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The Pink Bubble console is exploitable and needs fixing
fleetcaptain5
Member Posts: 5,051 Arc User
What I wanted to vent:
Why does this game even have an AFK penalty anymore if you're going to release consoles that allow players to go AFK anyway?
Some people might say that the deployment of the Jellyfish event ship's console is tactical, but that's simply not true.
Entire missions can be played by hitting a console one time and then walking away from the keyboard, not doing anything else for the other 10 to 15 minutes that the average missions lasts.
I've seen it in Azure Nebula, Borg Disconnected, Swarm, Counterpoint, Defense of SB 1, Tzenkethi Front and several other ones. Even those missions that were designed in a way that other tasks have to be completed are exploitable with this console, since the average Jellyfish captain just leaves those other tasks to others.
The fact that you can hit a console once, not do anything else for 10-15 minutes and not get hit with an AFK penalty, means it's a form of exploiting *. Surely this can't be intentional or an acceptable way of playing a game? If it is, you might as well start selling 'TFO completion buttons' in the C-store - or even better, add such buttons to a gamble box.
The core of the issue is the following:
No other console (or power in general, for that matter)
- has a 100% uptime
- destroys everything in such a large radius around the player
- heals the player on top of that
But this console has, and does.
Moreover, it allows the laziest players not just to be lazy and do nothing for the entire duration of a mission, it also allows them to signal their laziness in the most obnoxious way possible. Gravity wells, Beam FAW, any type of AOE, even kit modules on the ground that delegate some of the damage dealing from a player to an entity (like the Ba'ul obelisks) : each of these have to be manually activated every 15-30 seconds or so, or a bit longer in the case of consoles.
That is how the entire game works, and it makes sense that it works that way - because it actually promotes playing the game.
So this console shouldn't do the opposite. It makes no sense to allow this.
My question and suggestions therefore are:
Why was this console released the way it was, and, more important: why hasn't it been fixed yet or is a fix being planned?
And by 'fix(ed)' I don't mean 'nerf it into oblivion'. The power should remain effective for those that want to use it. But, like all things, it should come with some - any - downside or limitation so that players have to do something else, besides just hitting that console's clicky power once and then come back 15 minutes later. So, either limit its uptime or reduce its radius for example.
The console can still be a viable part of builds or an useful addition then, but without the current ridiculous situation where, literally, pressing a button once is all a player has to do.
* For the record: when I say 'exploiting', I'm not blaming the players doing it. They're using something that was released by Cryptic, who I believe should have thought this better through.
Why does this game even have an AFK penalty anymore if you're going to release consoles that allow players to go AFK anyway?
Some people might say that the deployment of the Jellyfish event ship's console is tactical, but that's simply not true.
Entire missions can be played by hitting a console one time and then walking away from the keyboard, not doing anything else for the other 10 to 15 minutes that the average missions lasts.
I've seen it in Azure Nebula, Borg Disconnected, Swarm, Counterpoint, Defense of SB 1, Tzenkethi Front and several other ones. Even those missions that were designed in a way that other tasks have to be completed are exploitable with this console, since the average Jellyfish captain just leaves those other tasks to others.
The fact that you can hit a console once, not do anything else for 10-15 minutes and not get hit with an AFK penalty, means it's a form of exploiting *. Surely this can't be intentional or an acceptable way of playing a game? If it is, you might as well start selling 'TFO completion buttons' in the C-store - or even better, add such buttons to a gamble box.
The core of the issue is the following:
No other console (or power in general, for that matter)
- has a 100% uptime
- destroys everything in such a large radius around the player
- heals the player on top of that
But this console has, and does.
Moreover, it allows the laziest players not just to be lazy and do nothing for the entire duration of a mission, it also allows them to signal their laziness in the most obnoxious way possible. Gravity wells, Beam FAW, any type of AOE, even kit modules on the ground that delegate some of the damage dealing from a player to an entity (like the Ba'ul obelisks) : each of these have to be manually activated every 15-30 seconds or so, or a bit longer in the case of consoles.
That is how the entire game works, and it makes sense that it works that way - because it actually promotes playing the game.
So this console shouldn't do the opposite. It makes no sense to allow this.
My question and suggestions therefore are:
Why was this console released the way it was, and, more important: why hasn't it been fixed yet or is a fix being planned?
And by 'fix(ed)' I don't mean 'nerf it into oblivion'. The power should remain effective for those that want to use it. But, like all things, it should come with some - any - downside or limitation so that players have to do something else, besides just hitting that console's clicky power once and then come back 15 minutes later. So, either limit its uptime or reduce its radius for example.
The console can still be a viable part of builds or an useful addition then, but without the current ridiculous situation where, literally, pressing a button once is all a player has to do.
* For the record: when I say 'exploiting', I'm not blaming the players doing it. They're using something that was released by Cryptic, who I believe should have thought this better through.
Post edited by baddmoonrizin on
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Comments
I try to avoid that mission as much as possible, but I don't think my weapons have ever automatically returned fire when fired upon.
Is it something specific to that mission?
Personally I think the Obeslisks aren't as bad (even though I don't personally use them either).
At least they, like the Pahvo crystals, have to be reactivated every X number of seconds. And they can be destroyed, plus they don't heal the player if he's standing near them. Going AFK is therefore much more risky or even impossible with those things, so there already are clear downsides to them.
The Jellyfish, on the other hand? Click one time, be done, worry about nothing. Maybe things like the Obelisks should be looked at too, but I don't think they are as problematic as the Jelly console.
It is more an exploitability of some maps/scenarios than it is a particular ship class.
Or even better idea, the console only work for two minutes with less damage output then long cooldown
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
From using my auto fire, and testing it again before I wrote this, Autofire does not fire your weapons when you are fired upon. You have to press something or you will just sit there and take damage. Autofire just fires the next weapon in sequence.
Secondly, the jelly fish damage is not high enough and the fish itself is extremely squishy, you have to build that ship directly to do high levels of damage and if you have the skills and traits necessary to build it out, you have a better ship to use.
On ground things like the crystalline and the Obelisk and such have timers so they have to be set and reset.
You would literally in all these cases be better off just putting a kitted out carrier on the field and letting it do what it does.
All the things that you guys are talking about will without a doubt bite you in the end. Because there is something you specifically don't like, then the company should change it to fit your idea of game play. Shorten This, add That, Move this, take that. You literally want them to change a niche playstyle to fit your ideals of gameplay. Well if that's the case, I believe anyone not able to do 150k In elite should be banned from elites and advanced. It's only fair right? I don't like that I have to carry players that are doing 10-20-100k it's tiring. Blah blah blah.
I also think it's an exploit to have more then one character that you can farm EC and dilithium on. That's an exploit.
I also think it's not fair that they have lock box ships, it's hard to get them. They should remove them. Oh and C-store. They are cheaper but it's not fair to players that can't get money. While we're at it, let's remove the dilithium exchange. I paid for my zen so why should you get it for free. Exploit!
And whats the deal with these traits. If you mix this trait with that trait, that increases your dps too much, i can't keep up, remove those too.
What is that console you have there? Is that doing 20k DPS per fire, not fair, you're exploiting the game, remove those too!
Ah, is that an escort? Why does it have the use of DHC's i can't use those on this ship, thats not fair, remove them!
That cruiser looks a little beefy, whats whit all that HP, lower that!
What is space magic? In a science game? Unheard of. Look how they are collecting all the enemies and making it easier for them to dps, thats not cool, exploit!
Now that we removed everything.... what a great game. Wait, how can you play the game and I can't, thats exploiting your personal wealth while i can't, remove that as well.
It's nonsensical. It is more prudent to just play the game. You will run into things you don't like often, asking for it to be changed is nonsensical when you only have to deal with it every once and a while. You just play. Ignore the white noise or pink bubbles.
Carriers are a different thing. Even if the ship itself is tanky, not firing any weapons with your ship means that sooner rather than later your pets are going to aggro the enemy. And then get destroyed.
After that, the tanky ship might be able to take a lot of damage - perhaps indefinitely indeed - but it won't destroy the enemy ships just by doing that.
So even with a carrier, you'd still have to remain present to keep launching those pets. And yes, I find it lazy too to only use those hangar bays and nothing else - but it's not something that allows the player to go AFK or hit a button once and do nothing else after that.
Sorry, but you are wrong on the 'not high enough damage' thing.
I've seen people destroy entire groups of enemies by themselves on advanced level by just activating the bubble. And yes, that's also easily achieved with other ships, but the difference is that those other ships actually require playing and continuous presence of the player.
The rest of your examples ignore that difference. DHC's, other consoles, traits etc. require continuous actions of the player to be effective. This isn't about DPS or have and have-not's or changing niches in general. It's about changing one specific thing so that just pressing a button once isn't enough to AFK the rest of the mission.
You can't compare actually flying a ship, aiming and activating its weapons or Boff abilities with a limited uptime (and, hence, the requirement to re-activate them every X seconds) with just putting a ship somewhere, activating a console once and being free to walk away and not do anything else for the remainder of the mission.
This is why I explicitly emphasised these three things:
- has a 100% uptime
- destroys everything in such a large radius around the player
- heals the player on top of that
That combination is what makes this console exploitable.
Don't consider the jelly overpowered due to the animation and sluggish movement, but i do notice that other players go TRIBBLE once they see a jellyfish. Maybe the pink animation has a hypnotic effect.
Fun aside, perhaps the animation should be made to match the Ion Storm.
As for the console, instead of immobilization, perhaps a self damaging mechanic could be implemented similar to some miracle worker powers.
Edit: Looking at the tooltip the console should consume Aux power. Perhaps the aux drain should be increased
The Baul has a console that actually scales with other consoles, and it has a trait that actively makes it even easier to do what you are accusing the jellyfish pilots of doing. And you can kit out any thing to do anything. It was around long before the jellyfish. I literally do not have to fly at all a carrier kitted out correctly. The PEts will fly off kill and return. By your standards Carriers should also be nerfed. How is it fair that a carrier can have it's pets on the field forever. Put enough carrier mods on the ship and you can afk in them in advanced and some elites, supposedly the same as you think you can do the jellyfish. So to assuage your single personal problem, we should put timers on hanger pets, and nerf the baul console, and any other consoles that produce a defensible npc? The spearhead refit has a pet that does the same. So does the oddy. I suppose we should also remove the wingman mechanic's of the Jem'hadar.
As for the other stuff. Are they or are they not exploits? If we are nerfing or removing exploits should we ban additional toons? Those toons collecting dil and lobi and ec and zen to all be sent back to a main account, seems pretty sketchy to me. Should we ban traits? Skills? By your standard we should nerf this console. So by my standards we should nerf all that other stuff.
If your complaint is valid, mine should be just as valid. It doesn't have to follow your guideline of if the ship is flown or not. Or that i can make more toons or not, or that i do something or not. Do you see how nonsensical that sounds? Anyone can demand anything for any reason and assume they are being reasonable. I don't think there's a reason to mess with the game more then it already has been. Nerfing items breaking systems, removing playstyles will narrow roads to fit a particular genre of play, and will no doubt in the long run come back to harm everyone because you, a specific person, had an issue with something that takes 7 minutes out of your day.
Hangars have auto-launch you know! You can absolutely go AFK with a Carrier, especially with two consoles giving +60% dmg, speed, turn rate etc on top of the space trait giving bonus damage.
The thing that makes me laugh at some who AFK Irratus is they park above Jupiter station on auto-fire....and almost fail the mission cause they don't have a grav well.....lol. On a side note.... I was guarding Jupiter, parked below and close enough to attack ships coming from Alpha, throwing grav wells etc, absolutely not afk and one guy was raging that I was afk because I was not moving around!
Cryptic should, however, sort this farce out. The bubble is O.P. and should have limitations. I've never seen a time in Irratus (Event) where it was defeated. I was drawn with a single player using multiple accounts with Jellyfish (toons similarly named) who left the TFO when he didn't get his accounts all in the same group. It's as close to botting as you can get.
Never knew auto-launch for pets was a thing. I don't fly carriers that often, but I always found it annoying that I had to keep an eye on the hangar bays - or find out much later that my pets were destroyed while being busy using the rest of the ship.
So that's very useful knowledge, thanks.
The Ba'ul ship has a similar console yes. Except that it doesn't heal the user, so it leaves the user more vulnerable. It also doesn't disable the ship's weapons so you can still shoot enemies and use other powers.
Besides all that, the ship is much rarer and therefore less of a problem (or worth the effort creating a thread for).
That being said, I'm not opposed to Cryptic implementing some max duration for that console as well, since some of its workings are indeed similar to the bubble. They probably have a better understanding of what measures would be reasonable for that console. I'm basing my complaint and suggestions on my own observations from many PUGs, which are more numerous for the Jelly bubble.
Also I believe during Jellyfish Mode you have no shields, hence the health regen. But its not foolproof. You can be overwhelmed, and with the Jellyfish being Immobile, the defense rating is near zero. They're gonna hit you. And larger ships last longer than smaller ones in the AoE, meaning higher chance of getting hit.
The Jellyfish is not an AFK ship, its a strategic ship that loves defense missions. Know where to position, how long to stay there, when to heal, when to move...
You need it in an offensive operation its better to not even bother with Jellyfish Mode and stay mobile.
It has its uses. The problem is some people thinking its an "AFK I Win Button" when it sure as hell is not. While it might be entertaining, I doubt a team of Jellyfish could beat Kobayashi Maru with just Jellyfish Mode. Maybe the original version but not the current version.
Edit: quotes messed up
There certainly is a lot of spamming of (pre-battle) stuff on the ground, yes.
Now that I'm thinking about it, there might be a(nother) common solution to both problems. Have the enemies spawn in different locations instead of always the same ones. Though that might require a lot of work, since all the maps themselves would have to be reworked.
But it would probably help with the V-rex too, to name just another example.
They may be a fairly new concept in STO, but other games that encourage more organized raid groups often have them, and their auras are often tied to their mode change and not something that has to be put in a rotation. Frankly, I think it is a good attempt at expanding roles/playstyles in STO though it apparently annoys the meta crowd to have to deal with something viable that is outside of the familiar envelope.
Usually, the player of that kind of tank does active buffing, healing, or other helpful things that may not be obvious to the other players (which is especially true in STO where 'team' runs are more like four people soloing that just happen to be in the same place), for instance I am usually just as busy flying a jellyfish in bastion mode as I am with any other ship.
I find the huge awkward shapes of various space stations blocking line of fire to swarming ships (e.g. data thief) to be an annoyance. AoE clicky consoles help get rid of those small swarming flies.
My push back is completely in case cryptic were to take into account a thread that had no dissention in it, before I spoke out, and tinker with it. Completely removing a niche playstyle from F2P players because of the inability of a handful of players to understand the concept of the ship and the console and their presence on the map.
I posted just once, on the day the advanced consoles were released, how I was able to put Advanced tactical, or advanced science consoles on a ship along side advanced Eng, the very next day they did an emergency patch to remove it. Could it have been a coincidence? Maybe. But I am not willing to wager if they knew about it or not, till I posted it on a few lives and on the forum to inform players of an overlooked bounty.
Silence can not mean compliance.
Just because one or two players have a misconception of a ship or ability and to then have an argument that made even less sense, when you take into context how the game works for ground with boffs, (AFK) Space with Carriers (AFK) Consoles (AFK) Traits (AFK). It can't be allowed to run amok and risk cryptic snuffing out a playstyle and narrowing the roads players can go down anymore, especially F2P players that have limited resources as is.
The play style may not be for me, but I won't deny players the right to use it because I don't understand it. I don't understand why people like certain ships, and will spend 1.2-8B on a ship that has no ability in dps, but that doesn't mean I believe cryptic should stop selling them, or making them. People should be able to do what they want, how they want, in a game designed to give them the freedom to do so. If you want to DPS, DPS. If you want to RP, RP. If you want to chat, chat. But don't deny others their right to do as they see fit, because you specifically are upset and have a misconception and view things from your view without understanding the wider view. The game is much larger then your window affords you, and in that way its much larger then our wells.
Park BELOW the station's discs, about 5km away, throw a grav well, fire away and there's no issue because there's nothing block the line of fire. Data thieves ALWAYS park below the discs. What alot of folk do is park directly above the discs, so they can't hit the data thieves, and potentially fail the TFO.
Does this workaround not confirm that the shapes of various buildings in that and other TFO are inconvenient to say the least.
The only problem is that it can be (and fequently is) used to go AFK circumvent the AFK-penalty.
The solution is simple, and there's no need to nerf anything:
When determining if the player was AFK, disregard all the damage dealt by this console.
Problem solved.
I think what he's trying to say is not in defense of AFK, but in defense of playstyles that aren't META. People are used to playing a certain way that when they see something that "isn't normal" it could be seen as either exploit and must be removed or AFK and must be punished. Niche playstyles like that offered by the Jellyfish might be misinterpreted. And thus... calls for that niche to be removed for being different affects build and playstyle diversity.
We've already discussed how the Jellyfish plays into a much more defensive Area Denial niche which excells at defensive operations like in, say Borg Disconnected or the Jupiter TFO. But if you try that in something that needs you to keep moving like Undine Assault or the new V'Ger TFO... you're not going to do very well.
I completely agree with you, and the (few) players who use it like that aren't the problem.
The problem are the masses of players who join a public queue, immediately fly to a position where (at least some) enemies will appear, activate jellyfish-mode and then AFK the mission.
They are not doing well.
In fact they hardly contribute at all, and the other players will have to do all the work.
They don't care about doing well, but will deal enough damage to not be AFK-flagged.
That exploit is the problem that needs to be addressed.
I play many niche builds: drain + phaser, energy torpedoes, mixed EPG-energy builds, drain + kinetic torpedoes, tanking, high yield torpedoes, DBB's, Single cannons + turrets, DHC's and so on... I could probably list well over 20 combinations, one or two for each of a few dozen toons. I like to come up with a build I haven't used much or at all on previous toons.
I am, simply put, not in any way opposed to niche builds. But Valoreah is right: AFK'ing isn't 'playing' a niche. It's AFK'ing - and, given the presence of a penalty for it, unwanted behaviour.
The ship and the console aren't the problem, it's the 100% uptime + heal + large radius, which in combination (but especially the 100% uptime) allows players not to do anything besides clicking a console once.
The fact that there are a few missions where that doesn't work, doesn't change the fact that it's still a way of exploiting in all other queues - the majority, in fact. Yes, even in Undine Assault one could circumvent the AFK penalty that way.
Say I could have a console on my ship where I just have to put my ship somewhere, hit FAW once and then my ship would keep firing until the end of the mission, even if I didn't press a single button or key for the other 10 to 15 minutes.
Would such a thing really not be a problem because there might be two or three missions where doing so wouldn't be effective? Surely everyone would see that it's still a problem if the 'tactic' worked in the other 95% of the game.