Well, we basically have T7. They're just not called that.
The article doesn't say how we get this unlock, but I fear the worst.
Well... the problem with T7 is that it would require a new mechanic or something ON TOP of what T6 has, and guess what else? Making brand new variants of all our ships so that we can still fly our preferred hull designs. So you know all those variants of the Sovereign we have? Well now you gotta design a BRAND NEW ONE with all the bells and whistles. And we still don't have everything with a T6 variant yet.
By going the T6X Upgrade route, we can keep upgrading our ships without them becoming obsolete by a "tier upgrade".
Overall this is a minor thing really. One console and One trait slot. Won't completely obsolete anything, and opens up more flexibility in builds.
I'm drooling over the idea of 3 Unis on the USS Hornet. (MW DSC Connie)
As for HOW it works... I predict its just expanding the current T6X token to be usable on any ship twice rather than once. Makes sense to me honestly.
I'm considering 8 sci consoles on the Capella (WM Legendary Intrepid)
The advice isn't "go find another game", Val - it's "play more than just the one game." I take the occasional break from, well, pretty much every franchise game I've played (about to take another dive into Mass Effect, just because, and I usually take a break from STO during the Winter Event). Burnout is a real thing, and sometimes when you feel like you've squeezed something dry, that means you need to take a little while away from it until you remember what about it is fun.
Ok, can we stop with the personal sniping. Again. And please, stay on topic. Thank you.
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Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
Agreed adding unique stupid abilities is not the way.
My suggestion is they mainly focus on giving them more standard skills... things that do have counters. Gravity wells, Tykens, Eject warp plasma. Hell for that matter just giving them attack patterns might be a good way to go. Let those borg spheres spam Beta, let the Cubes have Delta.
However, how reasonably would the expactation be that any of these abilities would be used in a somewhat coherent manner with enemies actually challenging your mettle as opposed to randomly spamming it? AI is difficult, and STO is not the master of it. So you will just have random annoyances. Granted, they could be turned up to 9000 by spamming them left, right, and center, but just upping the numbers usually doesn't make for more gameplay fun. (Although some very min-maxy build types may struggle depending on how they annoy.)
And yeah, special abilities in the likes of the Mokai - please don't.
But as for T6-X2 - do not color me too surprised. Players who reached the end need something to go for, and I am also not against the possibility of combining some more star traits, after all, there are dozens of them, many never to be used. Doesn't mean I am that thrilled about it, but something along those lines was to be expected.
I just hope that (a) same tokens are going to be used (I consider that likely but uncertain), (b) it's account unlocks again (very probable), (c) T5-X2 will be a thing (nobody's gonna make my Ferasan part with his Dyson Destroyer - yeah, a TRIBBLE ship but I like it).
I think you solve that by just letting the NPCs have all their skill at global cool down. That would make for 100% uptime on patterns like beta. 30s per GW out of a cube... I don't think you to worry much about AI at that point. Its just puts them in the same situation players are in now... bind it all to space bar cause lets be honest anything important is up 100% of the time anyway. Long ago Cryptic power creeped the idea of timing anything all that much. NPCs suffer from arc and cool down issues... I would say just give them 360 degree arc on all their skills and min cool down.
As much as people don't want "annoyance" I mean what is better NPCs that actually do actively hit sub nukes, impulse bursts and actually do a bit of dmg with transport warheads. OR NPCs that are just dumb zero threat soaks with 50m hit points a piece. To each their own I guess.
If it was up to me (its not of course) I would make the current advance mode Normal. The current Elite Advance and then take current E mode and give the NPCs an ability upgrade. Then players could easily choose. Normal still being easy as advance really isn't hard anymore with all the creep... an advance mode that can be failed and is somewhat challenging if your new to the content. Then an actual real E mode where the NPCs might actually respawn even a good player now and then.
What you say is true. However, it is mostly from an end game player, probably high level (not as in "level 65" but as in "collected a lot of stuff over the years") perspective. Yes, we have aux2bat and Boimler and whatever else keeps abilities up. I would guess the majority of players doesn't even know about A2B. And as we have seen many times, many players here are very casual and mostly enjoy the fluff. How many are even in a fleet, percentage wise?
And while I agree with the 360 ability arc idea as an interesting approach, it would make it even less tactical for this kind of player, because positioning yourself behind the enemy does nothing anymore (well, unless you have space flanking), there'd be no way to avoid abilities except for with counter abilities.
Again, needing to intentionally gimp ourselves in order to find some semblance of challenge in the game is a very clear indication the content is much, much, much too easy and power creep is out of control. The player base is made up of a wide variety of players. Yes, there are people who can easily solo any elite level content and yes, there are those newer players who struggle with basic story content. Should the game cater to the latter only? How long before those newer players become powerful enough to solo elite content, get bored and go spend their money elsewhere?
A long time I guess. A very long time. Because I think many players do not go for the maximizing of builds - because they don't know, because they don't feel the grind to get there would be fun, because they do not spend the amount of time and/or money necessary. Also because not everybody understands the more intricate build stuff. Yes, a halfway decently built purple Mk XII can do almost anything in this game, except for maybe some elite optional timers, but you need the building ability, the flying ability, and the understanding of what works when if you're not up 100% with everything and don't have all those fancy consoles and traits because 30 bucks apiece is a lot of money to sink into just one ability.
No, the game should also cater to the high end players, and the ideas offered as e. g. a level above "Elite" with additional enemy powers may work, but the majority is somewhere else. I don't know whether the majority of money spent is somewhere else as well, Cryptic will certainly analyze that question all the time.
As for gimping to challenge yourself: this happens in all kinds of games when you're good. That's why no kill runs exist in games. That's why people level in WOW by picking flowers only. They have experienced everything and are looking for a new challenge. You can put up any number of buffs to the enemies, as long as they are doable, people will learn how to beat it and then have completed the game and want new challenges. But at some point the game is just over. Yes, powercreep adds to that, but any game that can be beaten will be beaten and then we have your situation.
And that doesn't even touch the point of what I will call "Space Barbie" gimping, which happens a lot. Things like: I now have all Tholian ships, I will build completely around them. I will build a Scimitar with all its consoles, forgoing better options, because of the theme. I will make the Majalan Cruiser a pure five magics ship. All of this is gimping yourself but can be a lot more fun to some people (me included) than playing the same stuff over and over again with just one starship trait exchanged because it gives me 3% more DPS. But again, I think many players don't even reach that level - well, except for that casuals may actually be interested in more canon-y builds, gimping themselves unknowingly.
My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
I think my comments were misinterpreted, I'm not sure why they were removed. Let me rephrase.
The issue with the game's power creep is that it is too pervasive now to fix by scaling anything BACK. The solution has there got to be to raise the bottom up so it balances with the top end, and to increase the general enemy difficulty to match both.
Adding another tier of ships is fine so long as the power creep at the top is matched at the bottom. At present is is NOT.
They honestly need something like WOW's mythic+ dungeons for TFOs. Though I understand why this would be big undertaking sense most wouldn't do it if there was no award involved. But if it had Fleet based leader board would be cool.
You do not really need to spend a lot of money in this game in order to make an effective build, nor does it take very long to obtain decent gear. In my personal experience and observations, the average player is already well above what Advanced level content can offer. Parses I look at have most players well into the 40K to 60K DPS range. Sure, some fall well below the mark, but they are the exception and not the rule from what I have seen.
This is just my opinion, but even Elite is not really a challenge either. Tedious chore would be a more apt description for it.
So where do you take these parses? Obviously in TFOs, how would you otherwise know? But how many people are playing TFOs outside of events? How many are going to advanced? Heck, what percentage of players would even know where the setting for difficulty is?
No, it certainly doesn't take that much to get a decent build, but it does take some time and effort and knowledge of what to do. I would guess that STO, like many games which are big franchise tie ins, will have tons of players not here for the MMORPG gameplay but for the Trek stuff. Playing the same TFO 5 times to get all the elite marks for some upgrade (if they know about it in the rep system in the first place) doesn't sound fancy. If you then do not have an immediate start unlike the events, people just skip it. They're more into the episode stuff anyway. Which obviously needs even less power and thus build knowledge or grind to easily ace. But then again, these are the ones who might benefit the most from an additional slot here or trait there.
I obviously do not have the numbers, but I would guess people systematically upgrading, hunting for stuff, going to fleets are the minority of players. You see them more rarely if you're playing ISA or similar, and as I said earlier, from a commercial POV I wouldn't know whether they would be the cash cows - after all, if you don't know about all the other stuff, what are the odds that you would spend real money on some extra traits? - but we all have a pretty skewed way of looking at things, dictated by how we play the game ourselves and thus which people we meet. Cryptic might have more info on that. But in the end, people who already have no problems in Elite and will just measure DPS as some kind of metric to look forward to are maybe not the target audience for this change. Neither am I though I do not count me in that number either. People who get an easy power boost which is actually noticeable without parsing because you really shave off time when doing battles will be.
My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
You do not really need to spend a lot of money in this game in order to make an effective build, nor does it take very long to obtain decent gear. In my personal experience and observations, the average player is already well above what Advanced level content can offer. Parses I look at have most players well into the 40K to 60K DPS range. Sure, some fall well below the mark, but they are the exception and not the rule from what I have seen.
This is just my opinion, but even Elite is not really a challenge either. Tedious chore would be a more apt description for it.
So where do you take these parses? Obviously in TFOs, how would you otherwise know? But how many people are playing TFOs outside of events? How many are going to advanced? Heck, what percentage of players would even know where the setting for difficulty is?
No, it certainly doesn't take that much to get a decent build, but it does take some time and effort and knowledge of what to do. I would guess that STO, like many games which are big franchise tie ins, will have tons of players not here for the MMORPG gameplay but for the Trek stuff. Playing the same TFO 5 times to get all the elite marks for some upgrade (if they know about it in the rep system in the first place) doesn't sound fancy. If you then do not have an immediate start unlike the events, people just skip it. They're more into the episode stuff anyway. Which obviously needs even less power and thus build knowledge or grind to easily ace. But then again, these are the ones who might benefit the most from an additional slot here or trait there.
I obviously do not have the numbers, but I would guess people systematically upgrading, hunting for stuff, going to fleets are the minority of players. You see them more rarely if you're playing ISA or similar, and as I said earlier, from a commercial POV I wouldn't know whether they would be the cash cows - after all, if you don't know about all the other stuff, what are the odds that you would spend real money on some extra traits? - but we all have a pretty skewed way of looking at things, dictated by how we play the game ourselves and thus which people we meet. Cryptic might have more info on that. But in the end, people who already have no problems in Elite and will just measure DPS as some kind of metric to look forward to are maybe not the target audience for this change. Neither am I though I do not count me in that number either. People who get an easy power boost which is actually noticeable without parsing because you really shave off time when doing battles will be.
Snip...
...tons of players not here for the MMORPG gameplay but for the Trek stuff...these are the ones who might benefit the most from an additional slot here or trait there.
But in the end, people who already have no problems in Elite and will just measure DPS as some kind of metric to look forward to are maybe not the target audience for this change. Neither am I though I do not count me in that number either. People who get an easy power boost which is actually noticeable without parsing because you really shave off time when doing battles will be.
I honestly think newer/casual players (those here just for the Star Trek stuff) will see a smaller benefit from either X or XX upgrades and that they could be better off focusing on cooldown reduction (i.e. Photonic Officer, A2B, Boimlers) and ease of ability actuation (i.e. PC - using a basic offensive rotation keybind or Console - using auto execute).
These two things are free and can make a significant difference as compared to adding another console or trait
I think it safe to say it is a very good thing you do not work for Cryptic in the marketing department. Advising players to "go find another game" and "no need to buy anything in the store because it makes you too powerful" is not a very good strategy for player retention or increasing revenue. I already do play several games by the way.
It's basic advice, player to player. If you don't find joy in something, move on. I have zero obligation to Cryptic to cheerlead players past their burnout into an eternal cycle of misery if what they find if they examine the game is a reductive failure to provide gameplay the game isn't suited to provide at their level. Be it the rose colored glasses effect of solving every gameplay challenge and beyond with build development, you can absolutely reach a point with STO where you naturally nullify its challenge. Spend enough time with any game and you will reach that point. The devs cannot solve that except through resetting their game in some way, which is a non-starter suggestion.
If I said anything else to you, I'd be a liar trying to sucker you into an unhealthy spiral of expecting action from on high when said action will not come.
Fact: Cryptic can't get players to the top end of their difficulty curve reliably at present (see. Elite TFO's extremely limited population and explicit justifications for the lack of Elite RTFOs.) They have a demonstrable need to create more accessible paths to power. Ergo, X2 upgrades. Alternatives like reps and the fleet system take far more time and investment (ie. leaving a critical need for stop gaps), and are not so obvious to the apparent end-game experience that players reliably engage with that content. Most of my counseling to newbies is getting them over the expectation that found XII or lower gear is appropriate at level 65 (because the game gave them that gear at that level, an implicit endorsement from just about every other RPG they play) and that these ancillary systems are important. And yet STO is supposedly "space bar to win" (to one demographic at extreme levels of investment and fixed build behavior).
Ergo, not everything is about you. It's the literal justification for the X2 system judging from STO population trends, such that we can see them.
An obvious ship upgrade is an easy first remedy to take for a ship underperforming, from those suffering from that. It provides a stopgap improvement for players to make some headway with, allowing them time to engage with other systems before quitting STO in frustration. This is also being introduced without cutting other build paths (eg. nerfing fleet gear and reps) to fix player progression with a simpler line to power (ie. the ideal solution if Cryptic didn't give a TRIBBLE about what existing players are doing). It's a fairly optimal way to go with direct impacts in player retention and increasing revenue (without covering higher tier player benefits like having something new to do with x-upgrades, improving engagement with them while opening new build opportunities). Critically evaluating content isn't just a matter of how it relates to your own playstyle but what benefit it has to the population. And that will often find that the devs are incapable of solving a given problem, it's up to the player to adjust their approach to the game. Ergo: move on if you can't find fun in this game anymore. It's a natural part of MMO population cycling that the devs certainly appreciate and respect. They're not here begging anyone to stay against their own needs and interest (though somehow I'm expected to).
If something makes the game too easy for you, don't engage with it at whatever level is necessary. Let others make use of upgrades you don't want to get the power they need to have a more fun game. You have full control over how much this update impacts your game time. If you'd rather X2 upgrades not exist, treat it as though they don't exist in your builds. Cryptic doesn't need every player to buy into every c-store add-on. What they benefit most from is a range of content covering different niches over the course of a year. Money not spent here is money free for things in STO that actually interest you (if any, though if there's nothing then any claim to being a marketable niche is suspect.)
I honestly think newer/casual players (those here just for the Star Trek stuff) will see a smaller benefit from either X or XX upgrades and that they could be better off focusing on cooldown reduction (i.e. Photonic Officer, A2B, Boimlers) and ease of ability actuation (i.e. PC - using a basic offensive rotation keybind or Console - using auto execute).
These two things are free and can make a significant difference as compared to adding another console or trait
I highly doubt that for one very simple reason: cooldown reductions benefit those who are tapped out on buff scaling. Ie. high tier builds who need alternative buff mechanisms to circumvent build limits across other mechanics. See also the importance of Cat 2 buffs over Cat 1. From those who aren't pushing the high end of Cat 1 console buff scaling (ie. newbies), the extra build space allows them to spackle in more gear with higher proportional benefit than other players. That emulates other build decisions (ex. liberal use of upgrades, fleet gear, rep sets) that they may not be making (because non-intuitive system or not advertised to the extent needed) to create a more stable platform that they can learn from.
Hitting level 65 (and/or Vaadwuar) for players who aren't quick on the uptake can be an incredibly frustrating experience liable to make them quit STO. Something simple and intuitive (ex. hit the button that makes your ship better twice, using tokens gained fairly easily from events) is the way to go to provide more help at lower ends. Additionally, with newbies less likely to have 5-7 applicable offensive starship traits, the trait slot upgrades are also more likely to involve them slotting in defensive traits (nothing "better" at hand) which at the lower realms of the DPS curve are very useful. It's only as they start to build synergy and more powerful console/trait effects that you can ween players off defense buffs to kill targets before they can meaningfully respond. Ie. the X upgrades builds in a somewhat natural set of choices for players who might otherwise be trying to glass cannon their way to success on build advice not appropriate to their position (because the forums/reddit/top player guides said so, because that works for top players so why wouldn't it work for newbies? Narrator: because STO's many scaling relationships and threshold responses [ex. kill targets before they can fight back] change the meta along the DPS curve.)
The ideal fix for all this as mentioned above, time and cost no object, is to restructure STO's total build progression for intuitive simplicity...which involves cutting/nerfing a lot of content in favor of a skill-tree like system of build upgrades, centralizing what diverse systems offer. That's an End of Evangelion style solution, liable to set every feedback channel Cryptic has on fire, so I'll take marginal steps to put more power in easy reach for newbies.
Post edited by duncanidaho11 on
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I'd also guess that (given the X2 nomenclature) you can apply two of the Upgrade Tokens. It would be the easiest to implement as the 'X' code modules are already there. They would probably just need to have whatever mechanism currently in place to prevent Upgrades from being applied to an Upgraded Ship to have a counter that could go to 2 instead of 1.
Post edited by ltminns on
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Although I share the fears of power creep (miracle worker escorts with 8 tactical consoles or EPG builds with 8 sci ones, does this game really need such options?), I like the idea that many more options will be viable for mixed builds.
I've got a few all-energy torp, drain+energy, drain+torp etc. builds. When you need a good number of both sci and tac consoles for all aspects of the build to work, those additional console slots are certainly welcome.
It allows such builds to be used more effectively on a broader range of ships - and it allows for further diversification, making specialisation in three things better possible on ships where two was previously just attainable. Instead of only limiting oneself to Drain+Energy on a Monitor class for example, things like Drain+energy+hangars can become more viable now.
I'll probably be upgrading my Luna and L-Vesta classes, the ships I used for drain+torp builds, first. After that, the Legendary Intrepid to make it better suited for having a regular beam build. Then a ship that I use the new advanced engineering consoles on.
After that, the L-Akira with its all-energy torp build - there are still unused torpedo clicky powers, like the Voth spatial charge one that I had to remove when the Mirror Oddysey and its console became available.
Ships that use 2 consoles to get a battle cloak, will likely be next. And I might be better able to use other ship-specific sets like that of the Avenger-line on my toon that flies an Inquiry after this new update.
Not all of this new upgrade ability is going to add power creep. I can imagine that, in most cases, players will also be looking to add a few new fun tricks to their ships. A fun experience doesn't just come from being powerful, after all.
[4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother
I honestly think newer/casual players (those here just for the Star Trek stuff) will see a smaller benefit from either X or XX upgrades and that they could be better off focusing on cooldown reduction (i.e. Photonic Officer, A2B, Boimlers) and ease of ability actuation (i.e. PC - using a basic offensive rotation keybind or Console - using auto execute).
These two things are free and can make a significant difference as compared to adding another console or trait
I completely agree - cooldown management, once you start looking into it, is a complete game changer, not only the output but also the gaming experience.
However, it is not a natural expansion for the casual player. Them, who do not read up on everything going on or similar. You may stumble across a console or trait every once in a while, but you do the stuff you did before. And I would also guess that most players do not use anything like keybinds (except maybe those provided by the trays). Might it be better? Not gonna doubt that. But that's the thing, many players don't go that deep into a game, they take what is presented to them and work with it. Boimler is lobi - you don't get enough of it to even think about it when casualling. A2B is a specific build you'd have to find yourself. PhotOff, yeah, maybe. But a new console slot? Yeah, people would notice and have an idea about what to put in.
Again, I am not a huge fan of T6-X2 myself, and some might consider this a cop out instead of properly teaching aspects of the game, but I still guess that for many players this would increase the DMG and thus the fun in an accessible way. Many of the (better) alternates are just not as accessible. Especially if you're new-ish and have to understand all the stuff that for those who have been here for 10 years or so came incrementally.
My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
I honestly think newer/casual players (those here just for the Star Trek stuff) will see a smaller benefit from either X or XX upgrades and that they could be better off focusing on cooldown reduction (i.e. Photonic Officer, A2B, Boimlers) and ease of ability actuation (i.e. PC - using a basic offensive rotation keybind or Console - using auto execute).
These two things are free and can make a significant difference as compared to adding another console or trait
I completely agree - cooldown management, once you start looking into it, is a complete game changer, not only the output but also the gaming experience.
However, it is not a natural expansion for the casual player. Them, who do not read up on everything going on or similar. You may stumble across a console or trait every once in a while, but you do the stuff you did before. And I would also guess that most players do not use anything like keybinds (except maybe those provided by the trays). Might it be better? Not gonna doubt that. But that's the thing, many players don't go that deep into a game, they take what is presented to them and work with it. Boimler is lobi - you don't get enough of it to even think about it when casualling. A2B is a specific build you'd have to find yourself. PhotOff, yeah, maybe. But a new console slot? Yeah, people would notice and have an idea about what to put in.
Again, I am not a huge fan of T6-X2 myself, and some might consider this a cop out instead of properly teaching aspects of the game, but I still guess that for many players this would increase the DMG and thus the fun in an accessible way. Many of the (better) alternates are just not as accessible. Especially if you're new-ish and have to understand all the stuff that for those who have been here for 10 years or so came incrementally.
I hear ya and apologize for sounding like a broken record. Casual players would benefit from an extra console or trait. It's just that on PC using a basic keybind is the most magical multiplier I've ever found, in conjunction with the cooldown thing.
I would completely agree that for cooldown management Boimler, being lobi, is probably off the menu for most casual players. Thing is, a few days ago when I failed to mention it as an option in another thread I was heavily corrected (in good humor) so now I have to be all inclusive 🙄
A2B works well but one reason I abandoned it for quite a while years ago was that it was unmanageable without a keybind.. too many buttons to press or click on. Being able to cycle through an entire row of boff abilities sequentially by tapping a key or the spacebar is a godsend and allows for more focus on piloting and enjoyment of Cryptic's fine maps.
I wouldn't necessarily give Photonic Officer a "maybe" though. PO1 for BFAW and PO2 for everything else from cannons to science builds.
Cooldown management + a basic keybind still seems to be the easiest way to really add some zing to a starship. All for the cost of a bridge officer training token and taking an hour to set things up after watching a how-to video.
Yes, very casual and new players won't necessarily understand what I'm saying or they'll be a stubborn starship Captain just like I was.
So I probably shouldn't mention that the same system can be used to give a science ship an "anomaly key" or to put throttle control onto the scroll wheel of a mouse.
> As for HOW it works... I predict its just expanding the current T6X token to be usable on any ship twice rather than once. Makes sense to me honestly.
You are overly optimistic. It'll most likely be a new token because of the massive glut of T-6X tokens already out there. Hell I have 10 sitting around I don't need and I'm most F2P anymore. Its just that easy to get. IF they use the same tokens, It'll more likely take more than 1 to go to T6-XX. 3 or more would be my guess. But it definitely won't just use the old tokens.
Although I share the fears of power creep (miracle worker escorts with 8 tactical consoles or EPG builds with 8 sci ones, does this game really need such options?), I like the idea that many more options will be viable for mixed builds.
....
Not all of this new upgrade ability is going to add power creep. I can imagine that, in most cases, players will also be looking to add a few new fun tricks to their ships. A fun experience doesn't just come from being powerful, after all.
Good points. This will be a big help to flavor builds too. For example one of my captains flies Tholian ships with all of the set consoles, even though that's far from the meta. Having extra console slots will help make up for the penalty from using the "fun" consoles instead of "good" consoles.
"Upgrade to T6-X to T6-X2
Unlock an additional Starship Trait Slot, Universal Console Slot, and Device Slot"
This gives me mix feelings. Carriers 100% could benefit and make use of this without being to powerful. So I am looking forward to upgrading all my Carrier builds to T6-X2.
Most Torpedo boats though are already OP and upgrading to X2 will just push them further into silly levels same for high end energy boat builds. Though there are exceptions like Tricobalt Boats are underpowered and so will benefit from X2.
In short a bunch of weak builds are going be brought up to decent levels. A number of over powered builds are going to be made even more over powered.
I fly Tricobalts and Carriers so this is a good change for me but I can see the problems its going cause in other builds.
Upgrade to T6-X to T6-X2
Unlock an additional Starship Trait Slot, Universal Console Slot, and Device Slot
You nerf damage left and right saying stuff does make to much boom boom boom yet here we go again another update to get more damage? Where is the common sense in all this?
they nerfed it to now sell you the power back - i hope that clears up your mind. always remember: war is good for buisness!
Well sure, what you are saying is advice, however not all advice is good or worth considering. Advising players to "go elsewhere", "move on", "don't bother upgrading" etc. does not send the right message at all.
Edit: long reply, so for the sake of others in the thread the below is spoiler tagged:
If you don't like the system don't engage with it. If you don't find the core gameplay of STO engaging, move on. These are basic steps towards managing one's mental health in a game catered towards a larger population than oneself. If this isn't "the right message" then what you're pushing for is a cheerlead echo chamber. I have no interest in maintaining that, for community interactions and discourse to be valuable they need to be substantive beyond towing the tribal line, and the continued insistence that I should has zero persuasive impact. Critical logical flaws in the stated needs of the game remain and an emotional appeal to "correct" behavior for the game's/community's interest (as filtered through personal viewpoints and interest) cannot be conveyed as counter.
I also do not believe most would agree that the game needs to be rebuilt from the ground up to make it more difficult.
Most suggestions are along the lines of adding the higher difficulty levels for events back in and adding optional new content that is designed for those looking for more of a challenge. Those ideas are most definitely not "non-starter suggestions."
Cryptic cannot make the game not "space bar to win" for those that find that reductive conclusion to be compelling, which you explicitly did. The two prime solutions are:
1. Rebalance the entire game to nerf the meta and shrink the gap between DPS maximum and DPS minimum. The reasons why the maximum is so extreme that it can result in "space bar to win" is because of the diverse network of system interactions that bypass the game's original scaling factors against extreme power (ex. crit, cooldown reductions, exotic damage, haste, universal console effects, starship traits). You cannot target a subset of consoles/traits to make the game feel more challenging to the top tiers of DPS. A total overhaul of content + underlying mechanics would in fact be necessary. And there is no universe where this would be a popular solution as the player reflex exhibited by any singular nerf is most often frustration, coupled with calls by the more incredulous player that Cryptic deliberately baited and switched them. Multiply that across every system effected with multiplicative effects from the scale of update (representing time investment punishing the top tiers of meta/investment that wasn't spent on other possible updates or bug fixes). The claim would be that Cryptic sold players on meta-expanding content for years (often focused around expensive ships to justify their expense) then nerfed all that to a point of balance associated with lower tier builds. This is a game-ending backlash as it decries investment in the game's core economic pillars and breaks consumer trust at a fundamental level amongst a core group of whale players.
Though the greater slight against the profitability/popularity of the game is apparently me saying don't buy X2 upgrades if you don't want X2 upgrades or don't build your ship for DPS exclusively when you have too much DPS...
2. Add a super elite mode, but given the fact that elite content is presently under-leveraged there's no plausible market for making a higher tier above that. Cryptic would first need to make existing elite content more accessible by bringing player builds up, on average, to create a demonstrable niche that could justify the development effort (when advanced/elite versions of TFO's is already significant effort that sometimes needs to be postponed for other development priorities).
There's also a marginal solution for specific content: 3) add a new significantly more difficult enemy type that pushes players even further. But the effect of this is to create an effective gatekeeper on new content. The vaadwuar already verge on this effect as they're a common wall for newbies to run into if they've followed the path of least resistance on their builds (rather than taking the initiative STO assumes players have with its systems, which is probably the greatest wall for STO's accessibility beyond core format vs. modern gaming conventions). The Tzenkethi and Mokai's upgrades over regular klingon have also not been popular by any stretch of the imagination. While some players would be thrilled with a notable bump in season difficulty, it would absolutely punish newer players, more casual players, those who simply don't find punishing gameplay fun (hence investment in STO as it is across most content), and the significant niche of players who only log in for new seasons (and thus lack the fundamental build capacity or interest for content that would please those that decry STO's easiness). These groups are comprehensively NOT considered in the cries that the game is too easy (as they're contrary evidence to a desired conclusion) and reinforce the point that this literally isn't all about you and your aligned interest group.
There is no good solution to making the game more difficult (beyond do it yourself through existing systems and different build priorities). All plausible suggestions are non-starters, at least at present. X2 upgrades are even a path towards #2, bringing the population up via more intuitive/accessible upgrade paths so that more difficult content. The first step towards any increase in difficulty is to increase the prominence of elite play in core content via greater accessibility of elite-capable power. Otherwise, you're creating walls to mandate micro and macro-transactions. And trying to promote elite's prominence was recently attempted with argument-voiding effects.
You cannot assume to know what the many reasons why there are not as many players doing Elite TFOs. Rewards not being enticing enough is a large part of the reason. You also cannot use RTFOs as the only data point. There are many fleets in game that run Elite TFOs regularly and several chat channels devoted to running Elite TFOs and content.
This is nonsense. There are also fleets and other social groups that run advanced content with friends (grouping in preferred content in the course of regular MMO socialization, per the Digital "3rd Spaces" dynamic). There is no possible way for you to claim that these effects are more prevalent for hard content such that they could compensate for the abysmal standing population through the regular TFO system (which would be improved IF elite had RTFOs as the population issues are exasperated by the same dynamics that the RTFO system sought to solve pre-Andre). Exclusive groups catering to elite players are just one nominal reason for forming said groups. The core behavior applies to all content with the flavor chosen reflecting the preference of the social group (even when actively sought out). The invisible masses fallacy cannot be invoked to spackle over statistical shortcomings in your argument.
The fact is that exclusive gear wasn't enough to move the needle long term, in addition to elite's boosted dil and mark payout. Cryptic created a new end-game grind focus on elite content, and while it boosted elite play for a short while it did not solve underlying issues with the desirability and accessibility of elite, resulting in significant deflation. There's no argument to make anymore that the rewards aren't enticing enough (as something that can be applied to the population) because we have just seen that criticism targeted via considerable development effort exceeding the expectations of those who prior cried out for more in Elite. The advanced consoles at the very least serve as bonus EC via the exchange, buffing the array of resources offered significantly. Ultimately, players habituating around advanced content for its lack of challenge (both in scaling effect and non-mandatory optionals) won out in terms of overall population dynamics which notably informs what content gets developed. Even if you could say there could be legions of folks playing elite in private channels, and that is vastly disproportionate in effect vs. other difficulties, look at where Cryptic spends their development effort for where the bulk of the STO population actually lies and where their resources are most impactfully spent. Content development is itself a data point on player preferences and it falsifies the argument you're trying to make here. Don't shy away from that.
Ie. space bar to win isn't a problem at all for players, in general. As far as we can possibly tell, they're actively gravitating towards it rather than pushing for a harder game. Even among invested players, the ridiculous heights you can push DPS is itself a rewarding build direction even as it nullifies all perceptible challenge in gameplay. Challenge instead comes from build performance, much like lap time in auto racing. There's no question that cars can get around a track, where the sport/fun lies is in how far the numbers can be pushed on there own relative scale. This is basic commentary on how things like DPS leaderboards work. The criticism of STO being "too easy" fails because the demonstrable tendencies of the population and alternative value sets on content appreciation aren't considered, ie. the needs of others. Those who find the game not challenging enough per their singular experiences, refuse to take any action to adjust the balance of the game themselves, and actively reject alternative viewpoints for not towing their desired line are running through a rut of habit and a waning appreciation for core content in any flavor which could mitigate their ennui (eg. specialized build challenges away from DPS, creative outletting, narrative which can nullify the issue or its significance on multiple counts). Eg. burnout.
It doesn't require hating the game to be in effect.
Again, this is absolutely terrible advice that sends the wrong message. You are essentially telling other players not to bother obtaining anything beyond standard gear and not to invest any time in anything or spend money in the store outside of cosmetics. Why bother buying any kind of upgrade like the forthcoming X2 if it is just going to make you too powerful?
That's a strawman. You can absolutely obtain gear and invest time and money in the game pushing for things besides raw deeps. For example: the cyclone patrol escort. I picked it up in part to support flanking builds which is a playstyle that is inherently suboptimal (for forcing equipment trade-offs and a reliance on positioning/console activation that other builds don't require.) Picking up new content didn't result in a DPS expansion but a lateral build choice that, at the cost of DPS, resulted in an engaging style of gameplay (forcing more than space bar to win per personal build choices taken on the standard of what's more fun). On another character I'm also using the ship as a science vessel, preferring the build challenge of optimizing across contrasting build facets, for what power can be extracted from that compromised setup, rather than focusing on maximum theoretical deeps. Ie. the complaint that STO is too easy can be solved even while supporting the game. You just make different (and more appropriate) decisions with the tools given. For example: using X2 upgrade space for suboptimal but engaging consoles and traits (prioritizing gameplay effects over raw numbers) such as those that split build direction (which is how I've approached the kit module slot from captain upgrades. In ground I've also avoided "too easy" meta builds in preference to preferred gameplay and likely invested more in that than the vast majority of STO's population). That is an easy call if one is actually directing their build choices per their stated needs and priorities, rather than pushing DPS ad infinitum as if the game was still asking for that in any terms, despite evidence to the contrary that it isn't, and the deleterious effect that's having to one's gameplay appreciation.
The simple point to make is still stop blaming the game for bashing your own head into the same wall. No matter the vehemence of the objection, the problems stated can demonstrably be solved by players by their own means. Rejecting those experience is not a constructive approach to discourse. The underlying argument, that it should be the devs forcing these choices on players, is not responsible advice as it fundamentally misconstrues the role of the player in directing their RPG experiences. It presumes incorrect choices to problems experienced should be catered to by the devs by changing the game rather than players changing their builds and priorities. That's inclusive to the point that the game isn't fun enough for a given build direction.
This is a basic facet to build preference. Rejecting it will naturally result in less fun gametime. Ergo, tackle the fundamental problem rather than chasing perceived symptoms.
Post edited by duncanidaho11 on
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Although I share the fears of power creep (miracle worker escorts with 8 tactical consoles or EPG builds with 8 sci ones, does this game really need such options?), I like the idea that many more options will be viable for mixed builds.
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Not all of this new upgrade ability is going to add power creep. I can imagine that, in most cases, players will also be looking to add a few new fun tricks to their ships. A fun experience doesn't just come from being powerful, after all.
Good points. This will be a big help to flavor builds too. For example one of my captains flies Tholian ships with all of the set consoles, even though that's far from the meta. Having extra console slots will help make up for the penalty from using the "fun" consoles instead of "good" consoles.
And as mentioned in the brick above (new reply to better separate discussion threads), that's exactly how I approached captain upgrade's kit module slot. Adding a 6th module along didn't push up the power of my builds but allowed me the space to make split-focused builds that combine to different playstyles rather than trying to get the most out of one. I became more versatile rather than conventionally meta-breaking. Other players certainly chose different but there's no power on earth that requires us to follow a tribal expectation for how we should engage with this content (ie. push for the top tiers of meta, per meta build philosophies). Do what works best for you across all dimensions of "best'.
I've been increasingly doing this in space too, such as in trying to make a Cyclone patrol escort function as a science ship AND an escort simultaneously and effectively. Another starship trait slot gives more flexibility for that. The only weakness in X2 IMO is the device slot. There aren't many things players can equip to make compelling use of that beyond a few staples and power trays are already filled to capacity on mid to higher tier builds. X1 device slot upgrades I only notice for escorts. For cruisers it usually goes unused.
A solution could be to create new devices with small proc'ed effects that don't flirt with conventional power increases, ex. minor minion spawn, healing, or debuff clearing on certain conditions; or non-combat effects like generating salvage, common doffs, themed loot, or generic admiralty cards at low frequencies. Alternatively you can require all distress transponders to be equipped for use to force more slot use without new content development (less popular route). It's not a major issue but as device slot expansions continue to be marketed I think there should be more done to make those slots desirable (ideally per fun new effects that don't require power tray action).
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For devices I usually use whichever two or three basic batteries go best with the build, often a summoning beacon of some sort, and one slot for the Kobayashi Maru buff launcher. Often the X-upgrade device slot goes unused except for KDF characters where it just means another flavor of heavy deployable turret gets slotted for flexibility's sake and to give the doffs something to do with the Marauding tab stuff.
Do I really need another device slot? Probably not, though I suppose it is an easy way to pad out the upgrade without too much extra power creep. Whenever I have mentioned running with a device slot empty like that others have said they often do the same thing on their ships that start off with a lot of device slots too, so I am obviously not the only one.
An extra ship trait slot and an extra console slot are definitely useful, but only if it does not further widen the gap between fully upgraded T5s and T6s so hopefully it means the X2 upgrades can be used on T5UX ships too (in fact it would be nice of the X2 was slightly more effective on the T5UX ships so a T5UX2 would be even more in line with their T6 counterparts in light of the fact that it has become obvious that there are T5 ships that the devs have little or no interest in converting to T6 anytime soon (if at all).
As to what kind of token is used for X2 upgrades, it may be that part of the purpose of the X2 stuff is to drain some of the existing stock of X-tokens down a bit so that the filler events can still offer them without them too worthless by way of overstocking. If that is the case than it would make sense to just use the same tokens twice, and the doubled need for them would balance out the number of tokens the minor events give for at least the near future.
Although I share the fears of power creep (miracle worker escorts with 8 tactical consoles or EPG builds with 8 sci ones, does this game really need such options?), I like the idea that many more options will be viable for mixed builds.
....
Not all of this new upgrade ability is going to add power creep. I can imagine that, in most cases, players will also be looking to add a few new fun tricks to their ships. A fun experience doesn't just come from being powerful, after all.
Good points. This will be a big help to flavor builds too. For example one of my captains flies Tholian ships with all of the set consoles, even though that's far from the meta. Having extra console slots will help make up for the penalty from using the "fun" consoles instead of "good" consoles.
And as mentioned in the brick above (new reply to better separate discussion threads), that's exactly how I approached captain upgrade's kit module slot. Adding a 6th module along didn't push up the power of my builds but allowed me the space to make split-focused builds that combine to different playstyles rather than trying to get the most out of one. I became more versatile rather than conventionally meta-breaking. Other players certainly chose different but there's no power on earth that requires us to follow a tribal expectation for how we should engage with this content (ie. push for the top tiers of meta, per meta build philosophies). Do what works best for you across all dimensions of "best'.
I've been increasingly doing this in space too, such as in trying to make a Cyclone patrol escort function as a science ship AND an escort simultaneously and effectively. Another starship trait slot gives more flexibility for that. The only weakness in X2 IMO is the device slot. There aren't many things players can equip to make compelling use of that beyond a few staples and power trays are already filled to capacity on mid to higher tier builds. X1 device slot upgrades I only notice for escorts. For cruisers it usually goes unused.
A solution could be to create new devices with small proc'ed effects that don't flirt with conventional power increases, ex. minor minion spawn, healing, or debuff clearing on certain conditions; or non-combat effects like generating salvage, common doffs, themed loot, or generic admiralty cards at low frequencies. Alternatively you can require all distress transponders to be equipped for use to force more slot use without new content development (less popular route). It's not a major issue but as device slot expansions continue to be marketed I think there should be more done to make those slots desirable (ideally per fun new effects that don't require power tray action).
There were also one or two lockboxes that had devices in them that were based on consoles from C-store ships. I believe they were single-use however, and it was never continued with newer lockboxes.
Making some tweaks to their availability and adding more of such things could also be a way of making device slots more useful in space.
Personally I don't really use devices. I tend to balance my builds such and have, for certain scenarios, some additional Boff skills (such as EptE) trained so that I'm not dependent on stuff that needs to be refilled, after creating or crafting them separately every time they run out.
If more devices were made based on toned-down versions of consoles, or something of an auto-refill feature added, I'd be more interested in them. And the X-tokens would have three interesting features, instead of two good ones and a 'meh' one.
[4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother
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What you say is true. However, it is mostly from an end game player, probably high level (not as in "level 65" but as in "collected a lot of stuff over the years") perspective. Yes, we have aux2bat and Boimler and whatever else keeps abilities up. I would guess the majority of players doesn't even know about A2B. And as we have seen many times, many players here are very casual and mostly enjoy the fluff. How many are even in a fleet, percentage wise?
And while I agree with the 360 ability arc idea as an interesting approach, it would make it even less tactical for this kind of player, because positioning yourself behind the enemy does nothing anymore (well, unless you have space flanking), there'd be no way to avoid abilities except for with counter abilities.
A long time I guess. A very long time. Because I think many players do not go for the maximizing of builds - because they don't know, because they don't feel the grind to get there would be fun, because they do not spend the amount of time and/or money necessary. Also because not everybody understands the more intricate build stuff. Yes, a halfway decently built purple Mk XII can do almost anything in this game, except for maybe some elite optional timers, but you need the building ability, the flying ability, and the understanding of what works when if you're not up 100% with everything and don't have all those fancy consoles and traits because 30 bucks apiece is a lot of money to sink into just one ability.
No, the game should also cater to the high end players, and the ideas offered as e. g. a level above "Elite" with additional enemy powers may work, but the majority is somewhere else. I don't know whether the majority of money spent is somewhere else as well, Cryptic will certainly analyze that question all the time.
As for gimping to challenge yourself: this happens in all kinds of games when you're good. That's why no kill runs exist in games. That's why people level in WOW by picking flowers only. They have experienced everything and are looking for a new challenge. You can put up any number of buffs to the enemies, as long as they are doable, people will learn how to beat it and then have completed the game and want new challenges. But at some point the game is just over. Yes, powercreep adds to that, but any game that can be beaten will be beaten and then we have your situation.
And that doesn't even touch the point of what I will call "Space Barbie" gimping, which happens a lot. Things like: I now have all Tholian ships, I will build completely around them. I will build a Scimitar with all its consoles, forgoing better options, because of the theme. I will make the Majalan Cruiser a pure five magics ship. All of this is gimping yourself but can be a lot more fun to some people (me included) than playing the same stuff over and over again with just one starship trait exchanged because it gives me 3% more DPS. But again, I think many players don't even reach that level - well, except for that casuals may actually be interested in more canon-y builds, gimping themselves unknowingly.
They honestly need something like WOW's mythic+ dungeons for TFOs. Though I understand why this would be big undertaking sense most wouldn't do it if there was no award involved. But if it had Fleet based leader board would be cool.
So where do you take these parses? Obviously in TFOs, how would you otherwise know? But how many people are playing TFOs outside of events? How many are going to advanced? Heck, what percentage of players would even know where the setting for difficulty is?
No, it certainly doesn't take that much to get a decent build, but it does take some time and effort and knowledge of what to do. I would guess that STO, like many games which are big franchise tie ins, will have tons of players not here for the MMORPG gameplay but for the Trek stuff. Playing the same TFO 5 times to get all the elite marks for some upgrade (if they know about it in the rep system in the first place) doesn't sound fancy. If you then do not have an immediate start unlike the events, people just skip it. They're more into the episode stuff anyway. Which obviously needs even less power and thus build knowledge or grind to easily ace. But then again, these are the ones who might benefit the most from an additional slot here or trait there.
I obviously do not have the numbers, but I would guess people systematically upgrading, hunting for stuff, going to fleets are the minority of players. You see them more rarely if you're playing ISA or similar, and as I said earlier, from a commercial POV I wouldn't know whether they would be the cash cows - after all, if you don't know about all the other stuff, what are the odds that you would spend real money on some extra traits? - but we all have a pretty skewed way of looking at things, dictated by how we play the game ourselves and thus which people we meet. Cryptic might have more info on that. But in the end, people who already have no problems in Elite and will just measure DPS as some kind of metric to look forward to are maybe not the target audience for this change. Neither am I though I do not count me in that number either. People who get an easy power boost which is actually noticeable without parsing because you really shave off time when doing battles will be.
Snip...
I honestly think newer/casual players (those here just for the Star Trek stuff) will see a smaller benefit from either X or XX upgrades and that they could be better off focusing on cooldown reduction (i.e. Photonic Officer, A2B, Boimlers) and ease of ability actuation (i.e. PC - using a basic offensive rotation keybind or Console - using auto execute).
These two things are free and can make a significant difference as compared to adding another console or trait
It's basic advice, player to player. If you don't find joy in something, move on. I have zero obligation to Cryptic to cheerlead players past their burnout into an eternal cycle of misery if what they find if they examine the game is a reductive failure to provide gameplay the game isn't suited to provide at their level. Be it the rose colored glasses effect of solving every gameplay challenge and beyond with build development, you can absolutely reach a point with STO where you naturally nullify its challenge. Spend enough time with any game and you will reach that point. The devs cannot solve that except through resetting their game in some way, which is a non-starter suggestion.
If I said anything else to you, I'd be a liar trying to sucker you into an unhealthy spiral of expecting action from on high when said action will not come.
Fact: Cryptic can't get players to the top end of their difficulty curve reliably at present (see. Elite TFO's extremely limited population and explicit justifications for the lack of Elite RTFOs.) They have a demonstrable need to create more accessible paths to power. Ergo, X2 upgrades. Alternatives like reps and the fleet system take far more time and investment (ie. leaving a critical need for stop gaps), and are not so obvious to the apparent end-game experience that players reliably engage with that content. Most of my counseling to newbies is getting them over the expectation that found XII or lower gear is appropriate at level 65 (because the game gave them that gear at that level, an implicit endorsement from just about every other RPG they play) and that these ancillary systems are important. And yet STO is supposedly "space bar to win" (to one demographic at extreme levels of investment and fixed build behavior).
Ergo, not everything is about you. It's the literal justification for the X2 system judging from STO population trends, such that we can see them.
An obvious ship upgrade is an easy first remedy to take for a ship underperforming, from those suffering from that. It provides a stopgap improvement for players to make some headway with, allowing them time to engage with other systems before quitting STO in frustration. This is also being introduced without cutting other build paths (eg. nerfing fleet gear and reps) to fix player progression with a simpler line to power (ie. the ideal solution if Cryptic didn't give a TRIBBLE about what existing players are doing). It's a fairly optimal way to go with direct impacts in player retention and increasing revenue (without covering higher tier player benefits like having something new to do with x-upgrades, improving engagement with them while opening new build opportunities). Critically evaluating content isn't just a matter of how it relates to your own playstyle but what benefit it has to the population. And that will often find that the devs are incapable of solving a given problem, it's up to the player to adjust their approach to the game. Ergo: move on if you can't find fun in this game anymore. It's a natural part of MMO population cycling that the devs certainly appreciate and respect. They're not here begging anyone to stay against their own needs and interest (though somehow I'm expected to).
If something makes the game too easy for you, don't engage with it at whatever level is necessary. Let others make use of upgrades you don't want to get the power they need to have a more fun game. You have full control over how much this update impacts your game time. If you'd rather X2 upgrades not exist, treat it as though they don't exist in your builds. Cryptic doesn't need every player to buy into every c-store add-on. What they benefit most from is a range of content covering different niches over the course of a year. Money not spent here is money free for things in STO that actually interest you (if any, though if there's nothing then any claim to being a marketable niche is suspect.)
I highly doubt that for one very simple reason: cooldown reductions benefit those who are tapped out on buff scaling. Ie. high tier builds who need alternative buff mechanisms to circumvent build limits across other mechanics. See also the importance of Cat 2 buffs over Cat 1. From those who aren't pushing the high end of Cat 1 console buff scaling (ie. newbies), the extra build space allows them to spackle in more gear with higher proportional benefit than other players. That emulates other build decisions (ex. liberal use of upgrades, fleet gear, rep sets) that they may not be making (because non-intuitive system or not advertised to the extent needed) to create a more stable platform that they can learn from.
Hitting level 65 (and/or Vaadwuar) for players who aren't quick on the uptake can be an incredibly frustrating experience liable to make them quit STO. Something simple and intuitive (ex. hit the button that makes your ship better twice, using tokens gained fairly easily from events) is the way to go to provide more help at lower ends. Additionally, with newbies less likely to have 5-7 applicable offensive starship traits, the trait slot upgrades are also more likely to involve them slotting in defensive traits (nothing "better" at hand) which at the lower realms of the DPS curve are very useful. It's only as they start to build synergy and more powerful console/trait effects that you can ween players off defense buffs to kill targets before they can meaningfully respond. Ie. the X upgrades builds in a somewhat natural set of choices for players who might otherwise be trying to glass cannon their way to success on build advice not appropriate to their position (because the forums/reddit/top player guides said so, because that works for top players so why wouldn't it work for newbies? Narrator: because STO's many scaling relationships and threshold responses [ex. kill targets before they can fight back] change the meta along the DPS curve.)
The ideal fix for all this as mentioned above, time and cost no object, is to restructure STO's total build progression for intuitive simplicity...which involves cutting/nerfing a lot of content in favor of a skill-tree like system of build upgrades, centralizing what diverse systems offer. That's an End of Evangelion style solution, liable to set every feedback channel Cryptic has on fire, so I'll take marginal steps to put more power in easy reach for newbies.
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l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
I've got a few all-energy torp, drain+energy, drain+torp etc. builds. When you need a good number of both sci and tac consoles for all aspects of the build to work, those additional console slots are certainly welcome.
It allows such builds to be used more effectively on a broader range of ships - and it allows for further diversification, making specialisation in three things better possible on ships where two was previously just attainable. Instead of only limiting oneself to Drain+Energy on a Monitor class for example, things like Drain+energy+hangars can become more viable now.
I'll probably be upgrading my Luna and L-Vesta classes, the ships I used for drain+torp builds, first. After that, the Legendary Intrepid to make it better suited for having a regular beam build. Then a ship that I use the new advanced engineering consoles on.
After that, the L-Akira with its all-energy torp build - there are still unused torpedo clicky powers, like the Voth spatial charge one that I had to remove when the Mirror Oddysey and its console became available.
Ships that use 2 consoles to get a battle cloak, will likely be next. And I might be better able to use other ship-specific sets like that of the Avenger-line on my toon that flies an Inquiry after this new update.
Not all of this new upgrade ability is going to add power creep. I can imagine that, in most cases, players will also be looking to add a few new fun tricks to their ships. A fun experience doesn't just come from being powerful, after all.
[3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
I completely agree - cooldown management, once you start looking into it, is a complete game changer, not only the output but also the gaming experience.
However, it is not a natural expansion for the casual player. Them, who do not read up on everything going on or similar. You may stumble across a console or trait every once in a while, but you do the stuff you did before. And I would also guess that most players do not use anything like keybinds (except maybe those provided by the trays). Might it be better? Not gonna doubt that. But that's the thing, many players don't go that deep into a game, they take what is presented to them and work with it. Boimler is lobi - you don't get enough of it to even think about it when casualling. A2B is a specific build you'd have to find yourself. PhotOff, yeah, maybe. But a new console slot? Yeah, people would notice and have an idea about what to put in.
Again, I am not a huge fan of T6-X2 myself, and some might consider this a cop out instead of properly teaching aspects of the game, but I still guess that for many players this would increase the DMG and thus the fun in an accessible way. Many of the (better) alternates are just not as accessible. Especially if you're new-ish and have to understand all the stuff that for those who have been here for 10 years or so came incrementally.
I hear ya and apologize for sounding like a broken record. Casual players would benefit from an extra console or trait. It's just that on PC using a basic keybind is the most magical multiplier I've ever found, in conjunction with the cooldown thing.
I would completely agree that for cooldown management Boimler, being lobi, is probably off the menu for most casual players. Thing is, a few days ago when I failed to mention it as an option in another thread I was heavily corrected (in good humor) so now I have to be all inclusive 🙄
A2B works well but one reason I abandoned it for quite a while years ago was that it was unmanageable without a keybind.. too many buttons to press or click on. Being able to cycle through an entire row of boff abilities sequentially by tapping a key or the spacebar is a godsend and allows for more focus on piloting and enjoyment of Cryptic's fine maps.
I wouldn't necessarily give Photonic Officer a "maybe" though. PO1 for BFAW and PO2 for everything else from cannons to science builds.
Cooldown management + a basic keybind still seems to be the easiest way to really add some zing to a starship. All for the cost of a bridge officer training token and taking an hour to set things up after watching a how-to video.
Yes, very casual and new players won't necessarily understand what I'm saying or they'll be a stubborn starship Captain just like I was.
So I probably shouldn't mention that the same system can be used to give a science ship an "anomaly key" or to put throttle control onto the scroll wheel of a mouse.
> As for HOW it works... I predict its just expanding the current T6X token to be usable on any ship twice rather than once. Makes sense to me honestly.
You are overly optimistic. It'll most likely be a new token because of the massive glut of T-6X tokens already out there. Hell I have 10 sitting around I don't need and I'm most F2P anymore. Its just that easy to get.
IF they use the same tokens, It'll more likely take more than 1 to go to T6-XX. 3 or more would be my guess. But it definitely won't just use the old tokens.
Good points. This will be a big help to flavor builds too. For example one of my captains flies Tholian ships with all of the set consoles, even though that's far from the meta. Having extra console slots will help make up for the penalty from using the "fun" consoles instead of "good" consoles.
Unlock an additional Starship Trait Slot, Universal Console Slot, and Device Slot"
This gives me mix feelings. Carriers 100% could benefit and make use of this without being to powerful. So I am looking forward to upgrading all my Carrier builds to T6-X2.
Most Torpedo boats though are already OP and upgrading to X2 will just push them further into silly levels same for high end energy boat builds. Though there are exceptions like Tricobalt Boats are underpowered and so will benefit from X2.
In short a bunch of weak builds are going be brought up to decent levels. A number of over powered builds are going to be made even more over powered.
I fly Tricobalts and Carriers so this is a good change for me but I can see the problems its going cause in other builds.
they nerfed it to now sell you the power back - i hope that clears up your mind. always remember: war is good for buisness!
Edit: long reply, so for the sake of others in the thread the below is spoiler tagged:
Cryptic cannot make the game not "space bar to win" for those that find that reductive conclusion to be compelling, which you explicitly did. The two prime solutions are:
1. Rebalance the entire game to nerf the meta and shrink the gap between DPS maximum and DPS minimum. The reasons why the maximum is so extreme that it can result in "space bar to win" is because of the diverse network of system interactions that bypass the game's original scaling factors against extreme power (ex. crit, cooldown reductions, exotic damage, haste, universal console effects, starship traits). You cannot target a subset of consoles/traits to make the game feel more challenging to the top tiers of DPS. A total overhaul of content + underlying mechanics would in fact be necessary. And there is no universe where this would be a popular solution as the player reflex exhibited by any singular nerf is most often frustration, coupled with calls by the more incredulous player that Cryptic deliberately baited and switched them. Multiply that across every system effected with multiplicative effects from the scale of update (representing time investment punishing the top tiers of meta/investment that wasn't spent on other possible updates or bug fixes). The claim would be that Cryptic sold players on meta-expanding content for years (often focused around expensive ships to justify their expense) then nerfed all that to a point of balance associated with lower tier builds. This is a game-ending backlash as it decries investment in the game's core economic pillars and breaks consumer trust at a fundamental level amongst a core group of whale players.
Though the greater slight against the profitability/popularity of the game is apparently me saying don't buy X2 upgrades if you don't want X2 upgrades or don't build your ship for DPS exclusively when you have too much DPS...
2. Add a super elite mode, but given the fact that elite content is presently under-leveraged there's no plausible market for making a higher tier above that. Cryptic would first need to make existing elite content more accessible by bringing player builds up, on average, to create a demonstrable niche that could justify the development effort (when advanced/elite versions of TFO's is already significant effort that sometimes needs to be postponed for other development priorities).
There's also a marginal solution for specific content: 3) add a new significantly more difficult enemy type that pushes players even further. But the effect of this is to create an effective gatekeeper on new content. The vaadwuar already verge on this effect as they're a common wall for newbies to run into if they've followed the path of least resistance on their builds (rather than taking the initiative STO assumes players have with its systems, which is probably the greatest wall for STO's accessibility beyond core format vs. modern gaming conventions). The Tzenkethi and Mokai's upgrades over regular klingon have also not been popular by any stretch of the imagination. While some players would be thrilled with a notable bump in season difficulty, it would absolutely punish newer players, more casual players, those who simply don't find punishing gameplay fun (hence investment in STO as it is across most content), and the significant niche of players who only log in for new seasons (and thus lack the fundamental build capacity or interest for content that would please those that decry STO's easiness). These groups are comprehensively NOT considered in the cries that the game is too easy (as they're contrary evidence to a desired conclusion) and reinforce the point that this literally isn't all about you and your aligned interest group.
There is no good solution to making the game more difficult (beyond do it yourself through existing systems and different build priorities). All plausible suggestions are non-starters, at least at present. X2 upgrades are even a path towards #2, bringing the population up via more intuitive/accessible upgrade paths so that more difficult content. The first step towards any increase in difficulty is to increase the prominence of elite play in core content via greater accessibility of elite-capable power. Otherwise, you're creating walls to mandate micro and macro-transactions. And trying to promote elite's prominence was recently attempted with argument-voiding effects.
This is nonsense. There are also fleets and other social groups that run advanced content with friends (grouping in preferred content in the course of regular MMO socialization, per the Digital "3rd Spaces" dynamic). There is no possible way for you to claim that these effects are more prevalent for hard content such that they could compensate for the abysmal standing population through the regular TFO system (which would be improved IF elite had RTFOs as the population issues are exasperated by the same dynamics that the RTFO system sought to solve pre-Andre). Exclusive groups catering to elite players are just one nominal reason for forming said groups. The core behavior applies to all content with the flavor chosen reflecting the preference of the social group (even when actively sought out). The invisible masses fallacy cannot be invoked to spackle over statistical shortcomings in your argument.
The fact is that exclusive gear wasn't enough to move the needle long term, in addition to elite's boosted dil and mark payout. Cryptic created a new end-game grind focus on elite content, and while it boosted elite play for a short while it did not solve underlying issues with the desirability and accessibility of elite, resulting in significant deflation. There's no argument to make anymore that the rewards aren't enticing enough (as something that can be applied to the population) because we have just seen that criticism targeted via considerable development effort exceeding the expectations of those who prior cried out for more in Elite. The advanced consoles at the very least serve as bonus EC via the exchange, buffing the array of resources offered significantly. Ultimately, players habituating around advanced content for its lack of challenge (both in scaling effect and non-mandatory optionals) won out in terms of overall population dynamics which notably informs what content gets developed. Even if you could say there could be legions of folks playing elite in private channels, and that is vastly disproportionate in effect vs. other difficulties, look at where Cryptic spends their development effort for where the bulk of the STO population actually lies and where their resources are most impactfully spent. Content development is itself a data point on player preferences and it falsifies the argument you're trying to make here. Don't shy away from that.
Ie. space bar to win isn't a problem at all for players, in general. As far as we can possibly tell, they're actively gravitating towards it rather than pushing for a harder game. Even among invested players, the ridiculous heights you can push DPS is itself a rewarding build direction even as it nullifies all perceptible challenge in gameplay. Challenge instead comes from build performance, much like lap time in auto racing. There's no question that cars can get around a track, where the sport/fun lies is in how far the numbers can be pushed on there own relative scale. This is basic commentary on how things like DPS leaderboards work. The criticism of STO being "too easy" fails because the demonstrable tendencies of the population and alternative value sets on content appreciation aren't considered, ie. the needs of others. Those who find the game not challenging enough per their singular experiences, refuse to take any action to adjust the balance of the game themselves, and actively reject alternative viewpoints for not towing their desired line are running through a rut of habit and a waning appreciation for core content in any flavor which could mitigate their ennui (eg. specialized build challenges away from DPS, creative outletting, narrative which can nullify the issue or its significance on multiple counts). Eg. burnout.
It doesn't require hating the game to be in effect.
That's a strawman. You can absolutely obtain gear and invest time and money in the game pushing for things besides raw deeps. For example: the cyclone patrol escort. I picked it up in part to support flanking builds which is a playstyle that is inherently suboptimal (for forcing equipment trade-offs and a reliance on positioning/console activation that other builds don't require.) Picking up new content didn't result in a DPS expansion but a lateral build choice that, at the cost of DPS, resulted in an engaging style of gameplay (forcing more than space bar to win per personal build choices taken on the standard of what's more fun). On another character I'm also using the ship as a science vessel, preferring the build challenge of optimizing across contrasting build facets, for what power can be extracted from that compromised setup, rather than focusing on maximum theoretical deeps. Ie. the complaint that STO is too easy can be solved even while supporting the game. You just make different (and more appropriate) decisions with the tools given. For example: using X2 upgrade space for suboptimal but engaging consoles and traits (prioritizing gameplay effects over raw numbers) such as those that split build direction (which is how I've approached the kit module slot from captain upgrades. In ground I've also avoided "too easy" meta builds in preference to preferred gameplay and likely invested more in that than the vast majority of STO's population). That is an easy call if one is actually directing their build choices per their stated needs and priorities, rather than pushing DPS ad infinitum as if the game was still asking for that in any terms, despite evidence to the contrary that it isn't, and the deleterious effect that's having to one's gameplay appreciation.
The simple point to make is still stop blaming the game for bashing your own head into the same wall. No matter the vehemence of the objection, the problems stated can demonstrably be solved by players by their own means. Rejecting those experience is not a constructive approach to discourse. The underlying argument, that it should be the devs forcing these choices on players, is not responsible advice as it fundamentally misconstrues the role of the player in directing their RPG experiences. It presumes incorrect choices to problems experienced should be catered to by the devs by changing the game rather than players changing their builds and priorities. That's inclusive to the point that the game isn't fun enough for a given build direction.
This is a basic facet to build preference. Rejecting it will naturally result in less fun gametime. Ergo, tackle the fundamental problem rather than chasing perceived symptoms.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
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And as mentioned in the brick above (new reply to better separate discussion threads), that's exactly how I approached captain upgrade's kit module slot. Adding a 6th module along didn't push up the power of my builds but allowed me the space to make split-focused builds that combine to different playstyles rather than trying to get the most out of one. I became more versatile rather than conventionally meta-breaking. Other players certainly chose different but there's no power on earth that requires us to follow a tribal expectation for how we should engage with this content (ie. push for the top tiers of meta, per meta build philosophies). Do what works best for you across all dimensions of "best'.
I've been increasingly doing this in space too, such as in trying to make a Cyclone patrol escort function as a science ship AND an escort simultaneously and effectively. Another starship trait slot gives more flexibility for that. The only weakness in X2 IMO is the device slot. There aren't many things players can equip to make compelling use of that beyond a few staples and power trays are already filled to capacity on mid to higher tier builds. X1 device slot upgrades I only notice for escorts. For cruisers it usually goes unused.
A solution could be to create new devices with small proc'ed effects that don't flirt with conventional power increases, ex. minor minion spawn, healing, or debuff clearing on certain conditions; or non-combat effects like generating salvage, common doffs, themed loot, or generic admiralty cards at low frequencies. Alternatively you can require all distress transponders to be equipped for use to force more slot use without new content development (less popular route). It's not a major issue but as device slot expansions continue to be marketed I think there should be more done to make those slots desirable (ideally per fun new effects that don't require power tray action).
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Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
Do I really need another device slot? Probably not, though I suppose it is an easy way to pad out the upgrade without too much extra power creep. Whenever I have mentioned running with a device slot empty like that others have said they often do the same thing on their ships that start off with a lot of device slots too, so I am obviously not the only one.
An extra ship trait slot and an extra console slot are definitely useful, but only if it does not further widen the gap between fully upgraded T5s and T6s so hopefully it means the X2 upgrades can be used on T5UX ships too (in fact it would be nice of the X2 was slightly more effective on the T5UX ships so a T5UX2 would be even more in line with their T6 counterparts in light of the fact that it has become obvious that there are T5 ships that the devs have little or no interest in converting to T6 anytime soon (if at all).
As to what kind of token is used for X2 upgrades, it may be that part of the purpose of the X2 stuff is to drain some of the existing stock of X-tokens down a bit so that the filler events can still offer them without them too worthless by way of overstocking. If that is the case than it would make sense to just use the same tokens twice, and the doubled need for them would balance out the number of tokens the minor events give for at least the near future.
There were also one or two lockboxes that had devices in them that were based on consoles from C-store ships. I believe they were single-use however, and it was never continued with newer lockboxes.
Making some tweaks to their availability and adding more of such things could also be a way of making device slots more useful in space.
Personally I don't really use devices. I tend to balance my builds such and have, for certain scenarios, some additional Boff skills (such as EptE) trained so that I'm not dependent on stuff that needs to be refilled, after creating or crafting them separately every time they run out.
If more devices were made based on toned-down versions of consoles, or something of an auto-refill feature added, I'd be more interested in them. And the X-tokens would have three interesting features, instead of two good ones and a 'meh' one.
[3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.