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My take on the missing Klingon War episodes
vegeta50024
Member Posts: 2,336 Arc User
I posted this on reddit too, but I figured it would warrant discussion here on the forums too.
So lately we had on last week’s Ten Forward weekly a question about whether or not people would be willing to have a season be devoted to bringing back the old Klingon War missions in lieu of doing new stories. It’s no secret that there are many people that would like to see these missions returned (myself included) especially since two of them have dialog that was done by the late Leonard Nimoy, as well as a resolution of how the Klingons restore their cranial ridges.
History of the removed episodes
Prior to removal of the eight Klingon War episodes, the arc had received a revamp back in 2014 which was primarily to update the quality & the pacing of the episodes, as they were launch era episodes. The revamp back then also saw them strip out a mission from the arc that was totally unrelated to the Klingon War (it was pretty much filler that wasn’t needed for the arc). The Klingon War arc also has the first appearance of Dr. Bashir, whom replaced a different NPC prior to Victory is Life.
In late fall 2017 with the introduction of Geordi LaForge into the game, the devs made the episodes “Hide and Seek” & “Stop the Signal” handed out by Geordi, where previously they had been done by Admiral Quinn. Both of these episodes had to do with the player searching for Undine while taking out Klingon listening posts. After this, the next time we as players get to deal anything in terms of the Undine is when we hit the Borg Advance arc.
The other arc they removed with these episodes is the introduction of B’Vat, the same guy we deal with in “Secret Orders” & “The Doomsday Device” whom just seems to disappear after that. Originally, his first introduction to us is in “The Kuvah’magh” which is also where we happen to meet Miral Paris as an adult. This particular episode set up an arc that resulted us having to enter the Guardian of Forever, chasing after B’Vat whom kidnapped Miral Paris & taking her to the past of 2270, where her DNA is ultimately used to cure the Klingons of the augment virus that resulted in them losing their cranial ridges.
Why I think the missions were removed
We know that in season 15 of STO aka Age of Discovery, the The Klingon War arc got gutted, removing more than half of the of the arc, saying that they planned to revamp these episodes & return them when they were finished. The goal was obviously to have them updated to make a better overall flow to the arc as well as to add in the cutscenes they have been working in with their animator. However, it’s been over 4 years since they had said they planned to update them. After Discovery aired two episodes featuring the Guardian of Forever during their 3rd season, which made the update of the episodes a bit of a higher priority, but this of course has also resulted in not much more of a move from them.
Here’s a rundown of the removed episodes
Now, I believe these episodes were all removed because they wanted to streamline many of them since many just had continuations from previous one, especially the final two of the arc. There’s other things I feel they should keep like the death of Worf’s son Alexander, which would be a nudge for players to maybe play a Klingon character so they can go through it for themselves.
How I think it'll be revamped
We know that when Cryptic did the Year of Klingon, they went and revamped “Second Star to the right, Straight on ‘til morning” & “Keep your Enemies Closer” into “Mars, Bringer of War” while they folded “The Gateway of Gre’thor” into “Afterlife” which is something they have done prior with many Cardassian missions to make them feel more cohesive than what they were.
Somtaakhar on reddit has said that when it comes to revamping these missions that some may get combined similarly to what they did for the Klingon faction missions since many lead into another mission. Below is what I’d see them doing:
Now, if they were taking suggestions on what players would like to see, I’d make the above suggestions, but I would add in one thing that some people might find to be a contraversal addition to the arc: J’Ula.
The reason why I’d add her in mostly has to do with B’Vat. According to the Path to 2409, B’Vat in 2389 was said to have eliminated all of the members of the House of Mo’Kai, which saw Martok dissolve the House. A story blog that came out a few years ago had it revealed to us that rather than being all wiped out, House Mo’Kai went into hiding & Adet’pa continued to update House Mo’Kai’s intelligence database & seeks her out.
However, despite STO giving us the arc which makes the Discovery character’s initial arc as an introduction to J’Ula, we don’t really see her until AFTER the Gamma Quadrant arc, where her ships are apparently up to par with those of the player’s ship. The fact is even worse for Discovery player characters whom I believe are told by Daniels that she needs to be stopped, but they are pretty much waiting for her to show up with everyone else.
What I’d do with her is make her show up at points whenever we’re dealing with B’Vat, since I feel she should have a vendetta against him as the matriarch of House Mo’Kai. She would of course be forced to retreat because she’s still gathering strength, which would culminate in what we later see in the Awakening arc.
What do you guys think of what I had to say?
So lately we had on last week’s Ten Forward weekly a question about whether or not people would be willing to have a season be devoted to bringing back the old Klingon War missions in lieu of doing new stories. It’s no secret that there are many people that would like to see these missions returned (myself included) especially since two of them have dialog that was done by the late Leonard Nimoy, as well as a resolution of how the Klingons restore their cranial ridges.
History of the removed episodes
Prior to removal of the eight Klingon War episodes, the arc had received a revamp back in 2014 which was primarily to update the quality & the pacing of the episodes, as they were launch era episodes. The revamp back then also saw them strip out a mission from the arc that was totally unrelated to the Klingon War (it was pretty much filler that wasn’t needed for the arc). The Klingon War arc also has the first appearance of Dr. Bashir, whom replaced a different NPC prior to Victory is Life.
In late fall 2017 with the introduction of Geordi LaForge into the game, the devs made the episodes “Hide and Seek” & “Stop the Signal” handed out by Geordi, where previously they had been done by Admiral Quinn. Both of these episodes had to do with the player searching for Undine while taking out Klingon listening posts. After this, the next time we as players get to deal anything in terms of the Undine is when we hit the Borg Advance arc.
The other arc they removed with these episodes is the introduction of B’Vat, the same guy we deal with in “Secret Orders” & “The Doomsday Device” whom just seems to disappear after that. Originally, his first introduction to us is in “The Kuvah’magh” which is also where we happen to meet Miral Paris as an adult. This particular episode set up an arc that resulted us having to enter the Guardian of Forever, chasing after B’Vat whom kidnapped Miral Paris & taking her to the past of 2270, where her DNA is ultimately used to cure the Klingons of the augment virus that resulted in them losing their cranial ridges.
Why I think the missions were removed
We know that in season 15 of STO aka Age of Discovery, the The Klingon War arc got gutted, removing more than half of the of the arc, saying that they planned to revamp these episodes & return them when they were finished. The goal was obviously to have them updated to make a better overall flow to the arc as well as to add in the cutscenes they have been working in with their animator. However, it’s been over 4 years since they had said they planned to update them. After Discovery aired two episodes featuring the Guardian of Forever during their 3rd season, which made the update of the episodes a bit of a higher priority, but this of course has also resulted in not much more of a move from them.
Here’s a rundown of the removed episodes
- Hide & Seek: The player is sent to a Klingon listening post where the player deals with an attack on a starfleet ship before continuing on to a facility later in the system where they acquire a material need for their ship to advance to the Paulson Nebula, finally confronting the listening post.
- Stop the Signal: Following on from the previous mission, the player is sent to another listening post where they ultimately destroy the place, but not before having to track down the exact position & finally dealing with an Undine frigate.
- The Kuvah’magh: In this introduction to B’vat, players not only have to deal with a blockade of Orions, but stop the conference from being blown up & finally confronting B’vat who is trying to kidnap Miral Paris under a false guise of peace.
- Treasure Trading Station: This episode deals with the players having to retrieve an female Orion named Marta who is willing to give the Federation vital information about the Klingon’s war plans in exchange for a safe haven away from them. The information learned leads to “Secret Orders” which was revamped to eliminate the mention of Marta.
- Task Force Hippocrates: This episode dealt with the player going on patrol helping a couple of ships & eventually a medical facility being raided by Gorn whom were found to be augmented and were raiding facilities for medical supplies.
- The Ultimate Klingon: A follow up from the previous mission, the player rescues Dr. Bashir whom provides more information about the Klingon research project aimed at making a powerful master species out of Klingon, Augment & Gorn DNA.
- City on the Edge of Never: B’vat resurfaces, once again kidnapping Miral Paris. The player chases him to the planet where the Guardian of Forever can be found, only to be delayed by his forces & watch as he goes through the gateway to the past.
- Past Imperfect: Following on from the previous episode, the player travels to the past with their ship to save the USS Enterprise from attack & ultimately confront B’vat, whom does succeed in giving them the means to restore their ridges, but is killed, finally putting a stop to changing history any worse than what he has.
Now, I believe these episodes were all removed because they wanted to streamline many of them since many just had continuations from previous one, especially the final two of the arc. There’s other things I feel they should keep like the death of Worf’s son Alexander, which would be a nudge for players to maybe play a Klingon character so they can go through it for themselves.
How I think it'll be revamped
We know that when Cryptic did the Year of Klingon, they went and revamped “Second Star to the right, Straight on ‘til morning” & “Keep your Enemies Closer” into “Mars, Bringer of War” while they folded “The Gateway of Gre’thor” into “Afterlife” which is something they have done prior with many Cardassian missions to make them feel more cohesive than what they were.
Somtaakhar on reddit has said that when it comes to revamping these missions that some may get combined similarly to what they did for the Klingon faction missions since many lead into another mission. Below is what I’d see them doing:
- Diplomatic Orders (unchanged)
- Stop the Signal (fold in Hide and Seek, eliminate certain unneeded sections that just pad out the episode)
- Stranded in Space (unchanged)
- Researcher Rescue (unchanged)
- The Kuvah’magh (updates to the look of the Klingons & the Federation interior)
- Secret Orders (possibly Treasure Trading Station folded into it)
- The Doomsday Device (unchanged)
- The Ultimate Klingon (possibly folding in Task Force Hippocrates, eliminating some fights)
- City on the Edge of Never (combined episode with Past Imperfect)
Now, if they were taking suggestions on what players would like to see, I’d make the above suggestions, but I would add in one thing that some people might find to be a contraversal addition to the arc: J’Ula.
The reason why I’d add her in mostly has to do with B’Vat. According to the Path to 2409, B’Vat in 2389 was said to have eliminated all of the members of the House of Mo’Kai, which saw Martok dissolve the House. A story blog that came out a few years ago had it revealed to us that rather than being all wiped out, House Mo’Kai went into hiding & Adet’pa continued to update House Mo’Kai’s intelligence database & seeks her out.
However, despite STO giving us the arc which makes the Discovery character’s initial arc as an introduction to J’Ula, we don’t really see her until AFTER the Gamma Quadrant arc, where her ships are apparently up to par with those of the player’s ship. The fact is even worse for Discovery player characters whom I believe are told by Daniels that she needs to be stopped, but they are pretty much waiting for her to show up with everyone else.
What I’d do with her is make her show up at points whenever we’re dealing with B’Vat, since I feel she should have a vendetta against him as the matriarch of House Mo’Kai. She would of course be forced to retreat because she’s still gathering strength, which would culminate in what we later see in the Awakening arc.
What do you guys think of what I had to say?
Post edited by baddmoonrizin on
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Comments
Put them back or get them updated.
They managed to keep Romulan, KDF and other missions in the list whilst they were being revamped; they have no excuses.
This also eliminates the "let's make a deal" (bargaining) aspect of people being willing to have a season be devoted to bringing back the old Klingon War missions in lieu of doing new stories.
They haven't ever monetised episodes (post-subscription), and I doubt they ever will because they will kill the game dead by doing so.
I want B'Vat back too, since He now does nothing and only shows in Temporal Ambassador, couldn't B'Vat return and get redeemed just by sending his alternate self on the Enterprise-C, I mean we got 2 T'Naes out it,
plus Bringer of Mars needs another revamp to bring back the torture section of that mission, It doesn't feel very Klingon without it.
I wonder if you might be confusing Klingons with the Terran Empire in the TOS episode "Mirror, Mirror". A lot of people do - I've even seen references in some old fics to a "Klingon Agonizer" - but by and large Klingons appear to believe (correctly) that torturing people for information is usually not terribly reliable, as the victim either won't talk at all or will start making things up to get it to stop.
It also doesn't seem very Starfleet for the captain of the DeWitt to spill everything about Sol's defenses just to make a Klingon stop slapping him. Even a Ferengi wouldn't fold that fast.
They're probably thinking of the mind sifter from Errand of Mercy, but even that wasn't exactly "torture" per se. Not healthy, but the deleterious effects were a consequence of scanning the mind, not the method itself. ...I think it was also only used in that one episode, so it could be chocked up to the writers not having figured out how they wanted to handle the Klingons yet. Heck, I believe an early TNG episode established Klingons don't take hostages (yeah, Kruge, but Kruge was operating way out of line in general), so torture seems fairly out of character, as well.
not shown, but Spock was tortured in Errand of Mercy. he was run through the mind sifter. the goon said he used force 4, which was sufficient to break anyone. but you are correct. actual torture was only shown twice in TOS and once that I recall in Enterprise.
Edit. I forgot about and did not see the above post. the Klingons did indeed use an agonizer in day of the dove, on Chekov if I'm not mistaken
But has Cryptic EVER returned content, once it's been removed from the game?
They have said multiple times in livestreams that they do want to revamp those story missions and bring them back. The issue is not lack of interest, its lack of time and resources while working on other things such as new content.
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This most recent livestream? They stated they still haven't found a place for it on their schedule, and that maybe after the next few content updates they might put it on.
Believe me, I'm not trying to be a troll here, it's just clear from what they say they have not put any work into them. Or at least, no further work from that was started 4 years ago. So, you understand it's not sounding so hopeful
Yes, to be clear, the information that I'm referring to is older not recent. My only point being that some work has already been done, so there is intent to have those missions return.
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I get your point and, as they were some of my favourite content, appreciate the optimism. However, so far we've had 4 years of them intending. That's a long time for something they're intending to do, so you'll understand it's hard to believe them until the work is actually being done on them.
They know how popular and requested this content is, there's no reason why they can't just code it into the Available tabs in the mean time. Or, if there is, a simple explanation of why would go a long way.
If they can roll a couple of them together and create a longer mission but want to cut out some random mobs to trim the playtime? Okay. But I am talking about cutting mobs, not actual story content.
As far as J'ula? Don't care. I do, however, think that a mention is enough. She doesn't need to be in the missions, and I'm not sure that she should be, no matter how much plot says that she may want to be.
If she doesn't have the force then the she doesn't have the force. She might be openly broadcasting "secret" messages that lead us to B'vat or otherwise feeding us information, but she doesn't need to be physically present.
Maybe a new cutscene at the end with her gloating over B'vat's defeat and foreshadowing her eventual rise to prominence, but she doesn't need to be in the missions as they are being run.
I also hope TOS characters get some special dialogue in the Revamp due to them originally being from the 23rd Century.
By now they're probably not in a playable state if some work has been done on them already. And right now they also don't take into account anything that has come up since they were pulled for revamp, such as J'ula. Its entirely possible that J'ula might have an interest in helping B'vat, thus making her a thorn in the side of Starfleet. And then we got the TOS and DSC characters that might warrant special dialog as well.
Hopefully they will have gotten some more work done since the last update we got on them in a livestream.
Hell... you can probably ask how the updates are doing in the monthly Q&A thread when it opens up again. Think things are a bit hectic atm with the Anniversary stuff and the new EP getting settled in.
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Every other update that's gone live had the work done behind the scenes and didn't affect the unrevamped version (case in point, the Year of Klingon revamps, and the Romulan ones the year before), I don't understand why the Klingon War missions are an exception. The content is clearly popular enough people would be willing to play the old, as is versions until the revamps are complete.
Unless otherwise explained, there's no reason why the old versions can't be put in the available tab. As I say, a little communication could have gone a long way.
There hasn't been a "monthly" Q&A since August, it's good to know another one might be coming.
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(In thinking it over, replacement by Undine might explain why B'vat doesn't remember his younger self asking us to give him "a warrior's death", because the replacement didn't quite get all the memories. In which case I'd like to see him transform just before that final fight in front of Paris.)
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I kind of understand where you're coming from with B'Vat, but there is one major thing to keep in mind here:
To add more context to the bolded part above, the House of B'Vat & the House of Mo'Kai had been relatively peaceful rivals at least since 2289. However, House of Mo'Kai member Aakan kills B'Vat's son K'Das, which reignites the feud. B'vat and his house go on a revenge spree resulting in all but Aakan killed. B'Vat finally corners Aakan on Ha'toria and kills him by ritual combat. Martok then said the House of Mo'Kai would be dissolved as they didn't have any members still alive...
Or at least so they thought. House of Mo'Kai, being a crafty house of subterfuge, went into hiding. Adet'pa, whom we know as the witch of Nimbus III originally, helped keep their secret database which they called the Grimoire updated. J'Ula then seeks Adet'pa out. This comes from this story blog: The Ascendant
One thing to note is that they say the House of J'mpok continues to spread lies of the House of Mo'Kai being defeated. This could mean that despite being dissolved, they had some activity in the years that followed, trying to stay in the shadows. After all, it was Martok that dissolved the houre, but clearly J'mpok wants to keep up the appearance of something that his predecessor had declared.
Now, it's possible that because Adet'pa's helping J'Ula behind the secenes, this is likely all the build-up we need as far as her being an even match in the 25th century.
However, let's not forget that as the MATRIARCH the House of Mo'Kai, knowing that her house was officially dissolved would leave J'Ula pretty furious, especially since it was B'Vat whom had a hand in it. I really doubt that she would willingly team up with him. I would also think that B'Vat would know much about the history of House Mo'Kai and thus not join up with J'Ula.
That's pretty much why I thought it would be a good way for her to be pushed into STO's early story.
Actually, originally, B'vat doesn't just disappear. In the removed episodes, B'vat kidnaps Miral Paris and takes her to the past, using her DNA to cure the Klingon Augment virus and fulfilling the prophecy of the Kuva'magh. The player, though, follows B'vat to the past, and with younger B'vat's urging at being disgusted with his future self, kills B'vat, thus concluding his storyline.
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that is unlikely. any program undergoing a revamp is copied and the copy is modified. that's a standard in the programming world, that way if something catastrophic happens, it can be pulled offline and the original restored. Could they add them tomorrow? yes. would there be bugs? yes. would they look horrible? YES. the sad thing is they need to do what they apparently cannot afford, hire a couple of devs whose job is nothing but do quality passes on content.