One cool detail Thomas gave during the stream: for this ship they actually took the model CBS used in the show, decreased the poly count, and then made some tweaks necessary for the game engine. So it's pretty much as screen accurate as you can possibly get! For those that don't know they don't normally build ships this way, usually they use the CBS model as a reference and rebuild it from scratch.
Haven't they done that with all the 32c ships and the Inquiry? I recall them stating in an earlier stream that part of the reason they've been able to push all the recent Trek ships from the shows were because CBS directly handed them the models to work with. They even mentioned animating mechanical tentacles was hard, teasing at a possible future Orion Pirate Mothership.
Maybe I'm mis-remembering what was said, but I thought they said (some time ago) that they can't just "port" stuff (specifically models/art/etc) from Champions/Neverwinter to STO.
Well, if they can take a model made by some outside studio for a TV show and "port" it to something useable in game, I guess that means they can now do the same with art assets from their other games that use the same engine. So good news
Maybe I'm mis-remembering what was said, but I thought they said (some time ago) that they can't just "port" stuff (specifically models/art/etc) from Champions/Neverwinter to STO.
Well, if they can take a model made by some outside studio for a TV show and "port" it to something useable in game, I guess that means they can now do the same with art assets from their other games that use the same engine. So good news
Handing copies of the shooting models to STO makes it a lot easier to take measurements and look at the shapes in the 3D editor itself from any angle, which is a lot faster and easier from working from 2D screencaps in making a new model from scratch. It is often more work reducing the polycount of an existing model than it is to make a new one, lowering it causes distortions that you have to fix and often the mesh was not constructed in a way that makes that fixing easy.
The complexity of the Kirk class model probably changes that balance a bit, and the model itself may have, by chance, been one that was more amenable to polycount reduction for various reasons (for example its overall form may have been made in a lower polycount then been raised to smooth the curves and edges and enable more surface detail for the show, CBS has been buying its more detailed models from third parties from what I hear).
It is often more work reducing the polycount of an existing model than it is to make a new one, lowering it causes distortions that you have to fix and often the mesh was not constructed in a way that makes that fixing easy.
And yet, that is exactly what they said happened with this ship. They literally took CBS's model and converted it to be used in game. And my point is simply it's cool that they can do that, and proves they can also do the same with assets from Cryptic's other games.
It is often more work reducing the polycount of an existing model than it is to make a new one, lowering it causes distortions that you have to fix and often the mesh was not constructed in a way that makes that fixing easy.
And yet, that is exactly what they said happened with this ship. They literally took CBS's model and converted it to be used in game. And my point is simply it's cool that they can do that, and proves they can also do the same with assets from Cryptic's other games.
From the way they were talking in the livestream it was probably a lucky fluke that it was relatively easy to convert.
The fact that it is a standalone model going into a space environment probably helped too, and that would not apply to things from Champions, Neverwinter, or other games' assets that have to fit tightly with stuff already based on different meshes and skeletons in STO.
So.....I cannot seem to find it.....when does this ship become available?
Kael said the blog would go out on Friday and that he thinks the ship goes live next week (because he normally schedules the reveal and blog one week before release), but he didn't have the information in front of him at the time so he couldn't verify that.
It is often more work reducing the polycount of an existing model than it is to make a new one, lowering it causes distortions that you have to fix and often the mesh was not constructed in a way that makes that fixing easy.
And yet, that is exactly what they said happened with this ship. They literally took CBS's model and converted it to be used in game. And my point is simply it's cool that they can do that, and proves they can also do the same with assets from Cryptic's other games.
From the way they were talking in the livestream it was probably a lucky fluke that it was relatively easy to convert.
I don't remember any such comment suggesting any kind of luck. What specific statement are you referring to?
The fact that it is a standalone model going into a space environment probably helped too, and that would not apply to things from Champions, Neverwinter, or other games' assets that have to fit tightly with stuff already based on different meshes and skeletons in STO.
I'm not referring to something from ground going in a space map, so let's not be silly here
But seriously; if they are apparently able to take an asset made by some outside group in a completely different system than they use and convert it (not remake it, but actually convert it) to be used in game, then they can clearly do the same with assets made using their own engine.
Also, I'm not sure why you seem to be arguing against my point. This is clearly something they can do now. They may not have been able to do it in the past, but now they can.
That's a GOOD thing. Not something to try to argue against
They've been given the models from Discovery, but it takes rebuilding largely from scratch or significant revising to get it into a state that's suitable for STO's engine.
In the stream they actually said/explained that the model of the ship we have in game is the same model they were given by CBS, they just removed pollys. They did not build a new model; it is the same model. They also said this is different from what they did in the past.
As far as how much work it took, neither of us can say because we weren't there and we didn't do it
It is often more work reducing the polycount of an existing model than it is to make a new one, lowering it causes distortions that you have to fix and often the mesh was not constructed in a way that makes that fixing easy.
And yet, that is exactly what they said happened with this ship. They literally took CBS's model and converted it to be used in game. And my point is simply it's cool that they can do that, and proves they can also do the same with assets from Cryptic's other games.
From the way they were talking in the livestream it was probably a lucky fluke that it was relatively easy to convert.
I don't remember any such comment suggesting any kind of luck. What specific statement are you referring to?
The fact that it is a standalone model going into a space environment probably helped too, and that would not apply to things from Champions, Neverwinter, or other games' assets that have to fit tightly with stuff already based on different meshes and skeletons in STO.
I'm not referring to something from ground going in a space map, so let's not be silly here
But seriously; if they are apparently able to take an asset made by some outside group in a completely different system than they use and convert it (not remake it, but actually convert it) to be used in game, then they can clearly do the same with assets made using their own engine.
Also, I'm not sure why you seem to be arguing against my point. This is clearly something they can do now. They may not have been able to do it in the past, but now they can.
That's a GOOD thing. Not something to try to argue against
I was not talking about taking something from a ground map and putting it into a space map either, rather anything STO could possibly borrow from Champions or Neverwinter would be ground stuff, and in theory that is even harder to convert than space things because they are often meshes wrapped in meshes and all have to work together (like a character with clothing).
In the case of clothing the sliders have to work on the bones in the clothing exactly the same way that they do with the character model or you get a mess for instance. That is true of animations too, the clothing has to move the way the limb underneath moves or it is a problem. If Cryptic used the same character models and rigging across all their MMOs it might be different, but if they did they would have been quite the exception to normal game design a decade ago.
It all boils down to whether something is quicker and easier to adapt or to remake from scratch (and of course whether it is worth doing at all).
Listen to not just what the devs say in that livestream, but also to HOW they say it, the tone of voice, choice of words, and body language. It is obvious that they consider the situation with the Kirk an exception, not that they came up with some breakthrough technique that allows them to easily convert show models into game ships, or convert other game's gear into ground gear for here.
I don't know if you have ever worked with mesh. I have and while I am not great with it I could get by enough to make mesh gadgets, the simplest mesh clothing, and whatnot for Second Life (that is kind of the ultimate crafting game, players can even import their own meshes and scripting within certain limits) so I know what they are talking about when they say things like it being easier to copy ships from scratch than to reduce the polycount, having had to deal with it between different 3D mesh making tools.
That modified original model thing my happen more often in the future if CBS goes back to whatever shelf they bought the Kirk model from if the artist does purposely make models with an eye to being easy to adapt for games, or it may not if the originals CBS sends Cryptic in the future are designed as high-poly from the start and it is easier to copy than it is to fix. There are different schools of 3D modeling and some artists learned from a gaming standpoint and start with low-poly and then add on to bring up the quality for cinema while others from a "pure art" one that starts high poly and does not consider how practical their meshes would be for poly reduction.
Meshes don't even all have the same structure, some are based mostly on square elements, some on triangles, and some a mix of both (or even other shapes like pentagons) and render engines differ in how they handle them enough that something that looks good (or even great) in one engine can look lumpy and nasty in another. While CBS probably uses Lightwave I have no idea how well its rendering compares with the STO engine, models that look good in Lightwave might look bad in STO.
On top of that there are hundreds of different 3D model and scene formats, and converting formats can often cause problems that take a lot of fixing. Again, I have no idea what format CBS gives STO the models in or whether it needs conversion, but even if it doesn't that does not mean there wont be trouble with some of the meshes. CBS has been using different model suppliers so some may have been converted to the format CBS uses in a way that looks good onscreen (or acceptable anyway, I don't think any of the PIC or DSC s3 ships look any good except maybe the Kirk), but that looks bad in the STO engine without a lot of work to fix it.
And yes, if they did come up with some miracle tool that they can feed an external mesh into and it pops out the other end ready for STO it would be fantastic. I am just realistic and know enough about the subject in general to seriously doubt the Kirk is a sign that they have that tool.
So ugly. And why are all those cutouts there? Its a lot of wasted space for no known reason. The ship could be a lot smaller, or have a lot more internal area if they got rid of that wasted space. So what are they for?
Obviously that isn't Cryptic's fault, they are working with what they were given. If they made it have separation then I could see it, but I can't think of anything else that would make sense there.
Yeah, after looking at it from more angles, I like it far less then I initially did. I like it from the top and rear view, but it looks like the saucer and the main hull are 'detached' which is a look I just hate. I also don't like the look of the main hull and I notice they are making a very careful effort not to show the ships deflector dish.. there are no views of it from a front facing, underside which looks like that is where the ship really looks it's worst.
I am also not a fan of the bridge officer seating, the console is of no use.. the only thing I really want is the trait. I would likely use it on my Styx when tanking, but even then.. it's a trait I would buy on it's own, but I would never consider spending 2 Billion EC to get it.
Overall, this ship is lackluster, and going by the bulk of opinion is not going to be popular. That means it will be very expensive as supply will be low because people will likely pick other ships from the promo box. With all the choices in the box, if a new ship doesn't really stand out, it's basically just dead on arrival (Franklin anyone?) This ship seems pretty much destined to fit nicely into that category of ships you know are in the game, but never see.
Yeah, after looking at it from more angles, I like it far less then I initially did. I like it from the top and rear view, but it looks like the saucer and the main hull are 'detached' which is a look I just hate. I also don't like the look of the main hull and I notice they are making a very careful effort not to show the ships deflector dish.. there are no views of it from a front facing, underside which looks like that is where the ship really looks it's worst.
I am also not a fan of the bridge officer seating, the console is of no use.. the only thing I really want is the trait. I would likely use it on my Styx when tanking, but even then.. it's a trait I would buy on it's own, but I would never consider spending 2 Billion EC to get it.
Overall, this ship is lackluster, and going by the bulk of opinion is not going to be popular. That means it will be very expensive as supply will be low because people will likely pick other ships from the promo box. With all the choices in the box, if a new ship doesn't really stand out, it's basically just dead on arrival (Franklin anyone?) This ship seems pretty much destined to fit nicely into that category of ships you know are in the game, but never see.
Sad.
A lot of the promo ships have been dead on arrival for a good amount of time, I always find it humorous how Cryptic seems to ignore this, though I understand its likely that there's one person in particular driving these promo ships that flop terribly. Promo packs still sell of course because of the previous ships that are desireable, so its easy for them to excuse to complete failure of a newer ship.
Going to be honest here, I am very disappointed in this Promo ship and others as of late before it. This video covers the reason for my dissapointment. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-E4O485lsl4
A Space Barbie is all this ship is, PF could do much better for something that is going to be in Kirks name. I haven't opened my wallet much if at all in this game as of late, don't think ill be doing that for a time more.
One cool detail Thomas gave during the stream: for this ship they actually took the model CBS used in the show, decreased the poly count, and then made some tweaks necessary for the game engine. So it's pretty much as screen accurate as you can possibly get! For those that don't know they don't normally build ships this way, usually they use the CBS model as a reference and rebuild it from scratch.
Haven't they done that with all the 32c ships and the Inquiry? I recall them stating in an earlier stream that part of the reason they've been able to push all the recent Trek ships from the shows were because CBS directly handed them the models to work with. They even mentioned animating mechanical tentacles was hard, teasing at a possible future Orion Pirate Mothership.
CBS has been giving them the models, yes, however they normally only use them as reference material while building a STO version from scratch. Basically they'd have the CBS model up on one monitor where they could rotate it around, check different angles, make measurements, etc, and on the other monitor they'd have their modeling software open with their own separate WIP version.
With the Kirk they instead took that CBS model and made changes to it directly to adapt it for use in the game.
Overall, this ship is lackluster, and going by the bulk of opinion is not going to be popular. That means it will be very expensive as supply will be low because people will likely pick other ships from the promo box.
If nobody wants it, then the price should wind up being low, as nobody would pay a high price on the Exchange - why drop billions of EC on something you don't want?
A high price indicates an item that is in demand. You may not desire it - I'd take one if it was free, but I'm not giving large sums of my hard-earned EC for it - but if the price is high, then logically someone must be willing to pay it (as items do not remain on the Exchange indefinitely).
If nobody wants it, then the price should wind up being low, as nobody would pay a high price on the Exchange - why drop billions of EC on something you don't want?
Because that's not how promo ship pricing works.
The problem is, in order to get this ship you have to win the 'grand prize' from a promo and specifically pick this ship. The box doesn't just open to this ship, it opens to a box where you select between this ship and all the other previous grand prize ships.
If a ship is undesirable, no one will ever pick it. People that win ships do one of two things, they either pick the ship they want and fly it, or they pick a ship they know they can flip on the exchange (or trade channels) and sell it. If you're picking a ship to sell, you're going to pick something like the Discovery Constitution/D7, the Vaadwaur Miracle Worker Juggernaut, etc. Simply put, if you want to buy this ship for EC it won't be an option because it simply won't be available.
There will always be a couple people who will realize this and try to fill that small section of demand by picking the ship and listing it at the maximum possible price. Eventually, there will always be someone that really wants it and will come along and pay but these posters are prepared that these ships will be a long haul to sell. If you select a Discovery D7 and jack the price through the roof, it will never sell.. competition regulates the price. That isn't true of the 'DOA' Promos that a few people might still want.
Scarcity increases price. Try to buy a Franklin class.. if you can find one, they're insanely expensive. The 3 or 4 people that actually want one have to pay out the nose. They cost far more then a more desirable ship, you pretty much have to have a deal in place with someone that if they win, they will pick it just to sell to you.
Comments
Yes, it's not as ugly as the other 32c ships, but that's not a high bar to cross.
Haven't they done that with all the 32c ships and the Inquiry? I recall them stating in an earlier stream that part of the reason they've been able to push all the recent Trek ships from the shows were because CBS directly handed them the models to work with. They even mentioned animating mechanical tentacles was hard, teasing at a possible future Orion Pirate Mothership.
Well, if they can take a model made by some outside studio for a TV show and "port" it to something useable in game, I guess that means they can now do the same with art assets from their other games that use the same engine. So good news
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Handing copies of the shooting models to STO makes it a lot easier to take measurements and look at the shapes in the 3D editor itself from any angle, which is a lot faster and easier from working from 2D screencaps in making a new model from scratch. It is often more work reducing the polycount of an existing model than it is to make a new one, lowering it causes distortions that you have to fix and often the mesh was not constructed in a way that makes that fixing easy.
The complexity of the Kirk class model probably changes that balance a bit, and the model itself may have, by chance, been one that was more amenable to polycount reduction for various reasons (for example its overall form may have been made in a lower polycount then been raised to smooth the curves and edges and enable more surface detail for the show, CBS has been buying its more detailed models from third parties from what I hear).
And yet, that is exactly what they said happened with this ship. They literally took CBS's model and converted it to be used in game. And my point is simply it's cool that they can do that, and proves they can also do the same with assets from Cryptic's other games.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
From the way they were talking in the livestream it was probably a lucky fluke that it was relatively easy to convert.
The fact that it is a standalone model going into a space environment probably helped too, and that would not apply to things from Champions, Neverwinter, or other games' assets that have to fit tightly with stuff already based on different meshes and skeletons in STO.
yeah, not a fan
Kael said the blog would go out on Friday and that he thinks the ship goes live next week (because he normally schedules the reveal and blog one week before release), but he didn't have the information in front of him at the time so he couldn't verify that.
I don't remember any such comment suggesting any kind of luck. What specific statement are you referring to?
I'm not referring to something from ground going in a space map, so let's not be silly here
But seriously; if they are apparently able to take an asset made by some outside group in a completely different system than they use and convert it (not remake it, but actually convert it) to be used in game, then they can clearly do the same with assets made using their own engine.
Also, I'm not sure why you seem to be arguing against my point. This is clearly something they can do now. They may not have been able to do it in the past, but now they can.
That's a GOOD thing. Not something to try to argue against
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
In the stream they actually said/explained that the model of the ship we have in game is the same model they were given by CBS, they just removed pollys. They did not build a new model; it is the same model. They also said this is different from what they did in the past.
As far as how much work it took, neither of us can say because we weren't there and we didn't do it
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
I was not talking about taking something from a ground map and putting it into a space map either, rather anything STO could possibly borrow from Champions or Neverwinter would be ground stuff, and in theory that is even harder to convert than space things because they are often meshes wrapped in meshes and all have to work together (like a character with clothing).
In the case of clothing the sliders have to work on the bones in the clothing exactly the same way that they do with the character model or you get a mess for instance. That is true of animations too, the clothing has to move the way the limb underneath moves or it is a problem. If Cryptic used the same character models and rigging across all their MMOs it might be different, but if they did they would have been quite the exception to normal game design a decade ago.
It all boils down to whether something is quicker and easier to adapt or to remake from scratch (and of course whether it is worth doing at all).
Listen to not just what the devs say in that livestream, but also to HOW they say it, the tone of voice, choice of words, and body language. It is obvious that they consider the situation with the Kirk an exception, not that they came up with some breakthrough technique that allows them to easily convert show models into game ships, or convert other game's gear into ground gear for here.
I don't know if you have ever worked with mesh. I have and while I am not great with it I could get by enough to make mesh gadgets, the simplest mesh clothing, and whatnot for Second Life (that is kind of the ultimate crafting game, players can even import their own meshes and scripting within certain limits) so I know what they are talking about when they say things like it being easier to copy ships from scratch than to reduce the polycount, having had to deal with it between different 3D mesh making tools.
That modified original model thing my happen more often in the future if CBS goes back to whatever shelf they bought the Kirk model from if the artist does purposely make models with an eye to being easy to adapt for games, or it may not if the originals CBS sends Cryptic in the future are designed as high-poly from the start and it is easier to copy than it is to fix. There are different schools of 3D modeling and some artists learned from a gaming standpoint and start with low-poly and then add on to bring up the quality for cinema while others from a "pure art" one that starts high poly and does not consider how practical their meshes would be for poly reduction.
Meshes don't even all have the same structure, some are based mostly on square elements, some on triangles, and some a mix of both (or even other shapes like pentagons) and render engines differ in how they handle them enough that something that looks good (or even great) in one engine can look lumpy and nasty in another. While CBS probably uses Lightwave I have no idea how well its rendering compares with the STO engine, models that look good in Lightwave might look bad in STO.
On top of that there are hundreds of different 3D model and scene formats, and converting formats can often cause problems that take a lot of fixing. Again, I have no idea what format CBS gives STO the models in or whether it needs conversion, but even if it doesn't that does not mean there wont be trouble with some of the meshes. CBS has been using different model suppliers so some may have been converted to the format CBS uses in a way that looks good onscreen (or acceptable anyway, I don't think any of the PIC or DSC s3 ships look any good except maybe the Kirk), but that looks bad in the STO engine without a lot of work to fix it.
And yes, if they did come up with some miracle tool that they can feed an external mesh into and it pops out the other end ready for STO it would be fantastic. I am just realistic and know enough about the subject in general to seriously doubt the Kirk is a sign that they have that tool.
Obviously that isn't Cryptic's fault, they are working with what they were given. If they made it have separation then I could see it, but I can't think of anything else that would make sense there.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
"There's No Way Like Poway!"
Real Join Date: October 2010
I am also not a fan of the bridge officer seating, the console is of no use.. the only thing I really want is the trait. I would likely use it on my Styx when tanking, but even then.. it's a trait I would buy on it's own, but I would never consider spending 2 Billion EC to get it.
Overall, this ship is lackluster, and going by the bulk of opinion is not going to be popular. That means it will be very expensive as supply will be low because people will likely pick other ships from the promo box. With all the choices in the box, if a new ship doesn't really stand out, it's basically just dead on arrival (Franklin anyone?) This ship seems pretty much destined to fit nicely into that category of ships you know are in the game, but never see.
Sad.
A lot of the promo ships have been dead on arrival for a good amount of time, I always find it humorous how Cryptic seems to ignore this, though I understand its likely that there's one person in particular driving these promo ships that flop terribly. Promo packs still sell of course because of the previous ships that are desireable, so its easy for them to excuse to complete failure of a newer ship.
Can't argue with that. Matt Jefferies is spinning in his grave.
A Space Barbie is all this ship is, PF could do much better for something that is going to be in Kirks name. I haven't opened my wallet much if at all in this game as of late, don't think ill be doing that for a time more.
CBS has been giving them the models, yes, however they normally only use them as reference material while building a STO version from scratch. Basically they'd have the CBS model up on one monitor where they could rotate it around, check different angles, make measurements, etc, and on the other monitor they'd have their modeling software open with their own separate WIP version.
With the Kirk they instead took that CBS model and made changes to it directly to adapt it for use in the game.
A high price indicates an item that is in demand. You may not desire it - I'd take one if it was free, but I'm not giving large sums of my hard-earned EC for it - but if the price is high, then logically someone must be willing to pay it (as items do not remain on the Exchange indefinitely).
Because that's not how promo ship pricing works.
The problem is, in order to get this ship you have to win the 'grand prize' from a promo and specifically pick this ship. The box doesn't just open to this ship, it opens to a box where you select between this ship and all the other previous grand prize ships.
If a ship is undesirable, no one will ever pick it. People that win ships do one of two things, they either pick the ship they want and fly it, or they pick a ship they know they can flip on the exchange (or trade channels) and sell it. If you're picking a ship to sell, you're going to pick something like the Discovery Constitution/D7, the Vaadwaur Miracle Worker Juggernaut, etc. Simply put, if you want to buy this ship for EC it won't be an option because it simply won't be available.
There will always be a couple people who will realize this and try to fill that small section of demand by picking the ship and listing it at the maximum possible price. Eventually, there will always be someone that really wants it and will come along and pay but these posters are prepared that these ships will be a long haul to sell. If you select a Discovery D7 and jack the price through the roof, it will never sell.. competition regulates the price. That isn't true of the 'DOA' Promos that a few people might still want.
Scarcity increases price. Try to buy a Franklin class.. if you can find one, they're insanely expensive. The 3 or 4 people that actually want one have to pay out the nose. They cost far more then a more desirable ship, you pretty much have to have a deal in place with someone that if they win, they will pick it just to sell to you.