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Changes to Phoenix Box Discussion

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  • husanakxhusanakx Member Posts: 1,273 Arc User
    So let me guess, there'll be a better upgrade token coming soon in the Infinity Lockox?.........

    They already include ultimate upgrades with almost every T7 ship. I mean legendary ship pack.
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,913 Arc User
    edited May 5
    A mixed bag here.. I really like the initial concept.

    The issue described many times is that a good dilithium sink has to be something desirable and sustainable.. something people continue to want. Phoenix Boxes are a good idea for that provided things are regularly added to the box so that people keep having reasons to spend dilithium to acquire them. The real issue is finding items to add to the box that are desirable, things people will spend to acquire but things that they aren't reserving for the Mudd Store. Reading the first round of additions, while I like the idea, I find the selection of added items to be disappointing. I will reserve judgement though and see what's added in the future.

    The reduction to effectiveness of the Phoenix Kits is not one I am really all that thrilled about. I get it, I understand it, I don't have a super strong reaction either way.. but the reduction seems a bit heavy handed to me. They cut their effectiveness almost in half, which I think was a bit much.

    My biggest problem is 5 Ultra Rare for 1 experimental? Seriously? As rare as those tokens are.. do they have any idea how many boxes you need to open to get 5 UR? I bought a ton of them today to stock up before the nerf.. I spent about 1.5M Dilithium and I got 2. Considering these are sold in the C-Store and are frequently given away for Red Alert events, 5 Ultra Rare seems way too expensive to me.

    The success or failure of this idea will depend entirely on their ability to continue to add desirable items to the packs. We'll see how it goes.. I like the idea, but I question the implementation. On the bright side, they got me to spend a ton of Dilithium today to stock up on kits before the nerf.. so good job on that.

    Sad part is.. I still have millions more I didn't spend. :lol:
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    Discovery is good, it's you that sucks.
  • husanakxhusanakx Member Posts: 1,273 Arc User
    edited May 5
    If Cryptic is thinking the box is now good for 6 months I hope they rethink that. They should be adding things on a rotating basis is my thinking.

    STO has TONS of stuff from old lockboxes that are actually hard to come by... once things go to infinity there is so much stuff in that box that some stuff gets overlooked. Putting some of that stuff in there LONG term is not a great idea IMO... however why not put things in for one month or even one week stands. Then Cycle them often.

    Here are a few examples..,
    - Mini-tech (These I would say should be an acceptation and just be added to Phoenix all the time.... sell them one at a time in blue and 3/4 at a time for a purple.) I was smart enough to snag 1,000s of Discovery lockboxes when these where free... and I have been selling them for months making tons of EC. Hey it would hurt my disco box sales but mini tech is what makes those boxes special.
    https://sto.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Mini-Tech
    - Lockbox weapons. Not all of them and Never permeant editions. But why not add 1 lockbox weapon box for a purple token for a week as a promo. Not only do we push some lockbox weapons, we also push more upgrades. Win win. Cycle the Weapon of the month or something and it can be an ongoing sink.
    - Lockbox traits... this will drive EC market works nuts but why not cycle a few traits into Phoenix. In for a week or two then out. Replaced by some other old traits.
    - Sync up events... Academy week ? Why not drop specific lockbox research assignments into the box for the week.
    - Lobi items... Ok this one would have to be really random. However if Cryptic notices the exchange is backed up badly again. Drop a couple lobi ground, or even space items into the Phoenix for a weekend. Doesn't have to be the latest greatest... but you know Undine armour, or the Elachi space set type stuff.

    Another idea for when you really want to drop the valve. Seeing as the tech is clearly working to allow you to sell items with multiple token costs. Why not do with Phoenix like what you do when you offer older Promo ships in the lobi store as a time limited sale. Add 1-2 Older T6 lockbox/lobi ships to the Phoenix store in a time limited fashion but sell them for 2 Ultimate tokens.
    If Cryptic ever needed an emergency Dill exchange relief imagine what a one week offer of say;
    Sphere Builder Denuos Dreadnought Carrier - 3 gold tokens
    Sphere Builder Edoulg Science Vessel - 2 gold tokens
    And really offering say bound Covert Phaser packs for a purple token for a week would probably sink more dill then ship offers.
  • drazursouthclawdrazursouthclaw Member Posts: 220 Arc User
    edited May 5
    I would like to politely state my grievances regarding the upcoming changes to the Phoenix Pack.

    1. I mainly use them for the upgrade perks, so all of my grievances revolve around that.

    2. A day or two is NOT long enough to give people time to prepare for this change. We can't all centre our lives around gaming, as much as we might like to.

    3. As time has gone on, a lot of quality of life changes have been made for Alt-heavy accounts, such as event ships unlocking per account. As far as the Phoenix Pack changes goes, this is a step backwards for Alts. I still have toons that need dil in order to upgrade, and this is just going to make it harder.

    Yes I've had years to do that - but again: We can't all centre our lives around gaming, and a day or two is NOT a reasonable amount of warning for such a huge change.

    4. The blog title is 'BETTER ODDS AND MORE PRIZES IN THE PHOENIX PRIZE PACK!' - Talk about burying the lede. If I hadn't clicked on the blog out of spite ('Are they increasing the odds from .000000001 to .0000001, lol'), I wouldn't have known about this scummery.

    5. A lot of you people are happy about this. That blows my mind. It's the classic case of 'I already have a sandwich, so you can't POSSIBLY still be hungry'. I understand that we, the community, are essentially powerless when it comes to game design choices, but it'd be nice to see some player solidarity in a franchise that built its brand on tolerance. To be clear, I'm not saying it's reaslitic: I'm just saying it would be nice.

    6. Apart from the Alt Quality of Life changes - which happened years ago - this game has (in my opinion) been in a steady decline for some time now and this is the final straw for me. I will be giving the game a wide berth for the foreseeable future. I know that doesn't affect anyone else but it sure affects me.

    *****************************

    Ultimately, I know I could/will adjust to the changes eventually. I'm not mad this is happening per se. I'm mad about how disingenous the whole thing is.

    Like, the blog post is the article definition of 'piddling in my pocket and telling me its raining'.

    It seems to me that I'm in the minority here, and that is what it is, but let me tell you that I am incredibly upset with this turn of events. That blog post reeks of scumminess - like somebody has pickpocketed you under the guise of a magic trick - and it's a bad bad bad sign for the future of the game.

    In my opinion.

    To be 100% clear: I'm aware that whales run this game (because that's how MMOs work) and I understand that Cryptic needs to pander to them in order to remain in business. I bought a life sub years ago, and I've already gotten my money's worth 10 times over. I rarely buy Zen, so it could be argued that I've been carried by the whales, as most of us have. I am thankful for them, even if it doesn't seem like it. If this change is for them, well, I hate it but I accept it: If they're not happy, the game disappears eventually.

    Again, I'm just mainly upset at how Cryptic have gone about it. Like, would it have REALLY have been so bad to let us have the whole Upgrade Week to prepare? And that blog post was essentially clickbait.

    Madness.

    Anyway, I can't be doing this all night, I've got some upgrading to do, regardless of what I had planned tonight. And then I'll put the game away. Because when I do revisit the game, I don't want my first thought to be 'Guess I'd better set those ships up'.

    And there's a part of me that's like: 'There will be something else you'll have to deal with by then, like T7 ships or Mk XX gear or whatever'. Hey, at least those would be positive changes for me.

    Anyway, that's my two cents worth. Stay safe out there folks, and keep smiling. :)
  • doctorstegidoctorstegi Member Posts: 960 Arc User
    westmetals wrote: »
    husanakx wrote: »
    So let me guess, there'll be a better upgrade token coming soon in the Infinity Lockox?.........

    They already include ultimate upgrades with almost every T7 ship. I mean legendary ship pack.

    I cannot believe this needs to be said once again, but...

    Legendary is not T7. Combat wise, (in terms of quantity of console slots and BOFF slots) they are no better than fleet-T6. No new combat mechanics. They just come with extra purchase perks (extra skins, consoles, traits, including one account-wide trait).

    The fact that they 2 different and most of them Commander and Lt. Cmdr Special Bridge Officer Station makes them by far superior over a T6 Fleet ship. Also some of the ships are completely different like the Defiant has turned into a Warship with full Pilot maneuvering ect...

    You could say that a Legendary Ship with experimental upgrade token is a T7 ship. There is a reason why they don't put out T7 ships and called them Legendary Ships because of the disaster when they brought T6 ships out. They lost alot of people back then who put money into this game to buy all the T5 ships just to find out that they aren't worth nothing anymore. They devalued the T5 ships and they were not going to make the same mistake again so they find a solution all of us more or less can live with.

    C-Store Inc. is still looking for active members on the fed side. If you don't have a fleet feel free to contact me in game @stegi.
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,913 Arc User
    edited May 5
    You could say that a Legendary Ship with experimental upgrade token is a T7 ship.

    You can, sure. But you would still be wrong.

    The difference between a T6X Legendary and a standard Fleet T6X are no where near enough to consider them an entirely different tier.
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  • saurializardsaurializard Member Posts: 4,243 Arc User
    reyan01 wrote: »
    Stupid really. The Phoenix Store has the potential to be one of, if not the, best dilithium sinks at their disposal.
    However, this isn't how you realize that potential.

    Also "we've improved the drop rate" is meaningless when you refuse to divulge the odds. I'm guessing the chance for an Epic token hasn't changed though, since those need to remain as rare as rocking-horse poo so they can justify having them in their sleazy Mudd bundles.
    Well, to be fair, this announcement did cause a significant one-time drain in my dil supply, just so I can get unaltered phoenix upgrades.

    Purely for collector's mindset, Cryptic. I CLEARLY have ZERO intent to use those hundreds of upgrades, because it's totally not like those upgrades were a big factor as to why people invested in those boxes.
    #TASforSTO
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  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,913 Arc User
    reyan01 wrote: »
    Stupid really. The Phoenix Store has the potential to be one of, if not the, best dilithium sinks at their disposal.
    However, this isn't how you realize that potential.

    Also "we've improved the drop rate" is meaningless when you refuse to divulge the odds. I'm guessing the chance for an Epic token hasn't changed though, since those need to remain as rare as rocking-horse poo so they can justify having them in their sleazy Mudd bundles.
    Well, to be fair, this announcement did cause a significant one-time drain in my dil supply, just so I can get unaltered phoenix upgrades.

    Purely for collector's mindset, Cryptic. I CLEARLY have ZERO intent to use those hundreds of upgrades, because it's totally not like those upgrades were a big factor as to why people invested in those boxes.

    Same here, I bought like 900 of em and I already have everything at max quality on all 10 of my characters. Dilithium is just that worthless to me, I spent probably close to 2M Dilithium and I don't even notice it gone.

    They still have a long way to go. :lol:
    animated.gif
    Discovery is good, it's you that sucks.
  • husanakxhusanakx Member Posts: 1,273 Arc User
    westmetals wrote: »
    husanakx wrote: »
    So let me guess, there'll be a better upgrade token coming soon in the Infinity Lockox?.........

    They already include ultimate upgrades with almost every T7 ship. I mean legendary ship pack.

    I cannot believe this needs to be said once again, but...

    Legendary is not T7. Combat wise, (in terms of quantity of console slots and BOFF slots) they are no better than fleet-T6. No new combat mechanics. They just come with extra purchase perks (extra skins, consoles, traits, including one account-wide trait).

    Legendary vanguard
    54000 base hull
    2 Universal Lt. Cmd seats (other differences aside)
    5/2 weapons
    Full pilot
    Wingman Mechanic

    Jem H Strike Ship (Promo)
    51750
    1 Universal LT. Cmd 1 Lt Universal
    4/3 weapons
    Dual spec but no commander

    The most recent example of your assertion being wrong. Legendary is just T7 without using the name. Prove me wrong find an example of the legendary not being a +1 in a major way and I'll agree with you. Cryptic for years have resold us the same ships over and over... increasing the tier, adding fleet versions, adding Xs. They can say legendary if they like but ya they have simply realized t7 would be unpopular from a marketing angle... and figured hey 90% of our sales are these here hero ships lets just +1 them and use a different name.

    I'm not even complaining I own most of the packs... I just smell marketing spin when I see it. :)
  • capta1nh0wdycapta1nh0wdy Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    Agreed.
  • sthe91sthe91 Member Posts: 4,244 Arc User
    > @corinthalas said:
    > They said they're not being removed from the game, just being made available (at some later date, so don't hold your breath) by some other means more appropriate for ships their age.

    My point still stands they are being removed from the Phoenix box. They should have waited until the other way to get them was finalized and then do this change. I wanted that Tier 5 Risian Corvette for my main and for the Admiralty card.
    Where there is a Will, there is a Way.
  • paddy#3322 paddy Member Posts: 195 Arc User
    Making a bold statement claiming that we're increasing our drop rates, but the actual drop rates aren't listed, to me anyway is suspect. Removing the T-5U ships is never a good thing but if they make them available for purchase somewhere else this will mitigate this issue. Also adding more ships in their place would be nice. Obviously adding more items into the prize packs would be beneficial even though many of us always seem to have everything that they add in; still it's good for the new folks.

    The big issue for me is the nerfing of the Phoenix pack upgrades. Yes, I read the blog post and am still not a fan. I picked up a hundred or so of the upgrades that I'll keep in the account bank for future alts.
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  • qultuqqultuq Member Posts: 792 Arc User
    I was hoping to find more information about this. If the odds for rare and ultra-rare tokens is better. You may end up with roughly the same results. Like maybe before you averaged 12 tech upgrades per 40,000 dilithium but now you average 16… the new upgrades are only 1/5 less effective so if you get 10% more upgrades under the new system it may not affect you much.

    I guess we will find out after the patch.
  • stark2kstark2k Member Posts: 1,455 Arc User
    Want to point out the last sentence from the following paragraph -

    "We have decided to retire all of the Tier-5 Starships currently available at the Ultra-Rare Prize Tier.

    With only one exception, these starships all have already received updated variants at Tier-6 that are available in various places throughout the game, and should therefore have been retired some time ago. Their inclusion at such a high prize tier was also misleading toward less-established players, regarding their relative value to the modern era of starships.

    We are interested in the possibility of making these ships available by other means at some point in time. We can’t promise anything right now, but never say never."

    What that actually means, they will never be released - and will be entirely forgotten as they have previously stated similar statements and never followed through. So anyone still getting their hopes up in acquiring these prize token ships by any means - FORGET about it, they will never remember to bring them back by whatever means possible.

    This entire move is simply to alienate the newer playersbase, and to attempt to dry up the surplus of dilithium that is out there. It is still unknown how much raw and refine dilithium is currently ingame among the playerbase.
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  • stark2kstark2k Member Posts: 1,455 Arc User
    miirik wrote: »
    But wait a minute, the Voth Dreadnought does not have a T6 equivalent, and I been trying to get one for some time. So what happens with that?

    Pray that we do not alter the deal any further - Cryptic


    We are interested in the possibility of making these ships available by other means at some point in time. We can’t promise anything right now, but never say never.

    I seriously believe that those former T5 ships are entirely lost and forgotten - WORST case senerio, that particular Voth ship will end up in the MUDD store at an incredible and awful price. I honestly will say, don't hold your breathe.

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  • keepcalmchiveonkeepcalmchiveon Member Posts: 4,210 Arc User
    stark2k wrote: »
    I seriously believe that those former T5 ships are entirely lost and forgotten - WORST case senerio, that particular Voth ship will end up in the MUDD store at an incredible and awful price. I honestly will say, don't hold your breathe.

    this is what kinda grinds me too. placing, eventually, all ships within mudds. it seems to be the grand vision since the game is nothing but ships anymore, and how many one can obtain. but fear not...mudd will certainly enjoy handling the sales of all ship for the galaxy at large.
    meh

  • corinthalascorinthalas Member Posts: 2,186 Arc User
    stark2k wrote: »
    miirik wrote: »
    But wait a minute, the Voth Dreadnought does not have a T6 equivalent, and I been trying to get one for some time. So what happens with that?

    Pray that we do not alter the deal any further - Cryptic


    We are interested in the possibility of making these ships available by other means at some point in time. We can’t promise anything right now, but never say never.

    I seriously believe that those former T5 ships are entirely lost and forgotten - WORST case senerio, that particular Voth ship will end up in the MUDD store at an incredible and awful price. I honestly will say, don't hold your breathe.

    Or they could add them to the T5 infinity ship box. That's pretty simple, and those boxes are fairly abundant.
  • husanakxhusanakx Member Posts: 1,273 Arc User
    Well they did just add one old ship that was in Mudd to Phoenix. One of the better sci ships in fact.
    I just hope Cryptic doesn't slow the pace of adding things to Phoenix. There is no reason they can't have almost every ship in Mudds in Phoenix as well. They make $ either way. Mudds is just a much more expensive account unlock. They where also all free event ships anyway.

    If they really want to drive sales... all they have do do is add rotating ships. As an example right now they just mudded the weather control ship. Why not at the exact same time put it in Phoenix for a week or two promo. Add it to Phoenix... then remove it. Add it permanently a year later.
  • doctorstegidoctorstegi Member Posts: 960 Arc User
    You could say that a Legendary Ship with experimental upgrade token is a T7 ship.

    You can, sure. But you would still be wrong.

    The difference between a T6X Legendary and a standard Fleet T6X are no where near enough to consider them an entirely different tier.

    Yeah because its not a T7. That doesn't change the fact that each Legendary ship is a stronger performer then the Fleet Version of it. How much better is obviously a matter on what you can make out of it.


    C-Store Inc. is still looking for active members on the fed side. If you don't have a fleet feel free to contact me in game @stegi.
  • roninwolf1981#2968 roninwolf1981 Member Posts: 328 Arc User
    stark2k wrote: »
    miirik wrote: »
    But wait a minute, the Voth Dreadnought does not have a T6 equivalent, and I been trying to get one for some time. So what happens with that?

    Pray that we do not alter the deal any further - Cryptic


    We are interested in the possibility of making these ships available by other means at some point in time. We can’t promise anything right now, but never say never.

    I seriously believe that those former T5 ships are entirely lost and forgotten - WORST case senerio, that particular Voth ship will end up in the MUDD store at an incredible and awful price. I honestly will say, don't hold your breathe.

    Or they could add them to the T5 infinity ship box. That's pretty simple, and those boxes are fairly abundant.

    Wait, isn't there a law regarding lockboxes?
  • keepcalmchiveonkeepcalmchiveon Member Posts: 4,210 Arc User
    edited May 5
    stark2k wrote: »
    miirik wrote: »
    But wait a minute, the Voth Dreadnought does not have a T6 equivalent, and I been trying to get one for some time. So what happens with that?

    Pray that we do not alter the deal any further - Cryptic


    We are interested in the possibility of making these ships available by other means at some point in time. We can’t promise anything right now, but never say never.

    I seriously believe that those former T5 ships are entirely lost and forgotten - WORST case senerio, that particular Voth ship will end up in the MUDD store at an incredible and awful price. I honestly will say, don't hold your breathe.

    Or they could add them to the T5 infinity ship box. That's pretty simple, and those boxes are fairly abundant.

    Wait, isn't there a law regarding lockboxes?

    a law? no. not in the US at least. while it could be called gambling in simple terms, i am certain the attorneys have worded it different so as to avoid the term gambling.

    (note: i am not 100% certain about this as i have never seen any such article discussing a law about lockboxes - however, if there is, please chime in...)
    meh

  • doctorstegidoctorstegi Member Posts: 960 Arc User
    westmetals wrote: »
    You could say that a Legendary Ship with experimental upgrade token is a T7 ship.

    You can, sure. But you would still be wrong.

    The difference between a T6X Legendary and a standard Fleet T6X are no where near enough to consider them an entirely different tier.

    Yeah because its not a T7. That doesn't change the fact that each Legendary ship is a stronger performer then the Fleet Version of it. How much better is obviously a matter on what you can make out of it.


    Fleet version of itself, yes, in many cases. But that is not what I said.

    What I said is that they are not qualitatively different/superior from fleet-T6 ships in general. And that is true.

    For example... while yes the Defiant was changed from a 4/3/X escort build to a 5/3 warship build, there are other (non-Legendary) ships with the 5/3 warship build.

    Either you see the entire performance of a ship or you don't I don't do apples and oranges. There is no ship like the Warship Defiant with Pilot Maneuvering 5/3. In fact there is only the Undine Cheirax Bio-Warship what has the name Warship and has full Pilot Maneuvering.

    But I'm going to stop here because it has nothing to do with the topic at hand and do not want to hijack the this thread. Also our values in regards of starship is fundamentally different so I don't think there will be a conclusion to this. And you can tell me 50 more times how I'm wrong but honestly I'm only wrong in your opinion and you have yet to say anything what would convince me otherwise.

    C-Store Inc. is still looking for active members on the fed side. If you don't have a fleet feel free to contact me in game @stegi.
  • vanhyovanhyo Member Posts: 179 Arc User
    edited May 7
    my few thoughts:
    - single new ship+leeta is supposed to make us happy ? I am not entirely convinced the hottie is worth a bridge slot.
    - before the patch i could afford 4x tokens, now i can get only one, its clearly a loss for me, not that i need tokens, i was saving my purples for batter times but it seems like the "better times" ate them
    - the new upgrades doesn't make them "the best" but it adds a question mark, so i hesitate which ones are actually better.
    Post edited by vanhyo on
  • doctorstegidoctorstegi Member Posts: 960 Arc User
    Back to topic I got from my 10 Free boxes and 1 Free box

    6 rare ones 3 very rare and 2 Ultra Rare Tokens. So I guess the Ultra Rare x 5 for an experimental Ship upgrade isn't as bad as I thought it may be.
    C-Store Inc. is still looking for active members on the fed side. If you don't have a fleet feel free to contact me in game @stegi.
  • roninwolf1981#2968 roninwolf1981 Member Posts: 328 Arc User
    stark2k wrote: »
    miirik wrote: »
    But wait a minute, the Voth Dreadnought does not have a T6 equivalent, and I been trying to get one for some time. So what happens with that?

    Pray that we do not alter the deal any further - Cryptic


    We are interested in the possibility of making these ships available by other means at some point in time. We can’t promise anything right now, but never say never.

    I seriously believe that those former T5 ships are entirely lost and forgotten - WORST case senerio, that particular Voth ship will end up in the MUDD store at an incredible and awful price. I honestly will say, don't hold your breathe.

    Or they could add them to the T5 infinity ship box. That's pretty simple, and those boxes are fairly abundant.

    Wait, isn't there a law regarding lockboxes?

    a law? no. not in the US at least. while it could be called gambling in simple terms, i am certain the attorneys have worded it different so as to avoid the term gambling.

    (note: i am not 100% certain about this as i have never seen any such article discussing a law about lockboxes - however, if there is, please chime in...)

    According to ScreenRant, Japan is the first country that established a law against lootboxes.

    As far as I can tell, the legality of loot boxes is muddy and unclear. Here in the United States, nothing yet has been done because lawmakers are relative neanderthals and not up to the task to do anything about something so incredibly advanced as Loot Boxes.
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