 8 omnis is not going to make single arrays pointless, not even close. See above again, in theory yes that should be the case due to omnis having a greater field of fire. However in practical applications it's not what happens. In practical application the omni will almost always lose to an array. That's just the reality of things.
Now ultimately as I've said plenty of times now, I'm assuming that if omnis were unlocked, crafted omnis would have their damage reduced to bring them in line with set omnis, thus nullifying the base damage complaints. So still fail to see what the issue is aside from people just not liking the idea someone could theoretically have 8 omnis and it ruining their subjective immersion. If we're going to incorporate math and data into the arguments about why omnis should/shouldn't be unlocked then we need to be sure the math and data are valid and correct, otherwise it's useless.
My point still stands. Cannon users do not have to pick and choose which sets they utilize where as beam users do. If a polaron user running cannons wants to use all 3 polaron sets and slap on the 3 set turrets he can, beam users can't do that with omnis. Similarly if a cannon user wants to run 8 turrets he can, a beam user can't run 8 omnis. That is my issue, one has to pick and choose but the other doesn't. It grants an unfair advantage to cannons in that regard. Neither should be forced to pick and choose as both should be allowed to utilize all sets, or run 8 copies if they wish.
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Unlock reduced damage set omnis... ya you know I have said I agree. After looking at the numbers it wouldn't break anything. Its not going to be an insta new meta change. It might open a few build options for people... and it might make things a bit less confusing. I'm sure some new players are confused as to why they can't slot their new proton or breen omni. Sure unlock the sets... they have the reduced base damage that would make them = in reduction to turrets. (or close enough anyway).
Non set omnis... are Single arrays with one different mod. No matter what you want to claim that is just the reality of the games design. Unlocking non set omnis one ups single arrays completely. Then they do become the meta. At that point ships like the Lexington, Parliament, California, Leg Excel... become some of the best meta platforms running 4 crafted omnis in the back... with, the rep shiny beams in the front... maybe a Terran DHC to proc mixed arm (instead of a turret). Those ships already do well... they don't need a massive damage buff for 3 of their aft slots.
Even now, if you're seriously chasing beam dps, you're tossing aside single arrays for dual beam banks, with only specialty arrays finding a place on builds. Single arrays reign in one area only, drawing threat for tanking. Otherwise, you're building for looks, or to have fun, or just because it's what you want to do, all of which are legitimate, and none of which would be changed by unlocking Omnis.
I'll point out, that if we're only unlocking set Omnis, plasma still only has one set omni, which is stuck in the lobi store.
And I'll finish with... Omnis are not a guaranteed upgrade over single arrays. In rear weapon slots where they can shoot forward, yes, but in forward slots, there is little if any advantage over a regular single array. The only way the far more expensive Omnis replace those beams is if they actually generate a noticeable improvement, and this is where actual real world testing would have to take place. Maybe there are people that can't keep a 250 degree weapon on target, but as I've said before, if that's the case, I want them to have access to Omnis if they want them.
In short... Unlocking Omnis barely touches the meta if at all, and if you don't care about that, then why does it bother you? Play what you want either way.
As for cannons... I know no one wants to hear it but CSV has been broken since Bort worked it over years ago. CSV really shouldn't be 3x as good as the next weapon skill, but that is the state of the game. If we were going to take a serious look at the games current state CSV really should be reworked. It is far too good, and has been for a long time.
And CSV is the best firing mode in the game because it allows you to do triple damage IF you can keep 3 targets lined up for your cannons, and can actually fall off a bit as you move up to elite, where at the end of ISE you're almost always only going to have 1 target to shoot at a time. It's also very accessible, with its extender being freely available to anyone that has a "Klingon Recruit." At that point, you start seeing torpedo builds rise to power, since things live long enough for the torps to get there. Of course, the true dps king is the Thalaron Pulse, but that's its own can of worms.
Regular beam arrays fell out of fashion a long time ago. The reason I did my testing with AP like I did, is because that character runs a Fleet version of the Bozeman Heavy Intel Frigate, with 4 arrays up front, 2 Omnis in the back, and a torp front and back to get set bonuses. It's great now and then to relax in a ship that can still do good damage without having to worry about firing arcs, and if Omnis were unlocked, I wouldn't change the build. Omnis don't offer enough for me to change the weapons on it, when it already has no problem staying on target. Even my Lexington, which runs 4 DBB up front with 2 Omnis, 1 Turret, and 1 torp in the back, everything that's on there is already playing its part in the build. If Omnis were unlocked, I might replace the torpedo with another Omni, but probably not. It would be an expensive addition to a build that's already doing more than good enough, and I have other ships that are better suited for chasing big numbers, if thats what I want to do.
If you want to experience the horror you so dread, then pick up the Atlantis Temporal Destroyer, throw in a decent experimental weapon, and fly around with 5 arrays up front, and 2 Omnis in back. It will get you exceptionally close to the experience, on a platform that is excellent for Beam Overload. You'll even get a pretty good Starship Trait into the bargain. There are actually quite a few 5/1/1, 4/2, and 5/2/1 ships at this point, the Atlantis is just easy to point to.