The vast majority of players on the forum are casual players that play the game on normal and a few venture over to advanced. They aren't Min/Maxers, DPs'er, or pvp players. The vast majority of the items made in this game are made to push you up to these heights because those same casual players will complain that they can't enjoy the game because of op players with op items.
So it really does not make sense to reason with people that just have no idea what they are talking about. They will continue to say, "Well it does this and this, in the content I run, so you should be happy." It wasn't designed for that content. If you are playing on normal and advanced you are the one creating the problem for those on normal and advanced. You are the so called min maxer running normal and oneshotting everything. The same as those going for Iso Mags so they can play normal content... if you have the traits and the ships and the knowhow to do that, please be so kind as to move over to elite and let the normal players play with the normal players.
You have to understand, though you may not intend to, that you are arguing as a layman "A gun is a gun and will kill people no matter how you use it" to a scientist that's responding, "Yes that is true, but you are trying to compare a hand gun to an assault rifle. It does not matter that they will have the same outcome, they can never and will never do the same thing."
The maelstrom was created specifically as per the creators themselves on the stream, was to make those splashy overkill numbers so that you would use them strategically. And for those that do not understand what strategically means, it means, for the biggest return. And that would mean boss. The opponent with the largest cache of HP. The issue is, they didn't raise the charge to 6, but left it at three. It only makes sense that if you are to halve everything else. Raise the cap to 6 so the people who wanted it for that strategic use can still wait the time they wanted and get that return they were promised. If they do not intend to do that then it should at the least be subject to cool down reduction so that players that are willing to, can still find value in it.
As it is now, the maelstrom is not good at the job it was supposed to fulfill. It falls way behind normal quantum torps that benefit from cool down. it falls woefully behind free r&d / rep torps in that same time, and lobi torps. It does not matter that you keep saying that in 1:30M it will do the same damage. I needed it to do all of that damage in 3 charges not 6. Because if that's the case i should just switch over to other torps that will do vastly more damage then this one does. It collapsed builds again, now we are right back to optimal ships for optimal builds that do not include the maelstrom. and that is what makes me angry. It destroyed tons of high end builds with the flick of a switch and all players can say is, "Well get over it."
It's not even a conversation worth having.
Yes, it sucks that they do sale eye popping items that are designed to be op, and it does feel fishy that even on the live stream when they were told that it would have this outcome they said it should be this way, So you spent your money on the item for that reason, we can't pretend we did not see this coming. As min maxers and dps'ers we already know we are just borrowing these items for the moment. Renting them for a few months. Till it reaches peak saturation to then wait for the next item to come along the process starts all over again.
They create paths, they remove paths. Circle of life.
The vast majority of players on the forum are casual players that play the game on normal and a few venture over to advanced. They aren't Min/Maxers, DPs'er, or pvp players. The vast majority of the items made in this game are made to push you up to these heights because those same casual players will complain that they can't enjoy the game because of op players with op items.
So it really does not make sense to reason with people that just have no idea what they are talking about. They will continue to say, "Well it does this and this, in the content I run, so you should be happy." It wasn't designed for that content. If you are playing on normal and advanced you are the one creating the problem for those on normal and advanced. You are the so called min maxer running normal and oneshotting everything. The same as those going for Iso Mags so they can play normal content... if you have the traits and the ships and the knowhow to do that, please be so kind as to move over to elite and let the normal players play with the normal players.
You have to understand, though you may not intend to, that you are arguing as a layman "A gun is a gun and will kill people no matter how you use it" to a scientist that's responding, "Yes that is true, but you are trying to compare a hand gun to an assault rifle. It does not matter that they will have the same outcome, they can never and will never do the same thing."
The maelstrom was created specifically as per the creators themselves on the stream, was to make those splashy overkill numbers so that you would use them strategically. And for those that do not understand what strategically means, it means, for the biggest return. And that would mean boss. The opponent with the largest cache of HP. The issue is, they didn't raise the charge to 6, but left it at three. It only makes sense that if you are to halve everything else. Raise the cap to 6 so the people who wanted it for that strategic use can still wait the time they wanted and get that return they were promised. If they do not intend to do that then it should at the least be subject to cool down reduction so that players that are willing to, can still find value in it.
As it is now, the maelstrom is not good at the job it was supposed to fulfill. It falls way behind normal quantum torps that benefit from cool down. it falls woefully behind free r&d / rep torps in that same time, and lobi torps. It does not matter that you keep saying that in 1:30M it will do the same damage. I needed it to do all of that damage in 3 charges not 6. Because if that's the case i should just switch over to other torps that will do vastly more damage then this one does. It collapsed builds again, now we are right back to optimal ships for optimal builds that do not include the maelstrom. and that is what makes me angry. It destroyed tons of high end builds with the flick of a switch and all players can say is, "Well get over it."
It's not even a conversation worth having.
Yes, it sucks that they do sale eye popping items that are designed to be op, and it does feel fishy that even on the live stream when they were told that it would have this outcome they said it should be this way, So you spent your money on the item for that reason, we can't pretend we did not see this coming. As min maxers and dps'ers we already know we are just borrowing these items for the moment. Renting them for a few months. Till it reaches peak saturation to then wait for the next item to come along the process starts all over again.
They create paths, they remove paths. Circle of life.
I want to add that you should be aware why the DPSers are still mostly on the lower difficulties. The most rewarding way to get marks and Dilithium from playing TFOs is RATFO. The rewards are so much better than playing anything else, its also easy for DPS people, and that the queue time is very very fast, many times you get queued almost instantly. Theres no good reason to run RNTFO, because lower rewards and...why? Lower difficulty at this point makes no sense. If you see DPSers in normal its because they don't really have a choice: its an event map. Then comes elite, not only is not every DPSer in the community parser DPS channels (don't forget, those are invite only and the popular ones needs certain DPS requirements), most of the runs will mainly be the DPS maps (its almost always ISE). Queuing for other queues in the TFO tab, you could be waiting, for a very very long time. There is no RETFO.
So you can't just "move over to elite". Trying to "not do too much DPS" in these lower difficulty TFOs, requires some rather absurd actions, like simply sitting around once a while in the TFO doing nothing, purposely not running CSV or EPG, perhaps simply just slacking off in runs, just barely putting any effort and just winging the TFO.
Also I wrote this writeup mainly for the devs to read it. Hence its extreme technicality.
All of this thread has been interesting to read. I'm not a DPSer. Although I did receive invites to the channels years ago. Never saw the point in acting on them. I'm not a min/maxer. I do not use IBM's Big Blue to examine every possible permutation of a build to achieve that last 0.0001% of damage. I don't post here very often any more either. Don't really have the spare time at this point in my life. I play STO because I like Star Trek. I also still play Armada 2 because I like Star Trek. "Where y'all going with this, Thunder?" Okay. Here goes.
My points are:
- Devs are gonna nerf what Devs are gonna nerf. And, the Devs don't really have to listen (except in the two cases listed below).
- Never, ever forget Cryptic is a business. Their goal is to make money. NOT to provide the perfect Star Trek experience. If you want their attention, stop spending money.
- Metrics. The people at Cryptic have to show their owners/shareholders people are playing Star Trek Online to justify expenses. I wonder what would happen if people just stopped playing STO?
- I'm thinking if players used the two leverage points listed above, the Devs would have no choice but to listen. Take a look at Corporate America lately and you'll find good examples of companies either responding or suffering the fallout of not doing so.
- Lastly, always remember Star Trek Online is a not-very-good MMO. People should not allow it to become a lifestyle choice. Because doing so makes someone a puppet on strings controlled by the Devs.
A six year old boy and his starship. Living the dream.
The vast majority of players on the forum are casual players that play the game on normal and a few venture over to advanced. They aren't Min/Maxers, DPs'er, or pvp players. The vast majority of the items made in this game are made to push you up to these heights because those same casual players will complain that they can't enjoy the game because of op players with op items.
So it really does not make sense to reason with people that just have no idea what they are talking about. They will continue to say, "Well it does this and this, in the content I run, so you should be happy." It wasn't designed for that content. If you are playing on normal and advanced you are the one creating the problem for those on normal and advanced. You are the so called min maxer running normal and oneshotting everything. The same as those going for Iso Mags so they can play normal content... if you have the traits and the ships and the knowhow to do that, please be so kind as to move over to elite and let the normal players play with the normal players.
You have to understand, though you may not intend to, that you are arguing as a layman "A gun is a gun and will kill people no matter how you use it" to a scientist that's responding, "Yes that is true, but you are trying to compare a hand gun to an assault rifle. It does not matter that they will have the same outcome, they can never and will never do the same thing."
The maelstrom was created specifically as per the creators themselves on the stream, was to make those splashy overkill numbers so that you would use them strategically. And for those that do not understand what strategically means, it means, for the biggest return. And that would mean boss. The opponent with the largest cache of HP. The issue is, they didn't raise the charge to 6, but left it at three. It only makes sense that if you are to halve everything else. Raise the cap to 6 so the people who wanted it for that strategic use can still wait the time they wanted and get that return they were promised. If they do not intend to do that then it should at the least be subject to cool down reduction so that players that are willing to, can still find value in it.
As it is now, the maelstrom is not good at the job it was supposed to fulfill. It falls way behind normal quantum torps that benefit from cool down. it falls woefully behind free r&d / rep torps in that same time, and lobi torps. It does not matter that you keep saying that in 1:30M it will do the same damage. I needed it to do all of that damage in 3 charges not 6. Because if that's the case i should just switch over to other torps that will do vastly more damage then this one does. It collapsed builds again, now we are right back to optimal ships for optimal builds that do not include the maelstrom. and that is what makes me angry. It destroyed tons of high end builds with the flick of a switch and all players can say is, "Well get over it."
It's not even a conversation worth having.
Yes, it sucks that they do sale eye popping items that are designed to be op, and it does feel fishy that even on the live stream when they were told that it would have this outcome they said it should be this way, So you spent your money on the item for that reason, we can't pretend we did not see this coming. As min maxers and dps'ers we already know we are just borrowing these items for the moment. Renting them for a few months. Till it reaches peak saturation to then wait for the next item to come along the process starts all over again.
They create paths, they remove paths. Circle of life.
I want to add that you should be aware why the DPSers are still mostly on the lower difficulties. The most rewarding way to get marks and Dilithium from playing TFOs is RATFO. The rewards are so much better than playing anything else, its also easy for DPS people, and that the queue time is very very fast, many times you get queued almost instantly. Theres no good reason to run RNTFO, because lower rewards and...why? Lower difficulty at this point makes no sense. If you see DPSers in normal its because they don't really have a choice: its an event map. Then comes elite, not only is not every DPSer in the community parser DPS channels (don't forget, those are invite only and the popular ones needs certain DPS requirements), most of the runs will mainly be the DPS maps (its almost always ISE). Queuing for other queues in the TFO tab, you could be waiting, for a very very long time. There is no RETFO.
So you can't just "move over to elite". Trying to "not do too much DPS" in these lower difficulty TFOs, requires some rather absurd actions, like simply sitting around once a while in the TFO doing nothing, purposely not running CSV or EPG, perhaps simply just slacking off in runs, just barely putting any effort and just winging the TFO.
Also I wrote this writeup mainly for the devs to read it. Hence its extreme technicality.
This is not me having a go. Your write-up isn't that techincal and it's word-salad. If you want to catch the Dev's attention, you need to be concise and you need to back up your points with clear evidence that the Dev's have not seen. Don't forget, the Dev's have way more data to go off that you have. I've read thousands of research papers and written too many papers before you say anything. This is just advice.
"You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
"Worthless"? Because you can't one-shot a boss with its shields up any more? Methinks you'd be more comfortable playing something from Bethesda, where you can download a God-Mode mod or cheat your way through with console commands (the code for the Debug Pistol in Fallout New Vegas is 001465A6).
The vast majority of players on the forum are casual players that play the game on normal and a few venture over to advanced. They aren't Min/Maxers, DPs'er, or pvp players. The vast majority of the items made in this game are made to push you up to these heights because those same casual players will complain that they can't enjoy the game because of op players with op items.
So it really does not make sense to reason with people that just have no idea what they are talking about. They will continue to say, "Well it does this and this, in the content I run, so you should be happy." It wasn't designed for that content. If you are playing on normal and advanced you are the one creating the problem for those on normal and advanced. You are the so called min maxer running normal and oneshotting everything. The same as those going for Iso Mags so they can play normal content... if you have the traits and the ships and the knowhow to do that, please be so kind as to move over to elite and let the normal players play with the normal players.
You have to understand, though you may not intend to, that you are arguing as a layman "A gun is a gun and will kill people no matter how you use it" to a scientist that's responding, "Yes that is true, but you are trying to compare a hand gun to an assault rifle. It does not matter that they will have the same outcome, they can never and will never do the same thing."
The maelstrom was created specifically as per the creators themselves on the stream, was to make those splashy overkill numbers so that you would use them strategically. And for those that do not understand what strategically means, it means, for the biggest return. And that would mean boss. The opponent with the largest cache of HP. The issue is, they didn't raise the charge to 6, but left it at three. It only makes sense that if you are to halve everything else. Raise the cap to 6 so the people who wanted it for that strategic use can still wait the time they wanted and get that return they were promised. If they do not intend to do that then it should at the least be subject to cool down reduction so that players that are willing to, can still find value in it.
As it is now, the maelstrom is not good at the job it was supposed to fulfill. It falls way behind normal quantum torps that benefit from cool down. it falls woefully behind free r&d / rep torps in that same time, and lobi torps. It does not matter that you keep saying that in 1:30M it will do the same damage. I needed it to do all of that damage in 3 charges not 6. Because if that's the case i should just switch over to other torps that will do vastly more damage then this one does. It collapsed builds again, now we are right back to optimal ships for optimal builds that do not include the maelstrom. and that is what makes me angry. It destroyed tons of high end builds with the flick of a switch and all players can say is, "Well get over it."
It's not even a conversation worth having.
Yes, it sucks that they do sale eye popping items that are designed to be op, and it does feel fishy that even on the live stream when they were told that it would have this outcome they said it should be this way, So you spent your money on the item for that reason, we can't pretend we did not see this coming. As min maxers and dps'ers we already know we are just borrowing these items for the moment. Renting them for a few months. Till it reaches peak saturation to then wait for the next item to come along the process starts all over again.
They create paths, they remove paths. Circle of life.
First: there are a lot of assumptions in your post.
"If you are playing on normal and advanced you are the one creating the problem for those on normal and advanced. You are the so called min maxer running normal and oneshotting everything."
Advanced is what the overall majority of the game's population plays. Elite queues rarely start with a random team.
I find it strange to argue that there's nothing wrong with an OP weapon, just because there is harder content to use it in. With that excuse, everything can be made OP and then we wouldn't have a problem. Except we would, because it makes no sense.
It's basically the same as suggesting that there should be more or harder elite content, because there is so much power creep. The problem is the power creep, or an OP item. Fixing that is the most logical solution.
Also: I find it funny that players keep suggesting that some people might not know what they're talking about - or that they are only looking at tooltips:
Anyway, you said that a single data can not be used as evidence, very simply, the vast majority of people think so.
People claim this all the time, about people wanting to play PVP, or play KDF more than Fed, or any wanting (some feature that they want). It usually isn't true. 70% of players are pure Feddie Bear, almost no one wants PVP because we're filthy casuals, etc.
It's very important to you and some others, but most players don't care about the torpedo.
Most players don't care about PvP, not torpedoes.
By the way , this torpedo makes even pure barbie player can kill some enemy more easier.
Sorry, but overpowered stuff shouldn't remain hugely overpowered just so that pure barbie players can also shoot something.
STO can be played with all sorts of builds, the Maelstrom being grossly overpowered shouldn't be necessary at all.
As for the whole tooltip vs. actual damage discussion: damage was clearly reduced. Like I said, I've seen it deal over a million damage on many occasions before yesterday's patch. Today, it was still dealing hundreds of thousands of damage with each shot.
It's not just a regular quantum torpedo, as some are claiming. Players who claim this either have ridiculously overpowered quantum torpedoes, or they're estimating the Maelstrom's post-correction damage too low.
1 Million isn't high.
Most of Console or Torpedo can did that. It's really easy.
Maelstrom's biggest benefit was high spike damage. Before the patch we can use two HY Maelstrom to kill the ISE Final Boss in5 Sec.
That give us a very big advantage. There's nothing can like Maelstrom.
It's a new type of torpedo. Jonathan said.
A 20% reduction in damage and an increase in CD is acceptable.
But now the damage has reduced 50% and the DPS has dropped a lot.
Don't trust the tooltip cd , if you count buff or etc and try, you will find it's real.
Yes, its not reqular torpedo. Cause it's a new type.
Then how about other consoles ? Isn't the same ? Players who claim this either have ridiculously overpowered consoles.
I still adhere to my point of view, do not just read the text, to try for yourself, practice out of true knowledge.point of view, do not just read the text, to try for yourself, practice out of true knowledge.
Like I said before: unmodified (white quality, the quality they have when claiming the ship) Maelstroms were allowing for destruction of entire groups even when below level 30, in a ship without any significant boosters. I don't need a tooltip to see I was doing this.
And there is no min-maxing there. No starship traits, no (for torpedoes relevant) personal traits, no spire consoles or whatever. You claim the torpedo, you blow up everything, it was as simple as that. It's fine if anyone thinks that's ok, obviously the people making this game think differently and I can't say I blame them for that.
The weapon was supposed to be strategic, but there's nothing strategic about something that can be used to destroy every enemy in sight.
So yeah, the whole idea of 'this nerf hits the casual players the hardest' just isn't very believable.
Casual players are unlikely to buy a $120 pack for a torpedo anyway.
Likewise, the claim that everyone who was doing well with this torpedo was some min-maxer, is just as wrong. If anything, it suggests that those complaining about the 'nerf' don't really have an idea what they're talking about.
The issue wasn't powerful players playing in too easy content. The issue was a torpedo that was too powerful. And no, it hasn't become useless at all, certainly not for more casual players who happen to own the item, as they will find that it's still a very useful weapon.
Now, that's arguably a suggestive thing - but so is claiming that something is useless just because you can't just as easily one-shot something anymore.
The vast majority of players on the forum are casual players that play the game on normal and a few venture over to advanced. They aren't Min/Maxers, DPs'er, or pvp players. The vast majority of the items made in this game are made to push you up to these heights because those same casual players will complain that they can't enjoy the game because of op players with op items.
So it really does not make sense to reason with people that just have no idea what they are talking about. They will continue to say, "Well it does this and this, in the content I run, so you should be happy." It wasn't designed for that content. If you are playing on normal and advanced you are the one creating the problem for those on normal and advanced. You are the so called min maxer running normal and oneshotting everything. The same as those going for Iso Mags so they can play normal content... if you have the traits and the ships and the knowhow to do that, please be so kind as to move over to elite and let the normal players play with the normal players.
You have to understand, though you may not intend to, that you are arguing as a layman "A gun is a gun and will kill people no matter how you use it" to a scientist that's responding, "Yes that is true, but you are trying to compare a hand gun to an assault rifle. It does not matter that they will have the same outcome, they can never and will never do the same thing."
The maelstrom was created specifically as per the creators themselves on the stream, was to make those splashy overkill numbers so that you would use them strategically. And for those that do not understand what strategically means, it means, for the biggest return. And that would mean boss. The opponent with the largest cache of HP. The issue is, they didn't raise the charge to 6, but left it at three. It only makes sense that if you are to halve everything else. Raise the cap to 6 so the people who wanted it for that strategic use can still wait the time they wanted and get that return they were promised. If they do not intend to do that then it should at the least be subject to cool down reduction so that players that are willing to, can still find value in it.
As it is now, the maelstrom is not good at the job it was supposed to fulfill. It falls way behind normal quantum torps that benefit from cool down. it falls woefully behind free r&d / rep torps in that same time, and lobi torps. It does not matter that you keep saying that in 1:30M it will do the same damage. I needed it to do all of that damage in 3 charges not 6. Because if that's the case i should just switch over to other torps that will do vastly more damage then this one does. It collapsed builds again, now we are right back to optimal ships for optimal builds that do not include the maelstrom. and that is what makes me angry. It destroyed tons of high end builds with the flick of a switch and all players can say is, "Well get over it."
It's not even a conversation worth having.
Yes, it sucks that they do sale eye popping items that are designed to be op, and it does feel fishy that even on the live stream when they were told that it would have this outcome they said it should be this way, So you spent your money on the item for that reason, we can't pretend we did not see this coming. As min maxers and dps'ers we already know we are just borrowing these items for the moment. Renting them for a few months. Till it reaches peak saturation to then wait for the next item to come along the process starts all over again.
They create paths, they remove paths. Circle of life.
First: there are a lot of assumptions in your post.
"If you are playing on normal and advanced you are the one creating the problem for those on normal and advanced. You are the so called min maxer running normal and oneshotting everything."
Advanced is what the overall majority of the game's population plays. Elite queues rarely start with a random team.
I find it strange to argue that there's nothing wrong with an OP weapon, just because there is harder content to use it in. With that excuse, everything can be made OP and then we wouldn't have a problem. Except we would, because it makes no sense.
It's basically the same as suggesting that there should be more or harder elite content, because there is so much power creep. The problem is the power creep, or an OP item. Fixing that is the most logical solution.
Also: I find it funny that players keep suggesting that some people might not know what they're talking about - or that they are only looking at tooltips:
Anyway, you said that a single data can not be used as evidence, very simply, the vast majority of people think so.
People claim this all the time, about people wanting to play PVP, or play KDF more than Fed, or any wanting (some feature that they want). It usually isn't true. 70% of players are pure Feddie Bear, almost no one wants PVP because we're filthy casuals, etc.
It's very important to you and some others, but most players don't care about the torpedo.
Most players don't care about PvP, not torpedoes.
By the way , this torpedo makes even pure barbie player can kill some enemy more easier.
Sorry, but overpowered stuff shouldn't remain hugely overpowered just so that pure barbie players can also shoot something.
STO can be played with all sorts of builds, the Maelstrom being grossly overpowered shouldn't be necessary at all.
As for the whole tooltip vs. actual damage discussion: damage was clearly reduced. Like I said, I've seen it deal over a million damage on many occasions before yesterday's patch. Today, it was still dealing hundreds of thousands of damage with each shot.
It's not just a regular quantum torpedo, as some are claiming. Players who claim this either have ridiculously overpowered quantum torpedoes, or they're estimating the Maelstrom's post-correction damage too low.
1 Million isn't high.
Most of Console or Torpedo can did that. It's really easy.
Maelstrom's biggest benefit was high spike damage. Before the patch we can use two HY Maelstrom to kill the ISE Final Boss in5 Sec.
That give us a very big advantage. There's nothing can like Maelstrom.
It's a new type of torpedo. Jonathan said.
A 20% reduction in damage and an increase in CD is acceptable.
But now the damage has reduced 50% and the DPS has dropped a lot.
Don't trust the tooltip cd , if you count buff or etc and try, you will find it's real.
Yes, its not reqular torpedo. Cause it's a new type.
Then how about other consoles ? Isn't the same ? Players who claim this either have ridiculously overpowered consoles.
I still adhere to my point of view, do not just read the text, to try for yourself, practice out of true knowledge.point of view, do not just read the text, to try for yourself, practice out of true knowledge.
Like I said before: unmodified (white quality, the quality they have when claiming the ship) Maelstroms were allowing for destruction of entire groups even when below level 30, in a ship without any significant boosters. I don't need a tooltip to see I was doing this.
And there is no min-maxing there. No starship traits, no (for torpedoes relevant) personal traits, no spire consoles or whatever. You claim the torpedo, you blow up everything, it was as simple as that. It's fine if anyone thinks that's ok, obviously the people making this game think differently and I can't say I blame them for that.
The weapon was supposed to be strategic, but there's nothing strategic about something that can be used to destroy every enemy in sight.
Universal Consoles from most of T6 can did what u said.
And there is no min-maxing there. No starship traits, no personal traits, no spire consoles or whatever.
So whats the point of your words ? I think its didnt show anything valuable.
Because , theres a lot of consoles or etc that can did what u said in that situation. Why ?
Because Cryptic didnt think about that part.
For old players , thats good.
Because that means you can make you new toon doing missions or anything else faster.
Or just make a jump start.
The main problem for why you think its OP because the current difficult isn't fit current powercreep.
The difficult was set years ago. But during these years , Cryptic keeps making new consoles/traits/ship itself.
People put these new stuff's number or mechanism together , get a high (whatever it is , ill say its DPS or DMG) build.
So the previous difficult maybe not work exactly for this situation , why ? Because its design for years ago.
So at this time , If cryptic want to fix that up , it needs to nerf a lot of things.
So if u see like this , you'll see that only nerf maelstrom is wrong. This is a temporary cure rather than a permanent cure.
Or it's not even a cure, its just promotes the development.
Back to the Agony Redistribution time. That was the same situation. Same step(nerf only one thing) and same people react.
So its a cycle.A problem will never be fix.
Also from a point of view of casual player a too powerful item can become a "must have" item and having a "must have" item you have to buy is really, really bad for the health of the game. I'm not gonna buy a 120$ (or what ever is the € equivalent of that) pack just to have a "must have" item, I'd rather quit, so nerfing an item so it's good but not a "must have" gets my approval.
Also from a point of view of casual player a too powerful item can become a "must have" item and having a "must have" item you have to buy is really, really bad for the health of the game. I'm not gonna buy a 120$ (or what ever is the € equivalent of that) pack just to have a "must have" item, I'd rather quit, so nerfing an item so it's good but not a "must have" gets my approval.
It's wont become a "must have" item.
Even if the 100% Damage of current Maelstrom Torpedo.
It need a strategy to work well. For casual player , you dont need this cause you dont chase dps.
This Torpedo is only good at Strategy. Without the damage its useless.
Why ? Because when this torpedo released , Jonathan said:
"the point is to be able to take 90s worth of quantom torpedos push through High Yield 3."
It's actually meh in daily use except deal with the Boss.
But if you have a proper build and you can play that well , you didnt even need this , Because you can kill the Boss easily without the Maelstrom Torpedo.
The point of this torpedo is it's cd cant be reduced. But we got a Spike Damage by that.
So if we lost the Spike Damage , then what's the meaning of this torpedo ? The cd cant be recuced , The torpedo moves slow, The price is expensive.
The vast majority of players on the forum are casual players that play the game on normal and a few venture over to advanced. They aren't Min/Maxers, DPs'er, or pvp players. The vast majority of the items made in this game are made to push you up to these heights because those same casual players will complain that they can't enjoy the game because of op players with op items.
So it really does not make sense to reason with people that just have no idea what they are talking about. They will continue to say, "Well it does this and this, in the content I run, so you should be happy." It wasn't designed for that content. If you are playing on normal and advanced you are the one creating the problem for those on normal and advanced. You are the so called min maxer running normal and oneshotting everything. The same as those going for Iso Mags so they can play normal content... if you have the traits and the ships and the knowhow to do that, please be so kind as to move over to elite and let the normal players play with the normal players.
You have to understand, though you may not intend to, that you are arguing as a layman "A gun is a gun and will kill people no matter how you use it" to a scientist that's responding, "Yes that is true, but you are trying to compare a hand gun to an assault rifle. It does not matter that they will have the same outcome, they can never and will never do the same thing."
The maelstrom was created specifically as per the creators themselves on the stream, was to make those splashy overkill numbers so that you would use them strategically. And for those that do not understand what strategically means, it means, for the biggest return. And that would mean boss. The opponent with the largest cache of HP. The issue is, they didn't raise the charge to 6, but left it at three. It only makes sense that if you are to halve everything else. Raise the cap to 6 so the people who wanted it for that strategic use can still wait the time they wanted and get that return they were promised. If they do not intend to do that then it should at the least be subject to cool down reduction so that players that are willing to, can still find value in it.
As it is now, the maelstrom is not good at the job it was supposed to fulfill. It falls way behind normal quantum torps that benefit from cool down. it falls woefully behind free r&d / rep torps in that same time, and lobi torps. It does not matter that you keep saying that in 1:30M it will do the same damage. I needed it to do all of that damage in 3 charges not 6. Because if that's the case i should just switch over to other torps that will do vastly more damage then this one does. It collapsed builds again, now we are right back to optimal ships for optimal builds that do not include the maelstrom. and that is what makes me angry. It destroyed tons of high end builds with the flick of a switch and all players can say is, "Well get over it."
It's not even a conversation worth having.
Yes, it sucks that they do sale eye popping items that are designed to be op, and it does feel fishy that even on the live stream when they were told that it would have this outcome they said it should be this way, So you spent your money on the item for that reason, we can't pretend we did not see this coming. As min maxers and dps'ers we already know we are just borrowing these items for the moment. Renting them for a few months. Till it reaches peak saturation to then wait for the next item to come along the process starts all over again.
They create paths, they remove paths. Circle of life.
First: there are a lot of assumptions in your post.
"If you are playing on normal and advanced you are the one creating the problem for those on normal and advanced. You are the so called min maxer running normal and oneshotting everything."
Advanced is what the overall majority of the game's population plays. Elite queues rarely start with a random team.
I find it strange to argue that there's nothing wrong with an OP weapon, just because there is harder content to use it in. With that excuse, everything can be made OP and then we wouldn't have a problem. Except we would, because it makes no sense.
It's basically the same as suggesting that there should be more or harder elite content, because there is so much power creep. The problem is the power creep, or an OP item. Fixing that is the most logical solution.
Also: I find it funny that players keep suggesting that some people might not know what they're talking about - or that they are only looking at tooltips:
Anyway, you said that a single data can not be used as evidence, very simply, the vast majority of people think so.
People claim this all the time, about people wanting to play PVP, or play KDF more than Fed, or any wanting (some feature that they want). It usually isn't true. 70% of players are pure Feddie Bear, almost no one wants PVP because we're filthy casuals, etc.
It's very important to you and some others, but most players don't care about the torpedo.
Most players don't care about PvP, not torpedoes.
By the way , this torpedo makes even pure barbie player can kill some enemy more easier.
Sorry, but overpowered stuff shouldn't remain hugely overpowered just so that pure barbie players can also shoot something.
STO can be played with all sorts of builds, the Maelstrom being grossly overpowered shouldn't be necessary at all.
As for the whole tooltip vs. actual damage discussion: damage was clearly reduced. Like I said, I've seen it deal over a million damage on many occasions before yesterday's patch. Today, it was still dealing hundreds of thousands of damage with each shot.
It's not just a regular quantum torpedo, as some are claiming. Players who claim this either have ridiculously overpowered quantum torpedoes, or they're estimating the Maelstrom's post-correction damage too low.
1 Million isn't high.
Most of Console or Torpedo can did that. It's really easy.
Maelstrom's biggest benefit was high spike damage. Before the patch we can use two HY Maelstrom to kill the ISE Final Boss in5 Sec.
That give us a very big advantage. There's nothing can like Maelstrom.
It's a new type of torpedo. Jonathan said.
A 20% reduction in damage and an increase in CD is acceptable.
But now the damage has reduced 50% and the DPS has dropped a lot.
Don't trust the tooltip cd , if you count buff or etc and try, you will find it's real.
Yes, its not reqular torpedo. Cause it's a new type.
Then how about other consoles ? Isn't the same ? Players who claim this either have ridiculously overpowered consoles.
I still adhere to my point of view, do not just read the text, to try for yourself, practice out of true knowledge.point of view, do not just read the text, to try for yourself, practice out of true knowledge.
Like I said before: unmodified (white quality, the quality they have when claiming the ship) Maelstroms were allowing for destruction of entire groups even when below level 30, in a ship without any significant boosters. I don't need a tooltip to see I was doing this.
And there is no min-maxing there. No starship traits, no (for torpedoes relevant) personal traits, no spire consoles or whatever. You claim the torpedo, you blow up everything, it was as simple as that. It's fine if anyone thinks that's ok, obviously the people making this game think differently and I can't say I blame them for that.
The weapon was supposed to be strategic, but there's nothing strategic about something that can be used to destroy every enemy in sight.
As you said yourself, most of the population is playing on advanced difficulty. Were most of the DPS players playing on elite, a lot of DPS related issues won't be a problem. But as I've explained above why even most DPS players are playing on lower difficulties, if you use a maxed out P2W build on lower difficulty that would otherwise be meant for elite, you are going to overpower your way through content, especially if your piloting is good. From what you've said so far, you seem to lack understanding on what the state of the game is. Most MMOs have created higher and higher "tiers" of difficulty over time to compensate for ever increasing new content thats released thats more and more power. STO doesn't. So over time the power creep has gone off the charts, its already an insta-kill fest on ground everywhere. But unlike other MMOs, STO doesn't incentivize or pressure you to need to get the better or best stuff, its a free open playstyle where even if you get the best stuff there is barely anything to use it for. Playing on elite gives you worse rewards than playing on advanced. The P2W is itself also why they have not added and RETFO. Because f2p yourself to elite level is very hard for most people. If you add a random matchmaking for only elite queues, you are going to get a lot of unpleasant experiences. Not to mention itself that scaling is bad also thanks to the lack of people playing elite TFOs outside of the few popular ones like ISE which leads to certain overscaled scenarios that is left to be as no one has complained about them, leading to some TFOs that are way more unfairly difficult. We've managed to overpower those issues on advanced difficulty, but on elite, you are going to now also need to P2W overpowered survivability in addition to DPS stuff otherwise you might find yourself easily getting one-shotted. So what we end up with is a massive powercreep on advanced difficulty in space and why this changes things is because normally, the devs would balance out the game, give many many balancing passes over long periods of time. If you haven't noticed, this game barely does that, not intentionally, but because they simply can't. There simply isn't manpower for the devs to balance the game, if you haven't noticed also, the game has been dwindling in content releases, while mostly only focusing on launching out new paid stuff. No new reps, no new battlezones, lack of new social areas, even new unique mission dropped items have also become rare. Hell, did you see T1-T4 and then T5 ships? They've stuck to T6 in what seems to be a permanent situation because they can't even handle normal tiering like most MMOs. I've sent multiple bug reports and I can see how they don't even have time to fix them, they have to prioritize what they think is important. For example, right now, you can totally still slot in 5x isomag advance engineering console, and 5x fleet spire locators simultaneously through a bug, ever since it came out it still isn't fixed. There is no end to people complaining about loadouts not working correctly. Some bugs don't even get fixed for years. So what you get is endless amount of new paid stuff that many of them comes out with some kind of bug, it was kinda a joke when doing debugging, that its almost certain with every single new patch (that they now don't even guarantee anymore that its at least once a week), there will almost certainly be at least 1 new bug created. The community has simply accepted the state of the game cos they have no choice, but that means you think that something is OP, and so nerfing it seems to make the game better. It makes the game worse, someone paid for that item, people get used to it, and its "fine", because there are countless of other OP items in the game and nobody is playing this game taking "balancing" seriously.
The people out there complaining about OP stuff are simply oblivious to the current state of the game and adding pressure to the devs to do balances that they know is simply impossible, hence needing to rely on knee-jerk reactions like this one. Most people, don't care, which is fine, but you seem to be one of those who simply don't know and care but in the wrong way. There are obviously stuff that "ruins immersion" or is simply far to game breaking that it obviously has to be fixed. This isn't one of them. You constantly refer to how at lvl 30 your maelstrom can "one shot groups of enemies", simply not understanding how 3 charges of what is essentially 7 HY3 damage even at lvl 30 is obviously going to kill certain low HP stuff at lvl 65, say a frigate with 40k HP, at the cost of waiting 90seconds to do that again, because what is 40k HP? And then multiple of those frigates if you use spread. Then concluding that means this is super OP and must be nerfed, completely oblivious to the rest of the game. Strategic? You realize there is nothing much else in this game than blowing up stuff? Its how efficiently you do that is what strategic means in this context.
I didn't want to bring up this card, but if you don't know, I am essentially the one of the top DPS players in the whole game, I've set multiple no#1 ranked parses and have at this point probably put in more time into DPSing than almost anyone else in the game at this point. From my point of view, you are the one that does not know what you are talking about. Casuals will always be fine whether something of theirs gets nerfed to oblivion or not, because they do not have enough of a vested interest to care for their stuff. But for others, especially those that paid for this, you are ruining it for them, for some justification that this game has now been better off. Which is how theres a running meme in-game that there is simply "no fun allowed", referring to that at this point its not even about balance anymore, people are simply trying to find fun in whatever way that is possible and that cryptic has made many bizarre decisions to remove those fun away.
If you join a COD match and get wrecked by some top tier skilled player, the game isn't ruined because theres many other matches to play, and that highly skilled players will always be in the small minority, just like DPSers in this game. Not only does it cost over a thousand of dollar worth of item, there is also the skill factor. In which cryptic simply do not have the capacity to balance items accounting for not only scaling but also skill / optimization in using, some items can be pushed further than others. After SBMM was added, now there is no randomness to the players that are matched, and it has turned into a purely competitive game. Similar to how some people here are asking for a "damage cap". Is that what you want? Low-skilled players in COD will not be affected by SBMM but people with more vested interest are going to have their fun taken away because now their KD is going to basically average out to 1. Do you want every single thing in this game to basically be just as bad as every other thing? For this maelstrom to be "useless", it doesn't actually need to perform bad. It simply just needs to be "another quantum", which as more test are going along, its basically what it is after this patch. If this maelstrom was launched this way people would get to decide if they want to buy a novelty item or not, but the maelstrom clearly wasn't "just another quantum" when it came out and that is what people bought it for. Both for that performance and for that fun. And now that has been ruined.
definitely not reading the wall '0 text, and just skimming the multiple pages, but if it still takes care of the frigates in gon'cra and the dyson sphere, I'm good.
Exactly. You get it because you know what you are talking about. Couldn't have said it better myself. Though I assume the writing is a bit rough because it is blocky.
But sadly it is a moot point. The vast sum of players on this forum are not here to be reasoned with, or in the business of having their minds changed with a good faith discussion on almost any topic, especially this person in particular.
It does not matter, how much you reason to them, that this item is just an arrow in your quiver, to bring down an elephant, in something like ISE or any elite and is not having the effects they are saying it does. They will point back to their Normal and advanced runs and say, well i am doing X in here. They are doing 5 digit or in some cases 6 digit attacks and saying its OP while telling you at the same time they are running normal content or advanced if they are feeling randy. Not noticing the issue there. While you're in elite looking around for this so called "I win." button and a random NPC is riverdancing on your face.
You then try your best to explain to them that of course it doesn't matter to you, because in your eyes you are using a bazooka to swat a fly, now you are using a grenade. And that's fine, your money, your game, but they are still just flies. Yet I am now going from using an Arrow against a charging elephant, to using a toothpick. The outcomes are not equal for us who paid the same amount. How can you be okay with taking from me, yet when i say, well make the game harder, that's somehow an affront against you and I'm being elitist? Yet, you're a grown man in a mascot suit, laughing about how easy it is to score on a child's pop warner football team.
Thus, when i was saying if you have these abilities, and you are producing these outcomes then you need to move over to elite, then you will understand that what you are saying is nonsense. If you are saying you are ok with this item being nerfed because you are still oneshotting things, then the content you are doing is not up to snuff. It was mainly in response to some of the players saying how op it is. These were some of the same players a few months back complaining how phantom DPs'ers were ruining their normal runs, to then turn around and tell you they are using items like the maelstrom in normal content... Madness.
I understand that in events we have to do normal, I also personally like to theory craft and test builds in Pahvo and Dranuur advanced where my position there as a crafter is needed and does not diminish anyone's fun. But to complain how op players are destroying normal then announce you are using items that over power that normal content is infuriating and they are blissfully unaware of that dynamic.
I assure you, those players saying they are oneshotting bosses are doing so in normal and even then you need a build specifically subject to that phenomenon. You are not opening it out of the box and oneshotting bosses.
You need thousands of dollars worth of content, thousands of hours of gameplay, thousands of hours of theory crafting, thousands of hours of testing to produce that outcome. And i find it hard to believe specific people are doing that and arguing for it to be taken away.
And the people paying those thousands of dollars are not the common players. Nor the casuals. They are the pvp'ers the dps'ers the min / maxers, the thoerysmiths. And to be ok, with robbing players, that have shown you the best way to use items, shown you the value of things, walked the path before you so you wouldn't have to make that mistake, is nonsensical to me. These people are the same people that told you to get the maelstrom in the first place or else how the hell would you know?
That is why I state that it is meaningless. That is not to say that it is not worth doing. You have to always push back on these people because they are just wrong. They are wrong in their argument, they are wrong in their methods, they wrong in their standards. It might make you feel like you are the scientist in don't look up, but you have to continue to ring the alarm until the asteroid hits. And also you have to remember, we are only renting these items, because these same players will always ensure we can never own them. So we have a duty to argue our right to own as well. Because our money is worth just as much, our time, our effort.
Exactly. You get it because you know what you are talking about. Couldn't have said it better myself. Though I assume the writing is a bit rough because it is blocky.
But sadly it is a moot point. The vast sum of players on this forum are not here to be reasoned with, or in the business of having their minds changed with a good faith discussion on almost any topic, especially this person in particular.
It does not matter, how much you reason to them, that this item is just an arrow in your quiver, to bring down an elephant, in something like ISE or any elite and is not having the effects they are saying it does. They will point back to their Normal and advanced runs and say, well i am doing X in here. They are doing 5 digit or in some cases 6 digit attacks and saying its OP while telling you at the same time they are running normal content or advanced if they are feeling randy. Not noticing the issue there. While you're in elite looking around for this so called "I win." button and a random NPC is riverdancing on your face.
You then try your best to explain to them that of course it doesn't matter to you, because in your eyes you are using a bazooka to swat a fly, now you are using a grenade. And that's fine, your money, your game, but they are still just flies. Yet I am now going from using an Arrow against a charging elephant, to using a toothpick. The outcomes are not equal for us who paid the same amount. How can you be okay with taking from me, yet when i say, well make the game harder, that's somehow an affront against you and I'm being elitist? Yet, you're a grown man in a mascot suit, laughing about how easy it is to score on a child's pop warner football team.
Thus, when i was saying if you have these abilities, and you are producing these outcomes then you need to move over to elite, then you will understand that what you are saying is nonsense. If you are saying you are ok with this item being nerfed because you are still oneshotting things, then the content you are doing is not up to snuff. It was mainly in response to some of the players saying how op it is. These were some of the same players a few months back complaining how phantom DPs'ers were ruining their normal runs, to then turn around and tell you they are using items like the maelstrom in normal content... Madness.
I understand that in events we have to do normal, I also personally like to theory craft and test builds in Pahvo and Dranuur advanced where my position there as a crafter is needed and does not diminish anyone's fun. But to complain how op players are destroying normal then announce you are using items that over power that normal content is infuriating and they are blissfully unaware of that dynamic.
I assure you, those players saying they are oneshotting bosses are doing so in normal and even then you need a build specifically subject to that phenomenon. You are not opening it out of the box and oneshotting bosses.
You need thousands of dollars worth of content, thousands of hours of gameplay, thousands of hours of theory crafting, thousands of hours of testing to produce that outcome. And i find it hard to believe specific people are doing that and arguing for it to be taken away.
And the people paying those thousands of dollars are not the common players. Nor the casuals. They are the pvp'ers the dps'ers the min / maxers, the thoerysmiths. And to be ok, with robbing players, that have shown you the best way to use items, shown you the value of things, walked the path before you so you wouldn't have to make that mistake, is nonsensical to me. These people are the same people that told you to get the maelstrom in the first place or else how the hell would you know?
That is why I state that it is meaningless. That is not to say that it is not worth doing. You have to always push back on these people because they are just wrong. They are wrong in their argument, they are wrong in their methods, they wrong in their standards. It might make you feel like you are the scientist in don't look up, but you have to continue to ring the alarm until the asteroid hits. And also you have to remember, we are only renting these items, because these same players will always ensure we can never own them. So we have a duty to argue our right to own as well. Because our money is worth just as much, our time, our effort.
Pretty much it. I never really intended to have a discussion here, I immediately started writing this as soon as the halving of the base damage was confirmed as soon as server went online. It was meant just for the developers to read it. I know that if it was basically just another post about "big nerf, and nerf is bad", it would be pointless. So I've focused as straight forward down to the mechanics of how the maelstrom was good, and the consequence if left in the current way, and because this is a major nerf similar to the big one back then in agony redistributor, the 2nd part was to explain how there are some things you shouldn't do when it comes to these kinds of things. I don't know what are the priorities or issues that cryptic's faces in this specific issue, but all I can do is simply point out the consequence if left this way with my knowledge of DPS, and if this is an acceptable consequence because of some bigger priority that cryptic needs resolving, then so be it and nothing much else I can do.
Totally get what your saying with the futility of trying to reason with some of the folks here. Though its definitely infuriating to see someone, supposedly been playing for 12 years and with what, 5000 post here? Calling this a buff, and saying its too long to read, but then completely missing the point that I've painstakingly pointed, and having no understanding of what the issue is with what the devs just changed and then continuing to double down on that. As you can see, I barely hang around here, most of my post is mostly for debugging. And even that has slowed down to a crawl because I've started to see how much bugs they can really handle. Supposedly with my knowledge and skill in DPS, I would have some things to say in that not too long ago DPS thread titled "Too much DPS". But I didn't because, people that has a pretty high vested interest in DPSing in STO and obviously knows there are issues with people having disparities in performance being matched together, also knows that the bottleneck for solutions to this issues is down to the capacity of the devs. Until the devs can show changes in their capacity to make larger changes to the game, there is really nothing much to say and or discuss, and we are going to be stuck with these issues for a long long time.
Although now that I've once in a long time post a discussion here, and quickly been bombarded with many anti-DPS sentiments mostly from people who after what they've said, have little understanding of the issue, and as you've very well explained the fallacy and hypocrisy in their way of thinking, I'd say there isn't really any point trying to push back to these people either. If you've not noticed, most of the top Dpsers (including me), have outright simply stopped trying to educate people on min-max meta anymore and stopped trying to spread awareness for it. Top pvpers are still doing it for pvp meta, they want more people in, though it seems to me eventually they gonna face the same issue either, just that pvp is too small atm, but for PVE Dpsers we've mostly given up. Sure Dpsers will still help people on basics and improving their gameplay, but not the other end. There is barely anywhere in the whole site or discord channels that you can find any more updated meta stuff with our current new toys, and also how it works and the why. We've been punished only by trying to spread knowledge of such stuff. Cryptic can have their unfiltered, unadulterated and uneducated opinions of anti-dps sentiments, which I doubt will act as very good feedback for cryptic's use. So, gatekeeping it is. Those who have expressed interest would still be in the know, those who isn't wouldn't.
Yeah. It sucks. I enjoy it so much. Theory crafting.Infinite minefeilds, Permanent sheild decoupling, building effects here and there. I enjoy it and want to spread it to the masses. Though admittedly most of that does end with nerfs because it is a little game breaking here and there.
More and more everyday you have to start closing doors and blocking paths.
I would state when a person would ask what is better, which is the best, what should I do. Well, if you got this item it automatically does A and B and since it does A and B for you, you can remove those from your tray and can now focus on C and E. That will have a massive effect on F and G and you might enjoy it. Yet instead of being enlightened to a new type of game play, you are often met with nonsense like Meta doesn't exist, or I should be able to play how I want to play.
Which is fine, but i shouldn't have to listen to you complain about the outcomes of how you wanted to play. Don't cry out how you spent your yearly token on TRIBBLE, don't complain about how you wasted 1B+ on a ship, How you wasted Zen, Di, or Lobi on trash. I should be able to play the game without hearing about it.
If I have to shut up about the META, then you should have to shut up about your decisions. Seems fair.
I imagne its like being a regulator and you are talking to a home builder, you explain to them the best way to build their house up to code which would be the quickest, cheapest way, to reach that standard of living they want. They then yell at you they will build their house the way they want. Then later on once it's vastly over budget, under-performing, and just a raging dumpster fire, they can't even do normal content in a T6-X lockbox ship, that they chose because they saw it in a movie once, it will be everybody elses fault but their own as they explain to you how the game is trash and a POS and they wasted their time and money and want a refund...
I have played with some players that swore they were great, but they couldn't put together a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, if you spotted them the bread, peanut butter, and jelly. And i am stuck asking, well, why did you add mustard and mayo? Is that bologna? Did you forget half way what kind of sandwich you were making? Oh is that an egg? Oh it's raw. So it's not even boiled? You just slid that right in there. Ah, is that sand? Why would you add sand? Can you even eat that? What do you mean texture? I thought that's what you wanted the egg shell for...
Exactly. You get it because you know what you are talking about. Couldn't have said it better myself. Though I assume the writing is a bit rough because it is blocky.
But sadly it is a moot point. The vast sum of players on this forum are not here to be reasoned with, or in the business of having their minds changed with a good faith discussion on almost any topic, especially this person in particular.
It does not matter, how much you reason to them, that this item is just an arrow in your quiver, to bring down an elephant, in something like ISE or any elite and is not having the effects they are saying it does. They will point back to their Normal and advanced runs and say, well i am doing X in here. They are doing 5 digit or in some cases 6 digit attacks and saying its OP while telling you at the same time they are running normal content or advanced if they are feeling randy. Not noticing the issue there. While you're in elite looking around for this so called "I win." button and a random NPC is riverdancing on your face.
You then try your best to explain to them that of course it doesn't matter to you, because in your eyes you are using a bazooka to swat a fly, now you are using a grenade. And that's fine, your money, your game, but they are still just flies. Yet I am now going from using an Arrow against a charging elephant, to using a toothpick. The outcomes are not equal for us who paid the same amount. How can you be okay with taking from me, yet when i say, well make the game harder, that's somehow an affront against you and I'm being elitist? Yet, you're a grown man in a mascot suit, laughing about how easy it is to score on a child's pop warner football team.
Thus, when i was saying if you have these abilities, and you are producing these outcomes then you need to move over to elite, then you will understand that what you are saying is nonsense. If you are saying you are ok with this item being nerfed because you are still oneshotting things, then the content you are doing is not up to snuff. It was mainly in response to some of the players saying how op it is. These were some of the same players a few months back complaining how phantom DPs'ers were ruining their normal runs, to then turn around and tell you they are using items like the maelstrom in normal content... Madness.
I understand that in events we have to do normal, I also personally like to theory craft and test builds in Pahvo and Dranuur advanced where my position there as a crafter is needed and does not diminish anyone's fun. But to complain how op players are destroying normal then announce you are using items that over power that normal content is infuriating and they are blissfully unaware of that dynamic.
I assure you, those players saying they are oneshotting bosses are doing so in normal and even then you need a build specifically subject to that phenomenon. You are not opening it out of the box and oneshotting bosses.
You need thousands of dollars worth of content, thousands of hours of gameplay, thousands of hours of theory crafting, thousands of hours of testing to produce that outcome. And i find it hard to believe specific people are doing that and arguing for it to be taken away.
And the people paying those thousands of dollars are not the common players. Nor the casuals. They are the pvp'ers the dps'ers the min / maxers, the thoerysmiths. And to be ok, with robbing players, that have shown you the best way to use items, shown you the value of things, walked the path before you so you wouldn't have to make that mistake, is nonsensical to me. These people are the same people that told you to get the maelstrom in the first place or else how the hell would you know?
That is why I state that it is meaningless. That is not to say that it is not worth doing. You have to always push back on these people because they are just wrong. They are wrong in their argument, they are wrong in their methods, they wrong in their standards. It might make you feel like you are the scientist in don't look up, but you have to continue to ring the alarm until the asteroid hits. And also you have to remember, we are only renting these items, because these same players will always ensure we can never own them. So we have a duty to argue our right to own as well. Because our money is worth just as much, our time, our effort.
(Emphasis added).
Look, you can be as arrogant as you want, the fact that 'this person' disagrees with you doesn't mean that I can't be reasoned with. You are not the benchmark of a reasonable person.
The fact that people might not be interested in what you have to say * might * be a result of your attitude.
Nevermind that I already replied to your actual argument about elite content. You can choose to ignore that and just repeat the same rhetoric again, I don't feel obliged to repeat myself and go over it again. Nor should I have to, if you were a reasonable person.
Exactly. You get it because you know what you are talking about. Couldn't have said it better myself. Though I assume the writing is a bit rough because it is blocky.
But sadly it is a moot point. The vast sum of players on this forum are not here to be reasoned with, or in the business of having their minds changed with a good faith discussion on almost any topic, especially this person in particular.
It does not matter, how much you reason to them, that this item is just an arrow in your quiver, to bring down an elephant, in something like ISE or any elite and is not having the effects they are saying it does. They will point back to their Normal and advanced runs and say, well i am doing X in here. They are doing 5 digit or in some cases 6 digit attacks and saying its OP while telling you at the same time they are running normal content or advanced if they are feeling randy. Not noticing the issue there. While you're in elite looking around for this so called "I win." button and a random NPC is riverdancing on your face.
You then try your best to explain to them that of course it doesn't matter to you, because in your eyes you are using a bazooka to swat a fly, now you are using a grenade. And that's fine, your money, your game, but they are still just flies. Yet I am now going from using an Arrow against a charging elephant, to using a toothpick. The outcomes are not equal for us who paid the same amount. How can you be okay with taking from me, yet when i say, well make the game harder, that's somehow an affront against you and I'm being elitist? Yet, you're a grown man in a mascot suit, laughing about how easy it is to score on a child's pop warner football team.
Thus, when i was saying if you have these abilities, and you are producing these outcomes then you need to move over to elite, then you will understand that what you are saying is nonsense. If you are saying you are ok with this item being nerfed because you are still oneshotting things, then the content you are doing is not up to snuff. It was mainly in response to some of the players saying how op it is. These were some of the same players a few months back complaining how phantom DPs'ers were ruining their normal runs, to then turn around and tell you they are using items like the maelstrom in normal content... Madness.
I understand that in events we have to do normal, I also personally like to theory craft and test builds in Pahvo and Dranuur advanced where my position there as a crafter is needed and does not diminish anyone's fun. But to complain how op players are destroying normal then announce you are using items that over power that normal content is infuriating and they are blissfully unaware of that dynamic.
I assure you, those players saying they are oneshotting bosses are doing so in normal and even then you need a build specifically subject to that phenomenon. You are not opening it out of the box and oneshotting bosses.
You need thousands of dollars worth of content, thousands of hours of gameplay, thousands of hours of theory crafting, thousands of hours of testing to produce that outcome. And i find it hard to believe specific people are doing that and arguing for it to be taken away.
And the people paying those thousands of dollars are not the common players. Nor the casuals. They are the pvp'ers the dps'ers the min / maxers, the thoerysmiths. And to be ok, with robbing players, that have shown you the best way to use items, shown you the value of things, walked the path before you so you wouldn't have to make that mistake, is nonsensical to me. These people are the same people that told you to get the maelstrom in the first place or else how the hell would you know?
That is why I state that it is meaningless. That is not to say that it is not worth doing. You have to always push back on these people because they are just wrong. They are wrong in their argument, they are wrong in their methods, they wrong in their standards. It might make you feel like you are the scientist in don't look up, but you have to continue to ring the alarm until the asteroid hits. And also you have to remember, we are only renting these items, because these same players will always ensure we can never own them. So we have a duty to argue our right to own as well. Because our money is worth just as much, our time, our effort.
(Emphasis added).
Look, you can be as arrogant as you want, the fact that 'this person' disagrees with you doesn't mean that I can't be reasoned with. You are not the benchmark of a reasonable person.
The fact that people might not be interested in what you have to say * might * be a result of your attitude.
Nevermind that I already replied to your actual argument about elite content. You can choose to ignore that and just repeat the same rhetoric again, I don't feel obliged to repeat myself and go over it again. Nor should I have to, if you were a reasonable person.
It's like talking to a Terminator stuck on repeat. "It can not be reasoned with, it can not be bargained with; it doesn't have empathy or feelings; it only wants to....." ignore that the Dev's said they were reducing the damage to compensate for a faster cooldown whilst maintaining it's DPS..... whilst complaining that the damage was reduced (which the Dev's said), and the Dev's, and everyone else, don't know what they're talking about and don't understand the technical details of building for Meta if you disagree with them.
If this change was so bad.....why hasn't the forum been lit up like the Blackpool Illuminations!? These guys obviously haven't been playing long enough to know what an exploding forum looks like (Delta Rising *Cough, Cough*)
Everyone who watched Ten Forward the day the torps were first demonstrated knew it was going to changed, and they even said as much on that stream. yet these three guys can not comprehend this!?
All these three are complaining about is that they can no longer get that 1 shot-1 mill hit, which is stupid high anyway. Saying 1 mill hit's aren't high demonstrate pure delusionality. The first time I ever saw a 1 mill hit was when Kael first launched the torps and the Dev said something in the way of "We're going to have to look at that" (then again, I don't have floating numbers enabled anymore).
Has this change impacted the speed at which I can dispatch enemies? Not really that much, no.
Has this change impacted the balance of the game in favour of NPC's? Absolutely not, I can still melt an NPC with just my Tachyon Beam alone
"You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
I just can't take you seriously. I've read through a bunch of the stuff you wrote and I just find it to be nonsensical. It's not even based on the information the OP is surmounting. It's based on your personal feelings and thoughts. Your last post was how you used it to wipe out level 30 enemies. What do you want anyone to say to that? Good job? Congratulations?
Yes. I am quite sad that I can't get 1 Million DPS in a single shot from the maelstrom. I'm also sad I can't get a single one million DPS shot with the Immolating phaser lance, I can't get that with the VAQ, I can't get that with the tholian warp core, I can't get that with the genesis seed. 1Million DPS in one shot is not impressive and if that's the best you can do with a fully charged maelstrom as it used to be or as it is now, you still have a ways to go to make that peanut butter and jelly sandwich... just, hold the egg.
You have no idea what you are talking about, you have no idea what you are responding to, you have no idea at all, but you have an opinion based wholly on your misconceptions and misunderstandings, this is why we keep saying you don't know what you are talking about. The entire point of this post as per the OP that posted it was to state that the maelstrom was UNDER PERFORMING every other quantum now in a side by side test. MEANING IT is doing LESS damage then EVERYTHING ELSE. It has come in nearly last to barely middle of the road when compared to every other torpedo of it's type in a head to head test. Meaning every OTHER torpedo is PRODUCING MORE DAMAGE then this one is. It is THE WORST QUANTUM IN THE GAME NOW. It has nothing to do with "I win." Buttons Nothing to do with 1m splash damage, nothing to do with any of the nonsense that is being spouted.
Because you two have no idea what you are talking about you are arguing the raw numbers on your screen and saying it's op because you have no idea what op is. Because you do not understand that it is doing that for you because does not benefit from Kemocite, It does not benefit from CD reduction, It does not benefit from CF, it does not benefit from Doffs, it doesn't benefit from any of these metrics it is under performing everything else that does benefit from it. So no one cares that it's not splashing 1M across the board we have other items that can. It was never the point. As stated many times, it was builds that suffered.
Do you understand that very easy concept?
The damage it did was to make up for the systems it couldn't match. So we did not need them to get the same outcomes as systems that needed them. You could make a new build and get the same outcome without needing CF, without needing Doffs, without needing Kemocite. You could build up somewhere else and forget about the torpedo. But as it is now it still doesn't benefit from those things even if you wanted it to. How is this hard to understand?
Even at 15 seconds it not even on the level of the Neutronic that is 15 seconds and benefits from reduction. IT does nearly two times the amount of damage and sometimes three if it procs crits enough.
I don't know about most people, but I know for sure, I paid 125.00 for that missle alone. The Akira is a fine ship. The Valdore is also fine. But I have better ships. I am not flying the gorn hunter. I got it for the trait. So the very reason I purchased this bundle has become worth less then a 3 no four of the rep torps. and around 4-5 of the Lobi torps. So what we are saying is make it at least viable. Give it something to make it worth using. Give it the ability to have reductions, give it more damage modifiers, or give it 6 charges, or give it a small boost in damage, give it something to make up for all that it lost. That is not being unreasonable.
What is being unreasonable is telling people that know better, to accept whatever is done to you and be grateful because reasons.
I'm not going to suggest, I'm going to tell you to stop attacking and antagonzing each other in here. It's possible to have a discussion/debate and disagree without doing that. If it doesn't stop, I will close this thread and discipline the offenders.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator and Resident She-Wolf
Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
I just can't take you seriously. I've read through a bunch of the stuff you wrote and I just find it to be nonsensical. It's not even based on the information the OP is surmounting. It's based on your personal feelings and thoughts. Your last post was how you used it to wipe out level 30 enemies. What do you want anyone to say to that? Good job? Congratulations?
Yes. I am quite sad that I can't get 1 Million DPS in a single shot from the maelstrom. I'm also sad I can't get a single one million DPS shot with the Immolating phaser lance, I can't get that with the VAQ, I can't get that with the tholian warp core, I can't get that with the genesis seed. 1Million DPS in one shot is not impressive and if that's the best you can do with a fully charged maelstrom as it used to be or as it is now, you still have a ways to go to make that peanut butter and jelly sandwich... just, hold the egg.
You have no idea what you are talking about, you have no idea what you are responding to, you have no idea at all, but you have an opinion based wholly on your misconceptions and misunderstandings, this is why we keep saying you don't know what you are talking about. The entire point of this post as per the OP that posted it was to state that the maelstrom was UNDER PERFORMING every other quantum now in a side by side test. MEANING IT is doing LESS damage then EVERYTHING ELSE. It has come in nearly last to barely middle of the road when compared to every other torpedo of it's type in a head to head test. Meaning every OTHER torpedo is PRODUCING MORE DAMAGE then this one is. It is THE WORST QUANTUM IN THE GAME NOW. It has nothing to do with "I win." Buttons Nothing to do with 1m splash damage, nothing to do with any of the nonsense that is being spouted.
Because you two have no idea what you are talking about you are arguing the raw numbers on your screen and saying it's op because you have no idea what op is. Because you do not understand that it is doing that for you because does not benefit from Kemocite, It does not benefit from CD reduction, It does not benefit from CF, it does not benefit from Doffs, it doesn't benefit from any of these metrics it is under performing everything else that does benefit from it. So no one cares that it's not splashing 1M across the board we have other items that can. It was never the point. As stated many times, it was builds that suffered.
Do you understand that very easy concept?
The damage it did was to make up for the systems it couldn't match. So we did not need them to get the same outcomes as systems that needed them. You could make a new build and get the same outcome without needing CF, without needing Doffs, without needing Kemocite. You could build up somewhere else and forget about the torpedo. But as it is now it still doesn't benefit from those things even if you wanted it to. How is this hard to understand?
Even at 15 seconds it not even on the level of the Neutronic that is 15 seconds and benefits from reduction. IT does nearly two times the amount of damage and sometimes three if it procs crits enough.
I don't know about most people, but I know for sure, I paid 125.00 for that missle alone. The Akira is a fine ship. The Valdore is also fine. But I have better ships. I am not flying the gorn hunter. I got it for the trait. So the very reason I purchased this bundle has become worth less then a 3 no four of the rep torps. and around 4-5 of the Lobi torps. So what we are saying is make it at least viable. Give it something to make it worth using. Give it the ability to have reductions, give it more damage modifiers, or give it 6 charges, or give it a small boost in damage, give it something to make up for all that it lost. That is not being unreasonable.
What is being unreasonable is telling people that know better, to accept whatever is done to you and be grateful because reasons.
I just can't take you seriously. I've read through a bunch of the stuff you wrote and I just find it to be nonsensical. It's not even based on the information the OP is surmounting. It's based on your personal feelings and thoughts. Your last post was how you used it to wipe out level 30 enemies. What do you want anyone to say to that? Good job? Congratulations?
No, that wasn't the point, that was a statement to provide context to the actual point. Not everyone is just here to boast about their performance in a game, although I can see why you might think that.
The actual point was that this weapon either allowed players to
- too easily destroy
- more enemies than they should
- with less effort than anticipated
This thread is not about my personal feelings and thoughts. The devs clearly think that some combination of the factors mentioned above wasn't right with respect to the Maelstrom. My 'feelings' (/experiences/thoughts/whatever) just happen to align with that observation.
As I said, Stats Subject to Change.
They may change it again after gathering more data. Don't forget this is the first Maelstrom Torpedo we have so they're going to be going over it a lot more than the stock Quantum Torpedo.
If the developers are going to go back and forth tweaking it, that would be fine. The problem is that historically, that doesn't really happen for STO. I remembered when DICE nerfed the M16A3 back in BF3. I remembered when gearbox nerfed the Bee shield in Borderlands 2. I've been through many games lifespan and seen the developers constantly tweaking things. The issue for STO that makes it different than other games is that it seems very likely that it could really just be left out in the cold right from this point onward, and STO fundamentally does not have a much more balanced grounds for how everything else works and also that this one cost decently more in terms of money. There are a lot of older consoles and trait that came out and its just...bad, from the start. The starship trait on the emerald chain juggernaut for example. And nothing is done to them. And so I and I suppose others, would cherish the much more standout items more than others. And due to the much more imbalanced grounds that the meta is at the moment, the changes end up looking more like knee-jerk reactions or quick fixes that end up drastically changing the performance of those cherished stuff. Take for example, when the lower decks portable phaser cannon, it was a very good ground weapon. It received a 15% damage nerf and it received it fast within a week, unlike other nerfs, there was no outcry, because from launch it came out good, and post change it still remains very good and till this days is one of the top ground weapons to use. The agony redistributor however, got reduced so hard, and the later patch that rebuffed it barely did anything to, and then got left out in the cold. Till this day the console is...I really don't know what to say if people cannot see that the console is just really really performing extremely bad now. The plasma explosive threat console...I don't know anybody that uses them. Feedback pulse in pve...still a novelty today.
Also why I really had to bring myself to write that whole thing as soon as I pointed my mouse over the tooltip and confirmed the new base damage. If no attention is brought fast enough, could just be left out from here onwards.
Yeah...I feel that a lot to this day with the plasma embassy consoles, yes they were so OP that people would fill all their science slots with them and they made plasma energy weapons the best in the game...they needed a nerf
But now they're absolutely positively worthless, the proc rate is abysmal and the damage is almost no existent...I've equipped them a few times for the space plasma damage...and I've come out of entire stfs where it hasn't even done 25k total damage
Unfortunately this often tracks with them, they have a history of releasing op items then after they've been popular they just nerf them to oblivion
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
However, they reduced the cooldown, this is a BUFF, and they reduced the damage to compensate so you still got the same DPS...... so not a actually a nerf. The usefulness has not been halved one iota.
They also said when they first released the torp that it WOULD be adjusted. They don't want you one shotting enemies, which is what they said in the updated patch notes.
The cooldown was too long. This change is a huge buff, you'll still be able to obliterate the enemy.
This is most certainty not a buff.
It is a major nerf.
The entire point was to hold a Mael for 1:30.... and apply a massive fully buffed up burst spike. It was good at that and it hit hard enough to make it worth sitting a weapon slot out that long. You could even make an argument for slotting two and sitting 2 slots out... and hitting one every 45s.
With this change... it is now at 15s per charge less damaging then slotting something like a Neutronic which is also a 15s torp. Or a Delphic if your using HY. Both of those torps and other big boomer torps can be cooled down by traits like Ceaseless momentum, and torpedo cool down duty officers. Meaning they are higher DPS if your just going to spam a mael whenever its up anyway.
If your going to hold a Mael for the 45s it takes to get a 3 charge... it now hits fairly close to the dmg of a Tricobalt, Time device or heavy PEP/Nanopulse ect. Only again it has no way of being cooled down below 45s. A tric has a stupid 15s global but it is easy to hit. The other options like the time device have no such restriction and you can fire 4-5 of them in 45s.
I am a little disappointed to see the new Dev cave so fast on this one. There was nothing wrong with this weapon. It was powerful yes, but the trade off was essentially making players actually do a bit more work. Manual mode firing... and at least a little bit of tactical play holding it for that big boss, and even perhaps actually waiting for a shield to drop. It actually felt like a star trek weapon. Considering he has since released TWO cat 2 bonus dmg Energy dmg consoles into the game... I really expected he was just going to buff everything. If bosses are dying too quickly, BUFF em. Maybe its time for that.
I really don't want to be a negative sounding player... but its hard not to feel a bit bait and switched on this one. The Mael was almost the only reason to buy the first strike bundle. Ya I know the ships are OK... the traits on both are garbage. The Mael was the only reason I bought the pack... and now I will never use em. All well it was a cool idea... back to my bank to pull out what we have all been using for 5+ years.
EDIT: After re reading. I also have to ask. When did you here the devs say it WOULD be adjusted when it was launched. All they said is what they say with anything. If we need to we'll adjust it. I think most people would assume after a few months they had looked it over.
"Worthless"? Because you can't one-shot a boss with its shields up any more? Methinks you'd be more comfortable playing something from Bethesda, where you can download a God-Mode mod or cheat your way through with console commands (the code for the Debug Pistol in Fallout New Vegas is 001465A6).
I don't know how to tell you this. Using the Mael was NOT the games top DPS build. Bosses are still going to drop in a couple seconds when any fully loaded out DPS player is around.
What the mael offered was a more Star Trek way to play the game... something everyone has been saying they have wanted for 15 years. No one was one shot ending anything through shields, outside the odd fully buffed hit on a super debuffed target. Torpedo builds can ignore a lot of shields, that has nothing to do with the Mael.
Its hard to say a torpedo that hits for 2m dmg every 1:30 is a god mode cheat... when I have surgical strike DEW builds that hit every single shot north of 200k. The Mael was just fun... and now its just a bad role play torp, looks cool hits alright but its a DPS loss over multiple other options.
However, they reduced the cooldown, this is a BUFF, and they reduced the damage to compensate so you still got the same DPS...... so not a actually a nerf. The usefulness has not been halved one iota.
They also said when they first released the torp that it WOULD be adjusted. They don't want you one shotting enemies, which is what they said in the updated patch notes.
The cooldown was too long. This change is a huge buff, you'll still be able to obliterate the enemy.
This is most certainty not a buff.
It is a major nerf.
The entire point was to hold a Mael for 1:30.... and apply a massive fully buffed up burst spike. It was good at that and it hit hard enough to make it worth sitting a weapon slot out that long. You could even make an argument for slotting two and sitting 2 slots out... and hitting one every 45s.
With this change... it is now at 15s per charge less damaging then slotting something like a Neutronic which is also a 15s torp. Or a Delphic if your using HY. Both of those torps and other big boomer torps can be cooled down by traits like Ceaseless momentum, and torpedo cool down duty officers. Meaning they are higher DPS if your just going to spam a mael whenever its up anyway.
If your going to hold a Mael for the 45s it takes to get a 3 charge... it now hits fairly close to the dmg of a Tricobalt, Time device or heavy PEP/Nanopulse ect. Only again it has no way of being cooled down below 45s. A tric has a stupid 15s global but it is easy to hit. The other options like the time device have no such restriction and you can fire 4-5 of them in 45s.
I am a little disappointed to see the new Dev cave so fast on this one. There was nothing wrong with this weapon. It was powerful yes, but the trade off was essentially making players actually do a bit more work. Manual mode firing... and at least a little bit of tactical play holding it for that big boss, and even perhaps actually waiting for a shield to drop. It actually felt like a star trek weapon. Considering he has since released TWO cat 2 bonus dmg Energy dmg consoles into the game... I really expected he was just going to buff everything. If bosses are dying too quickly, BUFF em. Maybe its time for that.
I really don't want to be a negative sounding player... but its hard not to feel a bit bait and switched on this one. The Mael was almost the only reason to buy the first strike bundle. Ya I know the ships are OK... the traits on both are garbage. The Mael was the only reason I bought the pack... and now I will never use em. All well it was a cool idea... back to my bank to pull out what we have all been using for 5+ years.
EDIT: After re reading. I also have to ask. When did you here the devs say it WOULD be adjusted when it was launched. All they said is what they say with anything. If we need to we'll adjust it. I think most people would assume after a few months they had looked it over.
They said it when they demo'd it for the first time on the livestream a while back. They have looked at their own data and they clearly stated in the edited patch notes why they were doing this. Whilst the Dev's haven't been on the forums to defend their decision, someone has to, as I believe their data is more expansive than other players.
I have the torp myself, and to be frank, it sorely needed it as it was a ROFL-Stomp weapon, that was more powerful than almost everything else, weapons and abilities, I had to use. The trade off in increased cooldown and the reduction in hit damage per hit, whilst maintaining it's DPS, is perfectly fine with me as it still works well with my build, and now I have more reason to use it as I use a heavy sci build for it anyway. I currently flit between the Quantum Phase torp and this.
I'm perfectly happy with them buffing NPC's, but we all know how that ended up the last time they did that.
"You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
However, they reduced the cooldown, this is a BUFF, and they reduced the damage to compensate so you still got the same DPS...... so not a actually a nerf. The usefulness has not been halved one iota.
They also said when they first released the torp that it WOULD be adjusted. They don't want you one shotting enemies, which is what they said in the updated patch notes.
The cooldown was too long. This change is a huge buff, you'll still be able to obliterate the enemy.
This is most certainty not a buff.
It is a major nerf.
The entire point was to hold a Mael for 1:30.... and apply a massive fully buffed up burst spike. It was good at that and it hit hard enough to make it worth sitting a weapon slot out that long. You could even make an argument for slotting two and sitting 2 slots out... and hitting one every 45s.
With this change... it is now at 15s per charge less damaging then slotting something like a Neutronic which is also a 15s torp. Or a Delphic if your using HY. Both of those torps and other big boomer torps can be cooled down by traits like Ceaseless momentum, and torpedo cool down duty officers. Meaning they are higher DPS if your just going to spam a mael whenever its up anyway.
If your going to hold a Mael for the 45s it takes to get a 3 charge... it now hits fairly close to the dmg of a Tricobalt, Time device or heavy PEP/Nanopulse ect. Only again it has no way of being cooled down below 45s. A tric has a stupid 15s global but it is easy to hit. The other options like the time device have no such restriction and you can fire 4-5 of them in 45s.
I am a little disappointed to see the new Dev cave so fast on this one. There was nothing wrong with this weapon. It was powerful yes, but the trade off was essentially making players actually do a bit more work. Manual mode firing... and at least a little bit of tactical play holding it for that big boss, and even perhaps actually waiting for a shield to drop. It actually felt like a star trek weapon. Considering he has since released TWO cat 2 bonus dmg Energy dmg consoles into the game... I really expected he was just going to buff everything. If bosses are dying too quickly, BUFF em. Maybe its time for that.
I really don't want to be a negative sounding player... but its hard not to feel a bit bait and switched on this one. The Mael was almost the only reason to buy the first strike bundle. Ya I know the ships are OK... the traits on both are garbage. The Mael was the only reason I bought the pack... and now I will never use em. All well it was a cool idea... back to my bank to pull out what we have all been using for 5+ years.
EDIT: After re reading. I also have to ask. When did you here the devs say it WOULD be adjusted when it was launched. All they said is what they say with anything. If we need to we'll adjust it. I think most people would assume after a few months they had looked it over.
They said it when they demo'd it for the first time on the livestream a while back. They have looked at their own data and they clearly stated in the edited patch notes why they were doing this. Whilst the Dev's haven't been on the forums to defend their decision, someone has to, as I believe their data is more expansive than other players.
I have the torp myself, and to be frank, it sorely needed it as it was a ROFL-Stomp weapon, that was more powerful than almost everything else, weapons and abilities, I had to use. The trade off in increased cooldown and the reduction in hit damage per hit, whilst maintaining it's DPS, is perfectly fine with me as it still works well with my build, and now I have more reason to use it as I use a heavy sci build for it anyway. I currently flit between the Quantum Phase torp and this.
I'm perfectly happy with them buffing NPC's, but we all know how that ended up the last time they did that.
Incorrect but believe as you will. I sat on the stream like many people. No he did not say it was getting adjusted for sure. Of course there is never a guarantee things wouldn't get adjusted. There never is. I am a little annoyed that any data they wanted to collect was out there in the first week or two of its being launched... and only now it gets such a major change. I would have actually preferred and respected them dropping the DMG 20% and leaving everything else as is. This change is a drastic change to the design which imo is a mistake. I mean where do they go from here with other torp types (which is something he said on steam). I would have just reduced the dmg on it if they felt that strongly about it and released a photon version if they wanted a faster charge version. Then release a tricobalt version with 1m charges and even bigger booms. This change has left him no where to add anything interesting enough to sell the next bundle.
I own all the games torps. It went from a very niche hard hitting torp... to now being B tier if you don't consider the annoyance of having to baby it in a manual mode. At least if we are talking about full torpedo builds. If you are using as a torp+energy build weapon it is just ya B grade... not the worst thing you could slot but there are multiple A tier options that would be easier to use and provide higher DPS.
ok I ran a bit with this and I will use the jupiter simulation as an example. before they nerfed it I could use TS3 kill off (in this case) the web weavers and put a dent in the recluses. now it doesn't even damage the recluses and maybe takes a 1/4 the hull of the smaller ships. basically it's now a quantum torpedo with a longer cooldown. the Gravimetric torpedo does 2-3 times the damaghe now. if they re-adjust the damage from where it is now to maybe 1/2 to 2/3 where is tarted it would become worth slotting again
ok I ran a bit with this and I will use the jupiter simulation as an example. before they nerfed it I could use TS3 kill off (in this case) the web weavers and put a dent in the recluses. now it doesn't even damage the recluses and maybe takes a 1/4 the hull of the smaller ships. basically it's now a quantum torpedo with a longer cooldown. the Gravimetric torpedo does 2-3 times the damaghe now. if they re-adjust the damage from where it is now to maybe 1/2 to 2/3 where is tarted it would become worth slotting again
I've explained why this thing is happening in my writeup, but nice to see some awareness. And right now it is at 1/2 where it started.
Comments
The vast majority of players on the forum are casual players that play the game on normal and a few venture over to advanced. They aren't Min/Maxers, DPs'er, or pvp players. The vast majority of the items made in this game are made to push you up to these heights because those same casual players will complain that they can't enjoy the game because of op players with op items.
So it really does not make sense to reason with people that just have no idea what they are talking about. They will continue to say, "Well it does this and this, in the content I run, so you should be happy." It wasn't designed for that content. If you are playing on normal and advanced you are the one creating the problem for those on normal and advanced. You are the so called min maxer running normal and oneshotting everything. The same as those going for Iso Mags so they can play normal content... if you have the traits and the ships and the knowhow to do that, please be so kind as to move over to elite and let the normal players play with the normal players.
You have to understand, though you may not intend to, that you are arguing as a layman "A gun is a gun and will kill people no matter how you use it" to a scientist that's responding, "Yes that is true, but you are trying to compare a hand gun to an assault rifle. It does not matter that they will have the same outcome, they can never and will never do the same thing."
The maelstrom was created specifically as per the creators themselves on the stream, was to make those splashy overkill numbers so that you would use them strategically. And for those that do not understand what strategically means, it means, for the biggest return. And that would mean boss. The opponent with the largest cache of HP. The issue is, they didn't raise the charge to 6, but left it at three. It only makes sense that if you are to halve everything else. Raise the cap to 6 so the people who wanted it for that strategic use can still wait the time they wanted and get that return they were promised. If they do not intend to do that then it should at the least be subject to cool down reduction so that players that are willing to, can still find value in it.
As it is now, the maelstrom is not good at the job it was supposed to fulfill. It falls way behind normal quantum torps that benefit from cool down. it falls woefully behind free r&d / rep torps in that same time, and lobi torps. It does not matter that you keep saying that in 1:30M it will do the same damage. I needed it to do all of that damage in 3 charges not 6. Because if that's the case i should just switch over to other torps that will do vastly more damage then this one does. It collapsed builds again, now we are right back to optimal ships for optimal builds that do not include the maelstrom. and that is what makes me angry. It destroyed tons of high end builds with the flick of a switch and all players can say is, "Well get over it."
It's not even a conversation worth having.
Yes, it sucks that they do sale eye popping items that are designed to be op, and it does feel fishy that even on the live stream when they were told that it would have this outcome they said it should be this way, So you spent your money on the item for that reason, we can't pretend we did not see this coming. As min maxers and dps'ers we already know we are just borrowing these items for the moment. Renting them for a few months. Till it reaches peak saturation to then wait for the next item to come along the process starts all over again.
They create paths, they remove paths. Circle of life.
I want to add that you should be aware why the DPSers are still mostly on the lower difficulties. The most rewarding way to get marks and Dilithium from playing TFOs is RATFO. The rewards are so much better than playing anything else, its also easy for DPS people, and that the queue time is very very fast, many times you get queued almost instantly. Theres no good reason to run RNTFO, because lower rewards and...why? Lower difficulty at this point makes no sense. If you see DPSers in normal its because they don't really have a choice: its an event map. Then comes elite, not only is not every DPSer in the community parser DPS channels (don't forget, those are invite only and the popular ones needs certain DPS requirements), most of the runs will mainly be the DPS maps (its almost always ISE). Queuing for other queues in the TFO tab, you could be waiting, for a very very long time. There is no RETFO.
So you can't just "move over to elite". Trying to "not do too much DPS" in these lower difficulty TFOs, requires some rather absurd actions, like simply sitting around once a while in the TFO doing nothing, purposely not running CSV or EPG, perhaps simply just slacking off in runs, just barely putting any effort and just winging the TFO.
Also I wrote this writeup mainly for the devs to read it. Hence its extreme technicality.
My points are:
- Devs are gonna nerf what Devs are gonna nerf. And, the Devs don't really have to listen (except in the two cases listed below).
- Never, ever forget Cryptic is a business. Their goal is to make money. NOT to provide the perfect Star Trek experience. If you want their attention, stop spending money.
- Metrics. The people at Cryptic have to show their owners/shareholders people are playing Star Trek Online to justify expenses. I wonder what would happen if people just stopped playing STO?
- I'm thinking if players used the two leverage points listed above, the Devs would have no choice but to listen. Take a look at Corporate America lately and you'll find good examples of companies either responding or suffering the fallout of not doing so.
- Lastly, always remember Star Trek Online is a not-very-good MMO. People should not allow it to become a lifestyle choice. Because doing so makes someone a puppet on strings controlled by the Devs.
This is not me having a go. Your write-up isn't that techincal and it's word-salad. If you want to catch the Dev's attention, you need to be concise and you need to back up your points with clear evidence that the Dev's have not seen. Don't forget, the Dev's have way more data to go off that you have. I've read thousands of research papers and written too many papers before you say anything. This is just advice.
First: there are a lot of assumptions in your post.
"If you are playing on normal and advanced you are the one creating the problem for those on normal and advanced. You are the so called min maxer running normal and oneshotting everything."
Advanced is what the overall majority of the game's population plays. Elite queues rarely start with a random team.
I find it strange to argue that there's nothing wrong with an OP weapon, just because there is harder content to use it in. With that excuse, everything can be made OP and then we wouldn't have a problem. Except we would, because it makes no sense.
It's basically the same as suggesting that there should be more or harder elite content, because there is so much power creep. The problem is the power creep, or an OP item. Fixing that is the most logical solution.
Also: I find it funny that players keep suggesting that some people might not know what they're talking about - or that they are only looking at tooltips:
Like I said before: unmodified (white quality, the quality they have when claiming the ship) Maelstroms were allowing for destruction of entire groups even when below level 30, in a ship without any significant boosters. I don't need a tooltip to see I was doing this.
And there is no min-maxing there. No starship traits, no (for torpedoes relevant) personal traits, no spire consoles or whatever. You claim the torpedo, you blow up everything, it was as simple as that. It's fine if anyone thinks that's ok, obviously the people making this game think differently and I can't say I blame them for that.
The weapon was supposed to be strategic, but there's nothing strategic about something that can be used to destroy every enemy in sight.
Casual players are unlikely to buy a $120 pack for a torpedo anyway.
Likewise, the claim that everyone who was doing well with this torpedo was some min-maxer, is just as wrong. If anything, it suggests that those complaining about the 'nerf' don't really have an idea what they're talking about.
The issue wasn't powerful players playing in too easy content. The issue was a torpedo that was too powerful. And no, it hasn't become useless at all, certainly not for more casual players who happen to own the item, as they will find that it's still a very useful weapon.
Now, that's arguably a suggestive thing - but so is claiming that something is useless just because you can't just as easily one-shot something anymore.
Universal Consoles from most of T6 can did what u said.
I can give u some examples.
Console - Universal - Cascading Gravimetric Disruptions
Console - Universal - Cascading Subatomic Disruptions
or even a normal hanger pet.
And there is no min-maxing there. No starship traits, no personal traits, no spire consoles or whatever.
So whats the point of your words ? I think its didnt show anything valuable.
Because , theres a lot of consoles or etc that can did what u said in that situation. Why ?
Because Cryptic didnt think about that part.
For old players , thats good.
Because that means you can make you new toon doing missions or anything else faster.
Or just make a jump start.
The main problem for why you think its OP because the current difficult isn't fit current powercreep.
The difficult was set years ago. But during these years , Cryptic keeps making new consoles/traits/ship itself.
People put these new stuff's number or mechanism together , get a high (whatever it is , ill say its DPS or DMG) build.
So the previous difficult maybe not work exactly for this situation , why ? Because its design for years ago.
So at this time , If cryptic want to fix that up , it needs to nerf a lot of things.
So if u see like this , you'll see that only nerf maelstrom is wrong. This is a temporary cure rather than a permanent cure.
Or it's not even a cure, its just promotes the development.
Back to the Agony Redistribution time. That was the same situation. Same step(nerf only one thing) and same people react.
So its a cycle.A problem will never be fix.
It's wont become a "must have" item.
Even if the 100% Damage of current Maelstrom Torpedo.
It need a strategy to work well. For casual player , you dont need this cause you dont chase dps.
This Torpedo is only good at Strategy. Without the damage its useless.
Why ? Because when this torpedo released , Jonathan said:
"the point is to be able to take 90s worth of quantom torpedos push through High Yield 3."
It's actually meh in daily use except deal with the Boss.
But if you have a proper build and you can play that well , you didnt even need this , Because you can kill the Boss easily without the Maelstrom Torpedo.
The point of this torpedo is it's cd cant be reduced. But we got a Spike Damage by that.
So if we lost the Spike Damage , then what's the meaning of this torpedo ? The cd cant be recuced , The torpedo moves slow, The price is expensive.
As you said yourself, most of the population is playing on advanced difficulty. Were most of the DPS players playing on elite, a lot of DPS related issues won't be a problem. But as I've explained above why even most DPS players are playing on lower difficulties, if you use a maxed out P2W build on lower difficulty that would otherwise be meant for elite, you are going to overpower your way through content, especially if your piloting is good. From what you've said so far, you seem to lack understanding on what the state of the game is. Most MMOs have created higher and higher "tiers" of difficulty over time to compensate for ever increasing new content thats released thats more and more power. STO doesn't. So over time the power creep has gone off the charts, its already an insta-kill fest on ground everywhere. But unlike other MMOs, STO doesn't incentivize or pressure you to need to get the better or best stuff, its a free open playstyle where even if you get the best stuff there is barely anything to use it for. Playing on elite gives you worse rewards than playing on advanced. The P2W is itself also why they have not added and RETFO. Because f2p yourself to elite level is very hard for most people. If you add a random matchmaking for only elite queues, you are going to get a lot of unpleasant experiences. Not to mention itself that scaling is bad also thanks to the lack of people playing elite TFOs outside of the few popular ones like ISE which leads to certain overscaled scenarios that is left to be as no one has complained about them, leading to some TFOs that are way more unfairly difficult. We've managed to overpower those issues on advanced difficulty, but on elite, you are going to now also need to P2W overpowered survivability in addition to DPS stuff otherwise you might find yourself easily getting one-shotted. So what we end up with is a massive powercreep on advanced difficulty in space and why this changes things is because normally, the devs would balance out the game, give many many balancing passes over long periods of time. If you haven't noticed, this game barely does that, not intentionally, but because they simply can't. There simply isn't manpower for the devs to balance the game, if you haven't noticed also, the game has been dwindling in content releases, while mostly only focusing on launching out new paid stuff. No new reps, no new battlezones, lack of new social areas, even new unique mission dropped items have also become rare. Hell, did you see T1-T4 and then T5 ships? They've stuck to T6 in what seems to be a permanent situation because they can't even handle normal tiering like most MMOs. I've sent multiple bug reports and I can see how they don't even have time to fix them, they have to prioritize what they think is important. For example, right now, you can totally still slot in 5x isomag advance engineering console, and 5x fleet spire locators simultaneously through a bug, ever since it came out it still isn't fixed. There is no end to people complaining about loadouts not working correctly. Some bugs don't even get fixed for years. So what you get is endless amount of new paid stuff that many of them comes out with some kind of bug, it was kinda a joke when doing debugging, that its almost certain with every single new patch (that they now don't even guarantee anymore that its at least once a week), there will almost certainly be at least 1 new bug created. The community has simply accepted the state of the game cos they have no choice, but that means you think that something is OP, and so nerfing it seems to make the game better. It makes the game worse, someone paid for that item, people get used to it, and its "fine", because there are countless of other OP items in the game and nobody is playing this game taking "balancing" seriously.
The people out there complaining about OP stuff are simply oblivious to the current state of the game and adding pressure to the devs to do balances that they know is simply impossible, hence needing to rely on knee-jerk reactions like this one. Most people, don't care, which is fine, but you seem to be one of those who simply don't know and care but in the wrong way. There are obviously stuff that "ruins immersion" or is simply far to game breaking that it obviously has to be fixed. This isn't one of them. You constantly refer to how at lvl 30 your maelstrom can "one shot groups of enemies", simply not understanding how 3 charges of what is essentially 7 HY3 damage even at lvl 30 is obviously going to kill certain low HP stuff at lvl 65, say a frigate with 40k HP, at the cost of waiting 90seconds to do that again, because what is 40k HP? And then multiple of those frigates if you use spread. Then concluding that means this is super OP and must be nerfed, completely oblivious to the rest of the game. Strategic? You realize there is nothing much else in this game than blowing up stuff? Its how efficiently you do that is what strategic means in this context.
I didn't want to bring up this card, but if you don't know, I am essentially the one of the top DPS players in the whole game, I've set multiple no#1 ranked parses and have at this point probably put in more time into DPSing than almost anyone else in the game at this point. From my point of view, you are the one that does not know what you are talking about. Casuals will always be fine whether something of theirs gets nerfed to oblivion or not, because they do not have enough of a vested interest to care for their stuff. But for others, especially those that paid for this, you are ruining it for them, for some justification that this game has now been better off. Which is how theres a running meme in-game that there is simply "no fun allowed", referring to that at this point its not even about balance anymore, people are simply trying to find fun in whatever way that is possible and that cryptic has made many bizarre decisions to remove those fun away.
If you join a COD match and get wrecked by some top tier skilled player, the game isn't ruined because theres many other matches to play, and that highly skilled players will always be in the small minority, just like DPSers in this game. Not only does it cost over a thousand of dollar worth of item, there is also the skill factor. In which cryptic simply do not have the capacity to balance items accounting for not only scaling but also skill / optimization in using, some items can be pushed further than others. After SBMM was added, now there is no randomness to the players that are matched, and it has turned into a purely competitive game. Similar to how some people here are asking for a "damage cap". Is that what you want? Low-skilled players in COD will not be affected by SBMM but people with more vested interest are going to have their fun taken away because now their KD is going to basically average out to 1. Do you want every single thing in this game to basically be just as bad as every other thing? For this maelstrom to be "useless", it doesn't actually need to perform bad. It simply just needs to be "another quantum", which as more test are going along, its basically what it is after this patch. If this maelstrom was launched this way people would get to decide if they want to buy a novelty item or not, but the maelstrom clearly wasn't "just another quantum" when it came out and that is what people bought it for. Both for that performance and for that fun. And now that has been ruined.
Exactly. You get it because you know what you are talking about. Couldn't have said it better myself. Though I assume the writing is a bit rough because it is blocky.
But sadly it is a moot point. The vast sum of players on this forum are not here to be reasoned with, or in the business of having their minds changed with a good faith discussion on almost any topic, especially this person in particular.
It does not matter, how much you reason to them, that this item is just an arrow in your quiver, to bring down an elephant, in something like ISE or any elite and is not having the effects they are saying it does. They will point back to their Normal and advanced runs and say, well i am doing X in here. They are doing 5 digit or in some cases 6 digit attacks and saying its OP while telling you at the same time they are running normal content or advanced if they are feeling randy. Not noticing the issue there. While you're in elite looking around for this so called "I win." button and a random NPC is riverdancing on your face.
You then try your best to explain to them that of course it doesn't matter to you, because in your eyes you are using a bazooka to swat a fly, now you are using a grenade. And that's fine, your money, your game, but they are still just flies. Yet I am now going from using an Arrow against a charging elephant, to using a toothpick. The outcomes are not equal for us who paid the same amount. How can you be okay with taking from me, yet when i say, well make the game harder, that's somehow an affront against you and I'm being elitist? Yet, you're a grown man in a mascot suit, laughing about how easy it is to score on a child's pop warner football team.
Thus, when i was saying if you have these abilities, and you are producing these outcomes then you need to move over to elite, then you will understand that what you are saying is nonsense. If you are saying you are ok with this item being nerfed because you are still oneshotting things, then the content you are doing is not up to snuff. It was mainly in response to some of the players saying how op it is. These were some of the same players a few months back complaining how phantom DPs'ers were ruining their normal runs, to then turn around and tell you they are using items like the maelstrom in normal content... Madness.
I understand that in events we have to do normal, I also personally like to theory craft and test builds in Pahvo and Dranuur advanced where my position there as a crafter is needed and does not diminish anyone's fun. But to complain how op players are destroying normal then announce you are using items that over power that normal content is infuriating and they are blissfully unaware of that dynamic.
I assure you, those players saying they are oneshotting bosses are doing so in normal and even then you need a build specifically subject to that phenomenon. You are not opening it out of the box and oneshotting bosses.
You need thousands of dollars worth of content, thousands of hours of gameplay, thousands of hours of theory crafting, thousands of hours of testing to produce that outcome. And i find it hard to believe specific people are doing that and arguing for it to be taken away.
And the people paying those thousands of dollars are not the common players. Nor the casuals. They are the pvp'ers the dps'ers the min / maxers, the thoerysmiths. And to be ok, with robbing players, that have shown you the best way to use items, shown you the value of things, walked the path before you so you wouldn't have to make that mistake, is nonsensical to me. These people are the same people that told you to get the maelstrom in the first place or else how the hell would you know?
That is why I state that it is meaningless. That is not to say that it is not worth doing. You have to always push back on these people because they are just wrong. They are wrong in their argument, they are wrong in their methods, they wrong in their standards. It might make you feel like you are the scientist in don't look up, but you have to continue to ring the alarm until the asteroid hits. And also you have to remember, we are only renting these items, because these same players will always ensure we can never own them. So we have a duty to argue our right to own as well. Because our money is worth just as much, our time, our effort.
Pretty much it. I never really intended to have a discussion here, I immediately started writing this as soon as the halving of the base damage was confirmed as soon as server went online. It was meant just for the developers to read it. I know that if it was basically just another post about "big nerf, and nerf is bad", it would be pointless. So I've focused as straight forward down to the mechanics of how the maelstrom was good, and the consequence if left in the current way, and because this is a major nerf similar to the big one back then in agony redistributor, the 2nd part was to explain how there are some things you shouldn't do when it comes to these kinds of things. I don't know what are the priorities or issues that cryptic's faces in this specific issue, but all I can do is simply point out the consequence if left this way with my knowledge of DPS, and if this is an acceptable consequence because of some bigger priority that cryptic needs resolving, then so be it and nothing much else I can do.
Totally get what your saying with the futility of trying to reason with some of the folks here. Though its definitely infuriating to see someone, supposedly been playing for 12 years and with what, 5000 post here? Calling this a buff, and saying its too long to read, but then completely missing the point that I've painstakingly pointed, and having no understanding of what the issue is with what the devs just changed and then continuing to double down on that. As you can see, I barely hang around here, most of my post is mostly for debugging. And even that has slowed down to a crawl because I've started to see how much bugs they can really handle. Supposedly with my knowledge and skill in DPS, I would have some things to say in that not too long ago DPS thread titled "Too much DPS". But I didn't because, people that has a pretty high vested interest in DPSing in STO and obviously knows there are issues with people having disparities in performance being matched together, also knows that the bottleneck for solutions to this issues is down to the capacity of the devs. Until the devs can show changes in their capacity to make larger changes to the game, there is really nothing much to say and or discuss, and we are going to be stuck with these issues for a long long time.
Although now that I've once in a long time post a discussion here, and quickly been bombarded with many anti-DPS sentiments mostly from people who after what they've said, have little understanding of the issue, and as you've very well explained the fallacy and hypocrisy in their way of thinking, I'd say there isn't really any point trying to push back to these people either. If you've not noticed, most of the top Dpsers (including me), have outright simply stopped trying to educate people on min-max meta anymore and stopped trying to spread awareness for it. Top pvpers are still doing it for pvp meta, they want more people in, though it seems to me eventually they gonna face the same issue either, just that pvp is too small atm, but for PVE Dpsers we've mostly given up. Sure Dpsers will still help people on basics and improving their gameplay, but not the other end. There is barely anywhere in the whole site or discord channels that you can find any more updated meta stuff with our current new toys, and also how it works and the why. We've been punished only by trying to spread knowledge of such stuff. Cryptic can have their unfiltered, unadulterated and uneducated opinions of anti-dps sentiments, which I doubt will act as very good feedback for cryptic's use. So, gatekeeping it is. Those who have expressed interest would still be in the know, those who isn't wouldn't.
Yeah. It sucks. I enjoy it so much. Theory crafting.Infinite minefeilds, Permanent sheild decoupling, building effects here and there. I enjoy it and want to spread it to the masses. Though admittedly most of that does end with nerfs because it is a little game breaking here and there.
More and more everyday you have to start closing doors and blocking paths.
I would state when a person would ask what is better, which is the best, what should I do. Well, if you got this item it automatically does A and B and since it does A and B for you, you can remove those from your tray and can now focus on C and E. That will have a massive effect on F and G and you might enjoy it. Yet instead of being enlightened to a new type of game play, you are often met with nonsense like Meta doesn't exist, or I should be able to play how I want to play.
Which is fine, but i shouldn't have to listen to you complain about the outcomes of how you wanted to play. Don't cry out how you spent your yearly token on TRIBBLE, don't complain about how you wasted 1B+ on a ship, How you wasted Zen, Di, or Lobi on trash. I should be able to play the game without hearing about it.
If I have to shut up about the META, then you should have to shut up about your decisions. Seems fair.
I imagne its like being a regulator and you are talking to a home builder, you explain to them the best way to build their house up to code which would be the quickest, cheapest way, to reach that standard of living they want. They then yell at you they will build their house the way they want. Then later on once it's vastly over budget, under-performing, and just a raging dumpster fire, they can't even do normal content in a T6-X lockbox ship, that they chose because they saw it in a movie once, it will be everybody elses fault but their own as they explain to you how the game is trash and a POS and they wasted their time and money and want a refund...
I have played with some players that swore they were great, but they couldn't put together a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, if you spotted them the bread, peanut butter, and jelly. And i am stuck asking, well, why did you add mustard and mayo? Is that bologna? Did you forget half way what kind of sandwich you were making? Oh is that an egg? Oh it's raw. So it's not even boiled? You just slid that right in there. Ah, is that sand? Why would you add sand? Can you even eat that? What do you mean texture? I thought that's what you wanted the egg shell for...
Heartbreaking stuff. really.
(Emphasis added).
Look, you can be as arrogant as you want, the fact that 'this person' disagrees with you doesn't mean that I can't be reasoned with. You are not the benchmark of a reasonable person.
The fact that people might not be interested in what you have to say * might * be a result of your attitude.
Nevermind that I already replied to your actual argument about elite content. You can choose to ignore that and just repeat the same rhetoric again, I don't feel obliged to repeat myself and go over it again. Nor should I have to, if you were a reasonable person.
It's like talking to a Terminator stuck on repeat. "It can not be reasoned with, it can not be bargained with; it doesn't have empathy or feelings; it only wants to....." ignore that the Dev's said they were reducing the damage to compensate for a faster cooldown whilst maintaining it's DPS..... whilst complaining that the damage was reduced (which the Dev's said), and the Dev's, and everyone else, don't know what they're talking about and don't understand the technical details of building for Meta if you disagree with them.
If this change was so bad.....why hasn't the forum been lit up like the Blackpool Illuminations!? These guys obviously haven't been playing long enough to know what an exploding forum looks like (Delta Rising *Cough, Cough*)
Everyone who watched Ten Forward the day the torps were first demonstrated knew it was going to changed, and they even said as much on that stream. yet these three guys can not comprehend this!?
All these three are complaining about is that they can no longer get that 1 shot-1 mill hit, which is stupid high anyway. Saying 1 mill hit's aren't high demonstrate pure delusionality. The first time I ever saw a 1 mill hit was when Kael first launched the torps and the Dev said something in the way of "We're going to have to look at that" (then again, I don't have floating numbers enabled anymore).
Has this change impacted the speed at which I can dispatch enemies? Not really that much, no.
Has this change impacted the balance of the game in favour of NPC's? Absolutely not, I can still melt an NPC with just my Tachyon Beam alone
I just can't take you seriously. I've read through a bunch of the stuff you wrote and I just find it to be nonsensical. It's not even based on the information the OP is surmounting. It's based on your personal feelings and thoughts. Your last post was how you used it to wipe out level 30 enemies. What do you want anyone to say to that? Good job? Congratulations?
Yes. I am quite sad that I can't get 1 Million DPS in a single shot from the maelstrom. I'm also sad I can't get a single one million DPS shot with the Immolating phaser lance, I can't get that with the VAQ, I can't get that with the tholian warp core, I can't get that with the genesis seed. 1Million DPS in one shot is not impressive and if that's the best you can do with a fully charged maelstrom as it used to be or as it is now, you still have a ways to go to make that peanut butter and jelly sandwich... just, hold the egg.
You have no idea what you are talking about, you have no idea what you are responding to, you have no idea at all, but you have an opinion based wholly on your misconceptions and misunderstandings, this is why we keep saying you don't know what you are talking about. The entire point of this post as per the OP that posted it was to state that the maelstrom was UNDER PERFORMING every other quantum now in a side by side test. MEANING IT is doing LESS damage then EVERYTHING ELSE. It has come in nearly last to barely middle of the road when compared to every other torpedo of it's type in a head to head test. Meaning every OTHER torpedo is PRODUCING MORE DAMAGE then this one is. It is THE WORST QUANTUM IN THE GAME NOW. It has nothing to do with "I win." Buttons Nothing to do with 1m splash damage, nothing to do with any of the nonsense that is being spouted.
Because you two have no idea what you are talking about you are arguing the raw numbers on your screen and saying it's op because you have no idea what op is. Because you do not understand that it is doing that for you because does not benefit from Kemocite, It does not benefit from CD reduction, It does not benefit from CF, it does not benefit from Doffs, it doesn't benefit from any of these metrics it is under performing everything else that does benefit from it. So no one cares that it's not splashing 1M across the board we have other items that can. It was never the point. As stated many times, it was builds that suffered.
Do you understand that very easy concept?
The damage it did was to make up for the systems it couldn't match. So we did not need them to get the same outcomes as systems that needed them. You could make a new build and get the same outcome without needing CF, without needing Doffs, without needing Kemocite. You could build up somewhere else and forget about the torpedo. But as it is now it still doesn't benefit from those things even if you wanted it to. How is this hard to understand?
Even at 15 seconds it not even on the level of the Neutronic that is 15 seconds and benefits from reduction. IT does nearly two times the amount of damage and sometimes three if it procs crits enough.
I don't know about most people, but I know for sure, I paid 125.00 for that missle alone. The Akira is a fine ship. The Valdore is also fine. But I have better ships. I am not flying the gorn hunter. I got it for the trait. So the very reason I purchased this bundle has become worth less then a 3 no four of the rep torps. and around 4-5 of the Lobi torps. So what we are saying is make it at least viable. Give it something to make it worth using. Give it the ability to have reductions, give it more damage modifiers, or give it 6 charges, or give it a small boost in damage, give it something to make up for all that it lost. That is not being unreasonable.
What is being unreasonable is telling people that know better, to accept whatever is done to you and be grateful because reasons.
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Just stop replying to them and say nothing.
No, that wasn't the point, that was a statement to provide context to the actual point. Not everyone is just here to boast about their performance in a game, although I can see why you might think that.
The actual point was that this weapon either allowed players to
- too easily destroy
- more enemies than they should
- with less effort than anticipated
This thread is not about my personal feelings and thoughts. The devs clearly think that some combination of the factors mentioned above wasn't right with respect to the Maelstrom. My 'feelings' (/experiences/thoughts/whatever) just happen to align with that observation.
Yeah...I feel that a lot to this day with the plasma embassy consoles, yes they were so OP that people would fill all their science slots with them and they made plasma energy weapons the best in the game...they needed a nerf
But now they're absolutely positively worthless, the proc rate is abysmal and the damage is almost no existent...I've equipped them a few times for the space plasma damage...and I've come out of entire stfs where it hasn't even done 25k total damage
Unfortunately this often tracks with them, they have a history of releasing op items then after they've been popular they just nerf them to oblivion
This is most certainty not a buff.
It is a major nerf.
The entire point was to hold a Mael for 1:30.... and apply a massive fully buffed up burst spike. It was good at that and it hit hard enough to make it worth sitting a weapon slot out that long. You could even make an argument for slotting two and sitting 2 slots out... and hitting one every 45s.
With this change... it is now at 15s per charge less damaging then slotting something like a Neutronic which is also a 15s torp. Or a Delphic if your using HY. Both of those torps and other big boomer torps can be cooled down by traits like Ceaseless momentum, and torpedo cool down duty officers. Meaning they are higher DPS if your just going to spam a mael whenever its up anyway.
If your going to hold a Mael for the 45s it takes to get a 3 charge... it now hits fairly close to the dmg of a Tricobalt, Time device or heavy PEP/Nanopulse ect. Only again it has no way of being cooled down below 45s. A tric has a stupid 15s global but it is easy to hit. The other options like the time device have no such restriction and you can fire 4-5 of them in 45s.
I am a little disappointed to see the new Dev cave so fast on this one. There was nothing wrong with this weapon. It was powerful yes, but the trade off was essentially making players actually do a bit more work. Manual mode firing... and at least a little bit of tactical play holding it for that big boss, and even perhaps actually waiting for a shield to drop. It actually felt like a star trek weapon. Considering he has since released TWO cat 2 bonus dmg Energy dmg consoles into the game... I really expected he was just going to buff everything. If bosses are dying too quickly, BUFF em. Maybe its time for that.
I really don't want to be a negative sounding player... but its hard not to feel a bit bait and switched on this one. The Mael was almost the only reason to buy the first strike bundle. Ya I know the ships are OK... the traits on both are garbage. The Mael was the only reason I bought the pack... and now I will never use em. All well it was a cool idea... back to my bank to pull out what we have all been using for 5+ years.
EDIT: After re reading. I also have to ask. When did you here the devs say it WOULD be adjusted when it was launched. All they said is what they say with anything. If we need to we'll adjust it. I think most people would assume after a few months they had looked it over.
I don't know how to tell you this. Using the Mael was NOT the games top DPS build. Bosses are still going to drop in a couple seconds when any fully loaded out DPS player is around.
What the mael offered was a more Star Trek way to play the game... something everyone has been saying they have wanted for 15 years. No one was one shot ending anything through shields, outside the odd fully buffed hit on a super debuffed target. Torpedo builds can ignore a lot of shields, that has nothing to do with the Mael.
Its hard to say a torpedo that hits for 2m dmg every 1:30 is a god mode cheat... when I have surgical strike DEW builds that hit every single shot north of 200k. The Mael was just fun... and now its just a bad role play torp, looks cool hits alright but its a DPS loss over multiple other options.
They said it when they demo'd it for the first time on the livestream a while back. They have looked at their own data and they clearly stated in the edited patch notes why they were doing this. Whilst the Dev's haven't been on the forums to defend their decision, someone has to, as I believe their data is more expansive than other players.
I have the torp myself, and to be frank, it sorely needed it as it was a ROFL-Stomp weapon, that was more powerful than almost everything else, weapons and abilities, I had to use. The trade off in increased cooldown and the reduction in hit damage per hit, whilst maintaining it's DPS, is perfectly fine with me as it still works well with my build, and now I have more reason to use it as I use a heavy sci build for it anyway. I currently flit between the Quantum Phase torp and this.
I'm perfectly happy with them buffing NPC's, but we all know how that ended up the last time they did that.
Incorrect but believe as you will. I sat on the stream like many people. No he did not say it was getting adjusted for sure. Of course there is never a guarantee things wouldn't get adjusted. There never is. I am a little annoyed that any data they wanted to collect was out there in the first week or two of its being launched... and only now it gets such a major change. I would have actually preferred and respected them dropping the DMG 20% and leaving everything else as is. This change is a drastic change to the design which imo is a mistake. I mean where do they go from here with other torp types (which is something he said on steam). I would have just reduced the dmg on it if they felt that strongly about it and released a photon version if they wanted a faster charge version. Then release a tricobalt version with 1m charges and even bigger booms. This change has left him no where to add anything interesting enough to sell the next bundle.
I own all the games torps. It went from a very niche hard hitting torp... to now being B tier if you don't consider the annoyance of having to baby it in a manual mode. At least if we are talking about full torpedo builds. If you are using as a torp+energy build weapon it is just ya B grade... not the worst thing you could slot but there are multiple A tier options that would be easier to use and provide higher DPS.
I've explained why this thing is happening in my writeup, but nice to see some awareness. And right now it is at 1/2 where it started.