Gorn Ship from SNW Episode 4.. yes, please

annemarie30 · July 2022

Can we haz??? pweeeeze???

questerius · July 2022

I'm sure it will make its way into the game sooner or later, but based upon the screenshots i have to take a bit of time to think if it will be a purchase for me (and i actually like the Gorn).

fleetcaptain5 · July 2022

Does it change shape or are those multiple ships?

The second and third pictures seem to have a more or less symmetrical design, whereas the first and fourth show something very different.

And even between the second and third there are clear differences. The bat-like design of the third looks nothing like the K't'inga-like configuration (one head on an extended neck, but seemingly with that weird appendage instead of another nacelle in the back) in the second picture.

legendarylycan · July 2022

Why does it look like it's made out of rock?

And I realize the Gorn are a reptilian race, but did they really have to make the ship look like a snake? Or is this supposed to be a nod to SFC/KA where their ship classes were named after snakes?

annemarie30 · July 2022

two ship classes, sorry but it was difficult to capture,and there are none I could find on the web. the smaller one is a tri ship sorta like the tholians, images 2 and 3. the top and bottom were the bigg ship, they both look very organic.

here is video from youtube for the small one SPOILERS, it does show the beginning of the episode's plot

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuQsF2y1P98

and the big ship, around 2:05 in the clip

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmOFIjHhvPg

I think that they could release the small guys at a BoP / raider, and the big guy as a much needed KDF science platform, or they could be together as a nod to the PF tender concept from the star fleet battles board game

angrytarg · July 2022

Yeah, I can't really get warm with the Gorn redesign. Granted, no actual Gorn have been seen, but the weird rock-like ships made little sense. Gorn are no fast predators, they're slow and sluggish but intelligent and powerful. If we need a stalking, creeping enemy they could have chosen a race that wasn't shown to be the complete opposite 😝

legendarylycan · July 2022

angrytarg wrote: »

Gorn are no fast predators, they're slow and sluggish

Correction, ONE Gorn was slow and sluggish, that being the one Kirk fought - every subsequent appearance has shown them to be remarkably agile, from Slar in Enterprise to all the Gorn at that wedding chowing down on Rutherford in Lower Decks. Given we have no idea how old that particular Gorn was, nor their average lifespan, that could well have been an older member of their species, and like Humans, they get significantly slower as they age.

angrytarg · July 2022

legendarylycan#5411 wrote: »

angrytarg wrote: »

Gorn are no fast predators, they're slow and sluggish

Correction, ONE Gorn was slow and sluggish, that being the one Kirk fought - every subsequent appearance has shown them to be remarkably agile, from Slar in Enterprise to all the Gorn at that wedding chowing down on Rutherford in Lower Decks. Given we have no idea how old that particular Gorn was, nor their average lifespan, that could well have been an older member of their species, and like Humans, they get significantly slower as they age.

Granted, yes. My image of the Gorn is a bit outdated, although I have to say that the species becomes a writing-mess like the Borg did, with almost every incarnation of them functioning vastly different. In SNW they're bascially xenomorphs, DIS suggested they have scientific skills and technology en par with the UFP, TOS established them as slow and strong, with impressive ranged combat capabilities and no fast raptoring, KT spoke of them having live offspring while SNW establishes they're parasitic, LD shows the Gorn wedding and a Gorn chef, both occasions don'T find the primal theme SNW chooses...

In my personal opinion we have multiple species that were just named the same each time, but I hate the "subspecies/different type breeds" approach so yeah, to me they've just been brken due to multiple sloppy re-writes.

EDIT: It's also funny in my opinion that SNW's Gorn became a essential rip-off of The Orville's Arachnids.

rattler2 · July 2022

We know very little about the Gorn in general.

In TOS we saw one single Gorn, an adult, and I believe a ship Captain.
In Enterprise, we saw an adult Mirror Universe Gorn who didn't look to be slow.
In Lower Decks... I kinda find that one questionable as that was not an actual encounter but a, probably inaccurate and exagurated, retelling of events by Rutherford under pressure.
Discovery doesn't contradict TOS.
SNW doesn't contradict TOS.

Remember we are dealing with a reptilian species that has seen VERY LITTLE on screen development. We cannot assume that their life cycle is like our own mammalian life cycle. Not only that, in some beta canon sources (games and novels) it is suggested that the Gorn are actually three distinct races from three different worlds... but all have a common ancestor. So if this plays into that... it doesn't contradict anything we have seen in the past in Alpha Canon.

Speaking as someone who likes a lot of different sci-fi, I don't find the Gorn being far more vicious and, frankly alien, to be a problem. The key thing to remember is that we are dealing with something that A: is not a mammal like most races encountered in Star Trek, and B: we know very little about in general. The savageness of their young could very well be a natural defense because their homeworld is a savage place. Trying to apply mammalian (human) development to a REPTILE doesn't work.

From what we have seen in SNW, the Gorn basically are the embodiment of Survival of the Fittist. Only the strong survive. There is nothing to contradict what came before because we haven't seen a full grown Gorn in SNW yet. We've seen their ships, which do prove they are a space fairing, intelligent race, and we have seen their young, which I believe were implied to be EXTREMELY young. No one has babies that are starship captains right off the bat. It is entirely possible that the Gorn have to raise their young this way because the early stages they are for all intents and purposes feral until a certain point in their development.

If we look at some larger reptiles on Earth... the young aren't slow like their parents. They're fast because they NEED to be to have the best chance to survive. Not only that... you'd be surprised how quickly some of the big ones can actually move when they need to. Komodo Dragons may appear slow, but if they need a burst of speed they are fast. Same with Salt Water Crocodiles. While they are faster in the water, they actually can run if they need to.

So ultimately... the horror aspects of young Gorn... don't bother me at all because we're not dealing with mammals. We're dealing with something that does instil primal fear in mammals. And something that is by mammalian standards totally alien.

As for the ships... bring 'em on! KDF does need a few new offerings that aren't Klingon.

darthorici · July 2022

You don't want the ship in the game! As it will be a lockbox or promo ship.

crm14916 · July 2022

Oh, but Darth, that's precisely why it will end up in game... The obsession with single-character unlocks and lockbox everything makes me think those may just be Cryptic's only source of income...

But honestly, they look a whole lot like the Breen raider we got a few years ago...

CM

fleetcaptain5 · July 2022

rattler2 wrote: »

We know very little about the Gorn in general.
In TOS we saw one single Gorn, an adult, and I believe a ship Captain.

In Enterprise, we saw an adult Mirror Universe Gorn who didn't look to be slow.

In Lower Decks... I kinda find that one questionable as that was not an actual encounter but a, probably inaccurate and exagurated, retelling of events by Rutherford under pressure.

Discovery doesn't contradict TOS.

SNW doesn't contradict TOS.

Remember we are dealing with a reptilian species that has seen VERY LITTLE on screen development. We cannot assume that their life cycle is like our own mammalian life cycle. Not only that, in some beta canon sources (games and novels) it is suggested that the Gorn are actually three distinct races from three different worlds... but all have a common ancestor. So if this plays into that... it doesn't contradict anything we have seen in the past in Alpha Canon.

Speaking as someone who likes a lot of different sci-fi, I don't find the Gorn being far more vicious and, frankly alien, to be a problem. The key thing to remember is that we are dealing with something that A: is not a mammal like most races encountered in Star Trek, and B: we know very little about in general. The savageness of their young could very well be a natural defense because their homeworld is a savage place. Trying to apply mammalian (human) development to a REPTILE doesn't work.

From what we have seen in SNW, the Gorn basically are the embodiment of Survival of the Fittist. Only the strong survive. There is nothing to contradict what came before because we haven't seen a full grown Gorn in SNW yet. We've seen their ships, which do prove they are a space fairing, intelligent race, and we have seen their young, which I believe were implied to be EXTREMELY young. No one has babies that are starship captains right off the bat. It is entirely possible that the Gorn have to raise their young this way because the early stages they are for all intents and purposes feral until a certain point in their development.

If we look at some larger reptiles on Earth... the young aren't slow like their parents. They're fast because they NEED to be to have the best chance to survive. Not only that... you'd be surprised how quickly some of the big ones can actually move when they need to. Komodo Dragons may appear slow, but if they need a burst of speed they are fast. Same with Salt Water Crocodiles. While they are faster in the water, they actually can run if they need to.

So ultimately... the horror aspects of young Gorn... don't bother me at all because we're not dealing with mammals. We're dealing with something that does instil primal fear in mammals. And something that is by mammalian standards totally alien.

As for the ships... bring 'em on! KDF does need a few new offerings that aren't Klingon.

Good points.

I'd like to add that it's not just the environment, but also their way of reproduction. Larger mammals typically carry a single baby. Raising that child will take heavy investments - but it's the only one to look after, so that isn't a very serious drawback.

Species that lay (many) eggs or get many offspring each time they're pregnant on the other hand, are probably a lot different in how much time, effort and resources they're going to invest in a single individual. Each life is, for them perhaps, just less valuable if it takes too much away from the other ones (1). Survival of the fittest and the need to compete are likely much stronger in such species. That might also explain why the Gorn are shown to be so territorial.

That greater level of competition should also greatly effect the level of cooperation in such a species/culture, whether they're more individualistic or collectivistic and so on. And we don't even need to look to aliens in Scifi, because we can see it on Earth too indeed. Humans, horses and elephants live in groups, whereas cats, dogs and turtles tend to be more solitary.

Although exceptions do exist of course, for example when reproduction rests with only one or a few individuals like with bees and ants. I'm not sure whether SNW has touched upon that yet, but it would be interesting if they did something with it.

(1) Side note: I remembered something Shenti Yisec Eres Ree, the reptilian doctor from the USS Titan thought. Something about how, if offspring of a Pahkwa-thanh dies, the mother will eat it (instead of mourning and then burying it) to reabsorb nutrients - which can make a difference for the rest of her offspring.

angrytarg · July 2022

The point is that making them xenomorph ripoffs is kinda nonsensical in my opinion (especially after The Orville basically had the exact same episode just weeks before). Also, it's contradictionary to Gorn getting a c-section. Plus we need to reevaluate the fandom hate against Kobali 🤣

lianthelia · July 2022

valoreah wrote: »

I thought this was the alien xenomorph ship from the Alien series since that is what it appears the Gorn have become?

Yup...they basically made the Gorn a xenomorph, and how they reproduce makes absolutely no sense at all...but when have these writers ever cared about making any sense at all?

phoenixc · July 2022

There is also the throwaway dialog in DS9 where it was mentioned that Cestus III became a joint UFP/Gorn colony world. I seriously doubt any Federation citizens would want to share a world with Xenomorphs or the equivalent.

nixie50 · July 2022

Folks, the thread is on the ships.. and i say sure, bring them on, even though the small one looks tholian

phoenixc · July 2022

To me the ships look a lot more Nausican than Tholian despite the three arms on the small one.

fleetcaptain5 · July 2022

nixie50 wrote: »

Folks, the thread is on the ships.. and i say sure, bring them on, even though the small one looks tholian

It's not entirely unjustified that the thread has gorn in the direction it went though; as noted above, no one had seen the Gorn yet at the time (in-universe) of this episode.

Their culture is only limitedly discussed in Trek so far: the species were until recently little more than an eggcho of a now rather old episode and eggxhumed by this more recent one.

This also means the purpose of their ships (scientific research / extending their empire / harvesting resources / trade?) is largely unknown.
And that, in turn, means that there is room for debate as to what these ships should be and capable of, if they were ever brought to STO.

Personally I'm not a big fan of bringing one-off ships into the game and treat them like they were regular ships. But since there seem to be little boundaries anymore as to what we can fly, I think it's safe to assume that it will be released at some point anyway.

Gorn Ship from SNW Episode 4.. yes, please

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