and yet again, disco is federation...so why is the crossfield not a cstore buy? why are the uniforms not a cstore buy? they have the combat pet from it...why not other things?
your point is ok for other things, but this falls flat, based on your stance of not a major faction. disco is feddy. is it not?
I've explained this to you several times already, you just keep ignoring it because it doesn't fit your agenda.
The Crossfield class was a highly experimental ship class made to test the spore drive. There are only two known to exist, so its like the Jellyfish, and the Franklin, in terms of its rarity/limited availability. Thus it wouldn't be a normal Zen store ship since it isn't a normal ship like a Galaxy, Intrepid, Defiant, etc. etc.
The 3189 DSC uniform is from the far future, and thus, isn't something normally available to 2409 Feds, and would likewise not be a zen store item(at least a normal zen store item) like most other far future items like the ENT-J, Klein, Verne, Paradox, etc.
We only saw one Prometheus class ship, only two Intrepids and only one Sovereign in the shows.
'Rarity' isn't an argument. If 'only two of them existed' is going to be an excuse for making a ship rare, then only two players should be able to get it because the moment you allow more of them to have it, it's not that rare anymore.
Most of it is good but the themselves missions could use some work, I'm not a big fan of Patrols and TFOs, personally I prefer the classic mission design, what's wrong with just shooting up a hallway full of enemies.
My opinion. Best expansion was the delta quadrant. Best season was the voth content.
Yeah of the Klingon wasn’t anywhere close.
I have been playing sto since it’s original beta and their has been a quality and quantity drop in recent years and it has been on purpose.
Was it the lack of missions? Not necessarily. The voth season didn’t have any mission’s. There was stuff to do.
All the past year has been is repeating two’s over and over again.
Even the legendary packs haven’t been good. First pack 300 dollars and many ships. The next legendary packs have 4 ships and still 300 dollars. Cryptic says that it was because the first pack took too much resources. Find. Lower the price. No? Ok there is a problem.
Is it hard to update a 13 year old game? Damn straight. Don’t make new tech or systems because that really could break the game. They should do what they already were good at. Adventure zones and battle zones (like the badlands and similar).
We only saw one Prometheus class ship, only two Intrepids and only one Sovereign in the shows.
'Rarity' isn't an argument. If 'only two of them existed' is going to be an excuse for making a ship rare, then only two players should be able to get it because the moment you allow more of them to have it, it's not that rare anymore.
The Prometheus, Intrepid, and Sovereign were new ships classes when we saw them. However, there is nothing in canon stating these ship classes were going to be limited in development like the Crossfield was. They were all designed to be mass produced ships, we just saw the first ones. Total false comparison fallacy.
This second point doesn't even make sense. Within the context of STO's plot only the singular player exists, and all other players don't. So there is only ever the one player in the game, and thus, only the singular player possibly flying these ships. Not to mention being rare isn't being limited to only two of something... that isn't what rare means. Rare cards in trading card games have hundreds printed. That makes them rare compared to the literally thousands, millions, of prints of more common cards.
I love seeing people flail around trying to justify things they know they can't.
I'm not Coldnapalm.
And you're trying to negate a key characteristic (rarity) by pointlessly talking about other ones (novelty). Of course they were new ships, so was the Crossfield back then. They're all old designs now, there's no reason why there can't be more Crossfields when there are more Intrepids.
Obviously the design wasn't kept secret very well.
So yeah, that last sentence of yours applies to your own reasoning just perfectly.
The Prometheus, Intrepid, and Sovereign were new ships classes when we saw them. However, there is nothing in canon stating these ship classes were going to be limited in development like the Crossfield was.
There's nothing in canon stating the Crossfield class was going to be limited development, only that they're new and experimental when the show begins. Same deal as the Excelsior class when we first see it. Or the Defiant class, for that matter.
I hate this forum software sometimes. Every time I go to quote someone it brings up like 2-3 other quotes from ages ago and gets them all mixed up in order... fixed.
And you're trying to negate a key characteristic (rarity) by pointlessly talking about other ones (novelty). Of course they were new ships, so was the Crossfield back then. They're all old designs now, there's no reason why there can't be more Crossfields when there are more Intrepids.
Obviously the design wasn't kept secret very well.
I was talking about sheer rarity in both cases. Rare =/= only two are you so tried to equate it as. There can be hundreds of something, and it still be rare. Rare cars, trading cards, book editions, etc. all work the same way.
And there is a perfectly valid reason why there can't be more Crossfields. It was made for a specific purpose. Just like there is a reason there can't be more of Spock's Jellyfish ship. It isn't mass produced in universe because it was made for a very specific purpose.
And the design was kept a very good secret since, you know, no one in the present day Federation knew how the Mycelium tech worked, and we needed Section 31 dark secrets to make the holo Stamets to tell us how it worked. He isn't going to go around telling the Federation how to make more either.
I'm not sure why thats difficult for you to grasp, but many things work like that in real life don't ya know?
Except it is mass produced. There are probably hundreds or at least dozens of them flying around in the game right now.
Oh, and the show's premise of keeping everything secret made no sense either. The mycelial network is everywhere. It's like trying to hide subspace and keep its existence secret.
Anyway, the point still stands that if 'the ship is rare in-universe' was a good reason to release it through a lockbox, then its rarity in-universe should be leading. That can mean a lot of things, but allowing hundreds of them to fly around, creating three different versions of it and even have multiple of them in a single instance, isn't one of them.
Perhaps you should just accept that there is no good, consistent correlation between in-show rarity of a ship and its rarity in the game - and that it is thus a lame excuse to create artificial scarcity in the game by pointing towards in-show rarity. Or else the Son'a dreadnought should be just as rare as the Crossfield, for example. There was only one such dreadnought too, after all.
Besides these examples and the ones I've already given previously showing that your explanation doesn't hold, it's not like there aren't any other cases where Cryptic did whatever they wanted - despite it not making an iota of sense from a show lore perspective. Just look at the Inquiry class if you need more examples to understand the point here.
Long story short: if 'in-show' rarity is to be an excuse to make things rare in the game, then this principle should be followed consistently. If it's not, it cannot serve as an explanation for anything.
In other words: If you're not going to maintain a consistent relationship between two factors, then the relation between the two will be non-existent. Trying to explain one through the other then becomes kind of pointless.
I'm not sure why such common sense must be so hard to grasp for some.
Perhaps you should just accept there is, and that making fallacious arguments like ignoring gameplay and story segregation, and the actual definition of rare, doesn't counter them.
Perhaps you should try to understand something before replying to it. If you're going to argue that 'in-show rarity must lead to in-game rarity' then you've just argued that there is no separation between gameplay and story.
And the Son'a Dred is even more rare then several of the Crossfield classes because its an R&D promo ship, whereas you can get a Crossfield from a lockbox. It literally is rare as is. So am I to take this as you don't know how people get the Son'a dred?
Once again, try to understand someone before blindly trying to tell them they're wrong.
There was one Son'a dread in the show. There were two Crossfields (and then none, as they were kept 'secret'). That's nearly the same, so they should be nearly as easily obtained.
But hey, indeed. They aren't. One is indeed a promo ship, the other a lock box one.
Congratulations, you've just proven yourself that the relation between show and game-rarity doesn't hold and thereby disproven your own previous statement. Feel free to read back if you want to understand the implications of that - or lack thereof, as it basically means that Cryptic can do - and has done - whatever the f they want when it comes to releasing ships, irrespective of whatever fanboy theories you try to launch at everyone here in an effort to pretend there's some logic behind it because you simply MUST defend them.
Anyway, I've wasted enough time on someone who's constantly contradicting himself because he'd rather make a fool of himself defending Cryptic than admitting the company sometimes does things arbitrarily.
I mean, you've contradicted yourself so many times now, it's not even funny anymore. In case you hadn't noticed, it was you who stated that a ship has to be rare in the game because it was rare in the show - and then you're arguing that it doesn't matter - and that the two can thus be separated - because gameplay is different from show lore.
Well duh, of course it is. Don't worry, most of us knew. Most of us also understood the implications of that - namely that one thing (in-show rarity) isn't an argument for something else (keeping things rare in the game - which isn't done in so many cases exactly because it wouldn't work out very well).
I don't know why you feel the need to keep stating one thing while being perfectly aware of key facts that refute your own statement...
But maybe try to argue less Som, and listen to arguments a bit more. You could've had the insight most people in this thread already had when you started this pointless discussion.
I'm honestly confused about the point that you guys are debating. You both seem to agree on the absolute fact that level of rarity in the shows does not translate to level of rarity in game. By Cryptic's logic, one of the most numerous and mass produced ships ever (the JH bug ship) is equally as rare as the twin-prototype Crossfield class. The same goes for the USS Copy/paste (Inquiry) being in a promo-box. They clearly do this stuff based on some kind of market research/data that tells them which method will make the most money, and nothing any of us say will ever change it. At this point people just need to deal with it
And yes, the Inquiry is an obvious exception to the rest of the ships in this category. That doesn't negate the fact that all the other ships in said category fall within this same framing. There is always the exception that proves the rule, and, like the above, trying to argue from the position of the Inquiry is also obviously in bad faith.
The JH bug doesn't either. It was an extremely mass produced ship. So we're not just talking about one exception here. Honestly, there is nothing to be gained from a failed attempt to argue Cryptic's rarity rules make sense in-universe. We all just need to accept it's a business and these rules are about sales.
How cute. I can't accept logic so I'll just cry that everyone else is arguing in 'bad faith'.
Since I promised not to waste too much time here anymore, I'll just repeat what I stated before, since you couldn't refute it (except by said crying about 'bad faith') :
Long story short: if 'in-show' rarity is to be an excuse to make things rare in the game, then this principle should be followed consistently. If it's not, it cannot serve as an explanation for anything.
In other words: If you're not going to maintain a consistent relationship between two factors, then the relation between the two will be non-existent. Trying to explain one through the other then becomes kind of pointless.
And yes, the Inquiry is an obvious exception to the rest of the ships in this category. That doesn't negate the fact that all the other ships in said category fall within this same framing. There is always the exception that proves the rule, and, like the above, trying to argue from the position of the Inquiry is also obviously in bad faith.
Honestly, there is nothing to be gained from a failed attempt to argue Cryptic's rarity rules make sense in-universe. We all just need to accept it's a business and these rules are about sales.
Yup, accepting that is what a rational person would do. Accept the overwhelming amount of evidence and, where needed, adjust his opinion.
But of course it's easier to just complain about such evidence being presented.
Long story short: if 'in-show' rarity is to be an excuse to make things rare in the game, then this principle should be followed consistently. ]
And it has been with a singular exception.
Rare ships in the shows/movies, like the Franklin, Jellyfish, Crossfield, Vengeance, Son'a dred, and Annorax are likewise rare ships in-game because they are locked behind lockbox, lobi, or R&D packs, and not normal C-store ships.
Your argument is in bad faith because you are implying Cryptic isn't doing something they quite demonstrably are.
It has not. Read back and look up the many examples given.
Even the ships you listed are released through different methods that will lead to differing amounts of them being available in the game. And outside those listed by you are even more examples that prove it's not followed consistently and that there is no link between in-game and in-show rarity. Again, read back. Examples start at the top of this page.
I know following the conversation, and actually reading people's posts, has never been your strong suit, but do at least try so you don't embarrass yourself further... though I doubt you will.
I've said it before, but you are obviously an intelligent person and you make a lot of good posts. Unfortunately you are also extremely rude, and your rudeness actually detracts from the value of your posts. The above quotes are just from this one page. Just this page. Can you imagine how many you make on a daily basis, from all the threads you post in?
I honestly hope you can get over this urge you have to end your posts with some petty attack on the person you are arguing with. Not only will it make your comments better, but it will actually make you feel better as a person to not be releasing that negativity all the time.
My opinion. Best expansion was the delta quadrant. Best season was the voth content.
Yeah of the Klingon wasn’t anywhere close.
I have been playing sto since it’s original beta and their has been a quality and quantity drop in recent years and it has been on purpose.
Was it the lack of missions? Not necessarily. The voth season didn’t have any mission’s. There was stuff to do.
All the past year has been is repeating two’s over and over again.
Even the legendary packs haven’t been good. First pack 300 dollars and many ships. The next legendary packs have 4 ships and still 300 dollars. Cryptic says that it was because the first pack took too much resources. Find. Lower the price. No? Ok there is a problem.
Is it hard to update a 13 year old game? Damn straight. Don’t make new tech or systems because that really could break the game. They should do what they already were good at. Adventure zones and battle zones (like the badlands and similar).
I agree.
I want to see more zones.
I was happy to pay for a big ship pack a year ago.
But in the end, there's only so many ships you can use and I already have many ones I don't get around using. So I didn't get the new pack with four ships, even though the Fed ones look amazing.
All that being said, I did like the newer Klingon-oriented TFO's. To hell with honour has everything a good TFO needs: an opportunity for players to go where they want, a big map, the ability to complete the mission faster if you're a good player (so no obvious or hidden time gates).
The one over Rura Penthe was fine too - although it is time gated, at least there's some natural progression within the mission.
If they'd just remove the time gates from the patrols - the revamp of which ties in to the Klingon/mycelial weapon story, to take things a bit broader than just YoK - then it's alright.
There's nothing in canon stating the Crossfield class was going to be limited development, only that they're new and experimental when the show begins. Same deal as the Excelsior class when we first see it. Or the Defiant class, for that matter.
Except for the fact that they were made to test the Spore drive, and the spore drive was classified and shelved following Discovery S2, meaning no more Crossfields were made to test something that wasn't being tested, and the Federation was denying even existed.
Watching the shows helps.
Whoa, ease up on the condescension there.
The Excelsior class was made to test the Transwarp drive. That project was also shelved. Considering they were still very much at war (cold as it mostly was) with the Klingons, it's safe to assume any new project Starfleet was invilved in was considered classified.
The transwarp drive never worked, though, nor could it travel through time - which is, I presume, the whole reason everything relating to it and Discovery was classified to begin with, so Control wouldn't be able to duplicate the drive and use it to follow Discovery - plus the whole issue with misuse of the network having the possibility of wiping out all life in the multiverse and also that in order to use the drive, you basically need to either subject someone to genetic engineering - a massive no-no for the Federation - or capture and subject to extreme torture a being that is at least sentient if not sapient.
Still doesn't really explain why they didn't just do the same thing they did with the Excelsior decades later - replace all the spore drive stuff with a regular warp drive (which I think it already had anyway) and replace all the science labs dedicated to the spore drive and Mycelial network with regular science labs and just keep building the design - it seemed like a fairly potent mix of science vessel and combat ship.
And also...I wanna know what happened to the Crossfield itself, since we know Starfleet always names the first ship of a given class after that class, and Crossfield is the canon class name since one of the Discovery senior staff (Possibly Stamets) referred to it as such in one of the S1 or S2 episodes - I don't remember which one it was.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
The "golden rule" means treating other people the way you (personally) want to be treated. It has nothing to do with anyone else's behavior at all, only your own. Like I said you are very smart, but extremely rude. That has nothing to do with the "golden rule" or anyone else's behavior. The good news is, it's something you can change
The "golden rule" means treating other people the way you (personally) want to be treated. It has nothing to do with anyone else's behavior at all, only your own. Like I said you are very smart, but extremely rude. That has nothing to do with the "golden rule" or anyone else's behavior. The good news is, it's something you can change
The golden rule is treat others as you wish to be treated.
Correct so far.
They have acted this way, indicating they wish to be treated this way, so I do.
Wrong. The golden rule only relates to your personal behavior, not anyone else's. The golden rule has nothing to do with treating other people badly, even if you think they deserve it.
Believe me, I know what you're trying to say; you certainly aren't the first person to try to be clever and twist that 'rule' to justify their own bad behavior. But it's not what the 'rule' means, and you aren't doing yourself or anyone else any favors with the constant rudeness.
Comments
We only saw one Prometheus class ship, only two Intrepids and only one Sovereign in the shows.
'Rarity' isn't an argument. If 'only two of them existed' is going to be an excuse for making a ship rare, then only two players should be able to get it because the moment you allow more of them to have it, it's not that rare anymore.
Yeah of the Klingon wasn’t anywhere close.
I have been playing sto since it’s original beta and their has been a quality and quantity drop in recent years and it has been on purpose.
Was it the lack of missions? Not necessarily. The voth season didn’t have any mission’s. There was stuff to do.
All the past year has been is repeating two’s over and over again.
Even the legendary packs haven’t been good. First pack 300 dollars and many ships. The next legendary packs have 4 ships and still 300 dollars. Cryptic says that it was because the first pack took too much resources. Find. Lower the price. No? Ok there is a problem.
Is it hard to update a 13 year old game? Damn straight. Don’t make new tech or systems because that really could break the game. They should do what they already were good at. Adventure zones and battle zones (like the badlands and similar).
I'm not Coldnapalm.
And you're trying to negate a key characteristic (rarity) by pointlessly talking about other ones (novelty). Of course they were new ships, so was the Crossfield back then. They're all old designs now, there's no reason why there can't be more Crossfields when there are more Intrepids.
Obviously the design wasn't kept secret very well.
So yeah, that last sentence of yours applies to your own reasoning just perfectly.
There's nothing in canon stating the Crossfield class was going to be limited development, only that they're new and experimental when the show begins. Same deal as the Excelsior class when we first see it. Or the Defiant class, for that matter.
Except it is mass produced. There are probably hundreds or at least dozens of them flying around in the game right now.
Oh, and the show's premise of keeping everything secret made no sense either. The mycelial network is everywhere. It's like trying to hide subspace and keep its existence secret.
Anyway, the point still stands that if 'the ship is rare in-universe' was a good reason to release it through a lockbox, then its rarity in-universe should be leading. That can mean a lot of things, but allowing hundreds of them to fly around, creating three different versions of it and even have multiple of them in a single instance, isn't one of them.
Perhaps you should just accept that there is no good, consistent correlation between in-show rarity of a ship and its rarity in the game - and that it is thus a lame excuse to create artificial scarcity in the game by pointing towards in-show rarity. Or else the Son'a dreadnought should be just as rare as the Crossfield, for example. There was only one such dreadnought too, after all.
Besides these examples and the ones I've already given previously showing that your explanation doesn't hold, it's not like there aren't any other cases where Cryptic did whatever they wanted - despite it not making an iota of sense from a show lore perspective. Just look at the Inquiry class if you need more examples to understand the point here.
In other words: If you're not going to maintain a consistent relationship between two factors, then the relation between the two will be non-existent. Trying to explain one through the other then becomes kind of pointless.
I'm not sure why such common sense must be so hard to grasp for some.
Perhaps you should try to understand something before replying to it. If you're going to argue that 'in-show rarity must lead to in-game rarity' then you've just argued that there is no separation between gameplay and story.
Once again, try to understand someone before blindly trying to tell them they're wrong.
There was one Son'a dread in the show. There were two Crossfields (and then none, as they were kept 'secret'). That's nearly the same, so they should be nearly as easily obtained.
But hey, indeed. They aren't. One is indeed a promo ship, the other a lock box one.
Congratulations, you've just proven yourself that the relation between show and game-rarity doesn't hold and thereby disproven your own previous statement. Feel free to read back if you want to understand the implications of that - or lack thereof, as it basically means that Cryptic can do - and has done - whatever the f they want when it comes to releasing ships, irrespective of whatever fanboy theories you try to launch at everyone here in an effort to pretend there's some logic behind it because you simply MUST defend them.
I mean, you've contradicted yourself so many times now, it's not even funny anymore. In case you hadn't noticed, it was you who stated that a ship has to be rare in the game because it was rare in the show - and then you're arguing that it doesn't matter - and that the two can thus be separated - because gameplay is different from show lore.
Well duh, of course it is. Don't worry, most of us knew. Most of us also understood the implications of that - namely that one thing (in-show rarity) isn't an argument for something else (keeping things rare in the game - which isn't done in so many cases exactly because it wouldn't work out very well).
I don't know why you feel the need to keep stating one thing while being perfectly aware of key facts that refute your own statement...
But maybe try to argue less Som, and listen to arguments a bit more. You could've had the insight most people in this thread already had when you started this pointless discussion.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
The JH bug doesn't either. It was an extremely mass produced ship. So we're not just talking about one exception here. Honestly, there is nothing to be gained from a failed attempt to argue Cryptic's rarity rules make sense in-universe. We all just need to accept it's a business and these rules are about sales.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Since I promised not to waste too much time here anymore, I'll just repeat what I stated before, since you couldn't refute it (except by said crying about 'bad faith') :
Yup, accepting that is what a rational person would do. Accept the overwhelming amount of evidence and, where needed, adjust his opinion.
But of course it's easier to just complain about such evidence being presented.
It has not. Read back and look up the many examples given.
Even the ships you listed are released through different methods that will lead to differing amounts of them being available in the game. And outside those listed by you are even more examples that prove it's not followed consistently and that there is no link between in-game and in-show rarity. Again, read back. Examples start at the top of this page.
I've said it before, but you are obviously an intelligent person and you make a lot of good posts. Unfortunately you are also extremely rude, and your rudeness actually detracts from the value of your posts. The above quotes are just from this one page. Just this page. Can you imagine how many you make on a daily basis, from all the threads you post in?
I honestly hope you can get over this urge you have to end your posts with some petty attack on the person you are arguing with. Not only will it make your comments better, but it will actually make you feel better as a person to not be releasing that negativity all the time.
I agree.
I want to see more zones.
I was happy to pay for a big ship pack a year ago.
But in the end, there's only so many ships you can use and I already have many ones I don't get around using. So I didn't get the new pack with four ships, even though the Fed ones look amazing.
All that being said, I did like the newer Klingon-oriented TFO's. To hell with honour has everything a good TFO needs: an opportunity for players to go where they want, a big map, the ability to complete the mission faster if you're a good player (so no obvious or hidden time gates).
The one over Rura Penthe was fine too - although it is time gated, at least there's some natural progression within the mission.
If they'd just remove the time gates from the patrols - the revamp of which ties in to the Klingon/mycelial weapon story, to take things a bit broader than just YoK - then it's alright.
Whoa, ease up on the condescension there.
The Excelsior class was made to test the Transwarp drive. That project was also shelved. Considering they were still very much at war (cold as it mostly was) with the Klingons, it's safe to assume any new project Starfleet was invilved in was considered classified.
Still doesn't really explain why they didn't just do the same thing they did with the Excelsior decades later - replace all the spore drive stuff with a regular warp drive (which I think it already had anyway) and replace all the science labs dedicated to the spore drive and Mycelial network with regular science labs and just keep building the design - it seemed like a fairly potent mix of science vessel and combat ship.
And also...I wanna know what happened to the Crossfield itself, since we know Starfleet always names the first ship of a given class after that class, and Crossfield is the canon class name since one of the Discovery senior staff (Possibly Stamets) referred to it as such in one of the S1 or S2 episodes - I don't remember which one it was.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
The "golden rule" means treating other people the way you (personally) want to be treated. It has nothing to do with anyone else's behavior at all, only your own. Like I said you are very smart, but extremely rude. That has nothing to do with the "golden rule" or anyone else's behavior. The good news is, it's something you can change
Correct so far.
Wrong. The golden rule only relates to your personal behavior, not anyone else's. The golden rule has nothing to do with treating other people badly, even if you think they deserve it.
Believe me, I know what you're trying to say; you certainly aren't the first person to try to be clever and twist that 'rule' to justify their own bad behavior. But it's not what the 'rule' means, and you aren't doing yourself or anyone else any favors with the constant rudeness.