Unfortunately we now live in a word that's convinced people that their opinions are facts as long as they believe them. Which is beyond false. Convinced that if something does not cater to their specific interests, that it's bad, and everyone else's fault. Also false.
I personally can't stand ToS. I appreciate it for what it adds narratively, and to the general lore. But I painfully struggled to get through it and will never watch it again. But that's just me.
I respect if people hate Star Trek now. I won't call it "nu-trek" because it's not. It's just Star Trek. But people need to realize that just because they hate something, doesn't make it objectively bad. Same for me and how I feel about ToS.
I think people just need to get over themselves and understand that they are not the center of the universe, and understand that just because there are people that share your opinion, does not in fact make it any more true or accurate objectively. And frankly the data does not support the idea that Star Trek at this time is doing badly. Actually the opposite.
Fandoms do not make up majorities. Fandoms are a small fraction of an audience. And more often than not, when there is hate for something, there is usually way more support for it.
With the Enterprise D, it made sense because that ship not only complimented the crew, but their families as well. The size of that ship was justified and made complete sense. From the beginning, ships of Star Trek gradually got larger a wee bit at a time...they did not suddenly explode in to unrealistic sizes out of the blue with no explanation like they did with Enterprise J and that God awful thing in the JJ Binks movies. We are talking about the times of the Enterprise 1701, and suddenly we have a ship that literally dwarfs the Enterprise D and it wasn't even holding families? What was that ships compliment, 20 or less?
At least with Voyager, they scaled back down the size of the ship to a reasonable size since it was not designed to carry people's families. It made sense. Once Enterprise came out and they introduced the Enterprise J, it got completely silly from there. That is my logic and my reasoning behind my dislike of these ridiculously large ships. Has nothing to do with age.
I'm sorry...but the Enterprise D made no sense at all. Even including the families, you could fit something like 20x the number of people on that ship...well on that ship. Wasting all that space to have a hotel in space when it is there to explore new worlds is dumb. To do it when you are sent on what is basically battle missions is MORONIC. Idiotic ship design is not something that happened in just the JJ stuff or nu-Trek. And while the Galaxy class is the most egregious of bad ship design, the other ships in the other series did have their share of issues. Be it being inconsistent in size (like gaining extra decks all of a sudden or being anywhere for 50m to 170m on screen) or just bad designs that makes no sense (hey the defiant is a warship...you know what a warship doesn't need? A good medical bay...because people NEVER get injured in a war).
God, I am so glad there is at least one other person that realizes how ridiculous and stupid the Enterprise D was. It's dimensions and staffing made absolutely no sense for it's role.
But you're right, these problems and inconsistencies are commonplace in absolutely all Trek old and new.
Many people feel that after Voyager, the Star Treks that came out after that felt...off from all the others before them. There is a reason for it, I don't think it is just in peoples heads. The ship designs are equally frowned upon. It's an endless debate that has no end, you either like the new Star Trek (if they really must call it that) or you hate it. There seems to be very few people who are indifferent. Ship design not withstanding.
Many people thought TNG was off from ToS. Many people thought DS 9 was off from what was before as well. Voyager was probably the ONLY series to not really have that happen to it. Enterprise...oh the hate that one generated. So people doing this to the nu-Trek is NOTHING NEW to the IP. And yes, it is all in your bloody head because it is all BLOODY OPINION...which is by definition in your head. Going that is bad because I feel something is off and a bunch of other people on the internet says so too is not proof of anything other than subjective projection. You want to say nu-Trek is bad...show something objectively bad. Like the kling-orc makeup being WAY to thick and bulky. Something FX reality shows CONSTANTLY says is a BAD thing as it makes the actors completely unable to emote. Or even MOVE in the case of the Michael Burnham show. Or how close the second half of Picard got to plagiarism of Mass Effect. Or if you wanna get really nit picky, you can even do things like pointing out how the FX team seems to be using video game assets for some FX in a scene that shows up for half a second and in like 2 inches of the screen on a 75 inch TV. But going I think it feel off...so that is true is nonsense. That just makes it true for YOU as YOUR OPINION. Not an objective truth you seem to want to make it out to be.
And after the first season of both, they eventually settled in to those. The people who hate the new Star Trek are not settling in to those...and it's been years later.
ABSOLUTELY false. It took two season for most of the grognards to calm down...not one. And considering that Picard and LD doesn't even have a season 2 yet, claiming people have not settled in is kinda disingenuous. Hell season 1 of LD is pretty well received actually. Let's look at the one series that has multiple seasons so far shall we? Season 2 of the Michael Burnham show was received much...MUCH better than the first. Season 3...while I personally don't like it as much as season 2 was received even better than season 2. So your claim of people are not settling in is even false there. Yes there are people who absolutely hate all of it. But there are people to this day who love ToS who thinks TNG and what came after that are all terrible too. If you hang out in echo chambers of that, you won't realize what the general fans are doing. If you look at this board, you will realize that there are people...quite a few of them...who like the new stuff. Hell, I didn't think I would like the new stuff after the Michael Burnham show season 1, but I LOVE LD, liked the first half of Picard and thought season 2 of the aforementioned show was not bad and season 3 was mixed. So...the fans are settling in (and really LD I think helped a LOT with this).
If you say so. I can assure you regardless of what you or I think about "most people" I can assure you the new Star Trek with their Cowboys in space theme of nonstop action will never garner my attention like the more intellectual, character driven stories of the old Trek. I will never get on board with the new Trek, and if I am of this opinion, I am sure there are many others. So then there is that.
You cannot talk people in to liking something they hate no more than I can talk you in to hating something you love. There are just too many reasons for me to hate the new Trek for me to just overlook a couple of issues that I might have had with the old Trek.
Also, to the person that said that I am stating everything as a fact, I can't help but laugh at this because this whole thread is based on opinions...sooo, huh?
> @navar#3536 said: > If you say so. I can assure you regardless of what you or I think about "most people" I can assure you the new Star Trek with their Cowboys in space theme of nonstop action will never garner my attention like the more intellectual, character driven stories of the old Trek. I will never get on board with the new Trek, and if I am of this opinion, I am sure there are many others. So then there is that. > > You cannot talk people in to liking something they hate no more than I can talk you in to hating something you love. There are just too many reasons for me to hate the new Trek for me to just overlook a couple of issues that I might have had with the old Trek. > > Also, to the person that said that I am stating everything as a fact, I can't help but laugh at this because this whole thread is based on opinions...sooo, huh?
The difference being, is that spouting hate literally adds nothing and contributes nothing to the conversation OR the fandom. If anything it just darkens the whole experience. Agains, it's fine to be constructive. You can like something but still criticize it. But that's not what we're talking about. You used the word "hate".
It's just straight up negativity with no purpose. So again, I respect that you hate it and I won't waste breath trying to convince you. But that hate is really not important as it brings nothing to the table. Because it's not even constructive, it's you and the "many others" stomping their feet really loud thinking that if you hate something loud enough the world will change just for you.
It's fine to hate a something. You're human, you are allowed to have your feelings. But at least be constructive. Because to enter a fandom space and TRIBBLE all over everything, is just. Well it's sad. Also, it's a damn tv show and you are clearly taking it way too seriously. Maybe remind yourself that none of this is real, and that if you feel this compelled to loudly TRIBBLE/hate on everything in a space where people are trying to enjoy themselves, then maybe the content isn't the issue.
So sick of people claiming to be fans but then just spout endless hate on it, trying to bring downs everyone's enjoyment simply because they don't enjoy it. I've seen so many positive threads be hijacked by haters because they feel it's necessary to share their hate. It's exhausting. It's childish.
If you hate it this much, no one is forcing you to engage with the content. Reply to this if you see fit. But I've said my piece.
*Goes for a walk to also remind nd myself that this GAME and this SHOW really have very little impact on real life because it's entertainment.*
With the Enterprise D, it made sense because that ship not only complimented the crew, but their families as well. The size of that ship was justified and made complete sense. From the beginning, ships of Star Trek gradually got larger a wee bit at a time...they did not suddenly explode in to unrealistic sizes out of the blue with no explanation like they did with Enterprise J and that God awful thing in the JJ Binks movies. We are talking about the times of the Enterprise 1701, and suddenly we have a ship that literally dwarfs the Enterprise D and it wasn't even holding families? What was that ships compliment, 20 or less?
At least with Voyager, they scaled back down the size of the ship to a reasonable size since it was not designed to carry people's families. It made sense. Once Enterprise came out and they introduced the Enterprise J, it got completely silly from there. That is my logic and my reasoning behind my dislike of these ridiculously large ships. Has nothing to do with age.
I'm sorry...but the Enterprise D made no sense at all. Even including the families, you could fit something like 20x the number of people on that ship...well on that ship. Wasting all that space to have a hotel in space when it is there to explore new worlds is dumb. To do it when you are sent on what is basically battle missions is MORONIC. Idiotic ship design is not something that happened in just the JJ stuff or nu-Trek. And while the Galaxy class is the most egregious of bad ship design, the other ships in the other series did have their share of issues. Be it being inconsistent in size (like gaining extra decks all of a sudden or being anywhere for 50m to 170m on screen) or just bad designs that makes no sense (hey the defiant is a warship...you know what a warship doesn't need? A good medical bay...because people NEVER get injured in a war).
God, I am so glad there is at least one other person that realizes how ridiculous and stupid the Enterprise D was. It's dimensions and staffing made absolutely no sense for it's role.
But you're right, these problems and inconsistencies are commonplace in absolutely all Trek old and new.
Many people feel that after Voyager, the Star Treks that came out after that felt...off from all the others before them. There is a reason for it, I don't think it is just in peoples heads. The ship designs are equally frowned upon. It's an endless debate that has no end, you either like the new Star Trek (if they really must call it that) or you hate it. There seems to be very few people who are indifferent. Ship design not withstanding.
Many people thought TNG was off from ToS. Many people thought DS 9 was off from what was before as well. Voyager was probably the ONLY series to not really have that happen to it. Enterprise...oh the hate that one generated. So people doing this to the nu-Trek is NOTHING NEW to the IP. And yes, it is all in your bloody head because it is all BLOODY OPINION...which is by definition in your head. Going that is bad because I feel something is off and a bunch of other people on the internet says so too is not proof of anything other than subjective projection. You want to say nu-Trek is bad...show something objectively bad. Like the kling-orc makeup being WAY to thick and bulky. Something FX reality shows CONSTANTLY says is a BAD thing as it makes the actors completely unable to emote. Or even MOVE in the case of the Michael Burnham show. Or how close the second half of Picard got to plagiarism of Mass Effect. Or if you wanna get really nit picky, you can even do things like pointing out how the FX team seems to be using video game assets for some FX in a scene that shows up for half a second and in like 2 inches of the screen on a 75 inch TV. But going I think it feel off...so that is true is nonsense. That just makes it true for YOU as YOUR OPINION. Not an objective truth you seem to want to make it out to be.
And after the first season of both, they eventually settled in to those. The people who hate the new Star Trek are not settling in to those...and it's been years later.
ABSOLUTELY false. It took two season for most of the grognards to calm down...not one. And considering that Picard and LD doesn't even have a season 2 yet, claiming people have not settled in is kinda disingenuous. Hell season 1 of LD is pretty well received actually. Let's look at the one series that has multiple seasons so far shall we? Season 2 of the Michael Burnham show was received much...MUCH better than the first. Season 3...while I personally don't like it as much as season 2 was received even better than season 2. So your claim of people are not settling in is even false there. Yes there are people who absolutely hate all of it. But there are people to this day who love ToS who thinks TNG and what came after that are all terrible too. If you hang out in echo chambers of that, you won't realize what the general fans are doing. If you look at this board, you will realize that there are people...quite a few of them...who like the new stuff. Hell, I didn't think I would like the new stuff after the Michael Burnham show season 1, but I LOVE LD, liked the first half of Picard and thought season 2 of the aforementioned show was not bad and season 3 was mixed. So...the fans are settling in (and really LD I think helped a LOT with this).
If you say so. I can assure you regardless of what you or I think about "most people" I can assure you the new Star Trek with their Cowboys in space theme of nonstop action will never garner my attention like the more intellectual, character driven stories of the old Trek. I will never get on board with the new Trek, and if I am of this opinion, I am sure there are many others. So then there is that.
You cannot talk people in to liking something they hate no more than I can talk you in to hating something you love. There are just too many reasons for me to hate the new Trek for me to just overlook a couple of issues that I might have had with the old Trek.
Also, to the person that said that I am stating everything as a fact, I can't help but laugh at this because this whole thread is based on opinions...sooo, huh?
You do know that ToS was called by critics of the time, cowboys in space...RIGHT? And you do know that people who love ToS and hate everything after it are not alone either. The problem is, you are making disingenuous arguments in reference to nu-Trek as two of the three shows that cover has only one season. You are also unwilling to accept views that contradict your own. All the issues you bring up in nu-Trek is issues old Trek had as well...you just want to ignore it for the shows you like but bring it up as some sort of war crimes when they are from ones you don't. That is not fair and once again, you are being disingenuous.
I don't care if you like the show or hate the show...I just want you to treat your criticism or defense of the shows to be EQUAL. Also what part of me calling the new shows nu-Trek or Discovery the Michael Burnham show makes you think I am attempting to get you to like those shows? I mean I LOVE LD...but other than that, to me, they are at best not terrible...at worse...terrible. I'm not trying to convince you to like the show...I am trying to convince you to be FAIR. But that seems to be beyond what you are capable of through your hatred.
I get what you are saying, but the points you are bringing up applies to everyone here who as an opinion, heh. It's not just me who is being stubborn, I think we are all pretty guilty of that, heh.
That is a good video, though he has the crew size wrong. It was supposed to carry a crew of around a thousand with about four thousand civilians in addition to it so he should have had five of those blocks of people on the hull instead of one (not that even that would take up much of the hull area). It does drive the point home about how huge the thing really is though, and five thousand people would still rattle around in it so it would still seem as empty as he points out.
Also something he did not take into consideration (probably because it is so obscure that the people who made those third party maps probably did not include it in the deck plans) is that thirty five percent of the ship is totally empty unfinished space that is there for future expansion if the ship gets thrown across the galaxy or something (which is also why it carries the crew's dependents) and the population expands in the years, decades, or whatever it takes to get back home. And in its wartime role some of the empty deck space is probably used as a place to park ground vehicles and HQ shelters and whatnot ready for deployment by transporter or whatever, and possibly acting as a convenient assembly and training area.
In wartime mode the Galaxy class is a heavily armed self-escorting troop carrier capable of carrying up to 6,000 troops and all their gear and vehicles.
In its normal ultra-long deployment explorer mode (which Enterprise itself never seemed to be sent on, it got all the diplomatic stuff that needed a big impressive looking ship that the locals probably didn't realize was over a third empty space) it probably had a lot of space turned over to storage and manufacturing (not everything can be replicated in those little wall units, if at all (like parts of photon torpedoes), and its life support equipment was way oversized for its usual crew and passengers, able to support up to 15,000 refugees in an emergency evacuation.
The "cowboys in space" thing came about because Roddenberry could not sell the show the way he thought of it (which was "Hornblower in space") to a Hollywood tired of Victorian tall ship stories, so he dropped the Hornblower reference in his sales pitch and used the most popular show on TV at the time, which happened to be the western "Wagon Train". He sort of poked fun at having to do that later on with episodes like Spectre of the Gun but it really was not much like a western otherwise.
Its a tad funny when looking at how Tech and Trek seem well, unbalanced I mean look at a 1980's Macintosh PC compared to now. Better Designs and better tech gets smaller not bigger then some directors egos if that's the case. AND their is Canon in the game and in all Star trek that proves this. "Ahem The mission Sunrise and Kaldo Dans ship or however you spell his name?" Inherently the ships design seems the size of the shuttle however with newer "Tech" its larger on the inside of the ship and packs the same firepower as most war tech of TNG universe, However like the mission says seems the size of a shuttle. I love that series of missions, and has nice gear to boot. That is more in line with how actual Technology evolves, over time, at least in my opinion...
"bortaS bIr jablu'DI' reH QaQqu' nay'"
Revenge is a Dish, Best Served Cold ~ Khan Noonien Singh
Comments
I personally can't stand ToS. I appreciate it for what it adds narratively, and to the general lore. But I painfully struggled to get through it and will never watch it again. But that's just me.
I respect if people hate Star Trek now. I won't call it "nu-trek" because it's not. It's just Star Trek. But people need to realize that just because they hate something, doesn't make it objectively bad. Same for me and how I feel about ToS.
I think people just need to get over themselves and understand that they are not the center of the universe, and understand that just because there are people that share your opinion, does not in fact make it any more true or accurate objectively. And frankly the data does not support the idea that Star Trek at this time is doing badly. Actually the opposite.
Fandoms do not make up majorities. Fandoms are a small fraction of an audience. And more often than not, when there is hate for something, there is usually way more support for it.
If you say so. I can assure you regardless of what you or I think about "most people" I can assure you the new Star Trek with their Cowboys in space theme of nonstop action will never garner my attention like the more intellectual, character driven stories of the old Trek. I will never get on board with the new Trek, and if I am of this opinion, I am sure there are many others. So then there is that.
You cannot talk people in to liking something they hate no more than I can talk you in to hating something you love. There are just too many reasons for me to hate the new Trek for me to just overlook a couple of issues that I might have had with the old Trek.
Also, to the person that said that I am stating everything as a fact, I can't help but laugh at this because this whole thread is based on opinions...sooo, huh?
> If you say so. I can assure you regardless of what you or I think about "most people" I can assure you the new Star Trek with their Cowboys in space theme of nonstop action will never garner my attention like the more intellectual, character driven stories of the old Trek. I will never get on board with the new Trek, and if I am of this opinion, I am sure there are many others. So then there is that.
>
> You cannot talk people in to liking something they hate no more than I can talk you in to hating something you love. There are just too many reasons for me to hate the new Trek for me to just overlook a couple of issues that I might have had with the old Trek.
>
> Also, to the person that said that I am stating everything as a fact, I can't help but laugh at this because this whole thread is based on opinions...sooo, huh?
The difference being, is that spouting hate literally adds nothing and contributes nothing to the conversation OR the fandom. If anything it just darkens the whole experience. Agains, it's fine to be constructive. You can like something but still criticize it. But that's not what we're talking about. You used the word "hate".
It's just straight up negativity with no purpose. So again, I respect that you hate it and I won't waste breath trying to convince you. But that hate is really not important as it brings nothing to the table. Because it's not even constructive, it's you and the "many others" stomping their feet really loud thinking that if you hate something loud enough the world will change just for you.
It's fine to hate a something. You're human, you are allowed to have your feelings. But at least be constructive. Because to enter a fandom space and TRIBBLE all over everything, is just. Well it's sad. Also, it's a damn tv show and you are clearly taking it way too seriously. Maybe remind yourself that none of this is real, and that if you feel this compelled to loudly TRIBBLE/hate on everything in a space where people are trying to enjoy themselves, then maybe the content isn't the issue.
So sick of people claiming to be fans but then just spout endless hate on it, trying to bring downs everyone's enjoyment simply because they don't enjoy it. I've seen so many positive threads be hijacked by haters because they feel it's necessary to share their hate. It's exhausting. It's childish.
If you hate it this much, no one is forcing you to engage with the content. Reply to this if you see fit. But I've said my piece.
*Goes for a walk to also remind nd myself that this GAME and this SHOW really have very little impact on real life because it's entertainment.*
I get what you are saying, but the points you are bringing up applies to everyone here who as an opinion, heh. It's not just me who is being stubborn, I think we are all pretty guilty of that, heh.
That is a good video, though he has the crew size wrong. It was supposed to carry a crew of around a thousand with about four thousand civilians in addition to it so he should have had five of those blocks of people on the hull instead of one (not that even that would take up much of the hull area). It does drive the point home about how huge the thing really is though, and five thousand people would still rattle around in it so it would still seem as empty as he points out.
Also something he did not take into consideration (probably because it is so obscure that the people who made those third party maps probably did not include it in the deck plans) is that thirty five percent of the ship is totally empty unfinished space that is there for future expansion if the ship gets thrown across the galaxy or something (which is also why it carries the crew's dependents) and the population expands in the years, decades, or whatever it takes to get back home. And in its wartime role some of the empty deck space is probably used as a place to park ground vehicles and HQ shelters and whatnot ready for deployment by transporter or whatever, and possibly acting as a convenient assembly and training area.
In wartime mode the Galaxy class is a heavily armed self-escorting troop carrier capable of carrying up to 6,000 troops and all their gear and vehicles.
In its normal ultra-long deployment explorer mode (which Enterprise itself never seemed to be sent on, it got all the diplomatic stuff that needed a big impressive looking ship that the locals probably didn't realize was over a third empty space) it probably had a lot of space turned over to storage and manufacturing (not everything can be replicated in those little wall units, if at all (like parts of photon torpedoes), and its life support equipment was way oversized for its usual crew and passengers, able to support up to 15,000 refugees in an emergency evacuation.
The "cowboys in space" thing came about because Roddenberry could not sell the show the way he thought of it (which was "Hornblower in space") to a Hollywood tired of Victorian tall ship stories, so he dropped the Hornblower reference in his sales pitch and used the most popular show on TV at the time, which happened to be the western "Wagon Train". He sort of poked fun at having to do that later on with episodes like Spectre of the Gun but it really was not much like a western otherwise.
"bortaS bIr jablu'DI' reH QaQqu' nay'"
Revenge is a Dish, Best Served Cold ~ Khan Noonien Singh