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I think I see why players want Carriers...

colonelmarikcolonelmarik Member Posts: 2,199 Arc User
I've often wondered why so many players seem to want carriers (or indeed, any summoner class in other games). I think an experience I just had has illuminated things for me.

I was in the queue for the Swarm. When it launched, I was flying my Pathfinder, USS FEYNMAN, and the other players were all flying carriers of various types. The mission began, they flew over to the three flight pathways we're to defend, launched their fighters, and went AFK. ALL of them. Occasionally, replacement fighters would launch, but the actual ships never moved, never responded to chat, nothing. All the other players just went AFK and let the fighters do everything for them.

I can't say it's the first time I've seen this, just not ALL the other players at the same time. Is this it? Is this why players want carriers so much, so they can go AFK and let the game grind their "rewards?"
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Post edited by baddmoonrizin on

Comments

  • mneme0mneme0 Member Posts: 498 Arc User
    I like engineering DOFFs with turrets, too, but where can I find these amazingly successful carriers you speak of? Mine are little more than Mobile Hangar Pet Disposal Systems.
  • davefenestratordavefenestrator Member Posts: 10,501 Arc User
    I've never seen that, but I have seen an AFK player now and then. I never AFK myself, I'd rather skip an event than pretend to play it.

    I like carriers just as something different to fly, the same as with science, cruisers, escorts. The same as using console sets, rep sets, different energy types, different powers.
  • tom61stotom61sto Member Posts: 3,635 Arc User
    May have been a fleet RPing real carriers, as modern carriers like Nimitz and Gerald R. Ford carriers don't typically use their onboard weapons except defensively against missiles and such. It seems that the pets were fairly effective, so that implies they were casting buffs for them, like FAW and CSV combined with the Trait Superior Area Denial. As for ignoring Zone/Team/Match chat, they may have just been in their own chat channel or voice comms. Also, no guarantee they spoke English well enough to feel like engaging in chat.

    Though, on the more negative potential, it's pretty easy to get pets to auto-launch on PC, you just right-click the launch icon now and then start them launching or hit to fire weapons once, and they just keep going. I suppose it could have been a smarter botter or multi-boxer (both against the EULA) that made sure it was less obvious than using all the same ship with similar names. However, it's not hard to setup where your weapons fire too, since pet launches can trigger weapons set to autofire, so you potentially just need to change your firing settings to fire on anything in range.
  • szerontzurszerontzur Member Posts: 2,723 Arc User
    mneme0 wrote: »
    I like engineering DOFFs with turrets, too, but where can I find these amazingly successful carriers you speak of? Mine are little more than Mobile Hangar Pet Disposal Systems.

    Ya, mine too... these guys had obviously automated the launch process somehow, because they would just launch more. I suppose they could have been there, but they never moved nor fired, nor responded to chat... sooo....

    You can right-click your hangar launch buttons to make them auto-fire like weapons.


    As for the topic itself. It really depends, for me. I have build themes were I want fighters and ones that I don't. It might be for interesting trait synergy(my Sech lasers down targets with to'duj support via mass CRF), or as a point-defense system if the ship is cumbersome/has narrow attack vectors(my Anchored Nekrid Torpedo Boat), or just because it seems cool(My Durgath with swarms of tiny fighters flying in formation/intercepting out of range targets). Conversely, I have things like my Sovereign and various gunships where I simply don't want a fighter escort.

    In fact, I was seriously considering running the Dhailkina for my new Delta Recruit. However, after testing it out on Tribble, I really don't like the Snakeheads(or any fighters) with the playstyle I have in mind for the character. (The trait also seemed to be broken/not working.)
  • protoneousprotoneous Member Posts: 2,952 Arc User
    To be honest, when I'm flying my Vo'quv carrier, I generally don't get directly engaged, and send my fighters where they're needed..
    they just went where the enemy was and set their fighters to defend them
    Aside from responding to team chat, what's the difference between what you do with your carrier and what these people are doing with their carriers? It seems you're both relying upon your pets to get the job done.
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,918 Arc User
    So they parked at optimal points and defended it.. and for some reason you have a problem with this?

    You don't even know for sure that they were AFK, maybe they just didn't want to respond to you. Maybe they were a group and they don't speak English? Maybe they are anti-social.. I don't get why this would then prompt you to come to the forums and make a thread to complain about it.

    The objective in Swarm is to hold the 3 lanes, and it sounds like they were doing that. Is the percentage of the task that they choose to automate really relevant? Is this something to complain about?

    With the 'Support Carriers,' those things have terrible handling and inertia so it doesn't surprise me that most captains tend to take them to a choke point and 'park' them. It actually sounds like a good stragegy to me, you get 3 people do do this and the whole thing is basically covered.

    I have to say, I am always surprised by the amount of people on the forum that are so concerned with how everyone else is playing. I don't get it.
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  • tigerariestigeraries Member Posts: 3,492 Arc User
    edited April 2021
    right click on the launch pets... it gets a green border... each cycle it will try to launch new pets... if pets already up, does jack. if pet dead... well you get a new one. Lets face facts, that que is strictly time gated. if the players arent asleep at wheel, you almost always only get 18 freights escaping... also carriers or ships with hanger is nice cause game treats em as npc and they do npc dmg. fighters are now more durable since becoming immune to warp core explosions. i still prefer frigate pets but sometimes you just cant use em so I use the rep pet fighters for nukura and rom.
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,918 Arc User
    protoneous wrote: »
    To be honest, when I'm flying my Vo'quv carrier, I generally don't get directly engaged, and send my fighters where they're needed..
    they just went where the enemy was and set their fighters to defend them
    Aside from responding to team chat, what's the difference between what you do with your carrier and what these people are doing with their carriers? It seems you're both relying upon your pets to get the job done.

    The difference was that they were in position to fire on the enemy, or use skills or what have you, and they didn't. In my case, my carrier wouldn't go to the attack lanes, she'd stay out of range and send the fighters in on their own. Then, if the enemy DID get close enough, I would use my weapons and skills. These people didn't. They just sat there and launched fighters periodically, which apparently they can do automatically, without needing to be there. They never moved, never fired a shot or used a skill. They never said anything in chat, and didn't respond to direct tells.

    As I said, they might have been there, just not doing anything. Maybe they had chat turned off. Anything is possible... but it sure looked like they were AFK.

    I'll also point out that this is not the only time I've seen this kind of thing, and not just in this game. For example, in Lord of the Rings Online, the Loremaster is a pet class, and is frequently used by goldsellers to farm because they can go AFK and let the pets do all the work.
    So they parked at optimal points and defended it.. and for some reason you have a problem with this?

    You don't even know for sure that they were AFK, maybe they just didn't want to respond to you. Maybe they were a group and they don't speak English? Maybe they are anti-social.. I don't get why this would then prompt you to come to the forums and make a thread to complain about it.

    The objective in Swarm is to hold the 3 lanes, and it sounds like they were doing that. Is the percentage of the task that they choose to automate really relevant? Is this something to complain about?

    With the 'Support Carriers,' those things have terrible handling and inertia so it doesn't surprise me that most captains tend to take them to a choke point and 'park' them. It actually sounds like a good stragegy to me, you get 3 people do do this and the whole thing is basically covered.

    I have to say, I am always surprised by the amount of people on the forum that are so concerned with how everyone else is playing. I don't get it.

    The thing is, if they're all AFK, the whole mission is dropped on MY shoulders. They didn't move, so I was the one who had to fly around trying to activate the Dominion ships, repair the satellites and deploy tractor mines. When the Dreadnought appeared, I was the only one who engaged it. Everything was all on ME.

    Now, to be fair, I kind of enjoyed that. The point is, I wonder at people AFK farming like these guys appeared to be doing. I wonder if it is allowed, or if it should be? Anyway, it's much ado about nothing, in the end. It is what it is.

    I can see how it would be frustrating if they weren't repairing the satellites or powering up the ships. After that, you can just park.. but having to do that part yourself would be annoying.

    Honestly though, part of it is just on Cryptic.. if you do nothing during those phases the mission just progresses and you lose nothing. The game does a very poor job of rewarding you for actually doing objectives. Once the ships are powered and the 3 satellites are done, everyone parking in one lane would be fine, but for the first part, I understand your frustration.
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  • westx211westx211 Member Posts: 42,206 Arc User
    > @colonelmarik said:
    > Ya, mine too... these guys had obviously automated the launch process somehow, because they would just launch more. I suppose they could have been there, but they never moved nor fired, nor responded to chat... sooo....

    You can right click the hangar bay icons to set them to autolaunch hangar pets.

    Also, I fly carriers because I love the idea of a carrier. Going to battle alongside several wings of fighters or frigates. It just feels cool to me. And carriers tend to be massive ships which I also enjoy.
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  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 57,973 Community Moderator
    I've been flying Flight Deck Carriers because I'm more of an active combatant even with hanger pets. Haven't really flown anything like a FULL carrier for a while, but even then I'd probably BFAW in support of my minions.

    Also my KDF flew the Blackguard a lot before getting her DSC D7. Love those elite slavers. And my DSC Fed... MW DSC Connie with Elite Class Cs. 12 stacks of Aceton 3 are fun. B)
    Also I got traits that synergize with them too, like Superior Area Denial. All the beams... ALL THE BEAMS! MUA HAHAHAHAHA
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    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
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  • doctorstegidoctorstegi Member Posts: 1,181 Arc User
    Its funny though. Here is the thing with swarm and I don't do much in that mission either for various reasons. First clean the enemy and restore jem'hadar ships = bonus marks. Second kill enemies and enable satellites = bonus marks. Now the 2 steps give a few bonus marks. Third kill dreadnought get huge amount of bonus marks. There is nothing to do in this mission when the first 2 steps are accomplished anymore but stand by the end of the lane enable autofire and kill whats incoming on the lane even the dreadnought. I don't know how many people yell in team chat leecher and afk ect... just because they are idiots and don't know how the mission works. Why do people need to fly around when they don't have too. Do I get up get coffee or something like that in the mission, yeah because with autofire my ship can handle enemies by itself without me babysitting it.

    Next lets talk about Pahvo and Dranuur Gauntlet. Same thing people sit there and protect and don't move much want to call that AFK or just simply bad TFO design. And yeah for the most part when I just sit there killing enemies and don't move I have stuff running I'm watching on the second screen. Timer and crappy mission design makes people just sit it out and that is what you get when TFO's are design to not fail so the worst of the worst gets his/hers marks without putting effort into it.

    So i doubt the people you talk about went afk right away but rather when round 3 started "evacuation". Because that that point there is nothing to do anymore other then kill red and most people can do that by just sitting there and being afk. So really if you have an issue with that you might should ask Cryptic to take out times and make TFO's so that people actually have to move like the old ones, you know the ones without timers where you have to do something to finish and earn your marks.
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  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 4,165 Arc User
    mneme0 wrote: »
    I like engineering DOFFs with turrets, too, but where can I find these amazingly successful carriers you speak of? Mine are little more than Mobile Hangar Pet Disposal Systems.
    Carriers can do pretty good damage with the right build. Take a look at https://www.sto-league.com/a-brief-guide-to-getting-the-most-out-of-hanger-pets/ if you need a few ideas. It can be a little costly to get all the parts but once you do amazingly successful carriers are doable.
  • dragon200052dragon200052 Member Posts: 41 Arc User
    Personally suggesting that AFKing is the reason why Players want carriers is a tad insulting to be honest. Personally I see myself as a bit of a carrier main almost all my characters use Carriers in one way or another this is mostly just due to liking there game play they are quite an interesting ship type to play as it gives you more stuff to command (when it wants to work).

    you can also put out some quite impressive levels of fire power when using them so really the reasons people want carriers I would say comes down to them being a niche part of star trek history and being interesting to play while now being quite powerful due to the buffs and traits over time.
  • darkbladejkdarkbladejk Member Posts: 3,698 Community Moderator
    Swarm is one of the select few TFOs where someone can do exactly what you're describing here. Aside from powering the ships in the initial phase and maybe the tractor beam launchers, there's not really much else for people to do in that queue until the dreadnought pops up and even then it's not that tough of a ship. For that matter I've done ye classic park and sparkle in there while defending my lane and I rarely fly carriers. Everything dies so quickly and generally there isn't alot of overlap between the lanes, plus they generally warp in from the same direction(s) each time. Generally I would be annoyed that folks are going AFK, but if their pets are doing all the work and actually taking things down, then those other players couldn't have been as AFK as you thought. Generally hangar pets on their own aren't going to last very long or be very strong without some buffs going out from the carrier. They depend on their carrier to do their job and vice versa. In this instance it sounds like the TFO was completed and objectives were done so I'm not seeing a problem here.
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  • protoneousprotoneous Member Posts: 2,952 Arc User
    @colonelmarik it's pretty well a no win scenario when it comes to meeting other player's expectations as well as trying to interpret the actions of others on the various maps that random TFO's put us. It's fraught with potential pitfalls.

    One thing is figuring out how a particular map calculates your score. I learned a few things about how this map works thanks to you starting this thread.

    Another thing is what you read into another players actions. For example are they AFK or brand new or having a connection difficulty or perhaps under certain conditions their framerate temporarily hit bottom and their game is frozen.

    Perhaps they know exactly how a map scores and complete things to achieve that best score but decide not to participate in a way that endears them to certain other players of a different mindset or level of knowledge.

    For what it's worth here's a funny story for you - last night I was playing Gateway to Grethor Advanced as a random and was curious as to how many transports would survive if no radiation gateways were closed as that would affect the score. Since the other player on my side was just shooting things at random I thought it would be a great time to implement this experiment so I placed myself above the plane of combat and started counting.

    How was this interpreted? After this phase of the tfo was completed I was given a "welcome back" greeting and informed by another player that I was reported.

    I tried to explain I was counting transports as a thread in the official forums had piqued my curiosity about how some maps work but it was too late :wink:

    For the record I don't afk and haven't in 10 years of STO. Also, there is nothing to report :smile:
  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 4,165 Arc User
    protoneous wrote: »
    For what it's worth here's a funny story for you - last night I was playing Gateway to Grethor Advanced as a random and was curious as to how many transports would survive if no radiation gateways were closed as that would affect the score. Since the other player on my side was just shooting things at random I thought it would be a great time to implement this experiment so I placed myself above the plane of combat and started counting.

    How was this interpreted? After this phase of the tfo was completed I was given a "welcome back" greeting and informed by another player that I was reported.

    I tried to explain I was counting transports as a thread in the official forums had piqued my curiosity about how some maps work but it was too late :wink:

    For the record I don't afk and haven't in 10 years of STO. Also, there is nothing to report :smile:
    Just recently I did something kind of similar. It looks like if 4 people park the ships in just the right spot they can close 100% of the green portals leaving the 5th person to float around or go AFK. I now ignore the orange portals as I don't see a point in closing them. All they do is spawn a few NPC's so my pets have something to play with. So I sit in the spot without moving looking AFK but closing green portals and leaving orange open.
  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 4,165 Arc User
    I can't say it's the first time I've seen this, just not ALL the other players at the same time. Is this it? Is this why players want carriers so much, so they can go AFK and let the game grind their "rewards?"
    Did you have mines from players turned on. Could they have been planting a mine field to ambush the NPC spawn point and you couldn't see it as you didn't change the settings?

    Carriers are seen as cool and people like recreating carriers after watching things like Battlestar Galactica. I find them far more interested to play then the more typical builds. As you wanted to know why people play them. In my case working out how all the elements of carries interact and optimizing them was a lot of fun for me. At the point I started mine layers and Carriers there was no guides, no tips, no meta, just about no one used them in game. The fun part for me was doing the hard work to find out the core of how they function and optimize them. Also I just find the playstyle more fun.
  • legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 37,276 Arc User
    If you think carriers are an AFK paradise in Swarm, watch a team of people in Ba'ul Sentry ships - you can literally set up sentry mode on those over each lane and the people behind them can just...walk away - grab a loo, make a sandwich, catch up on some reading, whatever.

    Works just as well in Best Served Cold guarding the defense stations, too - and I guess that one Lukari TFO with the satellites, but the targets there are far beefier, so you need all the buffs.​​
    Like special weapons from other Star Trek games? Wondering if they can be replicated in STO even a little bit? Check this out: https://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1262277/a-mostly-comprehensive-guide-to-star-trek-videogame-special-weapons-and-their-sto-equivalents

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  • postagepaidpostagepaid Member Posts: 2,899 Arc User
    If a ship doesn't need to move from a spot then why should it? Especially for lane defense type scenarios.

    My romulans t'laru has a couple of omni's in the back, torps up front and is very much a ship that gets parked up for barrage. The jem van carrier has a similar 4/2 layout so can easily be treated the same way.

    Granted I don't go totally AFK but if you know where to sit there's no need to shift out of position, especially with the way cryptic designs a TFO with spawn points that never vary or change from one run to the next. Only one of note is azure nebula and thats because the spawns for ships being rescued is randomised to the point where you can fail the optional through no fault of anything but the RNG.
  • lianthelialianthelia Member Posts: 7,820 Arc User
    I like carriers because I love pets...simple as that.

    My first mmorpg was swg and I loved creature handler...love playing hunter and (unholy) death knight in wow
  • garaffegaraffe Member Posts: 1,353 Arc User
    Whenever a map like Starbase One pops up in a Random TFO, I switch to my carrier, auto-launch pets, auto-activate grav well 3, and auto-target attacker when hit. I can control half the map while not even in the same room as my Xbox. Is this type of AFK'ing against the spirit of the game?
  • protoneousprotoneous Member Posts: 2,952 Arc User
    edited April 2021
    garaffe wrote: »
    Whenever a map like Starbase One pops up in a Random TFO, I switch to my carrier, auto-launch pets, auto-activate grav well 3, and auto-target attacker when hit. I can control half the map while not even in the same room as my Xbox. Is this type of AFK'ing against the spirit of the game?
    I hate to be "that guy" but my own answer would be yes. Don't take it personally as it's just my view on things and I honestly couldn't care less. I always appreciate a gravity well on that map so thanks for that.

    As far as the spirit of the game is concerned I thought it was to pilot your ship to maximize it's effect towards completion of the TFO. Pretty sure your carrier would do even better with you at the controls (mine does) :smile:
  • garaffegaraffe Member Posts: 1,353 Arc User
    protoneous wrote: »
    garaffe wrote: »
    Whenever a map like Starbase One pops up in a Random TFO, I switch to my carrier, auto-launch pets, auto-activate grav well 3, and auto-target attacker when hit. I can control half the map while not even in the same room as my Xbox. Is this type of AFK'ing against the spirit of the game?
    I hate to be "that guy" but my own answer would be yes. Don't take it personally as it's just my view on things and I honestly couldn't care less. I always appreciate a gravity well on that map so thanks for that.

    As far as the spirit of the game is concerned I thought it was to pilot your ship to maximize it's effect towards completion of the TFO. Pretty sure your carrier would do even better with you at the controls (mine does) :smile:

    Don't get me wrong, 99% of the time I am putting 100% effort into the game, but not Starbase One. The random TFO system is just poorly designed because every other TFO is Starbase One, which is a lazy, poorly designed mission. I refuse to put effort into that TFO over and over and over and over again.
  • legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 37,276 Arc User
    Blame cryptic for that - they made so much of the disco rep gear GOOD that people need tons of those marks...but people shouldn't be doing SB1 anymore - THWH is not only FASTER if you get a decent player or two, because unlike SB1, there are no timers, but it also pays more.​​
    Like special weapons from other Star Trek games? Wondering if they can be replicated in STO even a little bit? Check this out: https://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1262277/a-mostly-comprehensive-guide-to-star-trek-videogame-special-weapons-and-their-sto-equivalents

    #LegalizeAwoo

    A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
    An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
    A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
    A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"


    "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
    "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
    Passion and Serenity are one.
    I gain power by understanding both.
    In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
    I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
    The Force is united within me.
This discussion has been closed.