Remove the Dilithium/Zen Exchange Cap

telbasta7386 · September 2022

The dilithium economy is ruined right now. There are millions upon millions of dilithium in circulation ingame, and that amount rises every day; while there are very few people willing to sell zen, and this has led to a 3-5 month backup for sales to go through.

New fleet holding items (doffs/admiralty ship cards) were added in a vain attempt to combat this, without taking into consideration their cost to usefulness. Each of these items costs the equivalent of 600,000 dilithium, which at 500/per comes out to 1,200 zen per item, and none of them offers any benefits that cannot already be found either much cheaper or for free elsewhere. The only new fleet offering that is even moderately useful is the voth doffs, which offer the same active roster bonus as Graga Mal. Last I checked, Graga Mal is only about 30-40 million EC on the exchange. You can buy fleet modules or ship upgrade tokens and sell them for more than that, at a cost of 500 zen. Nobody is going to buy these things.

Now, I might consider selling my zen if I thought the dilithium I was getting in exchange was valuable enough. 500? Not a chance. 750, 1000, 1500? Maybe. Remove the cap of 500 on the dilithium exchange and the market will correct itself. Supply and demand economy does not work when you put artificial limitations on purchases or sales. The 500 dilithium per zen cap is a relic from a time when the economy wasn't supersaturated with dilithium farming alts.

rattler2 · September 2022

That won't solve the problem. In fact it would only make it worse because as it stands now... we'd just hit the cap instantly again. Not only that, it would make it even MORE painful for the F2P players who do rely on the Exchange to get anything. And its already painful as it is with the long wait times between zen orders.

baddmoonrizin · September 2022

Echoing my compatriot here. And Bort has already said as much the same when asked about this during a livestream a few weeks back. They won't be lifting the cap.

telbasta7386 · September 2022

baddmoonrizin wrote: »

Echoing my compatriot here. And Bort has already said as much the same when asked about this during a livestream a few weeks back. They won't be lifting the cap.

of course they won't, they're all filthy ferengi and the cap is there for profit.

rattler2 · September 2022

How is it there "for profit"?

Any Zen on the exchange is ALREADY purchased. They already have the money for that Zen. And real money Zen prices are not dictated by the Dilithium Exchange. 100 Zen is still $1 US. It would be $1 at 25/1, it is $1 at 500/1. That doesn't change. Already paid for before going on the Exchange. How is the cap making them money if the real money price for Zen doesn't change? And how does raising the cap change that?

It doesn't. All it would do is move the goalpost farther away than it already is for F2P players. And if you think about it, its actually better for both sides if the Exchange isn't overcapped like it is now. If there is more movement on both sides, that means they're making more money because more Zen is on the Exchange. Like it was a few years ago when we were still below 500/1 and had a Zen surplus rather than a deficit we have now.

Raising the cap won't solve the current issue. It will just make it worse.

baddmoonrizin · September 2022

telbasta7386 wrote: »

baddmoonrizin wrote: »

Echoing my compatriot here. And Bort has already said as much the same when asked about this during a livestream a few weeks back. They won't be lifting the cap.

of course they won't, they're all filthy ferengi and the cap is there for profit.

LOL. Increasing the cap would actually encourage more Zen sales, as those buying Dilithium would get more bang for their buck. So, refusing to increase the cap is in direct opposition to profit. 🤷🏼‍♀️

davefenestrator · September 2022

baddmoonrizin wrote: »

telbasta7386 wrote: »

baddmoonrizin wrote: »

Echoing my compatriot here. And Bort has already said as much the same when asked about this during a livestream a few weeks back. They won't be lifting the cap.

of course they won't, they're all filthy ferengi and the cap is there for profit.

LOL. Increasing the cap would actually encourage more Zen sales, as those buying Dilithium would get more bang for their buck. So, refusing to increase the cap is in direct opposition to profit. 🤷🏼‍♀️

Yep. For someone buying dil to upgrade their fleet, getting 100,000 dil per $1 is likely to get them to spend more cash monies not less. The same with someone buying 1,000 Phoenix boxes in the vain hope of getting an Epic token.

aelfwin1 · September 2022

telbasta7386 wrote: »

Remove the cap of 500 on the dilithium exchange and the market will correct itself.

The market can't correct itself until new Dil sinks the size of new Starbases etc. are introduced .

The game is aimed at generating enough Dil to build such multi year projects .
When there are no such projects, but the Dil keeps getting generated, you get what we have now ... , with Dil flowing in far greater quantity to the Exchange .

Your solution is no solution at all . It just devalues Dil 2-3 more times .

Cryptic have made it clear that no such bases or other projects will be introduced, and instead are trying to influence the market through shuffling around existing assets in the game .
They will fail .

rattler2 · September 2022

They're taking a multi pronged approach to the problem. One of the avenues is looking into sustainable sinks that don't die off in a few years like Starbases. Its a complex problem, and they're looking into multiple layers to address it. And unfortunately it won't be the silver bullet everyone is hoping for. Its going to take time, and no one thing alone will solve it. Its gotta be multiple things working together.

I'm frustrated by the exchange too. Its how I got a lot of my C-Store stuff. But I'm not going to go after anyone over it.

annemarie30 · September 2022

let fleets fight it out. if your starbase is destroyed, you have to rebuild it. it would be a non stop dil sink, except for the uber fleet that whups everyone else

pcubed · September 2022

I agree the cap should be raised. I am buying keys to convert to energy credits all the time. For me I would rather pay a few bucks then grind my butt off. I would gladly get some dilithium too if I thought the price was worth it.

lianthelia · September 2022

telbasta7386 wrote: »

baddmoonrizin wrote: »

Echoing my compatriot here. And Bort has already said as much the same when asked about this during a livestream a few weeks back. They won't be lifting the cap.

of course they won't, they're all filthy ferengi and the cap is there for profit.

While I partially agree with the greed part, what would be the difference? 1500 dilithium for 1 zen? That's 4.5 million dilithium for a t6 ship...and dilithium is still gonna be worthless for a lot of people because a large chunk of the game gets TONS of it and has little to nothing to spend it on

So the exchange is still gonna be busted...until they start adding worthwhile things to buy with dilithium, but they're more concerned with their gamble box ships or expensive packs with exclusives to milk people.

telbasta7386 · September 2022

annemarie30 wrote: »

let fleets fight it out. if your starbase is destroyed, you have to rebuild it. it would be a non stop dil sink, except for the uber fleet that whups everyone else

because pvp is so notoriously good in this game /s

phoenixc · September 2022

Players tend to come to STO in part because it is not infested by mandatory PvP, (and make no mistake, having fleet facilities destroyable would make it mandatory). Statistically, PvP tends to be disliked by casual players and they now make up the majority of MMO gamers. On top of that, there are other sci-fi games that are better set up for PvP than STO is.

evilmark444 · September 2022

aelfwin1 wrote: »

It just devalues Dil 2-3 more times .

It's already devalued to that point, the reason the exchange is backed up is because we (those who put Zen in the exchange) can't charge what the Zen is actually worth due to the cap. A cap increase is not going to happen, and I'm not arguing for or against it anyway (though a 1000:1 exchange rate would make me VERY happy when I need dil), but the ACTUAL value of dil is already in the 750-1000:1 range.

aelfwin1 · September 2022

rattler2 wrote: »

They're taking a multi pronged approach to the problem. One of the avenues is looking into sustainable sinks that don't die off in a few years like Starbases. Its a complex problem, and they're looking into multiple layers to address it. And unfortunately it won't be the silver bullet everyone is hoping for. Its going to take time, and no one thing alone will solve it. Its gotta be multiple things working together.

Yes, that was the wholesale pitch that they put forth .

In practice, so far that "multi pronged approach" included :

1) Nerfing the T5 Rep Dil awards (changing stats on existing .txt files)
2) Currently, introducing a small number of BOFFS and Doffs (most of which were just changing stats on existing .txt files -- I know that the Embassy SRO's didn't get new art, not sure about the rest, since I didn't bother to look them up)

I might be missing more, it's late and I'm tired .
Other less recent moves I recall were the changes to Contraband (less available, and turn in time was changed from 4 hours to 20 -- nuking my Dil Weekend income) , and sometime later lower Tier ships were made available for purchase with Dil .

But the one constant behind all of these moves were actions that contained as little actual work as possible (mostly changing stats in existing systems) -- which brings us to the actual nature of their refusal to make more bases . That's actual extra work for them , and that's a no-no !
That's where their "multi pronged approach" stops .
And we are taking about the same company that a decade ago made a story mission per month, along side new systems, ships, bases and other stuff , all at the same time .

So yeah, in comparison, in the Dan Stahl era they might have over promised and dropped the ball on the occasion, but there were a hell of a lot more balls in the air then there are today . No wonder their pink haired coordinatior moved on . There's substantially less work, and no need for her skills .
Missing you Zero.

strathkin · September 2022

telbasta7386 wrote: »

The dilithium economy is ruined right now. There are millions upon millions of dilithium in circulation ingame, and that amount rises every day; while there are very few people willing to sell zen, and this has led to a 3-5 month backup for sales to go through.

...

Now, I might consider selling my zen if I thought the dilithium I was getting in exchange was valuable enough. 500? Not a chance. 750, 1000, 1500? Maybe.

Remember what they did in Neverwinter when they raised the CAP? They made the wait for those selling (Diamonds) our Diltihium from a few weeks to well over 1 year for the Sale to complete. Prior to that when it was capped at 500:1 not 750:1 it was often only 2-5 weeks at best. And 500:1 is still very excellent value for those buying it with ZEN.

Several I know buy it at 500:1 giving up ZEN several times in the last year, as it's still great value to get a Dilithium boost. Given people for years use to only get 150-350:1 but only 4+ years ago.

darkbladejk · September 2022

Dil to zen exchange rate going even higher is bad for players and the game itself. With a game like STO you need a balance of free to play people and paying customers. The paying customers to keep the lights on, and the free to play folks willing to grind out the dilithium to change to zen that paying customers exchange.

Consider the exchange and game like a town sitting in front of hydro-electric dam that's giving the town power. In order for the generators to provide power to the town, you need the water level to be high enough so that the generators can make power. On the opposite side you also don't want it to go so high that it floods out the generators or spills into the town. Dams have floodgates that are meant to release excess water to prevent issues. the problem you have right now is the floodgates have become overwhelmed and the water has built up so much that the dam has burst and flooded the town out. Right now they're trying to remove the excess water, repair the dam, and install new floodgates that will prevent it from happening again.

Raising the cap on the dilithium exchange will cause far far more harm than it ever will good. If the cap were to be moved, it should be lowered before anything else.

To remove excess dilithium you need dilithium sinks that people will want to invest in that is renewable. Right now we don't have those.

annemarie30 wrote: »

let fleets fight it out. if your starbase is destroyed, you have to rebuild it. it would be a non stop dil sink, except for the uber fleet that whups everyone else

If you want to murder the game, that's how you do it. Forced pvp is a cancer that needs to be eradicated from online gaming completely. If I want to pvp I will do so on my own terms and at a time of my choosing.

khazlol · September 2022

maybe dilithium auctions could fix it. of course the items sold would have to be worth it. exclusive even.

telbasta7386 · September 2022

in a similar post on reddit, someone had the idea of removing Lobi and replacing that with dilithium, and that could be a viable sink IMO.

Instead of getting lobi when opening lockboxes or R&D packs, give a small amount of dilithium. Change the lobi store to use dilithium, and price it at an amount reasonable for what is being sold. I would equate Lobi ships to being more valuable than standard zstore ships, but maybe not quite as valuable as legendary ships. So, more than 3000 zen equivalent, but less than 9000. Go with 6k, which comes out to 3 million dilithium.

For the consoles and space sets, probably 200-300k dilithium per item. For the costume and lesser unlocks, maybe 100-200k dilithium per item.

I've always found it pretty ironic that in-game lobi is described as being a pretty basic/worthless gemstone used for cheap jewelry, and yet here we are using it to buy starships; and it's always really been nothing more than a consolation prize for people who open dozens of lockboxes and get nothing worthwhile.

baddmoonrizin · September 2022

I wouldn't support a removal of Lobi as a currency, but I would support a Dilithium/Lobi conversion. Of course, the conversion rate would have to be fairly high, but I believe it could work as a fair decent Dilithium sink. Unfortunately, it could end up competing with Key sales, so it's not likely to be something that's implemented. 🤷🏼‍♀️

phoenixc · September 2022

Lobi has to be only available from the "gamble" boxes to avoid the game being subjected to US gambling laws. The legal fiction is that you are paying cash for the lobi, and anything else in the box is (in the legal sense) just bonus items and is therefore not gambling. It has to be valuable enough to justify the legal fiction and it has to have a stable value in relation to the cash, and that would be impossible to do with dil.

baddmoonrizin · September 2022

Well, then, I rescind my suggestion. 🤷🏼‍♀️

telbasta7386 · September 2022

> @phoenixc#0738 said:
> Lobi has to be only available from the "gamble" boxes to avoid the game being subjected to US gambling laws. The legal fiction is that you are paying cash for the lobi, and anything else in the box is (in the legal sense) just bonus items and is therefore not gambling. It has to be valuable enough to justify the legal fiction and it has to have a stable value in relation to the cash, and that would be impossible to do with dil.

Should just get rid of the boxes in the first place. Gamble boxes were easily one of the worst changes to happen to the gaming industry in the last two decades.

But as suspected, it always comes down to profit. If the company can't somehow monetize our entertainment for their own gain, nothing gets considered.

paradox · September 2022

I'm fine with the cap, my main issue is the whole conversation process, you get a TRIBBLE ton of Dil only for it to equal a tiny amount of Zen in exchange, it's like handing a cashier a $100 dollar bill and getting only pennies back, before the crash it took about 3 IRL years to grind enough Dil to afford a LTS with multiple alts, now it takes even longer with the DilEx crash.

paradox · September 2022

telbasta7386 wrote: »

> @phoenixc#0738 said:
> Lobi has to be only available from the "gamble" boxes to avoid the game being subjected to US gambling laws. The legal fiction is that you are paying cash for the lobi, and anything else in the box is (in the legal sense) just bonus items and is therefore not gambling. It has to be valuable enough to justify the legal fiction and it has to have a stable value in relation to the cash, and that would be impossible to do with dil.

Should just get rid of the boxes in the first place. Gamble boxes were easily one of the worst changes to happen to the gaming industry in the last two decades.

But as suspected, it always comes down to profit. If the company can't somehow monetize our entertainment for their own gain, nothing gets considered.

Also apparently everything in STO was so overpriced that it drove the Whales away, which caused the DilEx crash, the Whales were literally keeping the DilEx running, it's like having an electric company that was powered by hamsters, you take hamsters away or they go on strike and you suddenly have no more power.

baddmoonrizin · September 2022

Y'all are funny. So, I suppose they should be altruistic and provide your entertainment for free. 😏

baddmoonrizin · September 2022

I just realized that this is an FCT topic. /Thread

Remove the Dilithium/Zen Exchange Cap

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