Personally, I still say too much DPS is not the issue. It is not having enough content designed for higher DPS with rewards attractive enough to get the bulk of the players who are interested in that level of difficulty engaged with that content.
I would have no issues with Elite Random TFO's I would love it or even put a level in between advanced and elite. Also I'm not a huge DPS person but I do have a few chars which can pack a punch not quiet like those DPS Channel guys but enough to consider Advanced TFO's to easy. But I'm a a rewardxxxx so I love my extra chest of marks. Really would love to higher difficulties for randoms.
C-Store Inc. is still looking for active members on the fed side. If you don't have a fleet feel free to contact me in game @stegi.
I have no desire and have never been behind pushing normal level players into advanced or advance into Elite who do not want to advanced upwards. I am all for players being able to play how they want to. At the same time at some point a player needs to take responsibly for their own build and their own piloting rather than blaming everyone else around them. If the problem can be fixed by piloting or small changes to your own equipment then the problem isn’t really the other players but your setup.
See, I've never seen anyone blame Dark, or anyone else, for their builds. Nobody ever does that.
Why should Player group A be asked to changed their setup and accommodate everyone else. All because Player group B doesn’t want to change their setup and accommodate anyone else. What gives one group more right then the other group to be the one everyone has to accommodate to?
Except that's not what's happening. Nobody is asking Player group A to change their setup, and accommodate everyone else. Nary a one. Instead, in comes Elite Player group B, stomping on Advanced Player group A, and demanding the latter change their builds, subsidiarily shaming them for not doing so. THAT is what people take exception to! I don't care how Dark fares in his Elites. I let him be. But then don't enter 'my' Advanced TFO, and tell the ppl there they stink and need to 'git gud.' Those players are already good for the level they play at.
The players that did have problems was 100% because they needed to "git gud" If the player is failing to keep up with the causal everyday player then we need to stop blaming the high DPS players and take a look at how to tweak that build and piloting to fix the problem.
That is a bit of a double-edged sword. If a player constantly fails at their level, then are they really at that level? Like if I were to go into an Elite, and fail miserably, then I'm simply not an Elite player. Waxing philosophical here for a moment, in essence, everyone is always 'good enough' at their own level. Consequently, I have yet to see anyone blame high DPS players, except when said Elite players enter a lower level, clearly too easy for them, and start vaping the map. Does this occur a lot? Not in my runs, really; but there are, even at Advanced, players who are likely close to being just Regular players, and those who approach Elite level (and thus will be considered to be Elite players, by some). Edge-cases like this will always exist.
I completely agree. @jonsills is not wrong and makes an excellent point.
Had this happen a few times during the Invictus event running around in the Voth Ground BZ. I would approach a capture point where there happened to be another player already engaged with the Voth to capture the point. I would start to assist when I would get a tell from the player asking if I would not mind finding a different point to capture so they could work on this one alone. Absolutely! No problem whatsoever."
^^ THIS is the right mindset. It's never been about a right to be somewhere, but simply about common decency and good sportsmanship.
“Sure, I can provide all kinds of data. I think you missed the point though in that even all the data you and I may have, it is not a complete picture. Only Cryptic has access to all of the data over much greater lengths of time to do a proper analysis of it all. We are looking at a limited amount of data for over a very limited timeframe. I posted a few charts earlier in the thread and from what I saw in those logs, it was not your run of the mill average player doing huge spike damage.
Here is one from a player that hit 357K DPS in an ISA run.”
As you know there are a higher percent of DPS players in ISE/ISE outside of ISE/ISE they are far rarer. Secondarily I don’t see a problem in that chart. None of the 4 causals players look like they are losing DPS because of the high DPS player. None of the 4 causal players are unable to take part and none of them are being pushed anywhere near AFK.
I see no evidence in that chart of the high DPS player causing any problems for the low DPS players. Furthermore, if I am reading that right all 4 causal players are in the normal range for 4 causals players. It’s hard to tell from that chart scale but I am sure you can confirm the 4 causals player are doing in the range of 15k to 50k+ which is the level you would expect them to do without the high DPS player. Possibly in the range of 15k to 100k for the green player. Can you confirm that is the case?
Can you please now switch to DMG Chart so we can see how many of those 4 causals every day players at the bottom are doing in a range of 100k to 300k+ spike DPS and instant killing NPC’s? If all 5 players as I expect is the case are doing enough damage to instant vaporising NPC’s then even if we remove that top end DPSers we are still in the case of 4 everyday causal players instant vaporising NPC’s. Plus if the 4 causal players are able to do spike DPS in the range of 100k+ then the high DPSers clearly isn't wiping out everything leaving nothing for the causal players.
If that is the case, I really don’t see a problem with the chart and I see no negative impact from the high DPS player in this case and what that high DPSers is being blamed for is what the 4 causal players are still doing.
“One question I wanted to ask, are you suggesting that players who are built for and fully capable of Advanced level content are causing issues in Normal difficulty content? To that I would agree it is part of the problem as well.”
In some cases but my main point is the causal everyday players are doing the majority of the vaporising NPC’s and then the high end DPSers which in most cases are having little impact on the causal players are being blamed. I fully believe if we had a magic wand and removed the high end DPSers from the game very little would change in the average run. Players would still find the NPC’s are being vaporising because its not the high end DPSers doing the bulk of this. They are just being blamed.
“No offense, but you are not understanding the problem here. If you read what others have posted in this thread, under normal circumstances their build is perfectly fine and works just great for the level they are comfortable with. Under normal circumstances, they are not falling behind.”
No, I understand. What I am saying is they are falling behind the normal circumstances and normal causal every day players. They are mistaking the normal players as DPS players. Then instead of matching the normal players they are blaming the DPS players and asking the DPS player to step down. When the problem isn’t the DPS players it’s the causal every day players instant vaporising the majority of NPC’s.
“I understand there are some things outside your ability to turn off with regard to buffs. With that said, there is absolutely nothing stopping you from waiting ten seconds before zerging in to obliterate everything on the map in order to let others get a chance to play. Remember, you are stepping down to their sandbox, not them stepping up to play in yours where it would be perfectly appropriate to ask them to step up their game.”
No its not there sandbox. Its our sandbox. I have as much right to that sandbox as them. There is nothing stopping them changing 1 engine on their setup and zerging around as much as me. They have no more right to ask me to change my setup then I have to ask them to change their setup. If the mission is not failing then everyone has the right to play how ever they want to.
Its not there play area just for them. It’s like when I play a dreadnought carrier and a Escort zips around the map out pacing me. I have no right to ask that Escort to slow down as its there sandbox as well.
I was going to write out yet another reply trying to get across what others have said ad nauseam in this thread, however sad as it is to say I think we are at a point where players of a certain mindset are stuck in their thought process.
And no, I will not humor you any further in your attempt to turn this into the average every day player being the sole source of the problem. If you want to believe that, more power to you. Feel free to do so. From my experience and the limited information I have, it certainly does not appear to be the case.
No its not there sandbox. Its our sandbox. I have as much right to that sandbox as them.
Hopefully it will sink in this time The issue is not about rights. It is about common courtesy and decency toward your fellow player. If you cannot grasp this very simple concept, and how you bringing your super high DPS build into content that you are clearly overbuilt for is forcing others into a style of play they are not comfortable with, then I simply do not know what to tell you.
I am not asking you to write a long reply. I am asking you to flip the chart to DMG chart and past the graph and to confirm the average causal players are doing in the sustained DPS range of 15k to 50k. Let the data speak for its self.
You say I am stuck in my way or my thought process but it sounds like you are the one that is stuck. You are the one that refuses to acknowledge the data that goes against your position. First you didn't want to acknowledge my data, now you don't see to want to acknowledge you own data. I am not asking for opinion, I am trying to look at hard facts.
Your own data seems to suggest the high DPS player is not forcing the causal every day player into a different playstyle. So why are we still blaming the high DPS player. You say its a simple concept but the data doesn't back up what you are saying. I am happy for you to prove me wrong and post the chart I asked for. If it shows differently from from I describe I will hold my hands up and say I got that wrong. But if it shows what I expect don't you think you should acknowledge perhaps you made a mistake and the high DPSers is not having the impact you thought and the causals are vaporising on mass despite the high DPSers being present. Its an important piece of data for this discussion.
I am not trying to turn this into the average every day player being the sole source of the problem. I didn't say sole source, I said majority and I said there are outliner cases where high DPSers cause problems but it is very, very rare. From my point of view the majority of every day players are instant vaporising NPCs on mass on normal and this instant vaporising NPCs is being mistaken as being done by high DPS players and then high DPS players are being blamed.
For me its not about being right or wrong its about what the evidence and data shows. It seems to me you don't like what the data is showing.
"Hopefully it will sink in this time The issue is not about rights. It is about common courtesy and decency toward your fellow player. "
Which goes both ways which is the bit you seem to struggle with. You seem to not care about showing common courtesy and decency to the high DPSers and you want to stomp on there fun so you can have your own fun and I am not even sure they are causing the problems you are blaming them for outside of some rare instances.
Dude, get off of your Elite run examples (ISE, Korfez, etc.), and get off of talk about players attempting content above their ability. No one but you is talking about that. I love ya, man, but you're frustrating as hell. LOL
At the risk of sounding pedantic, the entire thread has been about people not playing at their ability, be that so called elite players coming into normal/advanced runs, or normal/advanced coming into elite runs. The entire point being those examples was to demonstrate that there is already precedent for performance tests in game and demonstrate that people have an effect on whether a TFO can succeed or not. It's been about what should be done if anything about people not playing at their level, even if more focus has been on so called elites playing on lesser difficulty. People wanted to act like it was some egregious sin to dare suggest a performance check when those already exist in multiple forms. Also as a segway into the numbers regarding normal TFOs.
Yes, you can turn a lot of that off in STO. Absolutely you can. You can make some very, very, very simple changes to let others have the ball and enjoy themselves too.
Count to ten before starting your full impulse mad rush zerg to obliterate everything in sight
Forego using keybinds
Do not click on Deuterium Surplus
If you see another teammate engaged a target, move on to another target and let them handle it
These are just a few very, very, very simple things you can do in your uber DPS ship without needing to change your loadout or any gear at all.
You accuse me of applying arbitrary standards and you come at me with this? I legitimately had to double take reading that. I will give you credit on one thing, you're the first that's actually answered the question of how long people should wait.
Now getting into this. Let's suppose for sake of discussion I were to do these 4 things on my end so you have a better chance to participate. What are you going to do on your end at the same time so you have the greatest chance to participate? For example, are you going to make sure you have more than one movement power on your ship? Are you going to use Deuterium Surplus? Are you going to make sure your equipment is at least mk xii very rare? Are you going to make sure your weapons are on autofire? So far I'm only seeing what you think others should do on their end, while simultaneously changing nothing yourself. So if you're going to expect me to do the 4 things above as hypotheticals, what do you plan to do on your end at the same time?
Going through the list one by one.
-10 second wait: Again you're the first to actually try to quantify a wait time to have a debate so you get credit for this. This isn't the most unreasonable request I've hard, but even then begs another question. If I give you the 10 seconds to get to the target and start fighting and you're not there, do I get to roll in and start playing or do you expect me to wait longer? This will make little difference in the long run but this one I will grant for the moment since you were willing to at least quantify it.
-Keybinds: So I'm going to respectfully ask, how have you been a programmer for 30 years as you claim but don't understand the convenience of having everything in one place? If you think keybinds are an issue then you'll think I'm a monster when I tell you that I'm using a Razer Naga mouse with the 12 buttons on the side, a Logitech G910 keyboard with 9 programmable buttons and 3 profiles for said buttons, with a Logitech G13 gamepad containing 22 programmable buttons along with a thumb joystick and 2 buttons next to it and 3 profiles for the G13. Overall I have the potential for around 105 customizable keys if you count each of the Logitech items as a separate key and the ones on the Naga. Now I say that to bring this up, keybinds can have an effect on DPS sure, but they're not going to have the kind of effect you're hoping for in this instance. Originally I never planned for the G13 but I jacked my wrist up for awhile in an airsoft match some years back. Should my wrist ever bug me I can go to the G13 since it has a wrist wrest. Point being dude, there are many reasons for keybinds. I wouldn't force others to change their keybinds to something they're uncomfortable with, nor am I changing mine.
-Deuterium Surplus: This is a device everyone in this game can get. Complete the Spectres Arc in the Available missions area, Do the Alhena System Patrol and the Contract mission from there, get your engineering crafting to level 5 and there you go. For me Deuterium Surplus is simply a bonus on top of what I already have in the form of boffs. This is not going to effect my DPS how you want it to as I can still get to where I'm going. I suppose however you'll be allowed to use Deuterium though right?
-teammate engaged to a target: this is so vague that it's not even funny. Let's suppose we're in a run of Khitomer Vortex and I see that the guy on my side is struggling with the probes and will not be able to stop them before they get to the gate, and thus cost us the optional (normal/advanced), am I supposed to just eat the optional fail or do I get to actually nuke the probes? Also if the map doesn't permit me to step back and let the teammate handle it, what do you propose I do? Am I supposed to sit on my hands and pretend nothing is going on? Am I supposed to just dry fire my weapons and pray it dies in time?
You say there are more "very simple things you can do" so what are some of these others? Because so far what I'm seeing are simply arbitrary nit picks you're using while expecting people to micromanage themselves purely so you can have fun. The closest to reasonable you've had is asking for the 10 seconds and the only one so far I would actually consider doing. Also on this point, I look forward to seeing what you plan to at the same time I would be doing these hypotheticals.
You're still not reading what other people are writing, Dark. You're still talking about somebody like me going into an Elite queue and failing to provide the damage output needed. And you know what? We agree with you. I, for example, have absolutely no business being in an Elite TFO, in much the same sense as I have no business being in NASCAR - I can drive well enough, but I'm not a professional racer.
By the same token, though, NASCAR drivers have no business taking their racing vehicles onto I-5. And what you're insisting on is that, metaphorically, all I really need to do is slap a supercharger and a nitrous tank onto my '05 Hyundai so I can keep up with you during commutes. Why should I have to "git gud" when, absent the presence of an Elite player who just wants to smear a Normal TFO so they can feel powerful, I'm already more than "gud" enough?
I'm reading what people are writing, and while there are a few who are being reasonable in their approach, such as yourself, there are others who are not.
Now I agree the Nascar driver shouldn't be taking a race vehicle onto the interstate, but that's not what we're talking about here at all. This entire thread started with someone saying they found issue with people coming into TFOs and nuking things before they had a chance to participate and arguing there should be DPS limits, and some arguing those they labeled elites should stay in elite. I brought up the elite examples to show two things, first one being that it goes both ways. If they're going to say folks like myself should stay in elite then they should be made to stay out of advanced and elite if they're not ready for them. Second being if they're going to say I should have to "tone it down" then I get to demand they tone it up. Again it goes both ways. If they really want to make sure everyone is on equal footing and has a chance to participate, then institute the Gear Check, Performance Check and Dungeon Journal. It will ensure those looking to get into higher tier content are ready for said content on equal footing with everyone else seeking to break into the content. If you can pass the minimum checks, you will pass the content and anything beyond the minimums is crazy.
I also brought up the DPS examples to show that what people think they're seeing isn't actually what they're seeing. They think they're seeing uber DPS in their normal modes, but what they're actually seeing is the combined spike damage of their team. If you have 4 people averaging 30k that all spike up to 90k from hitting their powers, that's a combined spike DPS of 360k which will melt things in normal modes. If you don't get there in a few seconds, nothing will survive. Now finally on this point, certain people have advocated that there is too much DPS and that there should be limits, and people like myself should have to tone it down if playing on something less than elite either by the devs toning everyone down, or as a "courtesy". In other words they expect me to change to suit their fun, yet don't want to change anything of their own so they can have a better chance at having fun because they "like where they're at". Okay if someone likes where they're at then fine, you don't have to change anything, but you also don't get to whine when there are natural consequences for the result of that decision.
Lastly I'm essentially being told that I need to stick to elite only, and if I do want to play on something less than elite that I need to do this, that, and another thing to micromanage myself so I'm not "nuking the map before others can participate", which usually means running a stripped down naked version of everything by the time it's said and done. In other words, nerf yourself for me or don't come into the content. In other words they are aloud to have their fun without having to change anything, but somehow I'm expected to change and micromanage everything to walk on eggshells around them. Okay if I'm expected to walk on eggshells around them and make changes so they can have a chance to participate, they're going to also make some changes so they can have a better chance to participate. It goes both ways but certain people want it all to be on my side while they don't change a thing, and straight up that is not happening.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
While I haven't had much to add to this as my builds are probably much like marik's, I am really glad that the discussion has stayed civil, except for the odd troll post which gets removed (Thank you BMR)
I'd also like to take a bit of time to thank BMR for her Service to our country. I and my family really appreciate those who keep this country safe. My own father is a vet too, and he's still going at 88.
Now, back to your regularly scheduled back and forth
Now a LTS and loving it.
Just because you spend money on this game, it does not entitle you to be a jerk if things don't go your way.
I have come to the conclusion that I have a memory like Etch-A-Sketch. I shake my head and forget everything.
It's true that I suggested nerfing top end dps. I don't think it should be possible to instantly vape ANY of the game's content. Having elite level dps should make it easier, but not THAT easy. I think it's just not healthy for the game as a whole.
I said I wouldn't consider changing my build, because it wouldn't fix the problem, that high end dps is just too high. Making my own dps equally high wouldn't make anything better.
The alternative would be to raise the bottom. Make it EASIER to get higher dps, so EVERYONE could instantly vape normal content, and everyone could compete in elite content. I'm not sure this would be any better either.
In the end, what I want to see is a flatter curve, where the top dps is higher than average, but not SO high. As I said before, I really don't see them doing it, let alone HOW they could do it.
Others have said many things I would say myself, JonSills and BMR, especially. I want to thank everyone for keeping things so civil! This is often such a hot topic.
Both are reasonable, I also think DPSers can meet up and do content together, like a weekly thing, you know, keep in touch and stuff,
I'd also like to take a bit of time to thank BMR for her Service to our country. I and my family really appreciate those who keep this country safe. My own father is a vet too, and he's still going at 88.
Awww... That is so sweet. 🥰 Thank you for your support. 😊
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator and Resident She-Wolf
Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
“Yes, everyone has the opportunity to and can improve. Yes, everyone can make "simple changes" to "add a bit of mobility". Can you step back for a moment and understand not everyone wants to do it?”
Sure not everyone wants to do that and that’s their choice. At the same time if they don’t want to fix the problem with there build that is making them fall behind that’s on them. They shouldn’t be expecting everyone else to change their setup to accommodate them, all because they don’t want to accommodate anyone else. That is what I believe Darkbladejk is trying to get across.
Why should Player group A be asked to changed their setup and accommodate everyone else. All because Player group B doesn’t want to change their setup and accommodate anyone else. What gives one group more right then the other group to be the one everyone has to accommodate to?
THIS. ALL OF THIS. PREACH BROTHER. This is exactly my problem with what people are advocating. If people want to say they think there is too much DPS in game, fine they're entitled to that opinion. For that matter I've even looked at a few damage charts and thought to myself "what would I ever do with that", and is one of the reasons I choose not to go higher than I am on my tank. At the same time I'm not asking for those people with the higher DPS to be nerfed. People are allowed to think whatever they want, and are allowed to voice their opinions.
My issue is when people say they think the DPS is too high and they're having trouble participating as a result, and asking for changes to be made by the devs, or advocating people like myself who would fall under that uber DPS by their definition should have to nerf ourselves and micromanage ourselves so they are able to feel like they're participating more, but they don't want to do anything to help themselves because they "like where they're at." In other words as you said, Player A (me) is being asked to change my setup to accommodate Player B, because he doesn't feel like he's getting to play as much. Player B expects me to change my setup for him, but doesn't want to change anything on his own setup to allow himself a greater chance to compete. Thus wanting me to cater exclusively to them and be responsible for their fun, and I'm not doing that. Why should I have to accommodate them when they're not willing to accommodate me and make some changes themselves? That's why I suggested the Gear Check, Performance Check and Dungeon Journal. People want to say they're having a hard time competing. Okay let's get some systems in there to make sure they have sufficient stats and knowledge so that they are able to do exactly that. If they can complete it in the check maps, they will 99% be able to beat it on the actual TFO maps. If they can't complete it in the check map, they won't be able to complete the actual TFO. Thus no one has any excuses after that.
Someone says they like where they're at and don't want to change anything, okay fine then don't change anything. But don't whine that other people won't let you participate when you chose to dig your heels in and keep doing the same thing over and over expecting different results. If you're not willing to change to help yourself, you don't get to demand that I change something of mine to help you either. If they're not willing to take steps to fix their own problems, why are they expecting me to fix it for them?
No offense, but you are not understanding the problem here. If you read what others have posted in this thread, under normal circumstances their build is perfectly fine and works just great for the level they are comfortable with. Under normal circumstances, they are not falling behind. It is only when a player with a vastly superior build is dropping down to their level and wiping out the map is where the problem arises. To use the basketball analogy again, normally a middle school player playing with other kids their age in a game do not have an issue. When an NBA player drops into their game and totally dominates it to the extent none of the kids can even touch the ball the problem comes into focus.
Remember, there is an enormous difference between how something like an ISA run will go if all the players are relatively the same level versus 4 players or less being at one level with 1 or 2 high DPS players on the team.
I never said my data is complete or perfect or totally correct or represents the true picture, nor did I question the validity of your data. I simply said we are working with a very limited data set. Because it is a very limited data set, we cannot know with any reasonable degree of certainty what the actual overall picture is. You are looking at data from less than a handful of specific map runs to compare with what has to be hundreds of thousands of TFOs being run in a year and suggesting your results are the complete and accurate picture and therefore any other findings are totally wrong. That simply is not true. No one outside of Cryptic can see all of the data and can make a proper analysis. Facts do matter, but you need all of the facts first.
As far as everyday casual players being overpowered for Normal content, I do not believe I ever suggested that was never the case. I know from my own experience that my average, run of the mill alts who are not geared to the teeth absolutely annihilate Normal difficulty content.
Whether it is an average player like me or some ultra high DPS player annihilating the Normal difficulty content is not the issue. The issue is that there simply is not sufficient content designed for and balanced with higher performing builds in mind for players at higher performance levels to engage with. I do not blame any Advanced or Elite level players from playing Normal difficulty event content as there is no other option available.
If you want to suggest that people are unfairly categorizing the Elite DPS players as the only cause of the problem, go right ahead. I certainly will not disagree with that. Keep in mind though, to a brand new player everyone higher level than they are is a high DPS player.
No potsey understands it perfectly from where I'm sitting, you're just choosing to move the goal posts while refusing to provide data you say you have. First you claimed that high DPSers coming into lower difficulty was a problem, yet now in the line in bold you say that's not the issue. So what is the issue then, because I don't think you know what you're advocating anymore. Either it's the so called elites coming in and vaping everything or it's not, yet now you're wanting to add stipulations to it and move the goal post. Now you've opened it up so anyone can be considered an uber DPS with your new player analogy even though for the playerbase they're average.
You're right about one thing, we don't have 100% of the data as we're not able to monitor the thousands of runs that happen daily in game. I will give you that much. At the same time you don't need to have 100% of the data either to make educated inferences based on what we have. If for example I'm looking through a stack of paintings and I see the top half of a canvas sticking out and a woman covering her top with her hands and only flesh tones with no visible signs of clothing, without the ability to see the other half of the canvas it's not exactly unreasonable to assume the painting is of a naked model. Can I prove that's what it is without seeing the other half of the painting, no I can't, but based on preponderance of evidence, what conclusion do you expect me to draw?
The evidence potsey has presented so far shows that what people are seeing isn't actually uber DPS, but the combined might of their team. Per the example I gave previously, if you have 4 people in a team at 30k DPS each, which is middle of player average, that is a combined DPS of 120k. If those people hit all of their powers and spike up to 90k, that's a new combined spike DPS of 360k. I shouldn't need to tell you that things will melt super fast on normal mode under that kind of pressure due to lack of HP alone without even having to take debuffs and such into account. If a regular joe goes in and can't get there in time, he's not seeing an uber DPSer, but the illusion of one.
If you're going to reject Potsey's evidence, then logically we must also reject your evidence which takes us right back to square one. If you want to say the problem is uber DPS, you're entitled to that opinion. But without evidence it's just that, your opinion, nothing more nothing less. You want to say it's uber DPSers that are the problem, SHOW ME THE EVIDENCE. Because so far potsey has provided far more evidence, and based on the evidence we do have, people are getting to play, and the ones nuking things aren't the uber DPS, but the average players like yourself. So I guess that means you need to get nerfed too.
It's true that I suggested nerfing top end dps. I don't think it should be possible to instantly vape ANY of the game's content. Having elite level dps should make it easier, but not THAT easy. I think it's just not healthy for the game as a whole.
I said I wouldn't consider changing my build, because it wouldn't fix the problem, that high end dps is just too high. Making my own dps equally high wouldn't make anything better.
The alternative would be to raise the bottom. Make it EASIER to get higher dps, so EVERYONE could instantly vape normal content, and everyone could compete in elite content. I'm not sure this would be any better either.
In the end, what I want to see is a flatter curve, where the top dps is higher than average, but not SO high. As I said before, I really don't see them doing it, let alone HOW they could do it.
Others have said many things I would say myself, JonSills and BMR, especially. I want to thank everyone for keeping things so civil! This is often such a hot topic.
If you want to say it's not healthy for the game and look at it from a balance perspective, that's a completely different ballgame and discussion to saying "I think there is too much DPS and the devs should do something about it because I/someone else can't participate because things die too fast" and advocating changes based on the subjectiveness of what one person considers fun.
I have to ask though. If you think the problem is high end DPS, have you tried to parse any of the maps you've been in to see what is actually going on, or are you just assuming that because it died fast there must be an uber DPS in the run? Do you have actual evidence and logs we can look at? If you do I would love to see them. Because the logs will tell the full story of what's actually going on. Otherwise without evidence it comes off as you demanding/advocating others be nerfed based on your personal preferences of what you find to be fun. In other words you are allowed to have fun at the lower end of the DPS spectrum, but people like myself on the opposite end should be punished and cater to you.
As to seeing a flatter curve, this gets into some murky territory because then you have to answer what you think the maximum should be. In fact I'm going to ask you, if I were to hand you a magic wand like you stole a wand from Cosmo or Wanda of the Fairly Oddparents, what would you say the top absolute max DPS should be? Clearly you think what's going on right now is too much and you have some kind of standard in mind, so I'm asking you to quantify that standard. Give us a number to work with? We talking 1m DPS as the max? 500k? 250k? what are we talking?
Flattening the DPS curve isn't going to solve your problems, all you're doing is changing the percentages without ever addressing why you're seeing those problems to start with. If you have a mob with 1m health, and someone with 100k DPS, it will take 10 seconds to drop that mob. You could lower that DPS to say 10k, but if you don't change the mob health you've made that person's investment into that build 10x worse off than it was before. If you change the mob health to 100k and the DPS to 10k, you're not changing anything as the percentages are still the same.
As for changing your build, if you like where you're at and don't want to change, that's fine. However any and all potential issues will remain as they are because you've chosen not to change. Such as you not being able to get there in time to participate and you're no better off than you were before. Which begs the question that I have to ask, if you're not willing to change your build to give yourself the greatest chance to participate, why should I be asked to change so you can participate?
Because to be blunt, I don't buy the "courtesy" argument when folks are asking me to change for them, but won't change anything for me. Where is my courtesy in them also making sure they have done everything possible on their end while asking me to make changes? So far I've seen none of that from certain people in here.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
Is it "micromanaging" to ask you to keep your Elite stuff up in the Elite TFOs, instead of coming into Normal queues just so you can feel like a god amongst mere mortals?
Meanwhile, the only suggestions you've given me (or anyone else, for that matter) is how to micromanage our own experiences to make them more like yours. Maybe I don't want to strive to be the very best, like no one ever was. Maybe I just want to play a nice relaxing game.
Oh, and I just went and read the thread about how to get Deuterium Surplus. So, to meet your standards on any toon I want to run a Normal TFO with, I need to get to level 65, then complete the Specters arc, then go run a patrol in the Alhambra system, then have my Engineering to at least 5 and have whatever raw materials are needed to make the batteries, and then I have to craft as many of the batteries as I might happen to need. On each toon.
Dude, if I wanted another job, I'd go get one that paid me actual cash money.
Well, I managed to talk another couple of old friends in to play STO again.
One had an older Fleet Excelsior, one had one of the Oddy's. Both were playing regularly about 3 to 4 years ago, both were what people would class as "Whales" for the time, both had spent hundreds of £'s in the game.
Both lasted about 9 hours and quit again.
While certain people here argue over semantics, STO is unable to keep a hold of former whale players, and therefore losing out in more and more potential revenue. That's 6 former players I've tried to get back into the game and 6 former player who lasted less than a day and it was down to two things, having TFO maps wiped out infront of them, and that same thing happening over and over again to the point they said said "nope...seeya" and left.
For the second player the final straw for her was on a NORMAL...yes...NORMAL Infected Conduit. I figured that none of the attack pattern credit card folks would show up down in the lower levels. I was wrong. One tiny little ship essentially wiped out half the map in seconds. She left after we got out of that TFO.
"You know when that shark bites, with its teeth dear... scarlet billows start to spread..."
Is it "micromanaging" to ask you to keep your Elite stuff up in the Elite TFOs, instead of coming into Normal queues just so you can feel like a god amongst mere mortals?
Meanwhile, the only suggestions you've given me (or anyone else, for that matter) is how to micromanage our own experiences to make them more like yours. Maybe I don't want to strive to be the very best, like no one ever was. Maybe I just want to play a nice relaxing game.
Oh, and I just went and read the thread about how to get Deuterium Surplus. So, to meet your standards on any toon I want to run a Normal TFO with, I need to get to level 65, then complete the Specters arc, then go run a patrol in the Alhambra system, then have my Engineering to at least 5 and have whatever raw materials are needed to make the batteries, and then I have to craft as many of the batteries as I might happen to need. On each toon.
Dude, if I wanted another job, I'd go get one that paid me actual cash money.
First with Deuterium Surplus, those are NOT my standards, but the hardcoded standards from Cryptic themselves. Get mad at them if you don't like it. Personally I would just make it available baseline as an engineering recipe but I have no control over that. Heaven forbid you actually have to play the game a little to earn something for free. If you're goofing about and picking up resource nodes anyways, how is it going to kill you do devote some of those to crafting the battery? If you don't want to use Deuterium Surplus that's on you as it's a free thing anyone in game can earn. Otherwise if you do then that's how you get it per Cryptic. So don't come at me over it when I'm not the one who made it that way.
Now with regards to the micromanaging stuff. In elite I am managing things for my own fun of my own accord. Nothing made me go in there to that elite run, I chose to go in there. The difference here is you are advocating that I should have to micromanage things to suite YOUR fun while changing nothing on your end.
If you on one end are going to advocate that I should have to micromanage what I do on my side so others can feel like they've participated enough, likewise I am going to also demand they do everything in their power on their end to make sure they can participate as well. To say that I should have to essentially nerf myself and micromanage myself walking on eggshells for the fun of another, while simultaneously that guy gets to do anything he wants with no changes is pure hypocrisy and I'm not doing that. Dude can fire himself out a torpedo tube if he doesn't like it.
If Player A expects Player B to make changes so they can feel like they've participated enough, Player B also gets to demand Player A make changes so they have done everything they can to participate. If you are not willing to even try to change anything on your end to alleviate a problem you say you're having, why on earth should I have to change what I'm doing to help you when you won't even help yourself? If you say you're having a problem participating but won't even change one thing to try to help yourself, then you must not care as much as you want us to believe or you would do something about it.
If you don't want to change anything then don't. I can't make you change anything, but you need to be aware if you keep doing the same thing over and over again without being willing to change at all, then you will keep experiencing the same problems again and again and again. I am not responsible for your subjective feeling of having not participated enough.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
Is it "micromanaging" to ask you to keep your Elite stuff up in the Elite TFOs, instead of coming into Normal queues just so you can feel like a god amongst mere mortals?
Jon, players who wouldn't usually play normal difficulty queues do so during events in order to complete the events for the prize. If it feels like "elite stuff" is being done in normal queues I apologize. This is not the intent. I do take steps to minimize monopolization of specific queues by not always using emergency power to weapons, or attack pattern beta, or a firing mode.
Meanwhile, the only suggestions you've given me (or anyone else, for that matter) is how to micromanage our own experiences to make them more like yours. Maybe I don't want to strive to be the very best, like no one ever was. Maybe I just want to play a nice relaxing game.
Many players who don't usually play normal difficulty queues also like to play a nice relaxing game.
Oh, and I just went and read the thread about how to get Deuterium Surplus. So, to meet your standards on any toon I want to run a Normal TFO with, I need to get to level 65, then complete the Specters arc, then go run a patrol in the Alhambra system, then have my Engineering to at least 5 and have whatever raw materials are needed to make the batteries, and then I have to craft as many of the batteries as I might happen to need. On each toon.
Dude, if I wanted another job, I'd go get one that paid me actual cash money.
Deuterium Surplus is a wee bit over rated in my opinion and really only comes in handy for "full mobility" runs of Infected Space. But, it is something that the game has made available so there will be players who keep it handy.
Using an Emergency Conn Hologram is all that's needed to get around a little bit quicker. I think one reason the ECH gets used a lot is that it's so easy to get from the Phoenix store. The ECH to me isn't really about meeting anyone's standards.. it just comes in handy.
Many of the things often mentioned aren't really "elite stuff" but just ways to get around things in the game such as being stuck in red alert so often. Even things like keybinds are often used to make things easier on "not quite as youthful as they used to be" fingers and as a side benefit seem to make gameplay more relaxing and pleasant.
Yes, game play in 2023 isn't quite the same as some of the Star Trek battles we watched on TV in the 1960's.
I can see I'm wasting my energy here - pottsey doesn't see what I'm saying, while DB willfully rejects the idea that respect toward other players might have to flow both ways.
@darkbladejk I have taken the time to respectfully read everything you have posted in this thread carefully. I hate to say this but it is more than abundantly clear that you just do not have a grasp on what the problem is, nor do you have any clue what people have respectfully tried to tell you. Repeatedly.
The only thing that I see here that's abundantly clear Val is you not knowing nearly as much as you pretend to while displaying a self-righteous arrogance and entitlement that if someone disagrees with you that they magically don't understand the problem and only you do. You've more than displayed by your actions that you believe none can disagree with you for any valid reason as in your mind they either need to "learn to read" or "don't understand the problem" as you make excuse after excuse as to why you can't do this that or the other thing, and everyone else should have to play around you and cater to you while you give them nothing in return. Now do you want me to keep going on this or do you want to have an actual discussion?
Repeating this same mantra yet again seals it. You simply do not understand simple human concepts like good sportsmanship and common decency. That much is crystal clear.
What's clear is that you throw around words like decency and sportsmanship but do not practice what you preach at all. You sit here and demand people like myself should have to use lesser builds and nerf ourselves, go without keybinds and all this junk so YOU can have fun and YOU can feel like you participated, while hiding behind the "be a good sport and show some common decency to your team" mantra and refusing to change nothing on your end to help yourself. In other words I have to change for you but you don't have to change anything for me. Then when people like myself call you on your hypocrisy you gaslight everyone by saying "you're just not being a good sport and know how to show common decency."
Do you want to know why I respect colonelmarik in all of this even though I absolutely disagree with him and despise his position? He at least is brave enough to say what he actually wants and isn't trying to hide behind "show some common decency and sportsmanship" where as you are. You've expected everyone else to be responsible for YOUR fun and YOUR feeling like you participated while taking no responsibility for it yourself. In other words you get to fly around and use whatever you want, use whatever build you want, but I have to play with stripped down husks and cater to YOUR playstyle. Get out of here with that garbage.
You say I should practice decency and sportsmanship and use a lesser build for people, go without keybinds and the like so others can "have a chance to play", but won't show me that same decency and sportsmanship by doing everything you can on your end at the same time so you can have a chance to play. If you won't do anything to fix your problem, why are you expecting me to take responsibility for it?
Has it occurred to you that the player you are randomly teamed with might be a new player trying out the content for the first time? You came down from your Elite level into a Normal event TFO, vaped the entire map, removing all chance for them to participate, and want to blame that new player for it, complain to and berate that new player that they have "have not done enough" to "git gud"? That is the impression you want a new player to have of the community? Has it ever occurred to you that the player you are randomly teamed with in that Normal TFO you stepped down into may have some kind of physical infirmity that prevents them from playing at higher difficulties? You honestly want to berate and belittle that player to "git gud" and "do everything they can to improve" just to keep up with you? Better yet, wanting to claim that due to them physically not being able to play at your level due to their infirmity is in some way being disrespectful to you? Really?? That is the hill you want to die on? You have lost your sense of sportsmanship, comradery with and respect for your fellow players.
I'm just going to say it dude, stop making excuses because that's all you're doing is making excuses.
The lowest DPS guy in my fleet is at 90k, in his 50s and has schizophrenia along with PTSD and other mental issues from his past jobs. He also does not have the hand-eye coordination or speed some of us "young bucks" do as he would call people like me. If he can figure out how to participate and change his builds around with all of that going on, you who do not have those issues but refuse to change have ZERO excuse. And quite frankly, I find it infuriating that you're now trying to hide behind the "do it for the disabled people" card. You know what happens when this guy in our friend group comes up against something that he physically can't do? He dips out and tells us to keep going instead of expecting us to walk on eggshells around him. I'm sorry for people that have legitimate disabilities and in an ideal world things like that wouldn't exist and everyone would be healthy and have no infirmities of any kind, but we don't live in that ideal world. I'm all for helping people with disabilities compete on an equal level with people who don't, but not at the cost of them being given advantages over the non-disabled people. Examples being modes for colorblind people so they can still play with everyone else without having to redesign the entire game around them.
The only people I have taken issue with are people who say they're experiencing an issue, yet have refused to change anything on their end to do something about it while simultaneously expecting me to reinvent myself to cater to them. Sorry that's not happening, get over it and move on. If you're going to make demands of me...oops requests I mean... so you can feel like you've participated enough, then I also get to make requests of you at the same time. You do not get to have it both ways like you're trying to do. Player A is allowed to have fun. If Player A is going to make requests of Player B, then Player B also gets to make requests of Player A. If Player A refuses to do anything to help himself, why is that Player B's problem?
With all due respect and sad as it is to say, many of the things you have written here and said to others in this thread and the contempt you have shown them is truly appalling. It pains me to say, in my opinion you should not have the privilege of being a moderator for or representative of any community that you show such contempt, such disdain, such disrespect and such vitriol toward. I feel sorry for you. I really do.
Green text next to my name doesn't remove my right to voice my thoughts and opinions as a player. I am entitled to my thoughts and opinions just as you are. If you don't like what I have to say or you disagree, then you're free to dislike it and disagree. You disliking it doesn't make me magically wrong and you magically right. You talk about respect show none.
I will respectfully ask you again, please learn to read.
I'm going to say this once, drop the attitude with suggesting people who disagree with you can't read. I've let it slide a few times, but that stops now. You talk about respecting people, yet disrespect me by calling me illiterate.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
I can see I'm wasting my energy here - pottsey doesn't see what I'm saying, while DB willfully rejects the idea that respect toward other players might have to flow both ways.
No he see's what you're saying, he just disagrees from the looks of it. Disagreement doesn't mean he doesn't see it.
As for me rejecting the idea of respect working both ways, never once have I said otherwise. However I have to ask, where is the respect for people like myself?
People talk about how folks like myself should "show decency" to other people and use lesser builds and hold back so others can participate, yet won't show me respect enough to do everything they can on their end simultaneously so they can participate. They want everyone else to change for them and their fun, while stomping all over the fun of those other people. They want me to use a lesser build so they can participate and get there in time, but won't even put on a free mobility power or use a free battery for me. If they won't use that mobility power or free battery for me, why should I use a lesser build for them? If they get to make "requests" of me I get to make requests of them, that is equality.
I've also not suggested anything I wouldn't hold myself to.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
One could say that Normal and Advanced players pay respect to Elite players by staying out of Elite content, because they know they're not ready for it. 🤷♀️
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator and Resident She-Wolf
Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
People talk about how folks like myself should "show decency" to other people...
Yes, you should.
... and use lesser builds and hold back so others can participate, yet won't show me respect enough to do everything they can on their end simultaneously so they can participate.
At this point, I get the impression you're just wilfully misconstruing everyone else's argument. No one is asking you to 'use lesser builds and hold back so others can participate.' That is all a strawman. When you descent from your high Elites, though, and enter a Normal or Advanced queue, then most certainly yes, you should "show decency" to other people.
You're like that 6th Grader, being allowed to participate in a contest made for 2nd Graders -- because the teacher thought you'd be nice and restrain yourself. Boy, was she wrong, wasn't she?! It's monumentally sad this has to be explained to you even.
They want everyone else to change for them and their fun, while stomping all over the fun of those other people.
Utter non-sense. No one gives a flying TRIBBLE (self-censored) what you do in your Elites. No one clearly not at that level tries to even enter those; and when they do, they soon enough give up on Elites, when they realize they chew off a bit more than they could handle.
This is actually the same reason I don't enter Normals: it's simply lame trying to get one's jollies off stomping on either newbies, or people who can't afford the same gear as me. If you want to impress someone, impress your peers!
why should I use a lesser build for them? If they get to make "requests" of me I get to make requests of them, that is equality.
No, equality is you playing at your own level. Or showing common courtesy restraint when playing at lower levels.
Is it "micromanaging" to ask you to keep your Elite stuff up in the Elite TFOs, instead of coming into Normal queues just so you can feel like a god amongst mere mortals?
Meanwhile, the only suggestions you've given me (or anyone else, for that matter) is how to micromanage our own experiences to make them more like yours. Maybe I don't want to strive to be the very best, like no one ever was. Maybe I just want to play a nice relaxing game.
Oh, and I just went and read the thread about how to get Deuterium Surplus. So, to meet your standards on any toon I want to run a Normal TFO with, I need to get to level 65, then complete the Specters arc, then go run a patrol in the Alhambra system, then have my Engineering to at least 5 and have whatever raw materials are needed to make the batteries, and then I have to craft as many of the batteries as I might happen to need. On each toon.
Dude, if I wanted another job, I'd go get one that paid me actual cash money.
If you have having problems keeping up with players and getting to location before the NPC is blown up there are other solutions like a Prevailing Innervated Engine which triggers 350% flight speed and turn rate on bridge officer powers and there are different engine types for different powers. Along with all other combos likes doffs and traits that interact. Deuterium Surplus is just one option.
In regards to "micromanaging" Going into normal is not just so we can feel like gods among mere mortals. This is an insult that keeps getting thrown at us and it’s not fair or true. I am sure there is a very tiny fraction of people who do that, possible the Elitest DPSers but those are rare and don’t represent the rest of us.
As for scaling our self-back yes, it is micromanaging and it can be very difficult to do. When I was gathering the data, I found it massively harder than I expected to stay at sub 50k taking a lot of concentration. It was that hard and took that much effort it was more like work and zapped all the fun out the game. Not only was it hard but I didn’t even manage it perfectly and slipped up going back to high DPS.
Along with being hard to pull off I don’t even think the majority of the other players was bothered about the high DPS. I am not even convinced there is a real problem outside of some rare outliner cases.
Take a look at Valreah graph where he was saying high DPSers are causing problems in the TFO run and forcing the other players to change there game style. Looking into the data that was not the case the high DPSer had no negative impact on the group, there was no evidence of forcing of play styles, no evidence of the casuals dropping in performance, no evidence the casuals couldn’t take part. Yet the high DPSers was being blamed for effectively doing the same thing the causals where doing.
As a high DPSers we are allowed to have a relaxing game as well. Micromanaging our self down is not relaxing or fun.
“Repeating this same mantra yet again seals it. You simply do not understand simple human concepts like good sportsmanship and common decency. That much is crystal clear.”
He does understand, what you don’t seem to understand is you are going against good sportsmanship and common decency from our point of view. Take that graph you posted you are saying the top DPS player should change his setup, stop having fun and going against good sportsmanship and common decency by changing their core build and playstyle to suit your own personal needs against his own needs all for what to us appears to be an arbitrary reason on your behalf. An arbitrary reason that doesn’t even seem to be correct as the data is not showing what you describe as happening.
In which case if it’s not happening then you are making a player change his playstyle over no real reason. What’s worse is the other teammate might not even have a problem and if that’s the case the top DPSers is accommodating you personally. That is not good sportsmanship or common decency.
Plus why are you so insistent the top DPSers has to accommodate you by not vaporising everything. But the 4 causal players are allowed to keep vaporising everything just the same way? It’s a double standard. Your own graph seems to show the top DPSers was not stopping the other 4 causals from taking part, not stopped them playing and not lowered there DPS and not made them change there playstyle. So I don’t even know what your problem is anymore. You seem to be just picking on top DPSers as you are stuck in a thought pattern. I wouldn’t be surprised at this point if you ran a Red Alert see everything get vaporised then blame the top DPSers even if there was none in the group and it was all done by the everyday casual players. That is how it feels at the moment.
“You came down from your Elite level into a Normal event TFO, vaped the entire map,”
As I showed the majority of the time that happens the map is vaped it is not the Elite player going into normal. Yet you seem dead locked on focusing on the Elite player being at fault. What about the majority of the every day players who are vaping the entire map? Why are they allowed to do that but the person you see as the Elite player cannot? If the casuals are not allowed to do that then why are you focused on the Elite player instead of saying all players vaping the map. Elite players are a minority there are barely any of us compared to causals. High DPSers are even more rare then Elite players.
Your own graph showed that the high DPSer downgrading to a lower end map did not impact what so ever the team in a negative way, nor did they remove the chance for the everyday player to participate. My own graph showed the same that when I bumped up my DPS the player near me did not get pushed down but raised up. Another player in this thread said the same they noticed when every they are near top high DPSers their own performance gets better and the best runs they had was with high DPSers being in the group. The experience seems to be the opposite to what you are saying. The high DPSer is not forcing the casual to not take part but often (not always) helping them take part more.
Now I admit there are some extremely rare outliner cases that do cause problems. But we are not talking about those. We are talking about the everyday runs. Not the once in a blue moon event. You seem to feel like it’s a problem but when we look at the data the problem is no there. Just look at your graph.
As for “berate that new player that they have "have not done enough" to "git gud"? “ I do not agree with berating but the data we have so far the only people to not participate did not because they did not do enough and did not get good enough to a basic standard. That has nothing to do with a high DPSers being in the team. Now those players don’t deserve to be berated but we also shouldn’t be blaming the high DPSer because the DPSer was not the reason the player got hit with an AFK in the data I gathered.
“The data any of us have shown in this thread is less than a mere drop of a drop of a drop of a drop of water. None of us can claim that its contents are representative of the entire ocean. Not even remotely close.”
We can extrapolate the data by looking at multiple sample points over multiple days, from multiple runs and if you post your data which I asked but you refused to post the DMG graph then we have data from multiple people as well further expanding the data points. If they all match or show a general pattern which they seem to be the case so far. Then even if the data is incomplete, we can build a reasonable picture up of what I happening.
It doesn’t matter if it’s not a perfect capture of all the data. The fact that what I am talking about shows up as often as it does proves what I was saying. Also, if your post the data I asked for it proves at least in that graph you posted that the high DPS is not doing what you say they are doing. They are not negatively impacting the players at least in that run. Even though you blamed them in that run. Have you even looked at what I have asked and checked if I was right?
Look at it from our point of view. We have multiple data samples going against what you are saying. So far zero samples of data showing what you are talking about even your own data is not showing what you are saying. Yet you seem to want to destroy high DPSers builds, destroy high DPSers fun, ruin their play style all so you can feel better over a problem I am not convinced is even real or happening outside of some extremely rare outliner cases.
If there was some wide spread evidence of a problem, I would do what I could to not be part of the problem. Based on the data so far, I am confident that the majority of players in random groups have no problems from the odd high DPSers being in the group in general content, excluding some extremely rare outliner cases.
Comments
I would have no issues with Elite Random TFO's I would love it or even put a level in between advanced and elite. Also I'm not a huge DPS person but I do have a few chars which can pack a punch not quiet like those DPS Channel guys but enough to consider Advanced TFO's to easy. But I'm a a rewardxxxx so I love my extra chest of marks. Really would love to higher difficulties for randoms.
See, I've never seen anyone blame Dark, or anyone else, for their builds. Nobody ever does that.
Except that's not what's happening. Nobody is asking Player group A to change their setup, and accommodate everyone else. Nary a one. Instead, in comes Elite Player group B, stomping on Advanced Player group A, and demanding the latter change their builds, subsidiarily shaming them for not doing so. THAT is what people take exception to! I don't care how Dark fares in his Elites. I let him be. But then don't enter 'my' Advanced TFO, and tell the ppl there they stink and need to 'git gud.' Those players are already good for the level they play at.
That is a bit of a double-edged sword. If a player constantly fails at their level, then are they really at that level? Like if I were to go into an Elite, and fail miserably, then I'm simply not an Elite player. Waxing philosophical here for a moment, in essence, everyone is always 'good enough' at their own level. Consequently, I have yet to see anyone blame high DPS players, except when said Elite players enter a lower level, clearly too easy for them, and start vaping the map. Does this occur a lot? Not in my runs, really; but there are, even at Advanced, players who are likely close to being just Regular players, and those who approach Elite level (and thus will be considered to be Elite players, by some). Edge-cases like this will always exist.
^^ THIS is the right mindset. It's never been about a right to be somewhere, but simply about common decency and good sportsmanship.
I see no evidence in that chart of the high DPS player causing any problems for the low DPS players. Furthermore, if I am reading that right all 4 causal players are in the normal range for 4 causals players. It’s hard to tell from that chart scale but I am sure you can confirm the 4 causals player are doing in the range of 15k to 50k+ which is the level you would expect them to do without the high DPS player. Possibly in the range of 15k to 100k for the green player. Can you confirm that is the case?
Can you please now switch to DMG Chart so we can see how many of those 4 causals every day players at the bottom are doing in a range of 100k to 300k+ spike DPS and instant killing NPC’s? If all 5 players as I expect is the case are doing enough damage to instant vaporising NPC’s then even if we remove that top end DPSers we are still in the case of 4 everyday causal players instant vaporising NPC’s. Plus if the 4 causal players are able to do spike DPS in the range of 100k+ then the high DPSers clearly isn't wiping out everything leaving nothing for the causal players.
If that is the case, I really don’t see a problem with the chart and I see no negative impact from the high DPS player in this case and what that high DPSers is being blamed for is what the 4 causal players are still doing.
In some cases but my main point is the causal everyday players are doing the majority of the vaporising NPC’s and then the high end DPSers which in most cases are having little impact on the causal players are being blamed. I fully believe if we had a magic wand and removed the high end DPSers from the game very little would change in the average run. Players would still find the NPC’s are being vaporising because its not the high end DPSers doing the bulk of this. They are just being blamed.
No, I understand. What I am saying is they are falling behind the normal circumstances and normal causal every day players. They are mistaking the normal players as DPS players. Then instead of matching the normal players they are blaming the DPS players and asking the DPS player to step down. When the problem isn’t the DPS players it’s the causal every day players instant vaporising the majority of NPC’s.
I have and I have yet to see any explanation that I find reasonable and acceptable.
No its not there sandbox. Its our sandbox. I have as much right to that sandbox as them. There is nothing stopping them changing 1 engine on their setup and zerging around as much as me. They have no more right to ask me to change my setup then I have to ask them to change their setup. If the mission is not failing then everyone has the right to play how ever they want to.
Its not there play area just for them. It’s like when I play a dreadnought carrier and a Escort zips around the map out pacing me. I have no right to ask that Escort to slow down as its there sandbox as well.
You say I am stuck in my way or my thought process but it sounds like you are the one that is stuck. You are the one that refuses to acknowledge the data that goes against your position. First you didn't want to acknowledge my data, now you don't see to want to acknowledge you own data. I am not asking for opinion, I am trying to look at hard facts.
Your own data seems to suggest the high DPS player is not forcing the causal every day player into a different playstyle. So why are we still blaming the high DPS player. You say its a simple concept but the data doesn't back up what you are saying. I am happy for you to prove me wrong and post the chart I asked for. If it shows differently from from I describe I will hold my hands up and say I got that wrong. But if it shows what I expect don't you think you should acknowledge perhaps you made a mistake and the high DPSers is not having the impact you thought and the causals are vaporising on mass despite the high DPSers being present. Its an important piece of data for this discussion.
I am not trying to turn this into the average every day player being the sole source of the problem. I didn't say sole source, I said majority and I said there are outliner cases where high DPSers cause problems but it is very, very rare. From my point of view the majority of every day players are instant vaporising NPCs on mass on normal and this instant vaporising NPCs is being mistaken as being done by high DPS players and then high DPS players are being blamed.
For me its not about being right or wrong its about what the evidence and data shows. It seems to me you don't like what the data is showing.
"Hopefully it will sink in this time The issue is not about rights. It is about common courtesy and decency toward your fellow player. "
Which goes both ways which is the bit you seem to struggle with. You seem to not care about showing common courtesy and decency to the high DPSers and you want to stomp on there fun so you can have your own fun and I am not even sure they are causing the problems you are blaming them for outside of some rare instances.
You accuse me of applying arbitrary standards and you come at me with this? I legitimately had to double take reading that. I will give you credit on one thing, you're the first that's actually answered the question of how long people should wait.
Now getting into this. Let's suppose for sake of discussion I were to do these 4 things on my end so you have a better chance to participate. What are you going to do on your end at the same time so you have the greatest chance to participate? For example, are you going to make sure you have more than one movement power on your ship? Are you going to use Deuterium Surplus? Are you going to make sure your equipment is at least mk xii very rare? Are you going to make sure your weapons are on autofire? So far I'm only seeing what you think others should do on their end, while simultaneously changing nothing yourself. So if you're going to expect me to do the 4 things above as hypotheticals, what do you plan to do on your end at the same time?
Going through the list one by one.
-10 second wait: Again you're the first to actually try to quantify a wait time to have a debate so you get credit for this. This isn't the most unreasonable request I've hard, but even then begs another question. If I give you the 10 seconds to get to the target and start fighting and you're not there, do I get to roll in and start playing or do you expect me to wait longer? This will make little difference in the long run but this one I will grant for the moment since you were willing to at least quantify it.
-Keybinds: So I'm going to respectfully ask, how have you been a programmer for 30 years as you claim but don't understand the convenience of having everything in one place? If you think keybinds are an issue then you'll think I'm a monster when I tell you that I'm using a Razer Naga mouse with the 12 buttons on the side, a Logitech G910 keyboard with 9 programmable buttons and 3 profiles for said buttons, with a Logitech G13 gamepad containing 22 programmable buttons along with a thumb joystick and 2 buttons next to it and 3 profiles for the G13. Overall I have the potential for around 105 customizable keys if you count each of the Logitech items as a separate key and the ones on the Naga. Now I say that to bring this up, keybinds can have an effect on DPS sure, but they're not going to have the kind of effect you're hoping for in this instance. Originally I never planned for the G13 but I jacked my wrist up for awhile in an airsoft match some years back. Should my wrist ever bug me I can go to the G13 since it has a wrist wrest. Point being dude, there are many reasons for keybinds. I wouldn't force others to change their keybinds to something they're uncomfortable with, nor am I changing mine.
-Deuterium Surplus: This is a device everyone in this game can get. Complete the Spectres Arc in the Available missions area, Do the Alhena System Patrol and the Contract mission from there, get your engineering crafting to level 5 and there you go. For me Deuterium Surplus is simply a bonus on top of what I already have in the form of boffs. This is not going to effect my DPS how you want it to as I can still get to where I'm going. I suppose however you'll be allowed to use Deuterium though right?
-teammate engaged to a target: this is so vague that it's not even funny. Let's suppose we're in a run of Khitomer Vortex and I see that the guy on my side is struggling with the probes and will not be able to stop them before they get to the gate, and thus cost us the optional (normal/advanced), am I supposed to just eat the optional fail or do I get to actually nuke the probes? Also if the map doesn't permit me to step back and let the teammate handle it, what do you propose I do? Am I supposed to sit on my hands and pretend nothing is going on? Am I supposed to just dry fire my weapons and pray it dies in time?
You say there are more "very simple things you can do" so what are some of these others? Because so far what I'm seeing are simply arbitrary nit picks you're using while expecting people to micromanage themselves purely so you can have fun. The closest to reasonable you've had is asking for the 10 seconds and the only one so far I would actually consider doing. Also on this point, I look forward to seeing what you plan to at the same time I would be doing these hypotheticals.
I'm reading what people are writing, and while there are a few who are being reasonable in their approach, such as yourself, there are others who are not.
Now I agree the Nascar driver shouldn't be taking a race vehicle onto the interstate, but that's not what we're talking about here at all. This entire thread started with someone saying they found issue with people coming into TFOs and nuking things before they had a chance to participate and arguing there should be DPS limits, and some arguing those they labeled elites should stay in elite. I brought up the elite examples to show two things, first one being that it goes both ways. If they're going to say folks like myself should stay in elite then they should be made to stay out of advanced and elite if they're not ready for them. Second being if they're going to say I should have to "tone it down" then I get to demand they tone it up. Again it goes both ways. If they really want to make sure everyone is on equal footing and has a chance to participate, then institute the Gear Check, Performance Check and Dungeon Journal. It will ensure those looking to get into higher tier content are ready for said content on equal footing with everyone else seeking to break into the content. If you can pass the minimum checks, you will pass the content and anything beyond the minimums is crazy.
I also brought up the DPS examples to show that what people think they're seeing isn't actually what they're seeing. They think they're seeing uber DPS in their normal modes, but what they're actually seeing is the combined spike damage of their team. If you have 4 people averaging 30k that all spike up to 90k from hitting their powers, that's a combined spike DPS of 360k which will melt things in normal modes. If you don't get there in a few seconds, nothing will survive. Now finally on this point, certain people have advocated that there is too much DPS and that there should be limits, and people like myself should have to tone it down if playing on something less than elite either by the devs toning everyone down, or as a "courtesy". In other words they expect me to change to suit their fun, yet don't want to change anything of their own so they can have a better chance at having fun because they "like where they're at". Okay if someone likes where they're at then fine, you don't have to change anything, but you also don't get to whine when there are natural consequences for the result of that decision.
Lastly I'm essentially being told that I need to stick to elite only, and if I do want to play on something less than elite that I need to do this, that, and another thing to micromanage myself so I'm not "nuking the map before others can participate", which usually means running a stripped down naked version of everything by the time it's said and done. In other words, nerf yourself for me or don't come into the content. In other words they are aloud to have their fun without having to change anything, but somehow I'm expected to change and micromanage everything to walk on eggshells around them. Okay if I'm expected to walk on eggshells around them and make changes so they can have a chance to participate, they're going to also make some changes so they can have a better chance to participate. It goes both ways but certain people want it all to be on my side while they don't change a thing, and straight up that is not happening.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
I'd also like to take a bit of time to thank BMR for her Service to our country. I and my family really appreciate those who keep this country safe. My own father is a vet too, and he's still going at 88.
Now, back to your regularly scheduled back and forth
Both are reasonable, I also think DPSers can meet up and do content together, like a weekly thing, you know, keep in touch and stuff,
I know how to keep it civil,
Awww... That is so sweet. 🥰 Thank you for your support. 😊
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
Moderation Problems/Issues? Please contact the Community Manager
Terms of Service / Community Rules and Policies / FCT
Facebook / Twitter / Twitch
THIS. ALL OF THIS. PREACH BROTHER. This is exactly my problem with what people are advocating. If people want to say they think there is too much DPS in game, fine they're entitled to that opinion. For that matter I've even looked at a few damage charts and thought to myself "what would I ever do with that", and is one of the reasons I choose not to go higher than I am on my tank. At the same time I'm not asking for those people with the higher DPS to be nerfed. People are allowed to think whatever they want, and are allowed to voice their opinions.
My issue is when people say they think the DPS is too high and they're having trouble participating as a result, and asking for changes to be made by the devs, or advocating people like myself who would fall under that uber DPS by their definition should have to nerf ourselves and micromanage ourselves so they are able to feel like they're participating more, but they don't want to do anything to help themselves because they "like where they're at." In other words as you said, Player A (me) is being asked to change my setup to accommodate Player B, because he doesn't feel like he's getting to play as much. Player B expects me to change my setup for him, but doesn't want to change anything on his own setup to allow himself a greater chance to compete. Thus wanting me to cater exclusively to them and be responsible for their fun, and I'm not doing that. Why should I have to accommodate them when they're not willing to accommodate me and make some changes themselves? That's why I suggested the Gear Check, Performance Check and Dungeon Journal. People want to say they're having a hard time competing. Okay let's get some systems in there to make sure they have sufficient stats and knowledge so that they are able to do exactly that. If they can complete it in the check maps, they will 99% be able to beat it on the actual TFO maps. If they can't complete it in the check map, they won't be able to complete the actual TFO. Thus no one has any excuses after that.
Someone says they like where they're at and don't want to change anything, okay fine then don't change anything. But don't whine that other people won't let you participate when you chose to dig your heels in and keep doing the same thing over and over expecting different results. If you're not willing to change to help yourself, you don't get to demand that I change something of mine to help you either. If they're not willing to take steps to fix their own problems, why are they expecting me to fix it for them?
No potsey understands it perfectly from where I'm sitting, you're just choosing to move the goal posts while refusing to provide data you say you have. First you claimed that high DPSers coming into lower difficulty was a problem, yet now in the line in bold you say that's not the issue. So what is the issue then, because I don't think you know what you're advocating anymore. Either it's the so called elites coming in and vaping everything or it's not, yet now you're wanting to add stipulations to it and move the goal post. Now you've opened it up so anyone can be considered an uber DPS with your new player analogy even though for the playerbase they're average.
You're right about one thing, we don't have 100% of the data as we're not able to monitor the thousands of runs that happen daily in game. I will give you that much. At the same time you don't need to have 100% of the data either to make educated inferences based on what we have. If for example I'm looking through a stack of paintings and I see the top half of a canvas sticking out and a woman covering her top with her hands and only flesh tones with no visible signs of clothing, without the ability to see the other half of the canvas it's not exactly unreasonable to assume the painting is of a naked model. Can I prove that's what it is without seeing the other half of the painting, no I can't, but based on preponderance of evidence, what conclusion do you expect me to draw?
The evidence potsey has presented so far shows that what people are seeing isn't actually uber DPS, but the combined might of their team. Per the example I gave previously, if you have 4 people in a team at 30k DPS each, which is middle of player average, that is a combined DPS of 120k. If those people hit all of their powers and spike up to 90k, that's a new combined spike DPS of 360k. I shouldn't need to tell you that things will melt super fast on normal mode under that kind of pressure due to lack of HP alone without even having to take debuffs and such into account. If a regular joe goes in and can't get there in time, he's not seeing an uber DPSer, but the illusion of one.
If you're going to reject Potsey's evidence, then logically we must also reject your evidence which takes us right back to square one. If you want to say the problem is uber DPS, you're entitled to that opinion. But without evidence it's just that, your opinion, nothing more nothing less. You want to say it's uber DPSers that are the problem, SHOW ME THE EVIDENCE. Because so far potsey has provided far more evidence, and based on the evidence we do have, people are getting to play, and the ones nuking things aren't the uber DPS, but the average players like yourself. So I guess that means you need to get nerfed too.
If you want to say it's not healthy for the game and look at it from a balance perspective, that's a completely different ballgame and discussion to saying "I think there is too much DPS and the devs should do something about it because I/someone else can't participate because things die too fast" and advocating changes based on the subjectiveness of what one person considers fun.
I have to ask though. If you think the problem is high end DPS, have you tried to parse any of the maps you've been in to see what is actually going on, or are you just assuming that because it died fast there must be an uber DPS in the run? Do you have actual evidence and logs we can look at? If you do I would love to see them. Because the logs will tell the full story of what's actually going on. Otherwise without evidence it comes off as you demanding/advocating others be nerfed based on your personal preferences of what you find to be fun. In other words you are allowed to have fun at the lower end of the DPS spectrum, but people like myself on the opposite end should be punished and cater to you.
As to seeing a flatter curve, this gets into some murky territory because then you have to answer what you think the maximum should be. In fact I'm going to ask you, if I were to hand you a magic wand like you stole a wand from Cosmo or Wanda of the Fairly Oddparents, what would you say the top absolute max DPS should be? Clearly you think what's going on right now is too much and you have some kind of standard in mind, so I'm asking you to quantify that standard. Give us a number to work with? We talking 1m DPS as the max? 500k? 250k? what are we talking?
Flattening the DPS curve isn't going to solve your problems, all you're doing is changing the percentages without ever addressing why you're seeing those problems to start with. If you have a mob with 1m health, and someone with 100k DPS, it will take 10 seconds to drop that mob. You could lower that DPS to say 10k, but if you don't change the mob health you've made that person's investment into that build 10x worse off than it was before. If you change the mob health to 100k and the DPS to 10k, you're not changing anything as the percentages are still the same.
As for changing your build, if you like where you're at and don't want to change, that's fine. However any and all potential issues will remain as they are because you've chosen not to change. Such as you not being able to get there in time to participate and you're no better off than you were before. Which begs the question that I have to ask, if you're not willing to change your build to give yourself the greatest chance to participate, why should I be asked to change so you can participate?
Because to be blunt, I don't buy the "courtesy" argument when folks are asking me to change for them, but won't change anything for me. Where is my courtesy in them also making sure they have done everything possible on their end while asking me to make changes? So far I've seen none of that from certain people in here.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
Meanwhile, the only suggestions you've given me (or anyone else, for that matter) is how to micromanage our own experiences to make them more like yours. Maybe I don't want to strive to be the very best, like no one ever was. Maybe I just want to play a nice relaxing game.
Oh, and I just went and read the thread about how to get Deuterium Surplus. So, to meet your standards on any toon I want to run a Normal TFO with, I need to get to level 65, then complete the Specters arc, then go run a patrol in the Alhambra system, then have my Engineering to at least 5 and have whatever raw materials are needed to make the batteries, and then I have to craft as many of the batteries as I might happen to need. On each toon.
Dude, if I wanted another job, I'd go get one that paid me actual cash money.
One had an older Fleet Excelsior, one had one of the Oddy's. Both were playing regularly about 3 to 4 years ago, both were what people would class as "Whales" for the time, both had spent hundreds of £'s in the game.
Both lasted about 9 hours and quit again.
While certain people here argue over semantics, STO is unable to keep a hold of former whale players, and therefore losing out in more and more potential revenue. That's 6 former players I've tried to get back into the game and 6 former player who lasted less than a day and it was down to two things, having TFO maps wiped out infront of them, and that same thing happening over and over again to the point they said said "nope...seeya" and left.
For the second player the final straw for her was on a NORMAL...yes...NORMAL Infected Conduit. I figured that none of the attack pattern credit card folks would show up down in the lower levels. I was wrong. One tiny little ship essentially wiped out half the map in seconds. She left after we got out of that TFO.
Now with regards to the micromanaging stuff. In elite I am managing things for my own fun of my own accord. Nothing made me go in there to that elite run, I chose to go in there. The difference here is you are advocating that I should have to micromanage things to suite YOUR fun while changing nothing on your end.
If you on one end are going to advocate that I should have to micromanage what I do on my side so others can feel like they've participated enough, likewise I am going to also demand they do everything in their power on their end to make sure they can participate as well. To say that I should have to essentially nerf myself and micromanage myself walking on eggshells for the fun of another, while simultaneously that guy gets to do anything he wants with no changes is pure hypocrisy and I'm not doing that. Dude can fire himself out a torpedo tube if he doesn't like it.
If Player A expects Player B to make changes so they can feel like they've participated enough, Player B also gets to demand Player A make changes so they have done everything they can to participate. If you are not willing to even try to change anything on your end to alleviate a problem you say you're having, why on earth should I have to change what I'm doing to help you when you won't even help yourself? If you say you're having a problem participating but won't even change one thing to try to help yourself, then you must not care as much as you want us to believe or you would do something about it.
If you don't want to change anything then don't. I can't make you change anything, but you need to be aware if you keep doing the same thing over and over again without being willing to change at all, then you will keep experiencing the same problems again and again and again. I am not responsible for your subjective feeling of having not participated enough.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
Jon, players who wouldn't usually play normal difficulty queues do so during events in order to complete the events for the prize. If it feels like "elite stuff" is being done in normal queues I apologize. This is not the intent. I do take steps to minimize monopolization of specific queues by not always using emergency power to weapons, or attack pattern beta, or a firing mode.
Many players who don't usually play normal difficulty queues also like to play a nice relaxing game.
Deuterium Surplus is a wee bit over rated in my opinion and really only comes in handy for "full mobility" runs of Infected Space. But, it is something that the game has made available so there will be players who keep it handy.
Using an Emergency Conn Hologram is all that's needed to get around a little bit quicker. I think one reason the ECH gets used a lot is that it's so easy to get from the Phoenix store. The ECH to me isn't really about meeting anyone's standards.. it just comes in handy.
Many of the things often mentioned aren't really "elite stuff" but just ways to get around things in the game such as being stuck in red alert so often. Even things like keybinds are often used to make things easier on "not quite as youthful as they used to be" fingers and as a side benefit seem to make gameplay more relaxing and pleasant.
Yes, game play in 2023 isn't quite the same as some of the Star Trek battles we watched on TV in the 1960's.
The only thing that I see here that's abundantly clear Val is you not knowing nearly as much as you pretend to while displaying a self-righteous arrogance and entitlement that if someone disagrees with you that they magically don't understand the problem and only you do. You've more than displayed by your actions that you believe none can disagree with you for any valid reason as in your mind they either need to "learn to read" or "don't understand the problem" as you make excuse after excuse as to why you can't do this that or the other thing, and everyone else should have to play around you and cater to you while you give them nothing in return. Now do you want me to keep going on this or do you want to have an actual discussion?
What's clear is that you throw around words like decency and sportsmanship but do not practice what you preach at all. You sit here and demand people like myself should have to use lesser builds and nerf ourselves, go without keybinds and all this junk so YOU can have fun and YOU can feel like you participated, while hiding behind the "be a good sport and show some common decency to your team" mantra and refusing to change nothing on your end to help yourself. In other words I have to change for you but you don't have to change anything for me. Then when people like myself call you on your hypocrisy you gaslight everyone by saying "you're just not being a good sport and know how to show common decency."
Do you want to know why I respect colonelmarik in all of this even though I absolutely disagree with him and despise his position? He at least is brave enough to say what he actually wants and isn't trying to hide behind "show some common decency and sportsmanship" where as you are. You've expected everyone else to be responsible for YOUR fun and YOUR feeling like you participated while taking no responsibility for it yourself. In other words you get to fly around and use whatever you want, use whatever build you want, but I have to play with stripped down husks and cater to YOUR playstyle. Get out of here with that garbage.
You say I should practice decency and sportsmanship and use a lesser build for people, go without keybinds and the like so others can "have a chance to play", but won't show me that same decency and sportsmanship by doing everything you can on your end at the same time so you can have a chance to play. If you won't do anything to fix your problem, why are you expecting me to take responsibility for it?
I'm just going to say it dude, stop making excuses because that's all you're doing is making excuses.
The lowest DPS guy in my fleet is at 90k, in his 50s and has schizophrenia along with PTSD and other mental issues from his past jobs. He also does not have the hand-eye coordination or speed some of us "young bucks" do as he would call people like me. If he can figure out how to participate and change his builds around with all of that going on, you who do not have those issues but refuse to change have ZERO excuse. And quite frankly, I find it infuriating that you're now trying to hide behind the "do it for the disabled people" card. You know what happens when this guy in our friend group comes up against something that he physically can't do? He dips out and tells us to keep going instead of expecting us to walk on eggshells around him. I'm sorry for people that have legitimate disabilities and in an ideal world things like that wouldn't exist and everyone would be healthy and have no infirmities of any kind, but we don't live in that ideal world. I'm all for helping people with disabilities compete on an equal level with people who don't, but not at the cost of them being given advantages over the non-disabled people. Examples being modes for colorblind people so they can still play with everyone else without having to redesign the entire game around them.
The only people I have taken issue with are people who say they're experiencing an issue, yet have refused to change anything on their end to do something about it while simultaneously expecting me to reinvent myself to cater to them. Sorry that's not happening, get over it and move on. If you're going to make demands of me...oops requests I mean... so you can feel like you've participated enough, then I also get to make requests of you at the same time. You do not get to have it both ways like you're trying to do. Player A is allowed to have fun. If Player A is going to make requests of Player B, then Player B also gets to make requests of Player A. If Player A refuses to do anything to help himself, why is that Player B's problem?
Green text next to my name doesn't remove my right to voice my thoughts and opinions as a player. I am entitled to my thoughts and opinions just as you are. If you don't like what I have to say or you disagree, then you're free to dislike it and disagree. You disliking it doesn't make me magically wrong and you magically right. You talk about respect show none.
I'm going to say this once, drop the attitude with suggesting people who disagree with you can't read. I've let it slide a few times, but that stops now. You talk about respecting people, yet disrespect me by calling me illiterate.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
As for me rejecting the idea of respect working both ways, never once have I said otherwise. However I have to ask, where is the respect for people like myself?
People talk about how folks like myself should "show decency" to other people and use lesser builds and hold back so others can participate, yet won't show me respect enough to do everything they can on their end simultaneously so they can participate. They want everyone else to change for them and their fun, while stomping all over the fun of those other people. They want me to use a lesser build so they can participate and get there in time, but won't even put on a free mobility power or use a free battery for me. If they won't use that mobility power or free battery for me, why should I use a lesser build for them? If they get to make "requests" of me I get to make requests of them, that is equality.
I've also not suggested anything I wouldn't hold myself to.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
Moderation Problems/Issues? Please contact the Community Manager
Terms of Service / Community Rules and Policies / FCT
Facebook / Twitter / Twitch
Yes, you should.
At this point, I get the impression you're just wilfully misconstruing everyone else's argument. No one is asking you to 'use lesser builds and hold back so others can participate.' That is all a strawman. When you descent from your high Elites, though, and enter a Normal or Advanced queue, then most certainly yes, you should "show decency" to other people.
You're like that 6th Grader, being allowed to participate in a contest made for 2nd Graders -- because the teacher thought you'd be nice and restrain yourself. Boy, was she wrong, wasn't she?! It's monumentally sad this has to be explained to you even.
Utter non-sense. No one gives a flying TRIBBLE (self-censored) what you do in your Elites. No one clearly not at that level tries to even enter those; and when they do, they soon enough give up on Elites, when they realize they chew off a bit more than they could handle.
This is actually the same reason I don't enter Normals: it's simply lame trying to get one's jollies off stomping on either newbies, or people who can't afford the same gear as me. If you want to impress someone, impress your peers!
No, equality is you playing at your own level. Or showing common courtesy restraint when playing at lower levels.
In regards to "micromanaging" Going into normal is not just so we can feel like gods among mere mortals. This is an insult that keeps getting thrown at us and it’s not fair or true. I am sure there is a very tiny fraction of people who do that, possible the Elitest DPSers but those are rare and don’t represent the rest of us.
As for scaling our self-back yes, it is micromanaging and it can be very difficult to do. When I was gathering the data, I found it massively harder than I expected to stay at sub 50k taking a lot of concentration. It was that hard and took that much effort it was more like work and zapped all the fun out the game. Not only was it hard but I didn’t even manage it perfectly and slipped up going back to high DPS.
Along with being hard to pull off I don’t even think the majority of the other players was bothered about the high DPS. I am not even convinced there is a real problem outside of some rare outliner cases.
Take a look at Valreah graph where he was saying high DPSers are causing problems in the TFO run and forcing the other players to change there game style. Looking into the data that was not the case the high DPSer had no negative impact on the group, there was no evidence of forcing of play styles, no evidence of the casuals dropping in performance, no evidence the casuals couldn’t take part. Yet the high DPSers was being blamed for effectively doing the same thing the causals where doing.
As a high DPSers we are allowed to have a relaxing game as well. Micromanaging our self down is not relaxing or fun.
He does understand, what you don’t seem to understand is you are going against good sportsmanship and common decency from our point of view. Take that graph you posted you are saying the top DPS player should change his setup, stop having fun and going against good sportsmanship and common decency by changing their core build and playstyle to suit your own personal needs against his own needs all for what to us appears to be an arbitrary reason on your behalf. An arbitrary reason that doesn’t even seem to be correct as the data is not showing what you describe as happening.
In which case if it’s not happening then you are making a player change his playstyle over no real reason. What’s worse is the other teammate might not even have a problem and if that’s the case the top DPSers is accommodating you personally. That is not good sportsmanship or common decency.
Plus why are you so insistent the top DPSers has to accommodate you by not vaporising everything. But the 4 causal players are allowed to keep vaporising everything just the same way? It’s a double standard. Your own graph seems to show the top DPSers was not stopping the other 4 causals from taking part, not stopped them playing and not lowered there DPS and not made them change there playstyle. So I don’t even know what your problem is anymore. You seem to be just picking on top DPSers as you are stuck in a thought pattern. I wouldn’t be surprised at this point if you ran a Red Alert see everything get vaporised then blame the top DPSers even if there was none in the group and it was all done by the everyday casual players. That is how it feels at the moment.
As I showed the majority of the time that happens the map is vaped it is not the Elite player going into normal. Yet you seem dead locked on focusing on the Elite player being at fault. What about the majority of the every day players who are vaping the entire map? Why are they allowed to do that but the person you see as the Elite player cannot? If the casuals are not allowed to do that then why are you focused on the Elite player instead of saying all players vaping the map. Elite players are a minority there are barely any of us compared to causals. High DPSers are even more rare then Elite players.
Your own graph showed that the high DPSer downgrading to a lower end map did not impact what so ever the team in a negative way, nor did they remove the chance for the everyday player to participate. My own graph showed the same that when I bumped up my DPS the player near me did not get pushed down but raised up. Another player in this thread said the same they noticed when every they are near top high DPSers their own performance gets better and the best runs they had was with high DPSers being in the group. The experience seems to be the opposite to what you are saying. The high DPSer is not forcing the casual to not take part but often (not always) helping them take part more.
Now I admit there are some extremely rare outliner cases that do cause problems. But we are not talking about those. We are talking about the everyday runs. Not the once in a blue moon event. You seem to feel like it’s a problem but when we look at the data the problem is no there. Just look at your graph.
As for “berate that new player that they have "have not done enough" to "git gud"? “ I do not agree with berating but the data we have so far the only people to not participate did not because they did not do enough and did not get good enough to a basic standard. That has nothing to do with a high DPSers being in the team. Now those players don’t deserve to be berated but we also shouldn’t be blaming the high DPSer because the DPSer was not the reason the player got hit with an AFK in the data I gathered.
We can extrapolate the data by looking at multiple sample points over multiple days, from multiple runs and if you post your data which I asked but you refused to post the DMG graph then we have data from multiple people as well further expanding the data points. If they all match or show a general pattern which they seem to be the case so far. Then even if the data is incomplete, we can build a reasonable picture up of what I happening.
It doesn’t matter if it’s not a perfect capture of all the data. The fact that what I am talking about shows up as often as it does proves what I was saying. Also, if your post the data I asked for it proves at least in that graph you posted that the high DPS is not doing what you say they are doing. They are not negatively impacting the players at least in that run. Even though you blamed them in that run. Have you even looked at what I have asked and checked if I was right?
Look at it from our point of view. We have multiple data samples going against what you are saying. So far zero samples of data showing what you are talking about even your own data is not showing what you are saying. Yet you seem to want to destroy high DPSers builds, destroy high DPSers fun, ruin their play style all so you can feel better over a problem I am not convinced is even real or happening outside of some extremely rare outliner cases.
If there was some wide spread evidence of a problem, I would do what I could to not be part of the problem. Based on the data so far, I am confident that the majority of players in random groups have no problems from the odd high DPSers being in the group in general content, excluding some extremely rare outliner cases.