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Another Mudd Bundle?

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  • reyan01reyan01 Member Posts: 15,534 Arc User
    To be honest, I'm just really tired of all this. It really feels like the only time there is any news regarding STO its about something new to buy (more often than not its another expensive bundle) or yet another daisy-chained event that expect us to replay recycled content with a new FOMO unlock.

    It just feels like the people calling the shots are only interested in me paying rather than playing, and I find it truly tiresome.
  • fleetcaptain5#1134 fleetcaptain5 Member Posts: 3,302 Arc User
    reyan01 wrote: »
    To be honest, I'm just really tired of all this. It really feels like the only time there is any news regarding STO its about something new to buy (more often than not its another expensive bundle) or yet another daisy-chained event that expect us to replay recycled content with a new FOMO unlock.

    It just feels like the people calling the shots are only interested in me paying rather than playing, and I find it truly tiresome.

    I can't disagree with this.

    I don't mind them releasing new packs - although the prices are ludicrous. But it shouldn't be the only thing besides yet another daily-log-in-event that's announced. They can add all the expensive packs they want, but expanding and maintaining the game should be more than expanding and maintaining the in-game store.

    If they cannot produce more or more diverse content or do so more often, they need to invest more resources and hire more Devs.


    Just to be clear:

    'They' being the upper management of PWE or whoever decides on those things. I'm in no way holding responsible the current Devs themselves who are probably just as disappointed that many of their colleagues were laid off because of a failed experiment with another game.

    Or CBS needs to do something - but of course we know that they're all too happy to just sit on the IP and wait for opportunities to come to them instead of seeking them out themselves.
    [4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother

    [3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
  • reyan01reyan01 Member Posts: 15,534 Arc User
    edited December 2021
    reyan01 wrote: »
    To be honest, I'm just really tired of all this. It really feels like the only time there is any news regarding STO its about something new to buy (more often than not its another expensive bundle) or yet another daisy-chained event that expect us to replay recycled content with a new FOMO unlock.

    It just feels like the people calling the shots are only interested in me paying rather than playing, and I find it truly tiresome.

    I can't disagree with this.

    I don't mind them releasing new packs - although the prices are ludicrous. But it shouldn't be the only thing besides yet another daily-log-in-event that's announced. They can add all the expensive packs they want, but expanding and maintaining the game should be more than expanding and maintaining the in-game store.

    If they cannot produce more or more diverse content or do so more often, they need to invest more resources and hire more Devs.


    Just to be clear:

    'They' being the upper management of PWE or whoever decides on those things. I'm in no way holding responsible the current Devs themselves who are probably just as disappointed that many of their colleagues were laid off because of a failed experiment with another game.

    Or CBS needs to do something - but of course we know that they're all too happy to just sit on the IP and wait for opportunities to come to them instead of seeking them out themselves.

    I've stated this opinion before but, to me, it feels like STO is in a strange place - one where it is just successful enough to float above life support but where neither parent companies (Paramount/CBS and PWE) are motivated to invest anything more than is absolutely necessary into it, hence their only avenue for making money is churning out expensive bundles and prizebox content and running back-to-back FOMO fueled events to keep log-in metrics reasonably high. Even just having a player log on for 15 minutes to play a quick event TFO before logging out pads their metrics with "consistent" player numbers.
  • naabal421#0722 naabal421 Member Posts: 162 Arc User
    reyan01 wrote: »
    I've stated this opinion before but, to me, it feels like STO is in a strange place - one where it is just successful enough to float above life support but where neither parent companies (Paramount/CBS and PWE) are motivated to invest anything more than is absolutely necessary into it, hence their only avenue for making money is churning out expensive bundles and prizebox content and running back-to-back FOMO fueled events to keep log-in metrics reasonably high. Even just having a player log on for 15 minutes to play a quick event TFO before logging out pads their metrics with "consistent" player numbers.
    I can't really say I agree with this.

    A game that is just floating above life support, and that isn't getting enough money to do anything but what is absolutely necessary, wouldn't be getting the money to do things like the Year of Klingon revamps, or the TOS arc revamp, or the current Fed interior/ship revamp. None of those were really necessary. The game has gone without updates to those things for years, with no real issue, yet they chose to invest a lot of money into doing it. The same thing with VAs. If they weren't getting money they wouldn't be getting Leeta, Martok, Gowron, L'rell, and would be falling back more on the tier 2 VAs like Shon, or Koren, or justu sing BOFFs for a lot of the dialogue since those don't require VAs.
  • alcyoneserenealcyoneserene Member Posts: 2,412 Arc User
    An MMO needs both paying customers and lots of players even if they remain F2P. Swinging it either way too much will only cut it short.

    About the bundle, I've always liked the Sheshar's looks and stats (minus that fixed engi cmd), and was surprised by how nice the S31 Sci destroyer looks even when transformed but not its trait since being cloaked while still firing everything with very little downtime to me isn't exciting gameplay despite how much I enjoy cloaks. Not getting it however, I have no need for those 2 account-wide.
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  • leemwatsonleemwatson Member Posts: 4,643 Arc User
    reyan01 wrote: »
    I've stated this opinion before but, to me, it feels like STO is in a strange place - one where it is just successful enough to float above life support but where neither parent companies (Paramount/CBS and PWE) are motivated to invest anything more than is absolutely necessary into it, hence their only avenue for making money is churning out expensive bundles and prizebox content and running back-to-back FOMO fueled events to keep log-in metrics reasonably high. Even just having a player log on for 15 minutes to play a quick event TFO before logging out pads their metrics with "consistent" player numbers.
    I can't really say I agree with this.

    A game that is just floating above life support, and that isn't getting enough money to do anything but what is absolutely necessary, wouldn't be getting the money to do things like the Year of Klingon revamps, or the TOS arc revamp, or the current Fed interior/ship revamp. None of those were really necessary. The game has gone without updates to those things for years, with no real issue, yet they chose to invest a lot of money into doing it. The same thing with VAs. If they weren't getting money they wouldn't be getting Leeta, Martok, Gowron, L'rell, and would be falling back more on the tier 2 VAs like Shon, or Koren, or justu sing BOFFs for a lot of the dialogue since those don't require VAs.

    Agreed. STO is clearly nowhere near life-support. Dev's have stated time and again that the new episodes take longer to make because of the higher quality they, and we players expect. However, they are still pumping out a good number of episodes per year, above that of what happened in the early years of the game.

    The 'lack of content' and 'they need to focus more on bug-fixing' rhetoric needs to stop, because it's plainly not true. Kael will generally give updates on some bugs, but with next year's Minimum Req's being updated, it's clear they are planning a big engine update (or may have even completed), which is what players have been calling for for a long time.
    "You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
  • reyan01reyan01 Member Posts: 15,534 Arc User
    edited December 2021
    leemwatson wrote: »
    reyan01 wrote: »
    I've stated this opinion before but, to me, it feels like STO is in a strange place - one where it is just successful enough to float above life support but where neither parent companies (Paramount/CBS and PWE) are motivated to invest anything more than is absolutely necessary into it, hence their only avenue for making money is churning out expensive bundles and prizebox content and running back-to-back FOMO fueled events to keep log-in metrics reasonably high. Even just having a player log on for 15 minutes to play a quick event TFO before logging out pads their metrics with "consistent" player numbers.
    I can't really say I agree with this.

    A game that is just floating above life support, and that isn't getting enough money to do anything but what is absolutely necessary, wouldn't be getting the money to do things like the Year of Klingon revamps, or the TOS arc revamp, or the current Fed interior/ship revamp. None of those were really necessary. The game has gone without updates to those things for years, with no real issue, yet they chose to invest a lot of money into doing it. The same thing with VAs. If they weren't getting money they wouldn't be getting Leeta, Martok, Gowron, L'rell, and would be falling back more on the tier 2 VAs like Shon, or Koren, or justu sing BOFFs for a lot of the dialogue since those don't require VAs.

    Agreed. STO is clearly nowhere near life-support. Dev's have stated time and again that the new episodes take longer to make because of the higher quality they, and we players expect. However, they are still pumping out a good number of episodes per year, above that of what happened in the early years of the game.

    The 'lack of content' and 'they need to focus more on bug-fixing' rhetoric needs to stop, because it's plainly not true. Kael will generally give updates on some bugs, but with next year's Minimum Req's being updated, it's clear they are planning a big engine update (or may have even completed), which is what players have been calling for for a long time.

    To be honest it's kind of silly that this has to be pointed out, but PR announcements by mouthpieces with legal and/or employment obligations to say good things about the company are not a reliable source of factual data about how well any given business decision has played out.
  • nommo#5819 nommo Member Posts: 1,105 Arc User
    If you're looking at this bundle to boost your torp boat.. buy with caution.

    It's entirely possible that this will be a final cash grab before a round of nerfs to Torp Boats.

    Can't say for sure, but it's not unheard of for Cryptic to sell as much of a powerful item as possible only to nerf it once the sale is over. Buyer beware.

    reyan01 wrote: »
    To be honest, I'm just really tired of all this. It really feels like the only time there is any news regarding STO its about something new to buy (more often than not its another expensive bundle) or yet another daisy-chained event that expect us to replay recycled content with a new FOMO unlock.

    It just feels like the people calling the shots are only interested in me paying rather than playing, and I find it truly tiresome.

    Oh dang, valid speculation & points made. Not really delving into torp builds much I hadn't thought of that & it does happen. I don't think this is a terrible Mudd's bundle as far as they go, but seems suspect since so close to the last Mudd's bundle release.

    All the mostly gambling & big-ticket buying options is draining. I'll acknowledge though that recently, at least for a spurt, Cryptic has offered some regular C-Store options, but alas it's mostly if not all "buy this & that" instead of additional playable content imo. & imo there's clearly more emphasis on selling of stuff than creating additional content for STO. As a side note I wonder if there's been any headway with the whole dilithium exchange economy conundrum?
  • keepcalmchiveonkeepcalmchiveon Member Posts: 4,133 Arc User
    i am with a lot of comments made for one reason or another.

    it is the holiday, and well, they need to make money. i cant knock them for putting out 2 sales for mudds prior to Christmas.

    and while i bash cryptic a lot, we have no confirmation that any new content, is not in the works. feels like there is not, but thats all it is.

    we all have voiced opinions regarding fixing bugs, new content, and so on and so forth, with little to no feedback, so i think we shouldnt expect much from this either.

    and given that cbs has ventured into another Trek game, while not an MMO, it begs to see what direction they will put money into.
    meh

  • darknovasc01darknovasc01 Member Posts: 145 Arc User
    leemwatson wrote: »
    The 'lack of content' and 'they need to focus more on bug-fixing' rhetoric needs to stop, because it's plainly not true. Kael will generally give updates on some bugs, but with next year's Minimum Req's being updated, it's clear they are planning a big engine update (or may have even completed), which is what players have been calling for for a long time.

    What is far more likely is they simply no longer have the resources to spare supporting such an old OS now that Windows 10 is dominant amongst gamers (I refer you to the removal of Mac support) - expecting major engine updates with the small development team left for this game, this late in its history and without anything near the playerbase of the larger MMOs or even what it once had is optimism of the highest order.

    The cynic in me also feels like this bundle, especially so close to the last one and at Christmas to boot, is the latest in an accelerating trend from PWE to try and squeeze as much cash out of this game as possible, rather than looking to the game's long term health.
  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,548 Arc User
    These Mudd Bundles and Legendary Bundles seems like Cryptic is double dipping for their premium ships. We have the initial release for a bound to character ship from gambling and then we have the Mudd and Legendary Bundles for those that are not willing to gamble or for players that think they are getting a good deal.

    Also, don't forget that we are likely getting a 2022 Anniversary Legendary Bundle in less than 2 months.
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,913 Arc User
    edited December 2021
    reyan01 wrote: »
    I've stated this opinion before but, to me, it feels like STO is in a strange place - one where it is just successful enough to float above life support but where neither parent companies (Paramount/CBS and PWE) are motivated to invest anything more than is absolutely necessary into it, hence their only avenue for making money is churning out expensive bundles and prizebox content and running back-to-back FOMO fueled events to keep log-in metrics reasonably high. Even just having a player log on for 15 minutes to play a quick event TFO before logging out pads their metrics with "consistent" player numbers.
    I can't really say I agree with this.

    A game that is just floating above life support, and that isn't getting enough money to do anything but what is absolutely necessary, wouldn't be getting the money to do things like the Year of Klingon revamps, or the TOS arc revamp, or the current Fed interior/ship revamp. None of those were really necessary. The game has gone without updates to those things for years, with no real issue, yet they chose to invest a lot of money into doing it. The same thing with VAs. If they weren't getting money they wouldn't be getting Leeta, Martok, Gowron, L'rell, and would be falling back more on the tier 2 VAs like Shon, or Koren, or justu sing BOFFs for a lot of the dialogue since those don't require VAs.

    With respect, I think you are misunderstanding what @reyan01 was saying.

    He is not saying the game is in what MMO's refer to as 'Maintenance Mode.' That is the condition where the game receives only minimal support to stay online but does not receive things like regular updates, bug fixes, or any new content. I can guarantee you that Reyan is well aware that STO is not in 'Maintenance Mode,' I don't think anyone is making that claim.

    What he is saying, and I for one agree, is that STO is in a strange place in between 'Maintenance Mode' and a fully successful MMO. The game is still getting regular story updates and is absolutely what MMO players would consider 'alive.' The issue is the games core focus, which clearly has shifted in recent years from regular content updates to monetization. The game does get updates, it does get bug fixes, and it is 'alive,' but it's clear that the top priority is finding ways to squeeze every last possible dollar. While we constantly hear about how STO is 'more successful now then it's ever been,' what we don't see is the Publisher (PWI) putting those resources back into the developer (Cryptic Studios.) The game, despite it's financial success, is still run by a very small and very over burdened team. They do not seem to be expanding the staff or putting the bulk of this success into growing the game, instead they are more focused on 'keeping it steady' and monetizing the living snot out of it on the way.

    It is a strange business model to have a product that is generating profit at a steady stream but having no interest in expanding or further developing that product. If the success we are hearing about is so abundant, then why would they not want to continue to expand the studio and grow the IP? Instead of getting more help to push out story content or game updates we instead get a constant barrage of 'here is another several hundred dollar pack for you to buy.' We all realize that we don't have eyes inside the company, so perception from the outside looking in could be deeply flawed, but the perception that the games primary updates are all bloated 'whale bundles' is highly understandable.
    leemwatson wrote: »
    but with next year's Minimum Req's being updated, it's clear they are planning a big engine update

    If you changed 'it's clear' to 'we hope they are' then and only then would this statement even have a shred of truth. While this would be nice, and is hopefully right, it's nothing but pure speculation without a shred of actual proof. The Minimum requirements change could be nothing more then them simply not wanting to continue to support older systems keeping things as 'lean' as possible.

    Your hope that it means an engine upgrade is just that.. 'hope.'
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  • wraithshadow13wraithshadow13 Member Posts: 1,664 Arc User
    I wished they would put half the effort in fixing the game...

    It *would* be nice.

    I get that the game needs money, as Kael is all too quick to point out, but considering the outrageous cost of a lot of this stuff, and the still overly priced everything else, it seems like they could cut prices in half and make all ships account wide, and that would go a lot further than constantly regurgitating the same thing over and over and over, with a slight difference. Lotto boxes, R&D ships, Phoenix boxes, mudd packs, etc.


    If you're selling 100 packs at $600, you're making $60.000. If you're selling that same thing at $100, you're more likely to sell 6000, making $600.000. Not to mention that people will be more likely to buy from a business with GOOD reputation, than a company with a less than positive reputation.

    There's an actual psychology to sales and selling, and it's completely ridiculous but it works. Unfortunately, Cryptic has to go the opposite way and use the more predatory lotto boxes, gambling mechanics, and constant sales, rather than effective business tactics. I don't know if it's intentionally ironic or not that they use Mudd and the Ferengi for their terrible money making tactics.


    It fits, though...


    Considering how broken this game can be, and how little we're actually getting out of a lot of the store stuff, it really makes me think they're getting told what to do by PWE, rather than sitting around and discussing this in the offices at Cryptic.



    I GET that the game NEEDS to make money but there are better ways to go about it and the forums will gladly tell you what they want and how much they're willing to pay for it. I think Cryptic should start an official Thread in the forums just to discuss the Cash shop in their games, both here AND the other two.


    Questions like:

    -Cost vs Value of current items

    -New items players want to see

    -What they refuse to buy and why

    -What they can do to make unpopular items more appealing

    -Services to add

    -Ideas for consumables

    -Removing Dil/Zen exchange for lower prices


    For me, personally, there is nothing in this game that is worth more than the cost of the game when it launched. I know it's FREE to play NOW but when it first launched, people paid the normal PC game prices. People PAID monthly for a membership that really didn't seem worth it to me. Currently, knowing how things have changed, 90% of that store still seems overpriced. I would have bought ALL the inventory slots if they were 100z for 10. No way am i paying $1 for a single VIRTUAL inventory slot. That's ridiculous. I'm not paying $30 for a ship that is just going to be redone for another $30 down the line. If they were $10 for a single ship or $30 for the full three ship bundle? Instant buy.


    IF this game had considerable less problems, every time i play? I would be more willing to overlook the bad monetization. It would still be way too overpriced for what i think it's worth but it would be more barrable if Cryptic could keep it running without issues every time i log in.
  • naabal421#0722 naabal421 Member Posts: 162 Arc User
    edited December 2021
    If you're selling 100 packs at $600, you're making $60.000. If you're selling that same thing at $100, you're more likely to sell 6000, making $600.000. Not to mention that people will be more likely to buy from a business with GOOD reputation, than a company with a less than positive reputation.
    This isn't how sales works though? If it was, everything would be dirt cheap because lower cost would = more sales.

    All you have to do is look at convenience stores to see otherwise. They massively up-charge everything, but people are more likely to go there then the actual grocery store to get various snacks and such because its easier. The same is true of things like service provider bundles. People quite often go for the more expensive multi-service bundle, when they originally just wanted phone service or w/e, because its more convenient to pay more now for more services, then it is to call back later and get separate plans for each one.

    This also assumes your target base is everyone playing the game, when it isn't. Many people will never buy anything from the Zen store, regardless of how its priced. So you can't really factor them into your market. If your market is 1,000 people, you set the price of your bundle at $600, and 80% of your market is OK with that, then you will be making $480,000 from the 800 people willing to buy it. If you set that price down to $100 to get that other 20% of the market, and all of them buy into that new price, you are then making $80,000 from those 1,000 sales. You would be making 6 times less in that scenario.

    Not to mention Mudd's Market is not only cheaper then pulling these ships from lockboxes, as many people have shown before, but they are account wide. Especially when on sale, which is the only time you're supposed to be buying things off of Mudds, the price of a Mudd's bundle is like 50% the cost of pulling these ships from lockboxes.
  • fleetcaptain5#1134 fleetcaptain5 Member Posts: 3,302 Arc User
    reyan01 wrote: »
    I've stated this opinion before but, to me, it feels like STO is in a strange place - one where it is just successful enough to float above life support but where neither parent companies (Paramount/CBS and PWE) are motivated to invest anything more than is absolutely necessary into it, hence their only avenue for making money is churning out expensive bundles and prizebox content and running back-to-back FOMO fueled events to keep log-in metrics reasonably high. Even just having a player log on for 15 minutes to play a quick event TFO before logging out pads their metrics with "consistent" player numbers.
    I can't really say I agree with this.

    A game that is just floating above life support, and that isn't getting enough money to do anything but what is absolutely necessary, wouldn't be getting the money to do things like the Year of Klingon revamps, or the TOS arc revamp, or the current Fed interior/ship revamp. None of those were really necessary. The game has gone without updates to those things for years, with no real issue, yet they chose to invest a lot of money into doing it. The same thing with VAs. If they weren't getting money they wouldn't be getting Leeta, Martok, Gowron, L'rell, and would be falling back more on the tier 2 VAs like Shon, or Koren, or justu sing BOFFs for a lot of the dialogue since those don't require VAs.

    With respect, I think you are misunderstanding what @reyan01 was saying.

    He is not saying the game is in what MMO's refer to as 'Maintenance Mode.' That is the condition where the game receives only minimal support to stay online but does not receive things like regular updates, bug fixes, or any new content. I can guarantee you that Reyan is well aware that STO is not in 'Maintenance Mode,' I don't think anyone is making that claim.

    What he is saying, and I for one agree, is that STO is in a strange place in between 'Maintenance Mode' and a fully successful MMO. The game is still getting regular story updates and is absolutely what MMO players would consider 'alive.' The issue is the games core focus, which clearly has shifted in recent years from regular content updates to monetization. The game does get updates, it does get bug fixes, and it is 'alive,' but it's clear that the top priority is finding ways to squeeze every last possible dollar. While we constantly hear about how STO is 'more successful now then it's ever been,' what we don't see is the Publisher (PWI) putting those resources back into the developer (Cryptic Studios.) The game, despite it's financial success, is still run by a very small and very over burdened team. They do not seem to be expanding the staff or putting the bulk of this success into growing the game, instead they are more focused on 'keeping it steady' and monetizing the living snot out of it on the way.

    It is a strange business model to have a product that is generating profit at a steady stream but having no interest in expanding or further developing that product. If the success we are hearing about is so abundant, then why would they not want to continue to expand the studio and grow the IP? Instead of getting more help to push out story content or game updates we instead get a constant barrage of 'here is another several hundred dollar pack for you to buy.' We all realize that we don't have eyes inside the company, so perception from the outside looking in could be deeply flawed, but the perception that the games primary updates are all bloated 'whale bundles' is highly understandable.

    My thoughts exactly.

    And besides the adding of ever more expensive packs, there's also re-releasing the same ships through other means and adding tokens to get people to spend multiple times on the same ship.

    I think those things also show that actual development of the game (and investment required for that) isn't a priority.
    And that would be problematic enough from a business perspective indeed. But trying to rake in ever larger sums through whatever means necessary while seemingly not being prepared to actually re-invest those resources, is also at least suggestive of the game not being that far removed from maintenance mode anymore.
    [4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother

    [3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
  • fleetcaptain5#1134 fleetcaptain5 Member Posts: 3,302 Arc User
    If you're selling 100 packs at $600, you're making $60.000. If you're selling that same thing at $100, you're more likely to sell 6000, making $600.000. Not to mention that people will be more likely to buy from a business with GOOD reputation, than a company with a less than positive reputation.
    This isn't how sales works though? If it was, everything would be dirt cheap because lower cost would = more sales.

    All you have to do is look at convenience stores to see otherwise. They massively up-charge everything, but people are more likely to go there then the actual grocery store to get various snacks and such because its easier. The same is true of things like service provider bundles. People quite often go for the more expensive multi-service bundle, when they originally just wanted phone service or w/e, because its more convenient to pay more now for more services, then it is to call back later and get separate plans for each one.

    This also assumes your target base is everyone playing the game, when it isn't. Many people will never buy anything from the Zen store, regardless of how its priced. So you can't really factor them into your market. If your market is 1,000 people, you set the price of your bundle at $600, and 80% of your market is OK with that, then you will be making $480,000 from the 800 people willing to buy it. If you set that price down to $100 to get that other 20% of the market, and all of them buy into that new price, you are then making $80,000 from those 1,000 sales. You would be making 6 times less in that scenario.

    Not to mention Mudd's Market is not only cheaper then pulling these ships from lockboxes, as many people have shown before, but they are account wide. Especially when on sale, which is the only time you're supposed to be buying things off of Mudds, the price of a Mudd's bundle is like 50% the cost of pulling these ships from lockboxes.

    Which mostly shows that the prices of lockbox ships were ridiculous to begin with. Especially given the character-boundness limitations.

    At the very least they should start offering a way (even if that means paying a small fee) for people to make the ships account-wide usable if they've already paid those insanely high prices for a single ship before. Cryptic is basically admitting that those prices are no longer justified. And the product hasn't changed, most of these ships aren't even that old. So the prices were never justified then.
    [4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother

    [3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
  • naabal421#0722 naabal421 Member Posts: 162 Arc User
    edited December 2021
    Which mostly shows that the prices of lockbox ships were ridiculous to begin with. Especially given the character-boundness limitations.

    At the very least they should start offering a way (even if that means paying a small fee) for people to make the ships account-wide usable if they've already paid those insanely high prices for a single ship before. Cryptic is basically admitting that those prices are no longer justified. And the product hasn't changed, most of these ships aren't even that old. So the prices were never justified then.
    The fact that lockbox ships keep selling to this day, and have pretty much the same drop chance/key cost they did when lockboxes were introduced nearly 10 years ago, would indicate the target audience for these ships doesn't find the price too ridiculous. If they did, they wouldn't pay for it. The same goes for Mudd's packs. If the target audience found them too pricey they wouldn't be buying them at a rate that fulfills whatever metric Cryptic expects out of them. Which they use to justify making more at the same price.

    Saying that their prices were never justified then doesn't really follow either. Clothes that are considered "in style" can go for large sums of money. Then a few months later, after whats "in style" changes, those clothes can massively drop in price, but still be very expensive. The product hasn't changed, the clothes are still exactly the same product they were a few months ago, but them being a lesser price now doesn't mean they weren't worth the price they were then. The same is true of Mudd's packs. That the ships are a lesser price now, since they no longer are considered as "in style" as they were doesn't mean the price they were when they were first introduced wasn't justified. Things don't have to be that old to warrant a large price drop.

    Having a fee to make already owned ships account wide would be nice though.
  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 4,288 Arc User
    AAARRRR! Man the harpoons mateys! Its whale'n time again! :lol:
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,913 Arc User
    edited December 2021
    The fact that lockbox ships keep selling to this day, and have pretty much the same drop chance/key cost they did when lockboxes were introduced nearly 10 years ago, would indicate the target audience for these ships doesn't find the price too ridiculous. If they did, they wouldn't pay for it. The same goes for Mudd's packs. If the target audience found them too pricey they wouldn't be buying them at a rate that fulfills whatever metric Cryptic expects out of them. Which they use to justify making more at the same price.

    These are fair points, but they also underline a particularly concerning issue with the future of STO. The game seems to be sustaining itself on these 'whale bait' purchases. It's successful now, but how long will the Whales continue to pay like this? How long until the 'normal' or 'casual' player sees all these $300+ bundles and moves on to another game? When the casuals are gone, who do the Whales have to show off for? Whales are a small percentage of the MMO Player base and basing your soul existence on them alone is a dangerous concept. Yes, it's one that other MMO's also use, but that doesn't make it any less risky.

    A good idea would be to take the money they are raking in now, and use it to expand the studio to add more game content for the 'casual' player. Keep the normal players around, so the Whales have a reason to stay.. instead we're just content drips while we get hammered by these bundles and R&D promos. It's working now, but how much longer do you see this system being sustainable?

    Time will tell, but there is valid reason for concern.
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    Discovery is good, it's you that sucks.
  • reyan01reyan01 Member Posts: 15,534 Arc User
    edited December 2021
    The fact that lockbox ships keep selling to this day, and have pretty much the same drop chance/key cost they did when lockboxes were introduced nearly 10 years ago, would indicate the target audience for these ships doesn't find the price too ridiculous. If they did, they wouldn't pay for it. The same goes for Mudd's packs. If the target audience found them too pricey they wouldn't be buying them at a rate that fulfills whatever metric Cryptic expects out of them. Which they use to justify making more at the same price.

    These are fair points, but they also underline a particularly concerning issue with the future of STO. The game seems to be sustaining itself on these 'whale bait' purchases. It's successful now, but how long will the Whales continue to pay like this? How long until the 'normal' or 'casual' player sees all these $300+ bundles and moves on to another game? When the casuals are gone, who do the Whales have to show off for? Whales are a small percentage of the MMO Player base and basing your soul existence on them alone is a dangerous concept. Yes, it's one that other MMO's also use, but that doesn't make it any less risky.

    A good idea would be to take the money they are raking in now, and use it to expand the studio to add more game content for the 'casual' player. Keep the normal players around, so the Whales have a reason to stay.. instead we're just content drips while we get hammered by these bundles and R&D promos. It's working now, but how much longer do you see this system being sustainable?

    Time will tell, but there is valid reason for concern.

    As per usual, I find myself in agreement with you :)

    I can only really comment from my own perspective here, but I would say that I am/was probably a 'whale'. To be fair, I work for a living, in what can be a pretty damn thankless job, and what money is mine after all the essentials are catered for is for me to spend as I see fit. And with that in mind I don't really mind admitting that I own pretty much every ship I ever wanted in STO, whether it be a prize ship or otherwise.

    However, I'll repeat what I said in an earlier post: I'm just really tired of all this. It really feels like the only time there is any news regarding STO its about something new to buy (more often than not its another expensive bundle) or yet another daisy-chained event that expect us to replay recycled content with a new FOMO unlock.
    It just feels like the people calling the shots are only interested in me paying rather than playing, and I find it truly tiresome.

    A consequence of this is that I've been spending less in terms of both money AND time on STO and not even the fact that they finally gave us a T6 Nova has increased my enthusiasm much, partly because it felt as if their motivation to finally remaster the Nova had more to do with the fact that they were running out of canon ships to remaster and, at the time, the new TV series were not producing many new designs either.

    I find the aggressive monetization and over-reliance on FOMO fueled events/sales seriously off-putting and I really can see why so many friends who formerly considered STO to be their mainstay game (and I keep in touch with via Discord etc) dropped it in favor of FFXIV.

    If the success we are hearing about is so abundant, then why would they not want to continue to expand the studio and grow the IP?
    As said in another thread, PR announcements by mouthpieces with legal and/or employment obligations to say good things about the company are not a reliable source of factual data about how well any given business decision has played out.
    Post edited by reyan01 on
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,913 Arc User
    reyan01 wrote: »

    I can only really comment from my own perspective here, but I would say that I am/was probably a 'whale'. To be fair, I work for a living, in what can be a pretty damn thankless job, and what money is mine after all the essentials are catered for is for me to spend as I see fit. And with that in mind I don't really mind admitting that I own pretty much every ship I ever wanted in STO, whether it be a prize ship or otherwise.

    To be fair, I am probably in a similar boat. While I am not the type to drop $300 on a single in game transaction, if I go back and total everything I have spent since 2014, the amount would be far more then I would like to admit. :lol: I also have the majority of the ships in the C-Store, and honestly.. most of the more desirable promo ships as well. Many were bought with a combination of Dilithium exchange (back when that existed) and the difference made up in cash.

    I do want to say to anyone that sees themselves as a 'whale,' I have no problem with that.. none. People should spend their money in a way that makes them happy. If someone feels they are getting their moneys worth in entertainment from the game, then that's the only thing that matters.
    I find the aggressive monetization and over-reliance on FOMO fueled events/sales seriously off-putting and I really can see why so many friends who formerly considered STO to be their mainstay game (and I keep in touch with via Discord etc) dropped it in favor of FFXIV.

    Yeah, I am again in the same boat.. I am just burned out of doing the same loops over and over just getting one new story every few months.. it's just not enough to keep me engaged. Add on to that the constant FOMO events and these massive cash grab bundles and it's really soured my taste for STO and pushed me to other games.

    As said in another thread, PR announcements by mouthpieces with legal and/or employment obligations to say good things about the company are not a reliable source of factual data about how well any given business decision has played out.

    A fair point, and one I find myself in agreement with. At this point, if they tell me the sky is blue, I am going outside to verify for myself.
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    Discovery is good, it's you that sucks.
  • gaevsmangaevsman Member Posts: 3,181 Arc User
    reyan01 wrote: »

    I can only really comment from my own perspective here, but I would say that I am/was probably a 'whale'. To be fair, I work for a living, in what can be a pretty damn thankless job, and what money is mine after all the essentials are catered for is for me to spend as I see fit. And with that in mind I don't really mind admitting that I own pretty much every ship I ever wanted in STO, whether it be a prize ship or otherwise.

    To be fair, I am probably in a similar boat. While I am not the type to drop $300 on a single in game transaction, if I go back and total everything I have spent since 2014, the amount would be far more then I would like to admit. :lol: I also have the majority of the ships in the C-Store, and honestly.. most of the more desirable promo ships as well. Many were bought with a combination of Dilithium exchange (back when that existed) and the difference made up in cash.

    I do want to say to anyone that sees themselves as a 'whale,' I have no problem with that.. none. People should spend their money in a way that makes them happy. If someone feels they are getting their moneys worth in entertainment from the game, then that's the only thing that matters.
    I find the aggressive monetization and over-reliance on FOMO fueled events/sales seriously off-putting and I really can see why so many friends who formerly considered STO to be their mainstay game (and I keep in touch with via Discord etc) dropped it in favor of FFXIV.

    Yeah, I am again in the same boat.. I am just burned out of doing the same loops over and over just getting one new story every few months.. it's just not enough to keep me engaged. Add on to that the constant FOMO events and these massive cash grab bundles and it's really soured my taste for STO and pushed me to other games.

    As said in another thread, PR announcements by mouthpieces with legal and/or employment obligations to say good things about the company are not a reliable source of factual data about how well any given business decision has played out.

    A fair point, and one I find myself in agreement with. At this point, if they tell me the sky is blue, I am going outside to verify for myself.

    I could be considered a whale.. thou i dont like everything, i did buy every annivarsary bundle that i could and some of the Mudds bundle, like the Into the dar,ness one that i still think is great (if you buy it at launch, with the discount), ans a lot of promo boxes, but i have been particulary lucky on that respect, but i do agrre that the constant events have me tired, a lot, i just wish they were like in the old times, where you just continue the event with the nex one.. you didint finish this time?, well you can complete it the next one, an alos got the new one too if you want.
    The forces of darkness are upon us!
  • naabal421#0722 naabal421 Member Posts: 162 Arc User
    edited December 2021
    These are fair points, but they also underline a particularly concerning issue with the future of STO. The game seems to be sustaining itself on these 'whale bait' purchases. It's successful now, but how long will the Whales continue to pay like this? How long until the 'normal' or 'casual' player sees all these $300+ bundles and moves on to another game? When the casuals are gone, who do the Whales have to show off for? Whales are a small percentage of the MMO Player base and basing your soul existence on them alone is a dangerous concept. Yes, it's one that other MMO's also use, but that doesn't make it any less risky.

    A good idea would be to take the money they are raking in now, and use it to expand the studio to add more game content for the 'casual' player. Keep the normal players around, so the Whales have a reason to stay.. instead we're just content drips while we get hammered by these bundles and R&D promos. It's working now, but how much longer do you see this system being sustainable?

    Time will tell, but there is valid reason for concern.
    I think you're overlooking some underlying issues not just with STO, but with MMOs in general.

    Every MMO I've ever seen has had its devs talk about the issue that players can always consume content faster then its made. Even mighty titans like WoW, and ESO, go months, if not longer, between content drops. With some content drops in ESO being a pack of two dungeons that a lot of the playerbase doesn't care about. Same with WoW and new dungeons/raids. There is also another issue devs have to deal with of the user base saying there is "nothing to do" in an MMO that has been active for 7+ years. Obviously a game couldn't have gotten 7+ years in with nothing to do. The "nothing to do" comments stem from the fact older content has fallen out of favor due to aging mechanics, or poor rewards, which makes them unfavorable compared to new content which is designed, and rewards, better. Not that there is literally nothing to do.

    Simply adding new content doesn't really solve the issue, because any new content added will simply be the small sliver of content considered "playable" by the playerbase. They then immediately consume it, and go back to saying there is nothing to do. Its a tidal wave you can never stay in front of regardless of manpower or budget. At some point, once a MMO reaches a certain size, simply piling more content into the game isn't a viable solution to the issue of player retention. Though obviously new content has to be added every now and again, devs have to look toward making already existing content more consumable in the modern day.

    I've seen several claims that Cryptic isn't reinvesting the money they are getting from these sales into the game, but that really isn't true. The already mentioned revamps like the YoK, TOS, and Fed ship and interior revamps, as well as revamps to older TFOs and patrols, new systems like personal endeavors and RTFOs, and changes to events and patrols, are all the definition of reinvestment. STO didn't have these things previously, and didn't really need to have them to keep going, but Cryptic spent the time, and money, to do these optional things regardless. All of these are content sustainability measures to make much of the game's older content more viable, and give people more things they can do. Rather then just be stuck only in the "newest thing", which is never more then a small sliver of the game's total content.

    Another thing to consider about that. I've read that Cryptic mentioned that revamping these older missions takes almost as much time and effort as making a new one from scratch. Cryptic has redone what? Like 20 missions in the last few years with these revamps? And an arc in STO is usually like 7-8 missions long? Had they not done these revamps, or made these system changes, we could conceivably have been done with the Terran arc, the arc after it, and the arc after that(minus any of the revamps to things like the Fed ships/ship interiors obviously). With half a dozen new TFOs and patrols to boot. But even in that situation people would still be here now complaining about not having anything to do because only that newest sliver of content would be treated as viable. Most likely there would be even more complaints about that then there are now because there wouldn't be things like the RTFO system to make playing the older TFOs easier, or the patrol UI to make playing patrols other then Argala worthwhile, or the personal endeavor system to push people into things like TFOs and adventure zones. Event burnout would be worse because events would still be per character, and you would still have to deal with hassle of slotting projects, and dealing with tokens, and having to manage like three different event reward stores, etc.

    Adding new content isn't the main solution in a game as old as STO is. STO already has more content then most people will ever play. Mainly because people don't know a lot of that content exists, or can't get into it even if they do. Even then, I've seen the breakdowns of how much content has been added in the last few years, and its not really the drip you make it out to be. New missions get put out on an average of once every 2ish months(though its actually 2 new missions every 4ish months), and new TFOs are only slightly behind at once every 3ish months. That alone is pretty typical of other MMO schedules, and doesn't include all the revamps, system changes, and QOL updates, we have seen in that time frame. So there is quite a bit being added to STO regularly.

    I also can't really agree that STO is sustaining itself on whales alone. If it was the Zen store with those what? 200+ normally priced zen ships wouldn't exist, and we wouldn't be seeing them put out new ships like the Nova, Oberth, and Saber, at those same prices. We also wouldn't be seeing Cryptic doing the meta event campaigns where they give out free T6 ship tokens, and more recently lobi, and a premium prize pack options. There wouldn't be the yearly 3 free event ships from the anniversary, summer, and winter events either. Arguably, if Cryptic cared only about the whales then Mudd's wouldn't exist because Mudd's is hugely discounted(still expensive mind you) from the price of these ships are via lockboxes, and are account wide unlocks. Which cost them sales on every other character who now doesn't need to buy it. Catering to whales doesn't typically involve giving things out for free, making things cheaper, and creating account wide versions of things that were previously per character.
  • keepcalmchiveonkeepcalmchiveon Member Posts: 4,133 Arc User
    edited December 2021
    not close to being a 'whale' as it were. but i have gotten a few items here and there...and i mean few.

    im very unlucky when it comes to anything with a gambling metric to it. from STO LBs to scratch tickets...i just have a cloud of bad luck that sits over my head for that stuff, therefore i dont play those games anymore.

    ive advocated for the ability to garner stuff in other forms, even if its like 9 months to a year later. and also with others here...make them account unlock, or at the least, rebind(able) to acct.

    and yes...the continual events is getting a bit tiresome.

    as it stands, i have rarely seen a mudd bundle i need or want. so these effect me little. not only for the items in them, but a lot has to do with value for the price...in my opinion and use...you may be different.
    meh

  • whistlerdavidwhistlerdavid Member Posts: 305 Arc User
    angrytarg wrote: »
    Another one of those 'amazing deals' for 600€ pig-2.gif​​
    i almost fell for it. i saw a ship i wanted. was about to buy the zen then remembered how much real money that is lol

  • whistlerdavidwhistlerdavid Member Posts: 305 Arc User
    leemwatson wrote: »
    reyan01 wrote: »
    I've stated this opinion before but, to me, it feels like STO is in a strange place - one where it is just successful enough to float above life support but where neither parent companies (Paramount/CBS and PWE) are motivated to invest anything more than is absolutely necessary into it, hence their only avenue for making money is churning out expensive bundles and prizebox content and running back-to-back FOMO fueled events to keep log-in metrics reasonably high. Even just having a player log on for 15 minutes to play a quick event TFO before logging out pads their metrics with "consistent" player numbers.
    I can't really say I agree with this.

    A game that is just floating above life support, and that isn't getting enough money to do anything but what is absolutely necessary, wouldn't be getting the money to do things like the Year of Klingon revamps, or the TOS arc revamp, or the current Fed interior/ship revamp. None of those were really necessary. The game has gone without updates to those things for years, with no real issue, yet they chose to invest a lot of money into doing it. The same thing with VAs. If they weren't getting money they wouldn't be getting Leeta, Martok, Gowron, L'rell, and would be falling back more on the tier 2 VAs like Shon, or Koren, or justu sing BOFFs for a lot of the dialogue since those don't require VAs.

    Agreed. STO is clearly nowhere near life-support. Dev's have stated time and again that the new episodes take longer to make because of the higher quality they, and we players expect. However, they are still pumping out a good number of episodes per year, above that of what happened in the early years of the game.

    The 'lack of content' and 'they need to focus more on bug-fixing' rhetoric needs to stop, because it's plainly not true. Kael will generally give updates on some bugs, but with next year's Minimum Req's being updated, it's clear they are planning a big engine update (or may have even completed), which is what players have been calling for for a long time.
    a new mission here in there is fine for a while but at some point people will want a big expansion pack the size of delta . and to be honest some of the things they have done they did a bad job. the DSC Klingon we can make now the story is not different yet when you start a dsc star fleet you get a bunch of starting missions for them

  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,913 Arc User
    edited December 2021
    Every MMO I've ever seen has had its devs talk about the issue that players can always consume content faster then its made. Even mighty titans like WoW, and ESO, go months, if not longer, between content drops. With some content drops in ESO being a pack of two dungeons that a lot of the playerbase doesn't care about. Same with WoW and new dungeons/raids. There is also another issue devs have to deal with of the user base saying there is "nothing to do" in an MMO that has been active for 7+ years. Obviously a game couldn't have gotten 7+ years in with nothing to do. The "nothing to do" comments stem from the fact older content has fallen out of favor due to aging mechanics, or poor rewards, which makes them unfavorable compared to new content which is designed, and rewards, better. Not that there is literally nothing to do.

    Yes, the rate of content consumption vs. the rate of content creation is always an issue for every MMO. No argument there, but as a fellow ESO player, I think we both know there is a big difference between the updates we get for ESO vs STO. We could spin off a whole other topic on the quality of what's given in one game vs. another, but honestly.. I don't want to do that because it's not a fair fight. ESO has their optional sub system, a much larger player base, a much larger studio and a much higher budget. While I won't do a direct apples to apples comparison as a courtesy to STO I will concede that the consumption vs. creation problem exists in all games.

    What other games do better though is, I don't have ESO hammering me with huge $300-$600 packs every month, I don't have ESO pushing me to complete events one right after the other or miss out on items that are then either gone forever or cost me hundreds of dollars to get. I also play many other MMO's and I don't have this feeling with any of them. No MMO is perfect, I can make you a laundry list of flaws with all of them, as I assume you also could. I want to be clear, I don't consider it 'greedy' for a game studio to try and make money. They're a business not a charity, they have expenses and people need to make a living, that is completely fine, and I am completely fine paying my share (I subscribe to ESO Plus.) None of the other games however have that sense of greed that I get from Perfect World (I blame them, not Cryptic.) And the player bases of those other games are much more positive and upbeat then what we have around here (not just forums, in game, reddit, etc.)

    It was recently revealed in a live stream that STO currently has 3 people that do all the coding for this entire game. That number is insanely low for an MMO. Most indie studios on kickstarter are larger then the staff PWI has allocated to Cryptic to make STO. When suggestions are made to Cryptic, they are constantly answered with 'we don't have time' because it's true.. they don't. The Devs in this game are massively over worked and it's showing in the game content. We hear about how successful the game is.. why hasn't any of our revenue been used to expand the studio? I don't see this from other games I play.
    I also can't really agree that STO is sustaining itself on whales alone. If it was the Zen store with those what? 200+ normally priced zen ships wouldn't exist, and we wouldn't be seeing them put out new ships like the Nova, Oberth, and Saber, at those same prices. We also wouldn't be seeing Cryptic doing the meta event campaigns where they give out free T6 ship tokens, and more recently lobi, and a premium prize pack options. There wouldn't be the yearly 3 free event ships from the anniversary, summer, and winter events either. Arguably, if Cryptic cared only about the whales then Mudd's wouldn't exist because Mudd's is hugely discounted(still expensive mind you) from the price of these ships are via lockboxes, and are account wide unlocks. Which cost them sales on every other character who now doesn't need to buy it. Catering to whales doesn't typically involve giving things out for free, making things cheaper, and creating account wide versions of things that were previously per character.

    Also fair points, and well presented.

    To be clear, I don't think Cryptic is doing EVERYTHING wrong. I am still here for a reason, there are good things and releasing C-Store ships is a plus. The Event Campaign reward was probably the best thing they have ever done as far as giveaways go, that was great. Things like this are why I agreed 100% that the game is not in maintenance mode, but it does very much feel like the bulk of the focus is on whales. In order to retain the big spending players, there must be 'casuals' as well. Simply put, Whales do not stick around if they don't have anyone to show off their spoils to. If you want to keep the whales you have to give enough to everyone else to keep them around, whales don't play dead games. So while part of these things are just great PR and a good way to run your game, these things are not 100% magnanimous in nature.
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  • keepcalmchiveonkeepcalmchiveon Member Posts: 4,133 Arc User
    why doesnt cbs then just buy STO from PWI and expand the staff and overall game? not getting into legal mumbo that non of us are aware of, but it seems to be the right step forward. (given they are bringing a new game soon from a rival game company)
    meh

  • livinlifejb90#4082 livinlifejb90 Member Posts: 218 Arc User
    edited December 2021
    reyan01 wrote: »
    To be honest, I'm just really tired of all this. It really feels like the only time there is any news regarding STO its about something new to buy (more often than not its another expensive bundle) or yet another daisy-chained event that expect us to replay recycled content with a new FOMO unlock.

    It just feels like the people calling the shots are only interested in me paying rather than playing, and I find it truly tiresome.

    its how you know the game is at end-of-life. The focus now is squarely on squeezing as much money out of the players as possible before they shut the game down. this is pretty much how all mmo's go out. We just have to wait for the "We're sorry to announce..." blog post.​​
    gQytlm7.jpg
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,913 Arc User
    why doesnt cbs then just buy STO from PWI and expand the staff and overall game? not getting into legal mumbo that non of us are aware of, but it seems to be the right step forward. (given they are bringing a new game soon from a rival game company)

    Why would CBS buy their own IP? They already own the Star Trek IP, they license the IP to Perfect World so they can use the name on the game. CBS already has the right to withdrawal the IP if they felt it was necessary, though I would imagine there is legal wording in the agreement that would call for them to have a valid reason. Nothing the game is doing is a negative to CBS at all, they're busy making shows, they don't care if some tiny game company is using their license to milk as much cash has possible, heck they are likely signing off on all of it. What do they care?
    its how you know the game is at end-of-life. The focus now is squarely on squeezing as much money out of the players as possible before they shut the game down. this is pretty much how all mmo's go out. We just have to wait for the "We're sorry to announce..." blog post.​​

    I will admit, it feels that way sometimes. I like to think that's not the case, the game does get updates and fixes on a regular basis.. but I can certainly understand why anyone would feel this way. Honestly, if we got that ominous announcement post.. I wouldn't be completely surprised by it.
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