rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,577Community Moderator
That's also quite subjective. One person's build may feel a major change from this, while another's won't. There's a lot of variables in play as not everyone runs the exact same build on the exact same ship.
That's also quite subjective. One person's build may feel a major change from this, while another's won't. There's a lot of variables in play as not everyone runs the exact same build on the exact same ship.
From one person you can see how much the dps has decreased.Just a previous log and new log.
If you still dont trust this , i can tell you that before my maelstrom without any buff was 10,000 dmg more.But now its only 8 on tooltip and lower at real battle.
That's also quite subjective. One person's build may feel a major change from this, while another's won't. There's a lot of variables in play as not everyone runs the exact same build on the exact same ship.
Maelstrom it self cant do that one shoot boss most of the time. It's require you to know something about the mechanism of STO and how to use it well.
To one shoot the boss , it basicly means that you know something about that.Meanwhile you know how to build or how to use.
Then without maelstrom , you can still do this thing.Though it's maybe difficult than this.
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,577Community Moderator
From one person you can see how much the dps has decreased.Just a previous log and new log.
If you still dont trust this , i can tell you that before my maelstrom without any buff was 10,000 dmg more.But now its only 8 on tooltip and lower at real battle.
One single data point does not prove anything. You need many.
Also note that the stats for space gear vary when viewed either in space or on the ground.
As mentioned before, the Maelstrom Torpedo is going to be tweeked quite a bit over time since its a brand new torp type.
To one shoot the boss , it basicly means that you know something about that.Meanwhile you know how to build or how to use.
Then without maelstrom , you can still do this thing.Though it's maybe difficult than this.
Hate to say it, but a single Torp Spread on a brand new character was able to oneshot entire groups of enemies. Yea it was on Normal, but that was through full shields too. Not even taking advantage of anything. Just a naked Torp Spread. And the Maelstrom Torpedo was supposed to be more strategic in its use. Based on a previous livestream the idea was that it would be a return to an original intent for torpedoes. Rather than autofire it every chance you get, choose WHEN to fire it, prefereably against a bare hull rather than agaisnt shields. If the data shows the torpedo was overperforming... then it should be addressed before it gets abused in some way.
They're still trying to figure out the balance point. They've gathered data, made a change, now they're going to gather more data.
And I think the core issue everyone is taking up forgets one thing...
"Stats subject to change"
Functionally its the same. Stat wise things may have changed but the degree of the change will depend on the individual because not everyone is running the same build. We're back to the data gathering phase of balance to see the impact of the change.
If people want their voices heard as well, constructive feedback is better than "change it back" or accusations of wrongdoing.
I'm not charging anyone, but this time Patch is really not "good".
It's not just me.
Because he is a bit like the previous Agony Redistribution.
Anyway, you said that a single data can not be used as evidence, very simply, the vast majority of people think so.
Including but not limited to my friends and High-End Dpser.
I can provide the data if you want.
One more thing, the new role, of course, can be like this.
You can also try using Hanger Pets or other torpedo add-on Torpedo Spread.
You'll find it's the same effect.
This is not Maelstrom's fault, probably because Cryptic did not consider low-level NPC.
Again, if my words make you feel like I'm accusing you or Cryptic, I apologize here.
Nerf 20% of Damage of Maelstorm, or even adding some CD at the same time, is acceptable.
Because the main use is still in, its high Spike Damage.
Why i cant send comment ?
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,577Community Moderator
Anyway, you said that a single data can not be used as evidence, very simply, the vast majority of people think so.
People claim this all the time, about people wanting to play PVP, or play KDF more than Fed, or any wanting (some feature that they want). It usually isn't true. 70% of players are pure Feddie Bear, almost no one wants PVP because we're filthy casuals, etc.
It's very important to you and some others, but most players don't care about the torpedo.
Anyway, you said that a single data can not be used as evidence, very simply, the vast majority of people think so.
People claim this all the time, about people wanting to play PVP, or play KDF more than Fed, or any wanting (some feature that they want). It usually isn't true. 70% of players are pure Feddie Bear, almost no one wants PVP because we're filthy casuals, etc.
It's very important to you and some others, but most players don't care about the torpedo.
Most players don't care about PvP, not torpedoes.
By the way , this torpedo makes even pure barbie player can kill some enemy more easier.
However, they reduced the cooldown, this is a BUFF, and they reduced the damage to compensate so you still got the same DPS...... so not a actually a nerf. The usefulness has not been halved one iota.
They also said when they first released the torp that it WOULD be adjusted. They don't want you one shotting enemies, which is what they said in the updated patch notes.
The cooldown was too long. This change is a huge buff, you'll still be able to obliterate the enemy.
Spencer did some test with the maelstrom on livestream post patch. It is not looking good. A lot of things can be worked out with theory crafting and math to see how it will pan out even before testing it, assuming the new data is correct (new base damage). Today it was confirmed the base damage was essentially halved.
There is still some spike damage, its still higher than what other torpedoes can do, but its been drastically reduced. I'm only seeing use for it under very high-end min maxed scenario where its down to the highest efficiency. I have no intention of slotting this torpedo anymore outside of that.
From the stream it already performs drastically worse under CF3 compared to other torpedoes, and outside of CF3, with torpedo spread, it still also loses to DMQ, which was and still is one of the most commonly used torp on DEW builds due to the 2pc bonus. Over time its use is going to be diminished to either novelty or only in scenarios where every bit of efficiency counts.
Again....the DPS has not changed, as per the patch notes. You're still get the same bang per second. They said the base damage was reduced....that is the damage per torpedo, but again the DPS is still the same. They reduced the base damage on purpose because it was one shotting bosses even with their shields up! The majority of Torps don't one shot BOSSES with their shields up, nor are they supposed too.
This is just lack of understanding of mechanics and I'm actually disappointed that the patch notes putting that "overall dps unchanged" is basically straight up misleading people because I've seen quite a number of comments like this.
You do realize right now that if the maelstrom torpedo were to receive another reduction in cooldown to have a 10s recharge (-33%) and have its base damage reduced by another (-33%) to "compensate", it would still have the same "overall dps unchanged" as when the maelstrom was launched, and the torpedo would be rendered useless?
It is NOT misleading. Like every other weapon, the DPS and damage per shot are shown in the tool tip (depending on your current location) which is the raw DPS and damage per shot, which is often much higher after buffs and affected by resistances, and in the case of torps, shields. You're complaining because the dev's have seen fit to correct the damage output to be a little more realistic and so shields are of some use again now you can't alpha bomb it. It's not a lack of understanding the mechanics on their part, it's that they've seen what the mechanics are doing and gone 'well, that's not right', and it's also your lack of understanding the weapon still is OP despite the buff to it's cooldown and reduction of it's damage per shot.
First you shouldn't be going by the tooltip for this Torpedo because the Tooltip has not been updated to reflect the changes done to the Torpedo...
as an Example the Maelstrom Torp was supposed to have its recharge shortened to 15 seconds. Yet the tooltip still Lists as "30 sec recharge"
This why its better to use the Combat Meter Logs ether built in one accessed via chat command or one the few external combat meters such as SCM
However, they reduced the cooldown, this is a BUFF, and they reduced the damage to compensate so you still got the same DPS...... so not a actually a nerf. The usefulness has not been halved one iota.
They also said when they first released the torp that it WOULD be adjusted. They don't want you one shotting enemies, which is what they said in the updated patch notes.
The cooldown was too long. This change is a huge buff, you'll still be able to obliterate the enemy.
Spencer did some test with the maelstrom on livestream post patch. It is not looking good. A lot of things can be worked out with theory crafting and math to see how it will pan out even before testing it, assuming the new data is correct (new base damage). Today it was confirmed the base damage was essentially halved.
There is still some spike damage, its still higher than what other torpedoes can do, but its been drastically reduced. I'm only seeing use for it under very high-end min maxed scenario where its down to the highest efficiency. I have no intention of slotting this torpedo anymore outside of that.
From the stream it already performs drastically worse under CF3 compared to other torpedoes, and outside of CF3, with torpedo spread, it still also loses to DMQ, which was and still is one of the most commonly used torp on DEW builds due to the 2pc bonus. Over time its use is going to be diminished to either novelty or only in scenarios where every bit of efficiency counts.
Again....the DPS has not changed, as per the patch notes. You're still get the same bang per second. They said the base damage was reduced....that is the damage per torpedo, but again the DPS is still the same. They reduced the base damage on purpose because it was one shotting bosses even with their shields up! The majority of Torps don't one shot BOSSES with their shields up, nor are they supposed too.
This is just lack of understanding of mechanics and I'm actually disappointed that the patch notes putting that "overall dps unchanged" is basically straight up misleading people because I've seen quite a number of comments like this.
You do realize right now that if the maelstrom torpedo were to receive another reduction in cooldown to have a 10s recharge (-33%) and have its base damage reduced by another (-33%) to "compensate", it would still have the same "overall dps unchanged" as when the maelstrom was launched, and the torpedo would be rendered useless?
It is NOT misleading. Like every other weapon, the DPS and damage per shot are shown in the tool tip (depending on your current location) which is the raw DPS and damage per shot, which is often much higher after buffs and affected by resistances, and in the case of torps, shields. You're complaining because the dev's have seen fit to correct the damage output to be a little more realistic and so shields are of some use again now you can't alpha bomb it. It's not a lack of understanding the mechanics on their part, it's that they've seen what the mechanics are doing and gone 'well, that's not right', and it's also your lack of understanding the weapon still is OP despite the buff to it's cooldown and reduction of it's damage per shot.
You do not seem to understand at all what made the maelstrom good. You still think the weapon is OP despite already losing to other weapons in typical scenarios and having its burst damage reduced by halve. You think, that just by shifting something to a state that makes sense (realistic? shields can't be alpha bombed again?) that means the end performance would be fine. I don't think you understand this line of topic and its issue and I don't see a point replying to you further more, so I'm not going to.
From one person you can see how much the dps has decreased.Just a previous log and new log.
If you still dont trust this , i can tell you that before my maelstrom without any buff was 10,000 dmg more.But now its only 8 on tooltip and lower at real battle.
One single data point does not prove anything. You need many.
Also note that the stats for space gear vary when viewed either in space or on the ground.
As mentioned before, the Maelstrom Torpedo is going to be tweeked quite a bit over time since its a brand new torp type.
To one shoot the boss , it basicly means that you know something about that.Meanwhile you know how to build or how to use.
Then without maelstrom , you can still do this thing.Though it's maybe difficult than this.
Hate to say it, but a single Torp Spread on a brand new character was able to oneshot entire groups of enemies. Yea it was on Normal, but that was through full shields too. Not even taking advantage of anything. Just a naked Torp Spread. And the Maelstrom Torpedo was supposed to be more strategic in its use. Based on a previous livestream the idea was that it would be a return to an original intent for torpedoes. Rather than autofire it every chance you get, choose WHEN to fire it, prefereably against a bare hull rather than agaisnt shields. If the data shows the torpedo was overperforming... then it should be addressed before it gets abused in some way.
They're still trying to figure out the balance point. They've gathered data, made a change, now they're going to gather more data.
And I think the core issue everyone is taking up forgets one thing...
"Stats subject to change"
Functionally its the same. Stat wise things may have changed but the degree of the change will depend on the individual because not everyone is running the same build. We're back to the data gathering phase of balance to see the impact of the change.
If people want their voices heard as well, constructive feedback is better than "change it back" or accusations of wrongdoing.
If this brand new character was shooting other enemies that was way before lvl 50, if you don't realize, when cryptic made every single t6 now available for use the moment you create your character, and you can slot in any of its universal console, leveling up became a breeze as the enemies was not tuned for that way back then. Nobody complained about just how easy it is now, because...why? Using anything thats sub level 50, or even normal difficulty, and trying to see how a 3 charge shot (it matters if its fired at 3 or 1 charge, because 1 is getting it back at 30second, one is getting back after 90second, and you really should see vast results for something that long to wait) maelstrom fits in there for comparison is not a good idea. Of course this maelstrom would be quite useful tool used for leveling, especially since the quantity of enemies for a lot of the earlier campaign missions are not the TFO-like of quantity, but so is many other consoles, and anything that you can reclaim at such low level.
Yes, if you have a bunch of event reclaims and a fleet of ships with universal consoles you can be way overpowered while leveling up.
I avoid that while leveling since it's fun for me to go back to old school STO once in awhile with just 2 beams and a torpedo with torp high yield and tractor or tahcyon beam as the boff powers, in the limited t1-t5 ships.
However, they reduced the cooldown, this is a BUFF, and they reduced the damage to compensate so you still got the same DPS...... so not a actually a nerf. The usefulness has not been halved one iota.
They also said when they first released the torp that it WOULD be adjusted. They don't want you one shotting enemies, which is what they said in the updated patch notes.
The cooldown was too long. This change is a huge buff, you'll still be able to obliterate the enemy.
Spencer did some test with the maelstrom on livestream post patch. It is not looking good. A lot of things can be worked out with theory crafting and math to see how it will pan out even before testing it, assuming the new data is correct (new base damage). Today it was confirmed the base damage was essentially halved.
There is still some spike damage, its still higher than what other torpedoes can do, but its been drastically reduced. I'm only seeing use for it under very high-end min maxed scenario where its down to the highest efficiency. I have no intention of slotting this torpedo anymore outside of that.
From the stream it already performs drastically worse under CF3 compared to other torpedoes, and outside of CF3, with torpedo spread, it still also loses to DMQ, which was and still is one of the most commonly used torp on DEW builds due to the 2pc bonus. Over time its use is going to be diminished to either novelty or only in scenarios where every bit of efficiency counts.
Again....the DPS has not changed, as per the patch notes. You're still get the same bang per second. They said the base damage was reduced....that is the damage per torpedo, but again the DPS is still the same. They reduced the base damage on purpose because it was one shotting bosses even with their shields up! The majority of Torps don't one shot BOSSES with their shields up, nor are they supposed too.
This is just lack of understanding of mechanics and I'm actually disappointed that the patch notes putting that "overall dps unchanged" is basically straight up misleading people because I've seen quite a number of comments like this.
You do realize right now that if the maelstrom torpedo were to receive another reduction in cooldown to have a 10s recharge (-33%) and have its base damage reduced by another (-33%) to "compensate", it would still have the same "overall dps unchanged" as when the maelstrom was launched, and the torpedo would be rendered useless?
It is NOT misleading. Like every other weapon, the DPS and damage per shot are shown in the tool tip (depending on your current location) which is the raw DPS and damage per shot, which is often much higher after buffs and affected by resistances, and in the case of torps, shields. You're complaining because the dev's have seen fit to correct the damage output to be a little more realistic and so shields are of some use again now you can't alpha bomb it. It's not a lack of understanding the mechanics on their part, it's that they've seen what the mechanics are doing and gone 'well, that's not right', and it's also your lack of understanding the weapon still is OP despite the buff to it's cooldown and reduction of it's damage per shot.
What we talk about isnt the number in your tooltip, it's real DPS.
You can go to patrol and test , The Maelstrom Torpedo has a massive DPS lost.
Nobody care the tooltip DPS, it's useless.
You can only gather data from try not see.After all, true knowledge comes from practice.
They literally have told you they have reduced the damage output per shot by half.
However, they reduced the cooldown, this is a BUFF, and they reduced the damage to compensate so you still got the same DPS...... so not a actually a nerf. The usefulness has not been halved one iota.
They also said when they first released the torp that it WOULD be adjusted. They don't want you one shotting enemies, which is what they said in the updated patch notes.
The cooldown was too long. This change is a huge buff, you'll still be able to obliterate the enemy.
Spencer did some test with the maelstrom on livestream post patch. It is not looking good. A lot of things can be worked out with theory crafting and math to see how it will pan out even before testing it, assuming the new data is correct (new base damage). Today it was confirmed the base damage was essentially halved.
There is still some spike damage, its still higher than what other torpedoes can do, but its been drastically reduced. I'm only seeing use for it under very high-end min maxed scenario where its down to the highest efficiency. I have no intention of slotting this torpedo anymore outside of that.
From the stream it already performs drastically worse under CF3 compared to other torpedoes, and outside of CF3, with torpedo spread, it still also loses to DMQ, which was and still is one of the most commonly used torp on DEW builds due to the 2pc bonus. Over time its use is going to be diminished to either novelty or only in scenarios where every bit of efficiency counts.
Again....the DPS has not changed, as per the patch notes. You're still get the same bang per second. They said the base damage was reduced....that is the damage per torpedo, but again the DPS is still the same. They reduced the base damage on purpose because it was one shotting bosses even with their shields up! The majority of Torps don't one shot BOSSES with their shields up, nor are they supposed too.
This is just lack of understanding of mechanics and I'm actually disappointed that the patch notes putting that "overall dps unchanged" is basically straight up misleading people because I've seen quite a number of comments like this.
You do realize right now that if the maelstrom torpedo were to receive another reduction in cooldown to have a 10s recharge (-33%) and have its base damage reduced by another (-33%) to "compensate", it would still have the same "overall dps unchanged" as when the maelstrom was launched, and the torpedo would be rendered useless?
It is NOT misleading. Like every other weapon, the DPS and damage per shot are shown in the tool tip (depending on your current location) which is the raw DPS and damage per shot, which is often much higher after buffs and affected by resistances, and in the case of torps, shields. You're complaining because the dev's have seen fit to correct the damage output to be a little more realistic and so shields are of some use again now you can't alpha bomb it. It's not a lack of understanding the mechanics on their part, it's that they've seen what the mechanics are doing and gone 'well, that's not right', and it's also your lack of understanding the weapon still is OP despite the buff to it's cooldown and reduction of it's damage per shot.
You do not seem to understand at all what made the maelstrom good. You still think the weapon is OP despite already losing to other weapons in typical scenarios and having its burst damage reduced by halve. You think, that just by shifting something to a state that makes sense (realistic? shields can't be alpha bombed again?) that means the end performance would be fine. I don't think you understand this line of topic and its issue and I don't see a point replying to you further more, so I'm not going to.
Oh I do understand, and I do understand why you're complaining and the fact you're refusing to even acknowledge why the Dev's have done this, despite them being open that they were going to do it. The torp is still OP and still out-performs most other torps, the dev's explained why they halved the damage but the DPS is still the same. Why can you not get it that the Dev's have done the right thing?
"You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
From one person you can see how much the dps has decreased.Just a previous log and new log.
If you still dont trust this , i can tell you that before my maelstrom without any buff was 10,000 dmg more.But now its only 8 on tooltip and lower at real battle.
One single data point does not prove anything. You need many.
Also note that the stats for space gear vary when viewed either in space or on the ground.
As mentioned before, the Maelstrom Torpedo is going to be tweeked quite a bit over time since its a brand new torp type.
To one shoot the boss , it basicly means that you know something about that.Meanwhile you know how to build or how to use.
Then without maelstrom , you can still do this thing.Though it's maybe difficult than this.
Hate to say it, but a single Torp Spread on a brand new character was able to oneshot entire groups of enemies. Yea it was on Normal, but that was through full shields too. Not even taking advantage of anything. Just a naked Torp Spread. And the Maelstrom Torpedo was supposed to be more strategic in its use. Based on a previous livestream the idea was that it would be a return to an original intent for torpedoes. Rather than autofire it every chance you get, choose WHEN to fire it, prefereably against a bare hull rather than agaisnt shields. If the data shows the torpedo was overperforming... then it should be addressed before it gets abused in some way.
They're still trying to figure out the balance point. They've gathered data, made a change, now they're going to gather more data.
And I think the core issue everyone is taking up forgets one thing...
"Stats subject to change"
Functionally its the same. Stat wise things may have changed but the degree of the change will depend on the individual because not everyone is running the same build. We're back to the data gathering phase of balance to see the impact of the change.
If people want their voices heard as well, constructive feedback is better than "change it back" or accusations of wrongdoing.
If this brand new character was shooting other enemies that was way before lvl 50, if you don't realize, when cryptic made every single t6 now available for use the moment you create your character, and you can slot in any of its universal console, leveling up became a breeze as the enemies was not tuned for that way back then. Nobody complained about just how easy it is now, because...why? Using anything thats sub level 50, or even normal difficulty, and trying to see how a 3 charge shot (it matters if its fired at 3 or 1 charge, because 1 is getting it back at 30second, one is getting back after 90second, and you really should see vast results for something that long to wait) maelstrom fits in there for comparison is not a good idea. Of course this maelstrom would be quite useful tool used for leveling, especially since the quantity of enemies for a lot of the earlier campaign missions are not the TFO-like of quantity, but so is many other consoles, and anything that you can reclaim at such low level.
I use consoles like those from the Vesta line and the Appalachia all the time while levelling. None of these things were as powerful as a Maelstrom spread though.
And those consoles usually have a two minute cooldown too. When using two torps, you could fire a spread... Every 15 seconds I think? They'd have only 1 charge, but even then they were still powerful enough to instantly destroy entire groups.
From what I've gathered here, some people don't like it that this has changed. As understandable as that may be, it's simply not reasonable to expect a weapon that allows one-shotting everything to keep performing that way.
I'll add my two cents here: bringing down bosses too easily is (in my long, active experience) a factor of the top 1% of builds playing content that's too easy. Ie. Advanced. In Elite such antics would be welcome but I've never seen it. The Mealstrom isn't alone in its boss-melting potential as existing builds can nuke an advanced boss in a second or less (and recycle power much faster and devastate more targets) and the maelstrom absolutely isn't enough by itself to create that potential. It was ALSO stated in the debut Ten Forward stream that big nerfs were unlikely given that Jonathan was happy with how the torp was testing (which absolutely would have found issues with singular item performance). Things change but a 50% damage and cooldown reduction is a big shift in item behavior that suggests the concept was faulty...which is irrational considering the care Jonathan put into this. Rather what we have must be emergent synergy from top builds (beyond what Jonathan would have tested with) creating edge-case boss melting in content not designed for that power level. I have high level builds able to stand out in Elite. I'm not one-shotting any advanced bosses, even with a high amount of torp build synergy, with the maelstrom. It's not an auto-win button that needed this paradigm-shifting nerf across all demographics.
I'd suggest the fault here lies with population distribution, making *big* alpha strikes problematic (in too easily killing bosses with the standard already being at instant-vaporization with similar levels of synergy) because appropriately balanced targets to those extreme builds are being made less available through elite TFO throttling. It's hell finding matches there, even with the population bump from advanced consoles we're enshrining the terrible dynamics in match finding that RTFO's were created to solve in the first place (and have been a VERY proven solution to). So folks looking to *play the game* under the highest difficulty setting consistently available naturally gravitate to advanced content rather than elite, creating wide issues as too much power is being levied at enemies not scaled appropriately to those builds.
Cryptic, you have systemic problem here in how you're managing population demographics. By refusing to implement Elite RTFO's because of an ideal (players *should* create new elite-grinding friend circles to be able to consistently find a match for them, random groups aren't something we want to encourage) which is refuted on a daily basis (players succeeding in random groups under existing parameters, looking for matches without fundamentally changing who they hang out with in and around STO) you manufacture problems of excessive power being applied to lower content because that's where your viable game is. Cue one-shotting bosses by this or other means (which has also resulted in additional negative player feedback from those feeling marginalized by over-powered players. The consequences here aren't restricted to somewhat incendiary nerfs trying to manage the worst excesses of mismatched players to difficulty settings. It's affecting the whole end-game.)
The Maelstrom torp one-shotting bosses isn't a problem of the singular torp, it's a problem of the bosses themselves and how you're managing your population demographics, Cryptic. You have a faulty paradigm with how elite TFO's are managed and its resulting in friction both directly (players trying, failing to get into Elite because of the lack of RTFOs) and indirectly (balance making unusual compromises to try mitigating edge-case behavior in lower difficulty content that is brought about by the practical unviability of regular elite TFO play.) Bosses aren't living up to boss status because of how player populations are sorting out, the maelstrom's problematic impact being tied to the greatest mismatches (beyond what even I can bring to the table per power as one yardstick for invested, high performing but not top tier players).
Don't blame the item, think through the ecosystem you've created and respond to a constructive human conversation that's trying to tell you what the problem is from the end-user perspective.
With an optimised torp-build, it was actually possible to destroy full groups on advanced with a single spread (or high yield, when shooting a single boss like a Tzenkethi dreadnought).
And the problem is a problem of the singular torp, not with the bosses. The Maelstrom was clearly an outlier, few other weapons deal over 1 million damage by themselves (yes, I've even seen those numbers on toons that weren't specced for or specialised in torpedoes at all).
Anyway, you said that a single data can not be used as evidence, very simply, the vast majority of people think so.
People claim this all the time, about people wanting to play PVP, or play KDF more than Fed, or any wanting (some feature that they want). It usually isn't true. 70% of players are pure Feddie Bear, almost no one wants PVP because we're filthy casuals, etc.
It's very important to you and some others, but most players don't care about the torpedo.
Most players don't care about PvP, not torpedoes.
By the way , this torpedo makes even pure barbie player can kill some enemy more easier.
Sorry, but overpowered stuff shouldn't remain hugely overpowered just so that pure barbie players can also shoot something.
STO can be played with all sorts of builds, the Maelstrom being grossly overpowered shouldn't be necessary at all.
As for the whole tooltip vs. actual damage discussion: damage was clearly reduced. Like I said, I've seen it deal over a million damage on many occasions before yesterday's patch. Today, it was still dealing hundreds of thousands of damage with each shot.
It's not just a regular quantum torpedo, as some are claiming. Players who claim this either have ridiculously overpowered quantum torpedoes, or they're estimating the Maelstrom's post-correction damage too low.
I'll add my two cents here: bringing down bosses too easily is (in my long, active experience) a factor of the top 1% of builds playing content that's too easy. Ie. Advanced. In Elite such antics would be welcome but I've never seen it. The Mealstrom isn't alone in its boss-melting potential as existing builds can nuke an advanced boss in a second or less (and recycle power much faster and devastate more targets) and the maelstrom absolutely isn't enough by itself to create that potential. It was ALSO stated in the debut Ten Forward stream that big nerfs were unlikely given that Jonathan was happy with how the torp was testing (which absolutely would have found issues with singular item performance). Things change but a 50% damage and cooldown reduction is a big shift in item behavior that suggests the concept was faulty...which is irrational considering the care Jonathan put into this. Rather what we have must be emergent synergy from top builds (beyond what Jonathan would have tested with) creating edge-case boss melting in content not designed for that power level. I have high level builds able to stand out in Elite. I'm not one-shotting any advanced bosses, even with a high amount of torp build synergy, with the maelstrom. It's not an auto-win button that needed this paradigm-shifting nerf across all demographics.
I'd suggest the fault here lies with population distribution, making *big* alpha strikes problematic (in too easily killing bosses with the standard already being at instant-vaporization with similar levels of synergy) because appropriately balanced targets to those extreme builds are being made less available through elite TFO throttling. It's hell finding matches there, even with the population bump from advanced consoles we're enshrining the terrible dynamics in match finding that RTFO's were created to solve in the first place (and have been a VERY proven solution to). So folks looking to *play the game* under the highest difficulty setting consistently available naturally gravitate to advanced content rather than elite, creating wide issues as too much power is being levied at enemies not scaled appropriately to those builds.
Cryptic, you have systemic problem here in how you're managing population demographics. By refusing to implement Elite RTFO's because of an ideal (players *should* create new elite-grinding friend circles to be able to consistently find a match for them, random groups aren't something we want to encourage) which is refuted on a daily basis (players succeeding in random groups under existing parameters, looking for matches without fundamentally changing who they hang out with in and around STO) you manufacture problems of excessive power being applied to lower content because that's where your viable game is. Cue one-shotting bosses by this or other means (which has also resulted in additional negative player feedback from those feeling marginalized by over-powered players. The consequences here aren't restricted to somewhat incendiary nerfs trying to manage the worst excesses of mismatched players to difficulty settings. It's affecting the whole end-game.)
The Maelstrom torp one-shotting bosses isn't a problem of the singular torp, it's a problem of the bosses themselves and how you're managing your population demographics, Cryptic. You have a faulty paradigm with how elite TFO's are managed and its resulting in friction both directly (players trying, failing to get into Elite because of the lack of RTFOs) and indirectly (balance making unusual compromises to try mitigating edge-case behavior in lower difficulty content that is brought about by the practical unviability of regular elite TFO play.) Bosses aren't living up to boss status because of how player populations are sorting out, the maelstrom's problematic impact being tied to the greatest mismatches (beyond what even I can bring to the table per power as one yardstick for invested, high performing but not top tier players).
Don't blame the item, think through the ecosystem you've created and respond to a constructive human conversation that's trying to tell you what the problem is from the end-user perspective.
With an optimised torp-build, it was actually possible to destroy full groups on advanced with a single spread (or high yield, when shooting a single boss like a Tzenkethi dreadnought).
And the problem is a problem of the singular torp, not with the bosses. The Maelstrom was clearly an outlier, few other weapons deal over 1 million damage by themselves (yes, I've even seen those numbers on toons that weren't specced for or specialised in torpedoes at all).
The problem is with bosses, if you can even call them that. Cryptic doesn't want to tune an advanced difficulty dreadnought boss with some 5m HP up when elite difficulty is there with bosses going 30m HP, not to mention high regeneration, and for many other reasons also. There is also a variety of reasons that elite difficulty is not appealing that high DPSers still play on advance difficulty.
You aren't seeing the current state of the game, where time to kill is low* and DPS and power creep is very high, and affects everything including the maelstrom. Dealing 1 million damage is not big at all. And with each shot being 3-4 times of a quantum at 3 charge, while being around 1.5-1.7 times of a quantum (also, don't forget that most quantum's recharge isn't 15seconds, its 8-10 seconds, while 1 charge of maelstrom is 15s) at one charge*, it's really just a slightly higher damage quantum at 1 charge, you can compare the tooltip with a similarly tiered quantum yourself. What maelstrom is good at, is borrowing what would be damage in the future, and put it all the front, which is why you are seeing high numbers. What you don't see is being unable to do damage afterwards for a long time due to its cooldown, that cannot be reduced. This doesn't change the fact that you are easily doing millions of damage all the time and over time with a decent build. Its why its a strategic weapon because it allows you to prioritize your target and buffs to spike a important group of enemy, obviously, a higher HP target or even bosses, while your other weapons that are better at sustained DPS can take care of lower HP targets. You are allowed to waste its attack on lower HP enemies and even multiple of them at once. They are going to get one-shotted, that doesn't change the fact that they were going to die really fast with your other weapons anyway. The weapon itself was never good at DPS over a long period of time and its performance depends on how much you take advantage of being able to store a great amount of damage. The 50% reduction to that has made it much harder to to take advantage of that now, so much that to me its simply just a math efficiency weapon for DPS-chasers, and for general use, as said earlier at its current performance its likely going to just be a novelty, or at most, just an "OK" weapon. I don't think anyone here bought the maelstrom torpedo for another similarly "OK" weapon.
I don't think anyone here bought the maelstrom torpedo for another similarly "OK" weapon.
I for once bought the ships and not the Torpedo. For me the Torpedo was a bonus and the nerf is not that big of a deal to me. However I agree it was a nerf not we halved the DPS and the Cooldown so that the DPS doesn't change at all. Cryptic either doesn't understand how their own math works on DPS or simply is to scared to call it a nerf. It is what it is a nerf. To me personally its not a big deal, I still use the torpedo and still get some decent DPS out but then I don't chase after DPS either. I know I can do enough damage to comfortable play on ELITE but most of the time I will not do this because Advanced Randoms are more rewarding. I used to chase the parts for new consoles but then when I found out that the 50/50 chance of a drop is complete rip off after getting 15 runs not 1 time a drop I gave up on them. I don't like wasting my time so I play as efficient as possible for me. All that is a different topic though. The torpedo was nerfed you will not create the same amount of damage as stated in the patch notes and if they would know how their game works they would have known that. Not sure why they decided to tell people that when its not the same.
C-Store Inc. is still looking for active members on the fed side. If you don't have a fleet feel free to contact me in game @stegi.
With an optimised torp-build, it was actually possible to destroy full groups on advanced with a single spread (or high yield, when shooting a single boss like a Tzenkethi dreadnought).
And the problem is a problem of the singular torp, not with the bosses. The Maelstrom was clearly an outlier, few other weapons deal over 1 million damage by themselves (yes, I've even seen those numbers on toons that weren't specced for or specialised in torpedoes at all).
Meta staples like DPRM and DOMINO still buff torps, so too any crit buffs. You don't need specialization in torps to achieve high numbers with them per top end builds, as prime damage staples (ex. crit, bonus all damage) still synergize. The problem is also situational, ie. applying a full power maelstrom into an appropriate target with costs in high numbers baked into the restraint required. Do thing correctly, get higher reward. That's basic RPG gameplay feedback. You don't have that dynamic with other kinds of torpedoes (even neutronic is forgiving when dealing with bosses) and thus you don't have the extra boost. Maelstrom was about creating this kind of gameplay dynamic which wasn't universally replacing the torpedo meta because of the recharge trade-off (and STO's largely wave based gameplay). Now that new option is being largely cut (with half the recharge time conservation becomes marginal, maelstrom becomes like any other torp) because some players are pushing peak situations to nicely anecdoted extremes in content not designed in principle to accommodate their power (generally and long before maelstroms).
"This is why we can't have nice things."
Killing full groups on a single spread is also small potatoes when you're discussing boss melting power. Gravimetric is for example still better at crowd control (especially with its superior recharge time which allows you to consistently use it in content with the thickest crowds).
The problem here is that ANY outlier in power (however its traded off with other mechanics) can easily enter "boss one-shotting" territory because the damage on offer in advanced is well in excess of advanced difficulty scaling. Players who should, by their numbers, be playing elite aren't because of the arbitrary road blocks placed on elite matchmaking (ie. not having RTFOs). That results in vaporized bosses, maelstrom or no, just as with any RPG that allows maxed out players to stomp on low level areas. This isn't a new problem, as evidenced for example in years AFK complaint threads from players who've been penalized for non-participation because of how much destruction some players are able to achieve (or complaints of just feeling cheated out of gameplay in those situations). STO has a core issue with difficulty progression at the highest level which creates systemic issues where (for one) something like Maelstrom becomes inviable (the 1% who're removing gameplay from other players by excessive power will achieve a new and very academic benchmark for that effect).
The tip of the spear is exceptionally pointy (with major trade offs in usability) with maelstrom, but the thrust is still coming from the rest of the build. Blunt it and you haven't done a thing to solve the underlying problem of boss skewering force. It just takes, say, 0.5 seconds and a weapon volley rather than one hit. Practical gameplay experiences have not meaningfully changed. What you need to address boss-thwomping is a systemic balance change to adjust the game's settings relative to player power. In practical terms (game rebalances are off the table): encouraging boss-melting players who're cycling around advanced ATM (because it's reliably playable) to move onto elite where the balance thresholds aren't so fine with respect to "does this nuke boss, yes/no?" (we're in a different ballpark of power). Removing maelstrom from the equation isn't going to meaningfully save bosses from said nuking. Better allocating players per their power, on the other hand, will absolutely have population wide effect on how long bosses are lasting (because maxed out players aren't stopping on low-level areas as frequently).
How you do that? Provide basic QoL support for elite difficulty, ie. random TFOs (making elite a viable option and thus reducing the boss melting population from advanced). It's that simple. Maelstrom getting a 50% damage nerf is an extremely high pull back on concept that can't be attributed to core behavior available to even moderate builds (easily detected in any of Jonathan's testing, it's not worth advancing in constructive discourse that he'd miss something like that, especially given his assurances on the debut stream). It's an over-reaction to a single behavior (nuking bosses, sans recharge context) when the principle reason for that is difficulty mismatch in player demographics (because of deliberate omissions with elite's feature support). We can dance around specific balance concerns as they arise (this won't be the end of it, as power creep increases the level of power necessary for boss one-shotting will only decrease), or go for the root cause and actually fix something here.
Then, outliers may not need such extreme course changes in their post-release tweaks.
Post edited by duncanidaho11 on
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I'll be honest, I preferred it how it was.
The trouble is that I can't really see how it works now because the cooldown (not the recharge) is still 30s.
This is part 1 of this write-up, as the number of words in it turned out to be too long to upload in a single thread.
My poll got closed. Care to add one to this thread?
I don't see an option to change it to a poll or have one added in the comments. Only seems to appear under making a new thread.
I know. That's why I started one.
But let's be constructive. If I come across as tetchy it's because I bought the entire bundle just for these torpedos and I like them quite a bit. The best thing about the maelstroms turned out to be the long recharge time; they take me back years to the ship that just happens to be the one in my sig (I probably haven't changed it in ages.), when there was much satisfaction to be had by lining up the perfect shot with the lobi temporal torpedo... not to mention rewinding time and doing it twice! So much fun, just like the maelstroms.
A lot of people on the thread have talked about dps. I'm not a dps chaser or a pvp enjoyer but I can see why either might not enjoy the maelstroms as they were released. The first thing I would do is hobble them more against players (-65% perhaps) and then consider nerfing them when used with Spread, or even preventing them from being affected by Spread altogether. My preference would be to have all ranks of Spread fire (roughly) the same number of torpedos, i.e. 3x4, 4x3, 5x2. Keep the strength against single targets for now.
as an Example the Maelstrom Torp was supposed to have its recharge shortened to 15 seconds. Yet the tooltip still Lists as "30 sec recharge"
30s is correct. If you fire one without any enhancements like Spread or High-yield you can't fire again for 30s, by which time you'll have two charges. Forgive me for banging on about this but it needs to be fixed.
However, they reduced the cooldown, this is a BUFF, and they reduced the damage to compensate so you still got the same DPS...... so not a actually a nerf. The usefulness has not been halved one iota.
They also said when they first released the torp that it WOULD be adjusted. They don't want you one shotting enemies, which is what they said in the updated patch notes.
The cooldown was too long. This change is a huge buff, you'll still be able to obliterate the enemy.
Spencer did some test with the maelstrom on livestream post patch. It is not looking good. A lot of things can be worked out with theory crafting and math to see how it will pan out even before testing it, assuming the new data is correct (new base damage). Today it was confirmed the base damage was essentially halved.
There is still some spike damage, its still higher than what other torpedoes can do, but its been drastically reduced. I'm only seeing use for it under very high-end min maxed scenario where its down to the highest efficiency. I have no intention of slotting this torpedo anymore outside of that.
From the stream it already performs drastically worse under CF3 compared to other torpedoes, and outside of CF3, with torpedo spread, it still also loses to DMQ, which was and still is one of the most commonly used torp on DEW builds due to the 2pc bonus. Over time its use is going to be diminished to either novelty or only in scenarios where every bit of efficiency counts.
Again....the DPS has not changed, as per the patch notes. You're still get the same bang per second. They said the base damage was reduced....that is the damage per torpedo, but again the DPS is still the same. They reduced the base damage on purpose because it was one shotting bosses even with their shields up! The majority of Torps don't one shot BOSSES with their shields up, nor are they supposed too.
This is just lack of understanding of mechanics and I'm actually disappointed that the patch notes putting that "overall dps unchanged" is basically straight up misleading people because I've seen quite a number of comments like this.
You do realize right now that if the maelstrom torpedo were to receive another reduction in cooldown to have a 10s recharge (-33%) and have its base damage reduced by another (-33%) to "compensate", it would still have the same "overall dps unchanged" as when the maelstrom was launched, and the torpedo would be rendered useless?
It is NOT misleading. Like every other weapon, the DPS and damage per shot are shown in the tool tip (depending on your current location) which is the raw DPS and damage per shot, which is often much higher after buffs and affected by resistances, and in the case of torps, shields. You're complaining because the dev's have seen fit to correct the damage output to be a little more realistic and so shields are of some use again now you can't alpha bomb it. It's not a lack of understanding the mechanics on their part, it's that they've seen what the mechanics are doing and gone 'well, that's not right', and it's also your lack of understanding the weapon still is OP despite the buff to it's cooldown and reduction of it's damage per shot.
What we talk about isnt the number in your tooltip, it's real DPS.
You can go to patrol and test , The Maelstrom Torpedo has a massive DPS lost.
Nobody care the tooltip DPS, it's useless.
You can only gather data from try not see.After all, true knowledge comes from practice.
They literally have told you they have reduced the damage output per shot by half.
However, they reduced the cooldown, this is a BUFF, and they reduced the damage to compensate so you still got the same DPS...... so not a actually a nerf. The usefulness has not been halved one iota.
They also said when they first released the torp that it WOULD be adjusted. They don't want you one shotting enemies, which is what they said in the updated patch notes.
The cooldown was too long. This change is a huge buff, you'll still be able to obliterate the enemy.
Spencer did some test with the maelstrom on livestream post patch. It is not looking good. A lot of things can be worked out with theory crafting and math to see how it will pan out even before testing it, assuming the new data is correct (new base damage). Today it was confirmed the base damage was essentially halved.
There is still some spike damage, its still higher than what other torpedoes can do, but its been drastically reduced. I'm only seeing use for it under very high-end min maxed scenario where its down to the highest efficiency. I have no intention of slotting this torpedo anymore outside of that.
From the stream it already performs drastically worse under CF3 compared to other torpedoes, and outside of CF3, with torpedo spread, it still also loses to DMQ, which was and still is one of the most commonly used torp on DEW builds due to the 2pc bonus. Over time its use is going to be diminished to either novelty or only in scenarios where every bit of efficiency counts.
Again....the DPS has not changed, as per the patch notes. You're still get the same bang per second. They said the base damage was reduced....that is the damage per torpedo, but again the DPS is still the same. They reduced the base damage on purpose because it was one shotting bosses even with their shields up! The majority of Torps don't one shot BOSSES with their shields up, nor are they supposed too.
This is just lack of understanding of mechanics and I'm actually disappointed that the patch notes putting that "overall dps unchanged" is basically straight up misleading people because I've seen quite a number of comments like this.
You do realize right now that if the maelstrom torpedo were to receive another reduction in cooldown to have a 10s recharge (-33%) and have its base damage reduced by another (-33%) to "compensate", it would still have the same "overall dps unchanged" as when the maelstrom was launched, and the torpedo would be rendered useless?
It is NOT misleading. Like every other weapon, the DPS and damage per shot are shown in the tool tip (depending on your current location) which is the raw DPS and damage per shot, which is often much higher after buffs and affected by resistances, and in the case of torps, shields. You're complaining because the dev's have seen fit to correct the damage output to be a little more realistic and so shields are of some use again now you can't alpha bomb it. It's not a lack of understanding the mechanics on their part, it's that they've seen what the mechanics are doing and gone 'well, that's not right', and it's also your lack of understanding the weapon still is OP despite the buff to it's cooldown and reduction of it's damage per shot.
You do not seem to understand at all what made the maelstrom good. You still think the weapon is OP despite already losing to other weapons in typical scenarios and having its burst damage reduced by halve. You think, that just by shifting something to a state that makes sense (realistic? shields can't be alpha bombed again?) that means the end performance would be fine. I don't think you understand this line of topic and its issue and I don't see a point replying to you further more, so I'm not going to.
Oh I do understand, and I do understand why you're complaining and the fact you're refusing to even acknowledge why the Dev's have done this, despite them being open that they were going to do it. The torp is still OP and still out-performs most other torps, the dev's explained why they halved the damage but the DPS is still the same. Why can you not get it that the Dev's have done the right thing?
You don't even know what DPS we're talking about. You always thought Tooltip's DPS was the real DPS.
I don't think I have anything to talk about with you. After all, you either not try or listen to pepole's word.
Only stick to what you think is right.
However, they reduced the cooldown, this is a BUFF, and they reduced the damage to compensate so you still got the same DPS...... so not a actually a nerf. The usefulness has not been halved one iota.
They also said when they first released the torp that it WOULD be adjusted. They don't want you one shotting enemies, which is what they said in the updated patch notes.
The cooldown was too long. This change is a huge buff, you'll still be able to obliterate the enemy.
Spencer did some test with the maelstrom on livestream post patch. It is not looking good. A lot of things can be worked out with theory crafting and math to see how it will pan out even before testing it, assuming the new data is correct (new base damage). Today it was confirmed the base damage was essentially halved.
There is still some spike damage, its still higher than what other torpedoes can do, but its been drastically reduced. I'm only seeing use for it under very high-end min maxed scenario where its down to the highest efficiency. I have no intention of slotting this torpedo anymore outside of that.
From the stream it already performs drastically worse under CF3 compared to other torpedoes, and outside of CF3, with torpedo spread, it still also loses to DMQ, which was and still is one of the most commonly used torp on DEW builds due to the 2pc bonus. Over time its use is going to be diminished to either novelty or only in scenarios where every bit of efficiency counts.
Again....the DPS has not changed, as per the patch notes. You're still get the same bang per second. They said the base damage was reduced....that is the damage per torpedo, but again the DPS is still the same. They reduced the base damage on purpose because it was one shotting bosses even with their shields up! The majority of Torps don't one shot BOSSES with their shields up, nor are they supposed too.
This is just lack of understanding of mechanics and I'm actually disappointed that the patch notes putting that "overall dps unchanged" is basically straight up misleading people because I've seen quite a number of comments like this.
You do realize right now that if the maelstrom torpedo were to receive another reduction in cooldown to have a 10s recharge (-33%) and have its base damage reduced by another (-33%) to "compensate", it would still have the same "overall dps unchanged" as when the maelstrom was launched, and the torpedo would be rendered useless?
It is NOT misleading. Like every other weapon, the DPS and damage per shot are shown in the tool tip (depending on your current location) which is the raw DPS and damage per shot, which is often much higher after buffs and affected by resistances, and in the case of torps, shields. You're complaining because the dev's have seen fit to correct the damage output to be a little more realistic and so shields are of some use again now you can't alpha bomb it. It's not a lack of understanding the mechanics on their part, it's that they've seen what the mechanics are doing and gone 'well, that's not right', and it's also your lack of understanding the weapon still is OP despite the buff to it's cooldown and reduction of it's damage per shot.
What we talk about isnt the number in your tooltip, it's real DPS.
You can go to patrol and test , The Maelstrom Torpedo has a massive DPS lost.
Nobody care the tooltip DPS, it's useless.
You can only gather data from try not see.After all, true knowledge comes from practice.
They literally have told you they have reduced the damage output per shot by half.
However, they reduced the cooldown, this is a BUFF, and they reduced the damage to compensate so you still got the same DPS...... so not a actually a nerf. The usefulness has not been halved one iota.
They also said when they first released the torp that it WOULD be adjusted. They don't want you one shotting enemies, which is what they said in the updated patch notes.
The cooldown was too long. This change is a huge buff, you'll still be able to obliterate the enemy.
Spencer did some test with the maelstrom on livestream post patch. It is not looking good. A lot of things can be worked out with theory crafting and math to see how it will pan out even before testing it, assuming the new data is correct (new base damage). Today it was confirmed the base damage was essentially halved.
There is still some spike damage, its still higher than what other torpedoes can do, but its been drastically reduced. I'm only seeing use for it under very high-end min maxed scenario where its down to the highest efficiency. I have no intention of slotting this torpedo anymore outside of that.
From the stream it already performs drastically worse under CF3 compared to other torpedoes, and outside of CF3, with torpedo spread, it still also loses to DMQ, which was and still is one of the most commonly used torp on DEW builds due to the 2pc bonus. Over time its use is going to be diminished to either novelty or only in scenarios where every bit of efficiency counts.
Again....the DPS has not changed, as per the patch notes. You're still get the same bang per second. They said the base damage was reduced....that is the damage per torpedo, but again the DPS is still the same. They reduced the base damage on purpose because it was one shotting bosses even with their shields up! The majority of Torps don't one shot BOSSES with their shields up, nor are they supposed too.
This is just lack of understanding of mechanics and I'm actually disappointed that the patch notes putting that "overall dps unchanged" is basically straight up misleading people because I've seen quite a number of comments like this.
You do realize right now that if the maelstrom torpedo were to receive another reduction in cooldown to have a 10s recharge (-33%) and have its base damage reduced by another (-33%) to "compensate", it would still have the same "overall dps unchanged" as when the maelstrom was launched, and the torpedo would be rendered useless?
It is NOT misleading. Like every other weapon, the DPS and damage per shot are shown in the tool tip (depending on your current location) which is the raw DPS and damage per shot, which is often much higher after buffs and affected by resistances, and in the case of torps, shields. You're complaining because the dev's have seen fit to correct the damage output to be a little more realistic and so shields are of some use again now you can't alpha bomb it. It's not a lack of understanding the mechanics on their part, it's that they've seen what the mechanics are doing and gone 'well, that's not right', and it's also your lack of understanding the weapon still is OP despite the buff to it's cooldown and reduction of it's damage per shot.
You do not seem to understand at all what made the maelstrom good. You still think the weapon is OP despite already losing to other weapons in typical scenarios and having its burst damage reduced by halve. You think, that just by shifting something to a state that makes sense (realistic? shields can't be alpha bombed again?) that means the end performance would be fine. I don't think you understand this line of topic and its issue and I don't see a point replying to you further more, so I'm not going to.
Oh I do understand, and I do understand why you're complaining and the fact you're refusing to even acknowledge why the Dev's have done this, despite them being open that they were going to do it. The torp is still OP and still out-performs most other torps, the dev's explained why they halved the damage but the DPS is still the same. Why can you not get it that the Dev's have done the right thing?
I don't think I have anything to talk about with you. After all, you not try or listen to pepole's word.
Only stick to what you think is right.
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,577Community Moderator
It goes both ways tempest.
BOTH sides need to be willing to listen to each other. Not accuse one of not listening because they don't happen to agree wholeheartedly.
This is part 1 of this write-up, as the number of words in it turned out to be too long to upload in a single thread.
My poll got closed. Care to add one to this thread?
I don't see an option to change it to a poll or have one added in the comments. Only seems to appear under making a new thread.
I know. That's why I started one.
But let's be constructive. If I come across as tetchy it's because I bought the entire bundle just for these torpedos and I like them quite a bit. The best thing about the maelstroms turned out to be the long recharge time; they take me back years to the ship that just happens to be the one in my sig (I probably haven't changed it in ages.), when there was much satisfaction to be had by lining up the perfect shot with the lobi temporal torpedo... not to mention rewinding time and doing it twice! So much fun, just like the maelstroms.
A lot of people on the thread have talked about dps. I'm not a dps chaser or a pvp enjoyer but I can see why either might not enjoy the maelstroms as they were released. The first thing I would do is hobble them more against players (-65% perhaps) and then consider nerfing them when used with Spread, or even preventing them from being affected by Spread altogether. My preference would be to have all ranks of Spread fire (roughly) the same number of torpedos, i.e. 3x4, 4x3, 5x2. Keep the strength against single targets for now.
as an Example the Maelstrom Torp was supposed to have its recharge shortened to 15 seconds. Yet the tooltip still Lists as "30 sec recharge"
30s is correct. If you fire one without any enhancements like Spread or High-yield you can't fire again for 30s, by which time you'll have two charges. Forgive me for banging on about this but it needs to be fixed.
Maelstrom isn't an issue in pvp, maybe to some degree for console players. Changing spread has nothing to do with the recent change of maelstroms and its issue. If you make maelstrom not affected by spread it immediately becomes a useless torpedo for almost everyone. I don't see what your trying to fix with what your saying.
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,577Community Moderator
edited July 2023
The only torp in game that doesn't work with Spread is the Hargh'peng Torpedo. Far as I know it also doesn't work with High Yield.
I don't count Cluster Torpedoes because those are just mine delivery systems. Not actual warheads.
Anyway, you said that a single data can not be used as evidence, very simply, the vast majority of people think so.
People claim this all the time, about people wanting to play PVP, or play KDF more than Fed, or any wanting (some feature that they want). It usually isn't true. 70% of players are pure Feddie Bear, almost no one wants PVP because we're filthy casuals, etc.
It's very important to you and some others, but most players don't care about the torpedo.
Most players don't care about PvP, not torpedoes.
By the way , this torpedo makes even pure barbie player can kill some enemy more easier.
Sorry, but overpowered stuff shouldn't remain hugely overpowered just so that pure barbie players can also shoot something.
STO can be played with all sorts of builds, the Maelstrom being grossly overpowered shouldn't be necessary at all.
As for the whole tooltip vs. actual damage discussion: damage was clearly reduced. Like I said, I've seen it deal over a million damage on many occasions before yesterday's patch. Today, it was still dealing hundreds of thousands of damage with each shot.
It's not just a regular quantum torpedo, as some are claiming. Players who claim this either have ridiculously overpowered quantum torpedoes, or they're estimating the Maelstrom's post-correction damage too low.
1 Million isn't high.
Most of Console or Torpedo can did that. It's really easy.
Maelstrom's biggest benefit was high spike damage. Before the patch we can use two HY Maelstrom to kill the ISE Final Boss in5 Sec.
That give us a very big advantage. There's nothing can like Maelstrom.
It's a new type of torpedo. Jonathan said.
A 20% reduction in damage and an increase in CD is acceptable.
But now the damage has reduced 50% and the DPS has dropped a lot.
Don't trust the tooltip cd , if you count buff or etc and try, you will find it's real.
Yes, its not reqular torpedo. Cause it's a new type.
Then how about other consoles ? Isn't the same ? Players who claim this either have ridiculously overpowered consoles.
I still adhere to my point of view, do not just read the text, to try for yourself, practice out of true knowledge.point of view, do not just read the text, to try for yourself, practice out of true knowledge.
Comments
From one person you can see how much the dps has decreased.Just a previous log and new log.
If you still dont trust this , i can tell you that before my maelstrom without any buff was 10,000 dmg more.But now its only 8 on tooltip and lower at real battle.
Maelstrom it self cant do that one shoot boss most of the time. It's require you to know something about the mechanism of STO and how to use it well.
To one shoot the boss , it basicly means that you know something about that.Meanwhile you know how to build or how to use.
Then without maelstrom , you can still do this thing.Though it's maybe difficult than this.
One single data point does not prove anything. You need many.
Also note that the stats for space gear vary when viewed either in space or on the ground.
As mentioned before, the Maelstrom Torpedo is going to be tweeked quite a bit over time since its a brand new torp type.
Hate to say it, but a single Torp Spread on a brand new character was able to oneshot entire groups of enemies. Yea it was on Normal, but that was through full shields too. Not even taking advantage of anything. Just a naked Torp Spread. And the Maelstrom Torpedo was supposed to be more strategic in its use. Based on a previous livestream the idea was that it would be a return to an original intent for torpedoes. Rather than autofire it every chance you get, choose WHEN to fire it, prefereably against a bare hull rather than agaisnt shields. If the data shows the torpedo was overperforming... then it should be addressed before it gets abused in some way.
They're still trying to figure out the balance point. They've gathered data, made a change, now they're going to gather more data.
And I think the core issue everyone is taking up forgets one thing...
"Stats subject to change"
Functionally its the same. Stat wise things may have changed but the degree of the change will depend on the individual because not everyone is running the same build. We're back to the data gathering phase of balance to see the impact of the change.
If people want their voices heard as well, constructive feedback is better than "change it back" or accusations of wrongdoing.
It's not just me.
Because he is a bit like the previous Agony Redistribution.
Anyway, you said that a single data can not be used as evidence, very simply, the vast majority of people think so.
Including but not limited to my friends and High-End Dpser.
I can provide the data if you want.
One more thing, the new role, of course, can be like this.
You can also try using Hanger Pets or other torpedo add-on Torpedo Spread.
You'll find it's the same effect.
This is not Maelstrom's fault, probably because Cryptic did not consider low-level NPC.
Again, if my words make you feel like I'm accusing you or Cryptic, I apologize here.
Nerf 20% of Damage of Maelstorm, or even adding some CD at the same time, is acceptable.
Because the main use is still in, its high Spike Damage.
Why i cant send comment ?
Probably ran into a spam filter if you were making multiple quick edits in a short amount of time.
People claim this all the time, about people wanting to play PVP, or play KDF more than Fed, or any wanting (some feature that they want). It usually isn't true. 70% of players are pure Feddie Bear, almost no one wants PVP because we're filthy casuals, etc.
It's very important to you and some others, but most players don't care about the torpedo.
Most players don't care about PvP, not torpedoes.
By the way , this torpedo makes even pure barbie player can kill some enemy more easier.
First you shouldn't be going by the tooltip for this Torpedo because the Tooltip has not been updated to reflect the changes done to the Torpedo...
as an Example the Maelstrom Torp was supposed to have its recharge shortened to 15 seconds. Yet the tooltip still Lists as "30 sec recharge"
This why its better to use the Combat Meter Logs ether built in one accessed via chat command or one the few external combat meters such as SCM
You do not seem to understand at all what made the maelstrom good. You still think the weapon is OP despite already losing to other weapons in typical scenarios and having its burst damage reduced by halve. You think, that just by shifting something to a state that makes sense (realistic? shields can't be alpha bombed again?) that means the end performance would be fine. I don't think you understand this line of topic and its issue and I don't see a point replying to you further more, so I'm not going to.
If this brand new character was shooting other enemies that was way before lvl 50, if you don't realize, when cryptic made every single t6 now available for use the moment you create your character, and you can slot in any of its universal console, leveling up became a breeze as the enemies was not tuned for that way back then. Nobody complained about just how easy it is now, because...why? Using anything thats sub level 50, or even normal difficulty, and trying to see how a 3 charge shot (it matters if its fired at 3 or 1 charge, because 1 is getting it back at 30second, one is getting back after 90second, and you really should see vast results for something that long to wait) maelstrom fits in there for comparison is not a good idea. Of course this maelstrom would be quite useful tool used for leveling, especially since the quantity of enemies for a lot of the earlier campaign missions are not the TFO-like of quantity, but so is many other consoles, and anything that you can reclaim at such low level.
I avoid that while leveling since it's fun for me to go back to old school STO once in awhile with just 2 beams and a torpedo with torp high yield and tractor or tahcyon beam as the boff powers, in the limited t1-t5 ships.
They literally have told you they have reduced the damage output per shot by half.
Oh I do understand, and I do understand why you're complaining and the fact you're refusing to even acknowledge why the Dev's have done this, despite them being open that they were going to do it. The torp is still OP and still out-performs most other torps, the dev's explained why they halved the damage but the DPS is still the same. Why can you not get it that the Dev's have done the right thing?
I use consoles like those from the Vesta line and the Appalachia all the time while levelling. None of these things were as powerful as a Maelstrom spread though.
And those consoles usually have a two minute cooldown too. When using two torps, you could fire a spread... Every 15 seconds I think? They'd have only 1 charge, but even then they were still powerful enough to instantly destroy entire groups.
From what I've gathered here, some people don't like it that this has changed. As understandable as that may be, it's simply not reasonable to expect a weapon that allows one-shotting everything to keep performing that way.
With an optimised torp-build, it was actually possible to destroy full groups on advanced with a single spread (or high yield, when shooting a single boss like a Tzenkethi dreadnought).
And the problem is a problem of the singular torp, not with the bosses. The Maelstrom was clearly an outlier, few other weapons deal over 1 million damage by themselves (yes, I've even seen those numbers on toons that weren't specced for or specialised in torpedoes at all).
Sorry, but overpowered stuff shouldn't remain hugely overpowered just so that pure barbie players can also shoot something.
STO can be played with all sorts of builds, the Maelstrom being grossly overpowered shouldn't be necessary at all.
As for the whole tooltip vs. actual damage discussion: damage was clearly reduced. Like I said, I've seen it deal over a million damage on many occasions before yesterday's patch. Today, it was still dealing hundreds of thousands of damage with each shot.
It's not just a regular quantum torpedo, as some are claiming. Players who claim this either have ridiculously overpowered quantum torpedoes, or they're estimating the Maelstrom's post-correction damage too low.
The problem is with bosses, if you can even call them that. Cryptic doesn't want to tune an advanced difficulty dreadnought boss with some 5m HP up when elite difficulty is there with bosses going 30m HP, not to mention high regeneration, and for many other reasons also. There is also a variety of reasons that elite difficulty is not appealing that high DPSers still play on advance difficulty.
You aren't seeing the current state of the game, where time to kill is low* and DPS and power creep is very high, and affects everything including the maelstrom. Dealing 1 million damage is not big at all. And with each shot being 3-4 times of a quantum at 3 charge, while being around 1.5-1.7 times of a quantum (also, don't forget that most quantum's recharge isn't 15seconds, its 8-10 seconds, while 1 charge of maelstrom is 15s) at one charge*, it's really just a slightly higher damage quantum at 1 charge, you can compare the tooltip with a similarly tiered quantum yourself. What maelstrom is good at, is borrowing what would be damage in the future, and put it all the front, which is why you are seeing high numbers. What you don't see is being unable to do damage afterwards for a long time due to its cooldown, that cannot be reduced. This doesn't change the fact that you are easily doing millions of damage all the time and over time with a decent build. Its why its a strategic weapon because it allows you to prioritize your target and buffs to spike a important group of enemy, obviously, a higher HP target or even bosses, while your other weapons that are better at sustained DPS can take care of lower HP targets. You are allowed to waste its attack on lower HP enemies and even multiple of them at once. They are going to get one-shotted, that doesn't change the fact that they were going to die really fast with your other weapons anyway. The weapon itself was never good at DPS over a long period of time and its performance depends on how much you take advantage of being able to store a great amount of damage. The 50% reduction to that has made it much harder to to take advantage of that now, so much that to me its simply just a math efficiency weapon for DPS-chasers, and for general use, as said earlier at its current performance its likely going to just be a novelty, or at most, just an "OK" weapon. I don't think anyone here bought the maelstrom torpedo for another similarly "OK" weapon.
Meta staples like DPRM and DOMINO still buff torps, so too any crit buffs. You don't need specialization in torps to achieve high numbers with them per top end builds, as prime damage staples (ex. crit, bonus all damage) still synergize. The problem is also situational, ie. applying a full power maelstrom into an appropriate target with costs in high numbers baked into the restraint required. Do thing correctly, get higher reward. That's basic RPG gameplay feedback. You don't have that dynamic with other kinds of torpedoes (even neutronic is forgiving when dealing with bosses) and thus you don't have the extra boost. Maelstrom was about creating this kind of gameplay dynamic which wasn't universally replacing the torpedo meta because of the recharge trade-off (and STO's largely wave based gameplay). Now that new option is being largely cut (with half the recharge time conservation becomes marginal, maelstrom becomes like any other torp) because some players are pushing peak situations to nicely anecdoted extremes in content not designed in principle to accommodate their power (generally and long before maelstroms).
"This is why we can't have nice things."
Killing full groups on a single spread is also small potatoes when you're discussing boss melting power. Gravimetric is for example still better at crowd control (especially with its superior recharge time which allows you to consistently use it in content with the thickest crowds).
The problem here is that ANY outlier in power (however its traded off with other mechanics) can easily enter "boss one-shotting" territory because the damage on offer in advanced is well in excess of advanced difficulty scaling. Players who should, by their numbers, be playing elite aren't because of the arbitrary road blocks placed on elite matchmaking (ie. not having RTFOs). That results in vaporized bosses, maelstrom or no, just as with any RPG that allows maxed out players to stomp on low level areas. This isn't a new problem, as evidenced for example in years AFK complaint threads from players who've been penalized for non-participation because of how much destruction some players are able to achieve (or complaints of just feeling cheated out of gameplay in those situations). STO has a core issue with difficulty progression at the highest level which creates systemic issues where (for one) something like Maelstrom becomes inviable (the 1% who're removing gameplay from other players by excessive power will achieve a new and very academic benchmark for that effect).
The tip of the spear is exceptionally pointy (with major trade offs in usability) with maelstrom, but the thrust is still coming from the rest of the build. Blunt it and you haven't done a thing to solve the underlying problem of boss skewering force. It just takes, say, 0.5 seconds and a weapon volley rather than one hit. Practical gameplay experiences have not meaningfully changed. What you need to address boss-thwomping is a systemic balance change to adjust the game's settings relative to player power. In practical terms (game rebalances are off the table): encouraging boss-melting players who're cycling around advanced ATM (because it's reliably playable) to move onto elite where the balance thresholds aren't so fine with respect to "does this nuke boss, yes/no?" (we're in a different ballpark of power). Removing maelstrom from the equation isn't going to meaningfully save bosses from said nuking. Better allocating players per their power, on the other hand, will absolutely have population wide effect on how long bosses are lasting (because maxed out players aren't stopping on low-level areas as frequently).
How you do that? Provide basic QoL support for elite difficulty, ie. random TFOs (making elite a viable option and thus reducing the boss melting population from advanced). It's that simple. Maelstrom getting a 50% damage nerf is an extremely high pull back on concept that can't be attributed to core behavior available to even moderate builds (easily detected in any of Jonathan's testing, it's not worth advancing in constructive discourse that he'd miss something like that, especially given his assurances on the debut stream). It's an over-reaction to a single behavior (nuking bosses, sans recharge context) when the principle reason for that is difficulty mismatch in player demographics (because of deliberate omissions with elite's feature support). We can dance around specific balance concerns as they arise (this won't be the end of it, as power creep increases the level of power necessary for boss one-shotting will only decrease), or go for the root cause and actually fix something here.
Then, outliers may not need such extreme course changes in their post-release tweaks.
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The trouble is that I can't really see how it works now because the cooldown (not the recharge) is still 30s.
My poll got closed. Care to add one to this thread?
I don't see an option to change it to a poll or have one added in the comments. Only seems to appear under making a new thread.
I know. That's why I started one.
But let's be constructive. If I come across as tetchy it's because I bought the entire bundle just for these torpedos and I like them quite a bit. The best thing about the maelstroms turned out to be the long recharge time; they take me back years to the ship that just happens to be the one in my sig (I probably haven't changed it in ages.), when there was much satisfaction to be had by lining up the perfect shot with the lobi temporal torpedo... not to mention rewinding time and doing it twice! So much fun, just like the maelstroms.
A lot of people on the thread have talked about dps. I'm not a dps chaser or a pvp enjoyer but I can see why either might not enjoy the maelstroms as they were released. The first thing I would do is hobble them more against players (-65% perhaps) and then consider nerfing them when used with Spread, or even preventing them from being affected by Spread altogether. My preference would be to have all ranks of Spread fire (roughly) the same number of torpedos, i.e. 3x4, 4x3, 5x2. Keep the strength against single targets for now.
30s is correct. If you fire one without any enhancements like Spread or High-yield you can't fire again for 30s, by which time you'll have two charges. Forgive me for banging on about this but it needs to be fixed.
You don't even know what DPS we're talking about. You always thought Tooltip's DPS was the real DPS.
I don't think I have anything to talk about with you. After all, you either not try or listen to pepole's word.
Only stick to what you think is right.
I don't think I have anything to talk about with you. After all, you not try or listen to pepole's word.
Only stick to what you think is right.
BOTH sides need to be willing to listen to each other. Not accuse one of not listening because they don't happen to agree wholeheartedly.
Maelstrom isn't an issue in pvp, maybe to some degree for console players. Changing spread has nothing to do with the recent change of maelstroms and its issue. If you make maelstrom not affected by spread it immediately becomes a useless torpedo for almost everyone. I don't see what your trying to fix with what your saying.
I don't count Cluster Torpedoes because those are just mine delivery systems. Not actual warheads.
1 Million isn't high.
Most of Console or Torpedo can did that. It's really easy.
Maelstrom's biggest benefit was high spike damage. Before the patch we can use two HY Maelstrom to kill the ISE Final Boss in5 Sec.
That give us a very big advantage. There's nothing can like Maelstrom.
It's a new type of torpedo. Jonathan said.
A 20% reduction in damage and an increase in CD is acceptable.
But now the damage has reduced 50% and the DPS has dropped a lot.
Don't trust the tooltip cd , if you count buff or etc and try, you will find it's real.
Yes, its not reqular torpedo. Cause it's a new type.
Then how about other consoles ? Isn't the same ? Players who claim this either have ridiculously overpowered consoles.
I still adhere to my point of view, do not just read the text, to try for yourself, practice out of true knowledge.point of view, do not just read the text, to try for yourself, practice out of true knowledge.