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Borg Shield Adaptation in Space

p331p331 Member Posts: 161 Arc User
Something I've been curious about for a while. Borg adapt to energy type weapons on the ground and require the use of a frequency remodulator to overcome that adaptation. As I recall when the Enterprise first encountered the Borg they were able to damage the Cube initially but later their weapons had no effect. Have the game developers ever commented on why the same thing doesn't occur in space when fighting against borg ships?
Post edited by baddmoonrizin on

Comments

  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 58,007 Community Moderator
    In canon we haven't seen that ability since Best of Both Worlds. The Cube in First Contact, and various ships seen later on, were just as vulnerable as any other ship to weapons. The main difference is that Borg ships are so decentralized that you can blow away like 80% of the ship and its still fully functional.

    So there isn't any space adaptation, and hasn't been any since Best of Both Worlds (which I think was the closest we've seen because of Enterprise having to rotate phaser frequencies to try and break free of a Borg tractor beam). After that its mostly just been sheer size and decentralized systems, and overwhelming firepower being the primary space defense.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • vetteguy904vetteguy904 Member Posts: 3,857 Arc User
    well, even if they did make the cubes adapt, I sispect there are a few percentage points of players who can still vape them before the adaption happens, and average players would be completely TRIBBLED in trying to take one down
    Spock.jpg

  • legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 37,279 Arc User
    Also, adaptation in space probably doesn't work very well, since a far higher range of frequencies is available for starship-grade weapons and computers can cycle them faster than the Borg can keep up.

    They did have one instance of a borg ship adapting to weapons fire after BOBW - Dark Frontier, when they were assimilating Species 10026.

    QUEEN: We've arrived. Are you ready?
    SEVEN: I have familiarised myself with the species.
    QUEEN: Tactical weakness.
    SEVEN: Their vessels lack manoeuverability.
    QUEEN: Tactical strength.
    SEVEN: They've developed a modulating phaser pulse that can penetrate our shields.
    QUEEN: How do you propose we adapt?
    SEVEN: You are the Borg. You tell me.
    QUEEN: Thirty nine of their vessels are converging on our position. They're firing weapons. Our shields are failing. We will be destroyed. How do you propose we adapt?
    SEVEN: Triaxillate our shield geometry to absorb their phaser pulses.
    QUEEN: I was thinking the same thing. Adaptation complete. They're no longer a threat.​​
    Like special weapons from other Star Trek games? Wondering if they can be replicated in STO even a little bit? Check this out: https://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1262277/a-mostly-comprehensive-guide-to-star-trek-videogame-special-weapons-and-their-sto-equivalents

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  • spiritbornspiritborn Member Posts: 4,257 Arc User
    There's also probably possibility that ships (especially in fleets) can pump so much energy (and by extension momentum yes even massless things have momentum) that the Cube is simply overwhelmed the adaption is linked to the shield systems after all and those are a piece of technology, not magic. Now a Borg cube is generally considered to be 3000 m*3000 m*3000 m so there's a lot of power there but not without limits.
  • fleetcaptain5#1134 fleetcaptain5 Member Posts: 4,782 Arc User
    edited November 2022
    spiritborn wrote: »
    There's also probably possibility that ships (especially in fleets) can pump so much energy (and by extension momentum yes even massless things have momentum) that the Cube is simply overwhelmed the adaption is linked to the shield systems after all and those are a piece of technology, not magic. Now a Borg cube is generally considered to be 3000 m*3000 m*3000 m so there's a lot of power there but not without limits.

    This is often forgotten, including by the writers.

    Adaptation should be thought of as learning to be prepared for the next incoming shot. If a ship is firing the same weapon with the same frequency, then that weapon will sooner or later be useless because the Borg can change their shield frequency. Or even adapt the physical and chemical properties of the molecules that make up their armour (both personal and for their ships).

    Changing such properties, however, would mean that things they were previously adapted to can damage them again. A piece of alloy or a shield cannot have endlessly different properties at once, after all.
    So for 'adaptation' to be the magic effect that it often became, the Borg would have to keep cycling between different configurations, properties and frequencies - and perfectly predict which one their enemy will use next.


    Things like 'they've adapted to all our frequencies' (Daniels in First Contact) shouldn't be happening. That's magic, technology and reality doesn't work like that indeed. So any feature with adaptation in space should work a bit like on the ground in STO: it makes weapons less useful (but still not totally useless) after an x amount of shots or time - until some properties of the weapons are being changed. Changing those, rotating through the characteristics should, however, never lead to running out of properties/frequencies or whatever.
    [4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother

    [3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 58,007 Community Moderator
    The problem though is that with how quickly we shoot, we'd hit that X amount rather quickly.
    Its one of the reasons miniguns and autorifles are not desirable weapons for use against the Borg on the Ground. Because the Borg adapt to those far faster due to how often they hit. Scale that up to ship size... it would be dang near INSTANT for cannon builds, especially with Rapid Fire active.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • fleetcaptain5#1134 fleetcaptain5 Member Posts: 4,782 Arc User
    They could make it time-dependent though. Instead of the number of shots, have the Borg adapt an x number of seconds after first being damaged by a certain weapon type.

    Cannon users would still be at a disadvantage due to having longer weapon cycles, but the problem would be less severe.


    Not that I'm in favour of adding adaptation anyway, my post above was merely to describe what would and what wouldn't make sense.

    In fact, based on what I wrote above:

    If they ever wanted to implement an adapt feature in space, it would make sense that the Borg can only adapt to and have immunity against a limited number of damage types at any moment. In that case, it wouldn't matter much whether you're using cannons or beams. By using, for example, coalition disruptors and regular ones at the same time, one of your weapons could still be effective while the other is not. And when they have adapted to your weapons, they automatically lose immunity against the Antiproton weapons of one of your team mates.

    It could make things a bit more interesting.

    Though I imagine that the people using Infected for DPS runs won't approve of this idea. :p
    [4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother

    [3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 58,007 Community Moderator
    The problem with that is that Coalition Disruptors are still doing Disruptor damage. Its the damage type that is adapted to, not the particular weapon. So when they adapt to Disruptor, its ALL disruptors. Not just Bob's Coalition Disruptors.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • p331p331 Member Posts: 161 Arc User
    edited November 2022
    While I'm not advocating for a change I was simply curious why borg ships didn't adapt like they did individually.

    The way the ground adaptation works, according to the wiki and post from 2012 that was referenced in the wiki, there is a 75% chance to gain an adaptation counter. When four counters have been gained the borg adapt to the energy type of the attack. Supposedly it is on an individual basis so that the adaptation only affects that one player. If it was implemented, and again I'm not saying it should be, they could raise the number of counters needed for adaptation.

    I could see fleets being more effective against the borg with multiple ships using weapons of varying frequency with the borg only being able to adapt to a few frequencies at a time. So while gaining resistance to one ship's weapons the others are still doing damage. A lone ship would have a lot more trouble staying ahead of the borg adapting to their weapon frequencies.

    This is all hypothetical and simple curiosity.

    Post edited by p331 on
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 58,007 Community Moderator
    In my experience its within a certain number of hits before the Borg Adapt. Hence why miniguns and autorifles are not really good options. Because they hit quickly, and potentially are adapted to faster than your remod cooldown.

    On the other hand I tend to use the TR-116, Cochrane Shotgun, and Tommygun against the Borg, as Kinetic and Physical are damage types the Borg don't adapt to so its a non issue.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 5,496 Arc User
    edited November 2022
    rattler2 wrote: »
    In my experience its within a certain number of hits before the Borg Adapt. Hence why miniguns and autorifles are not really good options. Because they hit quickly, and potentially are adapted to faster than your remod cooldown.

    On the other hand I tend to use the TR-116, Cochrane Shotgun, and Tommygun against the Borg, as Kinetic and Physical are damage types the Borg don't adapt to so its a non issue.

    Actually, that kinetic thing is probably a myth according to dialog in the shows. For instance, at the end of the Tommygun scene Picard throws the gun down and Lilly asks why he does not take it with them. Picard replies that it cannot be taken out of the room because it is holographic and the Borg would have adapted to it anyway by then.

    It seems like the situation is more like the one in Dune, the Borg shields do not seem to handle relatively slow moving sharp objects like bat'leths, bayonets, and combat knives very well.

    That said, the kinetic thing is a decent enough mechanic for ground encounters with Borg and it is never explicitly ruled out by the shows so it is not a big deal having it in the game.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 58,007 Community Moderator
    I figured that Picard was referring to the fact the Tommygun he used wasn't actually a real one, and that once the Borg figure out its a hologram they'd adapt to that aspect. After all, Photons and Forcefields are not solid matter.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • spiritbornspiritborn Member Posts: 4,257 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    I figured that Picard was referring to the fact the Tommygun he used wasn't actually a real one, and that once the Borg figure out its a hologram they'd adapt to that aspect. After all, Photons and Forcefields are not solid matter.

    That's assuming with the safeties off the holodeck isn't replicating actual bullets, food and drink has to be real for the illusion to work after all.
  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 5,496 Arc User
    Whether the bullets are "real" in the sense of regular matter or are holomatter that disintegrates outside of the holodeck field is probably moot, either way they would carry real kinetic energy just like a real bullet.

    If they could not adapt to kinetic energy the other races would have twigged to it eventually and started throwing souped-up ultra-fast torpedo buses at them with a chunk of heavy material in place of the warhead (like SFB slug drones), or even started using railguns for ultra-close-range last-ditch combat.

    Blades do not use a lot of kinetic energy by itself, the edge makes a force multiplier so a little energy is all it takes to shear through flesh and perhaps other materials causing bleeding and other sorts of physical harm, and the Borg probably have to let at least a certain minimum level of kinetic energy though the shields in order to be able to move themselves.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 58,007 Community Moderator
    I wonder if its less figuring out that bullets are a weakness and more "Its too dumb to work". Just like in Stargate SG-1, the Asgard seemed incapable of coming up with dumb solutions to the problem of the Replicators. They just kept developing more and more advanced technology... that ultimately failed and just fed the technobugs. Thor himself expressed that the Asgard can't fathom a simple chemically propelled projectile.

    We could be looking at something similar here in Star Trek. We've never seen a projectile weapon in play until the TR-116, which was originally developed for use in environments that prevented the use of Phasers, or in dampening fields that rendered phasers inoperable. Ultimately it was dropped in favor of regenerative phasers, however the design was kept on record. Beta canon says that a squad of Security Officers aboard, I think it was the USS Budapest, fought off the Borg with them during the Battle of Sector 001.
    In the Star Trek: Deep Space Nine - Mission Gamma novel Lesser Evil, Lieutenant Sam Bowers tells of his experiences aboard the USS Budapest during the Battle of Sector 001. The Budapest was one of a handful of Starfleet vessels equipped with prototype TR-116s. When the Borg attempted to assimilate the ship and its crew, Bowers led a security team equipped with TR-116 rifles through the ship, with orders to eliminate any and all Borg drones. Because the weapons used projectiles instead of energy beams, the drone's deflector shielding was useless, and the Budapest crew were successful in stopping the Borg.
    https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/TR-116_rifle

    Its easy to adapt to energy weapons. Its not so easy to adapt to something physically slamming into you. The Borg can't just manufacture body armor in response to guns.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
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