I never understood why ship age even mattered at all.
What prevents Starfleet from taking a Constitution Class and putting a new Warp Core in it and upgrading it's Phasers?
I see them like cars, you can take a car from the 50's, add fuel injection, ABS, AC, swap out the transmission if you wish.. heck you can put a new entertainment system in it.. add bluetooth.. whatever. Yeah, it's a lot of work, but still typically less then spending development on designing and building a brand new model car.
The bulk of money will be spent on mass producing newer ships.. of course, but there is no reason that Starfleet couldn't go back and save some resources by bringing older ships up to newer spec. That seems like something that would not only be done, but would actually be pretty common. The idea of retiring a Starship after 100 years seems ridiculous.
There comes a point where you can't do that anymore. Yeah a car from the 50s can be modernized with enough work...but try that using a model A. You will literally have to replace everything. The frame won't hold a modern engine. The axle system will have to replaced and redesigned to hold modern wheels. The body can't even house a modern engine or transmission. And that is for something relatively simple. There is a good reason why battleships are retrofitted so much before they are retired for new models. Battleships don't have a 50 year shelf life (yes there are a few exceptions of older ships still in commission, but they are honestly museum pieces and not active warships)...now you want starships that are gonna get into battles to last longer?!? The idea of NOT retiring a COMBAT spaceship after even 50 years seems silly. And getting on a ship 100 years out of date for combat is space seems just down right suicidal.
but you don't necessarily NEED the older ships to fight your major battles. SOMETHING has to go out and maintain the sensor arrays, shuttle troops around, or in the case of the Lantree, simply move cargo faster than a cargo ship goes. even on a major battlefield, they serve the purposes of additional sensors, support ships, or as in the IRL navy, take the hit that the capital ship would take otherwise.
So...you ascribe to the Zapp Brannigan school of combat I see. If you are fielding ships just to take hits...yeah...I'm sorry, but you are doing something incredibly wrong. As for sensors...so sensor tech from 100 year ago is gonna help...k. That's not deux ex machina writing at all *sarcasm*. As for things to do mundane things...yes you COULD use an old combat ship to do those things...but WHY?!? Do we send out old warships to maintain a marine buoy? Does that make sense? Do we use warships to carry freight? If we need things sent in bulk, we have ships that can carry more that are not warships designed for that. If we need something small and sent in quickly, we have speed boats for that too...none of which are warships and can be better designed for those purposes without the added limitation of making a warship with phasers and torpedoes and advanced combat sensors.
Actually, sensors are one of the easiest things to upgrade from what is shown in TOS. Pike's Enterprise in The Cage had a huge sensor dome over the bridge, it was so tall that a lot of people thought it actually was the bridge deck (it isn't, you can see the turbolift tube stops before it gets to the dome). Sensor technology had progressed so far between 2252 when The Cage took place and 2265 when Kirk took command that the deck-high sensor dome was replaced with the much flatter one seen in TOS.
Assuming the trend in smaller more efficient sensors continues in later times the bigger older sensor suit housings in vintage ships could hold considerably more bleeding edge sensors in a refit than new general purpose ships are likely to bother with, so refitting them as some sort of Wild Weasel style sensor scout/"EW" ship like the US did with old F4 aircraft when they were retired from the air superiority role does make some sense, especially since it is an easy refit.
Mostly though, the old style ships appearing are most likely the same situation as the Miranda class where they are still leveraging proven designs and upgrading the equipment when building them new (one of the Miranda class ships in TNG was explicitly stated to have been built in the late 2340s, some twenty years before the Ent-D encountered it, for instance). There is no reason to rule out the probability that most of the Excelsiors in TNG were newly built to serve as medium cruisers in the same way.
I think the Excelsior and Constitution will continue to be the main go to ships. And will continue on through the test of time to come. 32nd, 42nd or even 52nd century. I will bet there will still be Excelsior's and Constitutions. May look a bit futuristic but still the old classic.
I'd prefer the old vintage class starships over the new models. Though new model of ships is fine for some folks but i'd prefer the old classic's with new upgrades. Whats wrong with a 32nd century Excelsior? I'm one of those guys that thinks a 1950 Chevy is still a good vehicle all you need is to upgrade it to modern standards and it will run as good as the new models.
There's also the fact the while older vehicles may not move as good or as fast as the newer models, however older vehicles are much more durable, a Chevy from the 1950s could definitely take beating while a Civic from 2008 would be out of comission after crashing once.
> @coldnapalm said: > Because of design philosophy...not because of technology. We can make a car WAY tougher than the 1950 Chevy now if we wanted to. But than it wouldn't get the gas mileage of the Honda Civic. Or be as safe. Or have all the technology and convenience. Look at a tank from 1950 and compare it to a modern one where combat is the primary purpose. It has more firepower, more speed AND more armor to take more damage before it's out of commission. > > Star Trek reused old ship models for real world reasons of BUDGET...not because it makes logical sense to be using designs that are 100 year old as a space combat ship.
I think you can add in fan service and recognizability as well. It’s easier for fans to know off the top “that’s a Miranda” or “that’s a Excelsior” because they’ve been around for almost every iteration of Trek in some form (visual and/or referenced). Unless it was story specific (Defiant in DS9, for example), how many new ship classes/designs that are unique have been introduced as full on replacements for older models/classes and that older one completely banished? I don’t think any Trek franchise will ever stop reusing older ship models/classes.
but you don't necessarily NEED the older ships to fight your major battles. SOMETHING has to go out and maintain the sensor arrays, shuttle troops around, or in the case of the Lantree, simply move cargo faster than a cargo ship goes. even on a major battlefield, they serve the purposes of additional sensors, support ships, or as in the IRL navy, take the hit that the capital ship would take otherwise.
So...you ascribe to the Zapp Brannigan school of combat I see. If you are fielding ships just to take hits...yeah...I'm sorry, but you are doing something incredibly wrong. As for sensors...so sensor tech from 100 year ago is gonna help...k. That's not deux ex machina writing at all *sarcasm*. As for things to do mundane things...yes you COULD use an old combat ship to do those things...but WHY?!? Do we send out old warships to maintain a marine buoy? Does that make sense? Do we use warships to carry freight? If we need things sent in bulk, we have ships that can carry more that are not warships designed for that. If we need something small and sent in quickly, we have speed boats for that too...none of which are warships and can be better designed for those purposes without the added limitation of making a warship with phasers and torpedoes and advanced combat sensors.
So you are saying the United States navy, the most powerful entity on the planet, is "doing it wrong"... Mkay.
Every Cruiser, destroyer and frigate captain in the Navy knows it's his/her duty to get between the weapon and the Carrier. It was that way when I joined, that way when retired, and I sincerely doubt it has changed one bit.
As far as your comment on Sensor tech, that's a strawman, there. who is saying they did not retrofit with an improved sensor suite? it was done in the 50s, the Navy refitting destroyers with huge radar arrays as improved picket ships. and even an old sensor at the edge of the main battlegroup's effective range is a plus. that's why Submarines employ UUVs and towed arrays, to extend the sensor capability of the ship. and YES, Virginia, Warships can, have and will carry freight, especially in something time sensitive, such as responding to an earthquake or some other disaster. MAYBE you should consider that peopole with experience in such things may know more about them that you do
I think you can add in fan service and recognizability as well. It’s easier for fans to know off the top “that’s a Miranda” or “that’s a Excelsior” because they’ve been around for almost every iteration of Trek in some form (visual and/or referenced). Unless it was story specific (Defiant in DS9, for example), how many new ship classes/designs that are unique have been introduced as full on replacements for older models/classes and that older one completely banished? I don’t think any Trek franchise will ever stop reusing older ship models/classes.
I'm sure there is a bit of that too. But I get the feeling that showrunners back in the days would have introduced WAY more ships and ship types if the cost was not really an issue like it is now. CGI ships are pretty cheap and relatively quick to make. Those old models...not so much.
I say used rather then introduced as both TNG and DS9 introduced as many if not more new ship classes as DSC but those were the blink and you'll miss it background ships that were used in one episode and never a second time (or if they were used it was stock footage from the first episode).
but you don't necessarily NEED the older ships to fight your major battles. SOMETHING has to go out and maintain the sensor arrays, shuttle troops around, or in the case of the Lantree, simply move cargo faster than a cargo ship goes. even on a major battlefield, they serve the purposes of additional sensors, support ships, or as in the IRL navy, take the hit that the capital ship would take otherwise.
So...you ascribe to the Zapp Brannigan school of combat I see. If you are fielding ships just to take hits...yeah...I'm sorry, but you are doing something incredibly wrong. As for sensors...so sensor tech from 100 year ago is gonna help...k. That's not deux ex machina writing at all *sarcasm*. As for things to do mundane things...yes you COULD use an old combat ship to do those things...but WHY?!? Do we send out old warships to maintain a marine buoy? Does that make sense? Do we use warships to carry freight? If we need things sent in bulk, we have ships that can carry more that are not warships designed for that. If we need something small and sent in quickly, we have speed boats for that too...none of which are warships and can be better designed for those purposes without the added limitation of making a warship with phasers and torpedoes and advanced combat sensors.
So you are saying the United States navy, the most powerful entity on the planet, is "doing it wrong"... Mkay.
Every Cruiser, destroyer and frigate captain in the Navy knows it's his/her duty to get between the weapon and the Carrier. It was that way when I joined, that way when retired, and I sincerely doubt it has changed one bit.
As far as your comment on Sensor tech, that's a strawman, there. who is saying they did not retrofit with an improved sensor suite? it was done in the 50s, the Navy refitting destroyers with huge radar arrays as improved picket ships. and even an old sensor at the edge of the main battlegroup's effective range is a plus. that's why Submarines employ UUVs and towed arrays, to extend the sensor capability of the ship. and YES, Virginia, Warships can, have and will carry freight, especially in something time sensitive, such as responding to an earthquake or some other disaster. MAYBE you should consider that peopole with experience in such things may know more about them that you do
Oh really...the US navy fields ships from 1921 to get between cruisers and incoming fire. With people on them. WOW, I didn't give the US armed services much credit for their intelligence, but they are more idiotic than I could have EVER imagined. And those sensor arrays were put on ships built or designed in the 1850s? WOW didn't realize that was even possible. And did I say that warships could NEVER carry freight? Or did I say that other ships that are purposed made for it could do it better. Which makes using OLD warships for the SOLE purpose of carrying freight idiotic. The cost of running a warship vs a freight ship in terms of resources alone would make that a no. Maybe if you are going to claim expertise, it would help if you were an actual expert next time.
That is NOT what I said, so you are either to.. I will not say it. to comprehend, your you are twisting things to salvage your E-Peen which is what you always do. I'm done with the thread. go ahead and push the "I win" button. I have much better things to do that argue. but one last word of advice. Do come out of mom's basement before you are 40... there is a whole wide world out there
Comments
Actually, sensors are one of the easiest things to upgrade from what is shown in TOS. Pike's Enterprise in The Cage had a huge sensor dome over the bridge, it was so tall that a lot of people thought it actually was the bridge deck (it isn't, you can see the turbolift tube stops before it gets to the dome). Sensor technology had progressed so far between 2252 when The Cage took place and 2265 when Kirk took command that the deck-high sensor dome was replaced with the much flatter one seen in TOS.
Assuming the trend in smaller more efficient sensors continues in later times the bigger older sensor suit housings in vintage ships could hold considerably more bleeding edge sensors in a refit than new general purpose ships are likely to bother with, so refitting them as some sort of Wild Weasel style sensor scout/"EW" ship like the US did with old F4 aircraft when they were retired from the air superiority role does make some sense, especially since it is an easy refit.
Mostly though, the old style ships appearing are most likely the same situation as the Miranda class where they are still leveraging proven designs and upgrading the equipment when building them new (one of the Miranda class ships in TNG was explicitly stated to have been built in the late 2340s, some twenty years before the Ent-D encountered it, for instance). There is no reason to rule out the probability that most of the Excelsiors in TNG were newly built to serve as medium cruisers in the same way.
There's also the fact the while older vehicles may not move as good or as fast as the newer models, however older vehicles are much more durable, a Chevy from the 1950s could definitely take beating while a Civic from 2008 would be out of comission after crashing once.
> Because of design philosophy...not because of technology. We can make a car WAY tougher than the 1950 Chevy now if we wanted to. But than it wouldn't get the gas mileage of the Honda Civic. Or be as safe. Or have all the technology and convenience. Look at a tank from 1950 and compare it to a modern one where combat is the primary purpose. It has more firepower, more speed AND more armor to take more damage before it's out of commission.
>
> Star Trek reused old ship models for real world reasons of BUDGET...not because it makes logical sense to be using designs that are 100 year old as a space combat ship.
I think you can add in fan service and recognizability as well. It’s easier for fans to know off the top “that’s a Miranda” or “that’s a Excelsior” because they’ve been around for almost every iteration of Trek in some form (visual and/or referenced). Unless it was story specific (Defiant in DS9, for example), how many new ship classes/designs that are unique have been introduced as full on replacements for older models/classes and that older one completely banished? I don’t think any Trek franchise will ever stop reusing older ship models/classes.
So you are saying the United States navy, the most powerful entity on the planet, is "doing it wrong"... Mkay.
Every Cruiser, destroyer and frigate captain in the Navy knows it's his/her duty to get between the weapon and the Carrier. It was that way when I joined, that way when retired, and I sincerely doubt it has changed one bit.
As far as your comment on Sensor tech, that's a strawman, there. who is saying they did not retrofit with an improved sensor suite? it was done in the 50s, the Navy refitting destroyers with huge radar arrays as improved picket ships. and even an old sensor at the edge of the main battlegroup's effective range is a plus. that's why Submarines employ UUVs and towed arrays, to extend the sensor capability of the ship. and YES, Virginia, Warships can, have and will carry freight, especially in something time sensitive, such as responding to an earthquake or some other disaster. MAYBE you should consider that peopole with experience in such things may know more about them that you do
I say used rather then introduced as both TNG and DS9 introduced as many if not more new ship classes as DSC but those were the blink and you'll miss it background ships that were used in one episode and never a second time (or if they were used it was stock footage from the first episode).
That is NOT what I said, so you are either to.. I will not say it. to comprehend, your you are twisting things to salvage your E-Peen which is what you always do. I'm done with the thread. go ahead and push the "I win" button. I have much better things to do that argue. but one last word of advice. Do come out of mom's basement before you are 40... there is a whole wide world out there
Don't.
You know what... I'm just gonna close this to prevent a forum fire.
Reminder to all... the Flag button exists for a reason.