Myself and others kept asking Kael about adding a 5th fore weapon to the B'rel and he said they will not be changing the layout so the whole listening to player feedback as I'm concerned right there was TRIBBLE.
Myself and others kept asking Kael about adding a 5th fore weapon to the B'rel and he said they will not be changing the layout so the whole listening to player feedback as I'm concerned right there was TRIBBLE.
There is a difference between listening and agreeing.
There is also a difference between agreeing with some things and agreeing with everything.
They clearly listened. They clearly agreed with some things. They clearly did not agree with everything.
> @thegrandnagus1 said: > There is a difference between listening and agreeing. > > There is also a difference between agreeing with some things and agreeing with everything. > > They clearly listened. They clearly agreed with some things. They clearly did not agree with everything. > > But some changes are obviously better than none.
Sure, they need the money more than we need the ships, more power to them.
A few things here a couple of folks need to understand. You are not the arbiters of what is a good or bad ship. It's simply ships existing, and you having an opinion, nothing more nothing less. Suggesting a ship is objectively bad because it doesn't meet one's arbitrary standards of what a ship should be, or because it doesn't fit your particular playstyle is a little thing called Elitism. One is entitled to the opinion a ship is bad for what they like to do or doesn't fit their goals etc, but to suggest a ship is objectively bad is just flat out wrong.
Changes were made because constructive criticism was given and folks were going to vote with their wallets and not buy the pack. Constructive criticism is saying "If the ship had stats X instead of stats Y I would certainly get the pack." Constructive criticism is saying "I think the ship appears weak compared to this ship that was released previously and is not worth the buy in its current form." Constructive criticism is saying "I would buy the pack if we got less fluff with it," hence part of why they added the lobi, folks can get at least 2 pieces of lobi gear for the ship right away if they chose. in cracking the promo packs you're looking at a little over 600 lobi assuming you don't get a ship. That's a full space set of lobi gear.
Folks providing constructive criticism and who were going to vote with their wallet got them to implement changes. The folks who always call ships objectively bad don't meet their arbitrary standards of what a ship should be, did not.
But why does Cryptic not listen to constructive criticism: we would buy this pack if it wouldn't be loaded with bloat and the price would be fair.?
and
I would buy the pack if there were more KDF ships, like the D7 for example.
and
The T6 coupons are only good for old ships, as long as cryptic doesn't add a bug like with the Titan.
and
The 500 lobis are nice, I guess, but as you already mentioned only for gear...we can't get a ship with 500 lobis.
and
People who already got the Targ and the cross faction ship unlock should get a lower price, because why buy something twice?
and
The keys and the boxes are worthless for most of the players.
This all constructive and was stated on pretty much every social platform STO is on.
I bought the last years big pack but I don't see me spending so much money on this pack simply because I don't need the bloat, I have the Targ, I have the cross ship unlock and I'm not interested in the Vorcha (but I love the Ambassador, B'Rel and Excelsior). Add a D7 instead of the keys, boxes, targ and cross faction unlock, lower the pack to 150 and I'm in.
Well pertaining to your Lobi consideration the added-later 500 Lobi would accumulate with the (11) Keys which give a minimum of 4 Lobi each if not winning a ship for a minimum total of 44 Lobi & I think the average Lobi amount is a bit more than 4 each. Then the (11) R&D Promo Packs will give 10 Lobi per pack if it doesn't win a ship for a potential total of 110 Lobi. That's 654 Lobi right there almost guaranteed if not winning a ship if not more Lobi & enough to buy a complete space set even if not on sale. If you win a ship, or ships, well then you have good trouble to figure out.
I absolutely agree about the Store Targ & the "pilot any ship in-game" mechanic, but imo Cryptic adds such similar items/services in packs/bundles just to inflate the price even if they know players already have & Cryptic does know. They could do a discount but they choose not to except for a few ship examples.
More lobi isn't fixing this bundle, improving consoles is not fixing this bundle. The problems are the price.... the added filler cost that people would be forced to absorb in buying this bundle and that the ships aren't in line with "legendary" status, especially the B'rel and it's non legendary weapon layout.
So to people who say things like "don't like it? don't buy it" or "don't complain, vote with your wallet"...
You were wrong. If people hadn't complained PRIOR to the pack being released, these changes would not have been made.
To the people who have been defending bad ship stats this whole time and pretending like they were just fine...
You were wrong. If the stats had been fine, Cryptic wouldn't have made these changes.
My central hangup with the pack has always - always - been the exorbitant price they are asking for it. Distilled down to its core, the 'deal' is 200 USD for 4 ships. Yes, there are a lot of other things in the bundle that some (but not all) people might need or want. But the exclusive items are those 4 vessels (and, I guess, holo Worf). Everything else I can buy independently... and, thus, if I don't have a burning need for those extras, they don't have value to me.
It's $200 for 4 ships and a BOFF. It's highway robbery. It will remain highway robbery. And that's the element that they aren't budging on. So color me still immensely unsatisfied.
Also, the turn rate on the Excelsior still sucks. That's the same as my Legendary Sovereign. You really mean to tell me that an Excelsior cannot out-turn a ship twice its size?
4 ships almost everyone already had. No old KDF players didn't already buy the brel and vorcha likely more then once already.
All the previous leg packs included ships that could only be gotten previously via gambling. The first pack had 3 or was it 4 I can't even remember ships that where previously Promo or lockbox. The romulan pack included the previously Promo pack only T'liss. The disco leg pack the walker which was also lockbox previously. I know the stats are changes slightly and in some ways the promo pack versions where still superior. However point is the Klingons do have promo pack level ships..... and they did not make it into the KDF leg pack.
Almost the same price as last years pack.... SIX less ships... both of which have likely been bought multiple times by the KDF players they want to attract. All the harder to get lockbox/promo type KDF that might attract sales left out.
This pack is a rip off but its not because the couple ships that are in the pack got bad stats which ya ok they did... but that is typical of all Cryptic releases. Its what isn't in this pack that speaks volumes. Talk about tone deaf... a year of lockdown and reduced wages for almost everyone, and Cryptic tries to sell 4 ships for 200 bucks. lmao
I do appreciate trying to add some more value to this bundle and some response to player concerns. I am offering this as what I hope is constructive feedback.
The problem most people have with this is the nature of the ships themselves. Previous Legendary packs either had different versions of promo or lockbox ships available as an account unlock and/or had more ships for the money. The fluff is cute but its the ships that make or break a bundle for player value.
These ships are redressed C-Store ships. People who would spend that kind of money likely already have the 10 pack legendary and/or many of the C-store ships they wanted already (to address the T-6 coupon thing). We already have good MW cruisers avail in the C-Store, The B'rel is hardly changed at all and still lags behind many of its contemporaries. The Vorcha is significantly improved vs its C-Store counterpart but hardly carves out a unique niche.
At this price, there's not enough value in unique or non-Cstore redress ships for us. Not in the quality of the ships, not in the price per C-store equivalent. Add in a good version of a promo D7 and we might be talking real value to players.
Lastly, here's a bit of meaningful fluff if we want to keep adding fluff, how 6 t6-X tokens to go with the 6 ships in this thing since if we're going to use the ship, we'll have to spend the T6-X (who regularly uses a gimped ship if they can help it).
Thanks
Edit....it does come with the T6-X upgrades....6 of em as I suggested. That's something but, I think my general point about the ship offerings being less in quality and quantity vs what has come before stands.
I do appreciate trying to add some more value to this bundle and some response to player concerns. I am offering this as what I hope is constructive feedback.
The problem most people have with this is the nature of the ships themselves. Previous Legendary packs either had different versions of promo or lockbox ships available as an account unlock and/or had more ships for the money. The fluff is cute but its the ships that make or break a bundle for player value.
These ships are redressed C-Store ships. People who would spend that kind of money likely already have the 10 pack legendary and/or many of the C-store ships they wanted already (to address the T-6 coupon thing). We already have good MW cruisers avail in the C-Store, The B'rel is hardly changed at all and still lags behind many of its contemporaries. The Vorcha is significantly improved vs its C-Store counterpart but hardly carves out a unique niche.
At this price, there's not enough value in unique or non-Cstore redress ships for us. Not in the quality of the ships, not in the price per C-store equivalent. Add in a good version of a promo D7 and we might be talking real value to players.
Lastly, here's a bit of meaningful fluff if we want to keep adding fluff, how 6 t6-X tokens to go with the 6 ships in this thing since if we're going to use the ship, we'll have to spend the T6-X (who regularly uses a gimped ship if they can help it).
Thanks
I'm one of those people (sorry to say again). I have no issues with the B'Rel or Vorcha, but I won't buy this pack (I've already stated why)....not ever. I'll just make my Fleet B'Rel a TX like I did with my Vo'Quv and leave it be for purchases for KDF and probably end my playing of the faction altogether (bar fleet business).
I was hoping for a glorious end to this ''Year of Klingon", but I'm left feeling treated like a degenerate, malformed Targ now.
The handling of this whole year, especially after this past announcement, in my honest opinion, has been a PR disaster to anyone that has played this game long enough (Covid issues aside). Whilst the missions have been great, instead of offering a glut of KDF ships, there was a pitance of an offering (The Vo'quv FINALLY!) and being given the ability to fly FED ships over offering a full compliment of KDF Legendary is practically sticking the V's up at players who want to play purely KDF......'You will be assimilated'. There's also nothing in Klingon Recruits that screams 'YOU MUST PLAY THIS SPECIES' either. A Bat'leth that's only really any good using if you're using a control pad, a T6 that's really a T4U, and rewards that aren't in comparison to Temporal Recruits. It's like someone hit the Dev's with a 'Be Stingy' stick.
I'm normally a defender of Cryptic, but I just can't do it nor think of anything redeeming in this pack to justify it's (lack of) contents nor it's price.
"You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
A brief economic look at the 1st Legendary Bundle & this "Legendary" Bundle.
I watched a YouTube video earlier today & 1 of the comments put it in perspective for me: Cryptic charged 19500 zen ($195) opening sale price of -35% discount from 30000 zen ($300) for the 10th Anniversary Legendary Bundle of (10 Legend) ships, & now Cryptic is charging 18750 zen ($187.50) opening sale of only -25% discount from 25000 zen ($250) for this 2021 "Legendary" Bundle of (4 "Legend" & 2 regular) ships. This is just the plain & simple math. It doesn't include the fluff pieces which do add various amounts of value.
I don't think it proves they're listening...making a bunch of meaningless changes
I think it proves they know things are wrong with it but refuse to actually change anything that matters
Well its too late for them to add any new ships to the pack to increase its actual value and they certainly wont lower the price so the only thing they can do is add single char items or rng stuff that has such terrible rates that its basically worth almost nothing.
I don't think it proves they're listening...making a bunch of meaningless changes
I think it proves they know things are wrong with it but refuse to actually change anything that matters
Well its too late for them to add any new ships to the pack to increase its actual value and they certainly wont lower the price so the only thing they can do is add single char items or rng stuff that has such terrible rates that its basically worth almost nothing.
It's not to late...wouldn't be the first time they postponed releases.
Lets say they can't drop all the fluff...one of the things complained about is the BoP is pathetic...it's totally inferior to the free anniversary raider. They make a few little arbitrary changes to the other ships instead of fixing the weakest one, the only that barely feels like a upgrade at all.
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
Spot on. I always do my best to be constructive with the view that Cryptic is still 'God'.
However, I don't understand their justification to not produce a KDF Ship only bundle (This won't stop folk then demanding a ROM/Jem only Bundle, which they should). I don't understant why they haven't produced Ship only bundle, like the FED. I don't even think that Cryptic understand that to the players don't place the same value on Promo packs and Keys (which will probably be account-bound) than they do. They have an extremely high probability of being worthless. Lobi is the same. At most we could get a Lobi ship, which will be a single unlock, and most likely end up or already is in the Mudd store, and a full set of Lobi gear is of no use to my other mains either. All that fluff in the Fed pack, is not worth 10k Zen, and same with this bundle. When you have 30 toons across 2 platform, the value of that Lobi is only worth it, if you main 1 toon.
As to what ships are in there that I would fly, only the BoP appeals to me, and that's it. That's only because it's so compatible with all the Careers. Compared to the Fed pack I fly, the Intrepid, Crossfield, Odyssey, Donnie and Connie. I've had my monies worthy out of the Fed pack. I said the other day, if Cryptic cow-towed to player's demands to change layouts, then there's little point in buying other ships.
The account-unlock they need to drop. It's a damp squib of zero value considering how fast you can level to 65, and I do not see the number of new-to-STO players out-numbering the players that have been here long enough that would actually buy it.
The Ship slots will unlock on the toon you buy the pack, so you can't spread them across your account.
The Ship coupons and Upgrades are of worth, if you haven't already got what you need already.
The Worf Boff could be of value, depending on his traits, but if he has no Space traits, he's not of worth other than 'show-off' value. He would also have to fight off all my other canon Boff's
If the pack had the BoP, Vor'cha, Neg'Vhar, D7 and Bortasqu', I may have blinked, again if the pack was offered ships only. I have 2 platforms to play and fork over money to and approx £300 is waaaaaaaaay over my limit. Even £150 is just too much. I'm so glad I don't live with my parents, because they would execute me with how much I've invested into STO
THIS is an example of constructive criticism done right. Arguments presented in a logical manor and not trying to tout one's subjective opinion as objective fact.
First I will say, I actually agree they need to dial some of the fluff back and have pushed for this behind the scenes. There's no scenario I see in which we actually will get a Legendary ship for the same price as a regular cstore ship outside of a sale. I would have stated behind the scenes that I would pay up to 4500 zen for a Legendary ship considering the potential for the extra stuff you get on them compared to standard cstore ships. Legendary Odyssey as just one example came with the t5 AND t6 console sets, 3 t5 traits, plus the account unlock trait. Given not all of the Legendary ships are going to come with that much extra, but given that they are generally considered upgrades to the standard variants, and often come with extra stuff, I personally think it more than fair that they charge a bit extra for a Legendary ship vs standard cstore ship, within reason of course.
I also agree the price point isn't the greatest for the pack, but the 500 lobi for me at least definitely helps soften some of that blow. Assuming 7 lobi average per key that's about 71 keys worth of lobi they're giving you, or roughly another $80 of keys. That's at least 2 pieces of a space set for one of the ships. If we take the other keys and promo packs into account, potential for another 140 lobi or roughly 640 lobi total, which is a 3 piece space set, plus a ground weapon. May not appeal to some, but definitely added some value in my book. Then there's the coupons they give for 2 cstore ships which is about $60 worth of cstore ships. Whether one wants to say there is $200-$300 of value there is definitely something that can be debated. Like some others have suggested I would rather see them swap some of the fluff out for a guaranteed box ship. So the 4 ships, plus the lobi, a box ship, maybe some ship slots, the boff, and a costume piece or so.
I will agree it's an odd choice to include the fed ships in with this particular bundle instead of throwing more KDF ships in there. Though my guess is those ships are going to be released individually.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
A few things here a couple of folks need to understand. You are not the arbiters of what is a good or bad ship. It's simply ships existing, and you having an opinion, nothing more nothing less. Suggesting a ship is objectively bad because it doesn't meet one's arbitrary standards of what a ship should be, or because it doesn't fit your particular playstyle is a little thing called Elitism. One is entitled to the opinion a ship is bad for what they like to do or doesn't fit their goals etc, but to suggest a ship is objectively bad is just flat out wrong.
Changes were made because constructive criticism was given and folks were going to vote with their wallets and not buy the pack. Constructive criticism is saying "If the ship had stats X instead of stats Y I would certainly get the pack." Constructive criticism is saying "I think the ship appears weak compared to this ship that was released previously and is not worth the buy in its current form." Constructive criticism is saying "I would buy the pack if we got less fluff with it," hence part of why they added the lobi, folks can get at least 2 pieces of lobi gear for the ship right away if they chose. in cracking the promo packs you're looking at a little over 600 lobi assuming you don't get a ship. That's a full space set of lobi gear.
Folks providing constructive criticism and who were going to vote with their wallet got them to implement changes. The folks who always call ships objectively bad don't meet their arbitrary standards of what a ship should be, did not.
Once again: you are not the arbiter of what is a good or bad ship either.
You didn't provide constructive criticism, because you didn't provide anything but your opinion, while others argumented with STATS - stats that can be seen by everyonw, btw. You just expressed your opinion and expected, for whatever reason, to be more "right" than anybody else, while also conveniently ignoring that people did indeed say "the ships appear weaker than the ones previously released".
"I would buy the pack if we got less fluff with it" cannot be mitigated in any way with added Lobi. Not for that price tag. Not with the DilEx as it stands right now. Hell, not even with the DilEx at 250!
Changes were not made because of constructive criticism. Changes were made because of the uproar in ALL the platforms - something that, as has been pointed out in this very thread, seems to be regarded as the minority when it comes to stuff like the Nova T6 and more KDF ships, but now that there's TONS of money on the line, suddenly they're not.
Also, just for fun - from Merriam-Webster:
Definition of elitism
1 : leadership or rule by an elite
2 : the selectivity of the elite especially : snobbery elitism in choosing new members
3 : consciousness of being or belonging to an elite
So no, people suggesting a ship is bad because, once again, the OBJECTIVELY OBSERVED stats - coming from years of experience and experimentation - are bad is not Elitism.
And mind you: no one suggested they were bad because of DPS, which is what you were going for in all your posts about this - yes, even this one.
And no, suggesting that a ship is objectively bad while basing that suggestion on OBSERVABLE statistics is not "flat out wrong".
You just want to be right and for everyone else to be wrong.
Not agreeing with someone doesn't give you the right to be an TRIBBLE.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
I bought the first legendary bundle but skipped all the others for one reason. The first one gave 10 ships, the rest do not give remotely the same value to justify their price. Stuffing them full of filler does not make them the least bit more valuable in most cases, 10 keys is nothing. 500 lobi gets you very little, you can get like 2 consoles or a cosmetic uniform not much.
The romulan bundle should have had at least a legendary D'Deridex, scimitar, and mogai. The bundles should have equaled the value of the price tag of the original bundle or at least close to it. If they cant put that much value into the bundle then offer the ships for single purchase at cstore prices.
If only we could harness the amount of positive spin being put on this bundle to try and encourage sales, we would have all the green energy we could ever need...
I also agree the price point isn't the greatest for the pack, but the 500 lobi for me at least definitely helps soften some of that blow. Assuming 7 lobi average per key that's about 71 keys worth of lobi they're giving you, or roughly another $80 of keys. That's at least 2 pieces of a space set for one of the ships. If we take the other keys and promo packs into account, potential for another 140 lobi or roughly 640 lobi total, which is a 3 piece space set, plus a ground weapon. May not appeal to some, but definitely added some value in my book. Then there's the coupons they give for 2 cstore ships which is about $60 worth of cstore ships. Whether one wants to say there is $200-$300 of value there is definitely something that can be debated. Like some others have suggested I would rather see them swap some of the fluff out for a guaranteed box ship. So the 4 ships, plus the lobi, a box ship, maybe some ship slots, the boff, and a costume piece or so.
I will agree it's an odd choice to include the fed ships in with this particular bundle instead of throwing more KDF ships in there. Though my guess is those ships are going to be released individually.
First of the 7 lobi average is complete nonsense there is no " avarage " if you get lucky you get a good amount otherwise you get 40 - 50 with 10 keys. Lobi's are good for consoles and other stuff however it's value is nowhere near what you think. Lobi's are a consolation price nothing more. They are for the one reason that you don't feel like TRIBBLE if you gamble and you don't get anything good out of these boxes. Basically they ease the pain. Therefore I don't see the value in them. For me the fact is simple. They put a bunch of garbage in a package of 4 Legendary ships so they can sell it for near the price they sold 10 for last year. There is alot of people in this game who despise gambling as you can read all the time when they make a new Promo Ship or Lockbox ship in comments on Twitter and Facebook. However they don't mind buying ships in store and that's all they want is the ships and not the fluff. The package is massively overpriced for people who simply want the Legendary Ships and lets not forget we are in a Pandemic people don't have that kind of money to waste on a videogame. I just thought I point out Lobi's are not as valuable as you think at least not to the most of us. If lobi's where all that the ships would coulst around 800 - 900 million EC just to reflect the value but they don't. Most of them you usually get under 300.
C-Store Inc. is still looking for active members on the fed side. If you don't have a fleet feel free to contact me in game @stegi.
A few things here a couple of folks need to understand. You are not the arbiters of what is a good or bad ship. It's simply ships existing, and you having an opinion, nothing more nothing less. Suggesting a ship is objectively bad because it doesn't meet one's arbitrary standards of what a ship should be, or because it doesn't fit your particular playstyle is a little thing called Elitism. One is entitled to the opinion a ship is bad for what they like to do or doesn't fit their goals etc, but to suggest a ship is objectively bad is just flat out wrong.
Changes were made because constructive criticism was given and folks were going to vote with their wallets and not buy the pack. Constructive criticism is saying "If the ship had stats X instead of stats Y I would certainly get the pack." Constructive criticism is saying "I think the ship appears weak compared to this ship that was released previously and is not worth the buy in its current form." Constructive criticism is saying "I would buy the pack if we got less fluff with it," hence part of why they added the lobi, folks can get at least 2 pieces of lobi gear for the ship right away if they chose. in cracking the promo packs you're looking at a little over 600 lobi assuming you don't get a ship. That's a full space set of lobi gear.
Folks providing constructive criticism and who were going to vote with their wallet got them to implement changes. The folks who always call ships objectively bad don't meet their arbitrary standards of what a ship should be, did not.
Once again: you are not the arbiter of what is a good or bad ship either.
You didn't provide constructive criticism, because you didn't provide anything but your opinion, while others argumented with STATS - stats that can be seen by everyonw, btw. You just expressed your opinion and expected, for whatever reason, to be more "right" than anybody else, while also conveniently ignoring that people did indeed say "the ships appear weaker than the ones previously released".
"I would buy the pack if we got less fluff with it" cannot be mitigated in any way with added Lobi. Not for that price tag. Not with the DilEx as it stands right now. Hell, not even with the DilEx at 250!
Changes were not made because of constructive criticism. Changes were made because of the uproar in ALL the platforms - something that, as has been pointed out in this very thread, seems to be regarded as the minority when it comes to stuff like the Nova T6 and more KDF ships, but now that there's TONS of money on the line, suddenly they're not.
Also, just for fun - from Merriam-Webster:
Definition of elitism
1 : leadership or rule by an elite
2 : the selectivity of the elite especially : snobbery elitism in choosing new members
3 : consciousness of being or belonging to an elite
So no, people suggesting a ship is bad because, once again, the OBJECTIVELY OBSERVED stats - coming from years of experience and experimentation - are bad is not Elitism.
And mind you: no one suggested they were bad because of DPS, which is what you were going for in all your posts about this - yes, even this one.
And no, suggesting that a ship is objectively bad while basing that suggestion on OBSERVABLE statistics is not "flat out wrong".
You just want to be right and for everyone else to be wrong.
Very well said. I would add more, but as evidenced lately, that much is impossible here.
The "change" simply brings those two ships up to... exactly what the existing versions of those ships already had.
Which in other words means they should have had those turn rates originally.
Knowing Cryptic it could have been very well be intentional...they made these minor arbitrary little nerfs and if people complained they could "buff" them and claim they were listening to the players.
I haven't seen anyone complaining that the ships lost .5 turn rate...but I have been seeing people complain that the BoP was inferior to the Temer...that the pack has so much fluff that many people don't want just to inflate the price.
But nothing about the ships losing a tiny .5 turn rate...
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
The "change" simply brings those two ships up to... exactly what the existing versions of those ships already had.
Which in other words means they should have had those turn rates originally.
Knowing Cryptic it could have been very well be intentional...they made these minor arbitrary little nerfs and if people complained they could "buff" them and claim they were listening to the players.
I haven't seen anyone complaining that the ships lost .5 turn rate...but I have been seeing people complain that the BoP was inferior to the Temer...that the pack has so much fluff that many people don't want just to inflate the price.
But nothing about the ships losing a tiny .5 turn rate...
Well yeah, because the original change was 6.5 down from 10... bringing that up to 9.5 was just because of the uproar, to give the impression that they listen.
I mean, if they went from 10 to 9.5 from the beginning, I don't think anyone would've said anything bad. Maybe someone would have wondered why, but nothing more.
Not agreeing with someone doesn't give you the right to be an TRIBBLE.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
Once again: you are not the arbiter of what is a good or bad ship either.
You didn't provide constructive criticism, because you didn't provide anything but your opinion, while others argumented with STATS - stats that can be seen by everyonw, btw. You just expressed your opinion and expected, for whatever reason, to be more "right" than anybody else, while also conveniently ignoring that people did indeed say "the ships appear weaker than the ones previously released".
"I would buy the pack if we got less fluff with it" cannot be mitigated in any way with added Lobi. Not for that price tag. Not with the DilEx as it stands right now. Hell, not even with the DilEx at 250!
I took some time to decide how I was going to respond to this if at all. By all rights and purposes I should blank your post for gatekeeping, but I'm not going to do that just yet. I'm going to assume until proven otherwise you do not mean that to come off the way it has in a purely text based communication.
First up, stats without context are meaningless, and are nothing but numbers on paper. They need context to define them as good or bad. Let's assume the turn rate of the Vorcha actually had been 6.5 and that it was indeed correct for a moment. Purely on its own, it would have been a Vorcha with 6.5 degree turn rate, nothing more nothing less.
-If we compare it to the previous Vorcha which is a turn rate of 10, the Legendary Vorcha would have been 3.5 degrees slower than the previous version. If the concern is turn rate, then the original Vorcha would be the better buy in that scenario.
-If the goal is flexibility of stations and overall pool of abilities you can choose from, the Legendary version is the superior buy as you get a larger pool of abilities to choose from that you simply do not with the previous cstore variant.
-If one wants more defense oriented abilities for a tank build, then the Legend version is going to have a larger pool of abilities you can draw from and is thus superior.
-If the concern is price point per ship, then by far the previous cstore version is cheaper.
-If the goal is to do a tank or energy weapons build, you get more to choose from with the Legendary version.
-If the goal is to do a full on science build, then one may not want either version of the ship.
Without context of the stats, there is no way to determine whether the ship is a good fit for a particular person or not. Simply because you as an individual player do not like the ship, it does NOT make the ship objectively bad for everything else. What works for me as a tank and is considered a top tier ship for survival, may be considered bat guano for someone looking to do a science build, or pure energy build. What they consider top tier may not even register on my radar. Too many seem to think that their way of building is the only way of building, and their way of viewing ships is the only way of viewing ships, and that's not how it works.
-If someone wants to say "I think the ship is bad because it's stats don't match the previous ship" that's a fair argument that I have seen some folks make.
-If someone wants to say "I don't like the ship because I think the price is too high," okay fair enough.
-If someone wants to say "I don't like the ship because it's command primary instead of miracle worker" okay again, fair enough.
Folks like what they like when it comes to stats and preference of specialization. However there seems to be this stigma that some people have, that I wish would die and burn in the fires of Grethor already. If they personally can't do 40989027098 DPS with the ship, it doesn't cater to the exact type of build they like, or they can't figure out what to do with it, it's automatically "th3 WoRsT3st ship EvAr." No it just means that ship isn't for you. Not every ship is going to be liked by every player. Not every ship is meant for every kind of build.
Folks are entitled to their opinions on why they like or dislike a ship. They're entitled to say they don't like it because of stats, price point, boff seating flexability, they just don't like it, or what have you. What is not going to fly is when folks come on here and try to declare the ship is objectively bad at everything someone names because THEY have decided it's so. That's not how this works and is elitism and gatekeeping.
1 : leadership or rule by an elite
2 : the selectivity of the elite especially : snobbery elitism in choosing new members
3 : consciousness of being or belonging to an elite
So no, people suggesting a ship is bad because, once again, the OBJECTIVELY OBSERVED stats - coming from years of experience and experimentation - are bad is not Elitism.
And mind you: no one suggested they were bad because of DPS, which is what you were going for in all your posts about this - yes, even this one.
And no, suggesting that a ship is objectively bad while basing that suggestion on OBSERVABLE statistics is not "flat out wrong".
You just want to be right and for everyone else to be wrong.
Which brings us to second half of your post, and especially the bits I've highlighted in bold there. THAT is the exact kind of elitism and gatekeeping I am talking about. If my use of the DPS example offends you, then oh well, I stand by my statement. There is more to this game than the damage and stat charts. One could have the best stats in the world, but if they don't know how to put that ship to use, then it means nothing at the end of the day. I can't tell you the number of times I've gone into a run with people who have had ships that were all golden out and thinking they were going to smoke everyone or do better than they did, only for them to end up doing next to nothing in terms of contribution to the run.
With that said, your way of building and playing in game is NOT the only way of building and playing. When someone tries to assert a ship is objectively bad at everything, as was done elsewhere because THEY have decided THEY don't like the stats, nah that's a perfect example of definition 2 from your own example, snobbery with the stats.
-Guy 1: "Oh well that ship only does 500k where as that ship does 525k. So this is a bad ship."
-Guy 2: (Gives reasons why it's a great tank platform for the way they play and not as bad as people think)
-Guy 1: "The stats say it's a bad ship."
-Guy 2: "I don't build the way you build. I am a tank and those are good tank stats for how I build."
-Guy 1: "No it's bad at everything you named."
In this example guy one is asserting said ship is bad across the board, even for what guy 2 likes to do, when guy 2 is specifically saying that it's not. Guy one is using his experience with the stats and making a declaratory statement that applies to everyone across the board, including Guy Two, and he doesn't get to do that.
THAT is what will not fly here. One is attempting to use their reputation to gatekeep and call something objectively bad for everyone and everything else or a "noob trap" because THEY have decided it's bad. Nah that's not how that works. Saying "I think it's bad because it has X stats instead of Y" is a valid criticism. Saying "it's bad at everything because of (reason)" is something else entirely. You and I both see the same observable stats, and for the way I play I see an observable improvement in overall toolkit and flexability of the Vorcha and Excelsior compared to the their previous versions. So for me and tanks who build like I do, the ships are better than their previous incarnations based on observable stats and are objectively good ships. So yes for someone to assert a ship like the Vorcha or Excelsior is objectively bad across the board is in fact, flat out wrong whether you like it or not.
On your last line about "You just want to be right and for everyone else to be wrong." I've already said before I don't roll that way and folks are entitled to their opinions in the positive or the negative on the ships. Whether you like the ships or dislike the ships is no skin off my back at the end of the day. You want to think folks are wasting their cash and the price point is bad (I actually agree price should be better) then more power to you. As I said elsewhere I may debate build theory with the person on the other side of the aisle as that's what players do from time to time, but they are entitled to their opinions and I am entitled to mine. Maybe we borrow ideas from each other, maybe we don't. What I DO however care about is when folks try push elitism and gatekeeping under the guise of "avoiding a noob trap."
[
Changes were not made because of constructive criticism. Changes were made because of the uproar in ALL the platforms - something that, as has been pointed out in this very thread, seems to be regarded as the minority when it comes to stuff like the Nova T6 and more KDF ships, but now that there's TONS of money on the line, suddenly they're not.
A couple of things on this particular bit before I wrap this up. Simply because they don't put a ship out someone wants the instant that person snaps their fingers does NOT mean they have forgotten about that ship, or won't be doing anything with it. They're not going to tell you every single plan that they have straight out of the gate. Personally I would have thought we would have a t6 Nova and Oberth by now for that matter, but for whatever reason that hasn't happened yet. Sometimes it can take awhile to get certain ships in game as they must be greenlit by CBS and sometimes rights holders to those ships depending on where that ship originated from initially. I know you don't want to hear that and will think it's a cop out, or I'm putting some kind of Cryptic apologist spin on it to make the game look good, but that's simply the reality of things. They know folks want a Nova, Oberth, and several other ships. The folks at Cryptic are terrible liars, and if they weren't going to do something with those ships they never would've said anything about not forgetting them.
I agree there should have been more KDF ships in this bundle, at least a Negh'var and Koloth or Bortisque or something. For whatever reason however they haven't. Folks will have to make the decision to buy or not buy on their own. You are not wrong if you decide to forgo this pack, nor are you wrong if you do buy the pack. Though I have to ask, if folks aren't going to buy the pack anyways, why such a fuss? Either buy it or don't. I fear however that those ships will all end up in single packs because folks complained previously "if you would sell the ships individually instead of in a 10 ship bundle for $300, we would buy them individually," when the first pack was around. Then folks will simply complain again when it becomes a pack like the Legend Tliss because "too much fluff" and it's not the price point they wanted, and it will be yet another case of Cryptic can do no right, even when giving folks what they said they wanted.
Finally, I can assure you that they ignore flaming rants and don't pay them any mind. Folks can be blunt and to the point without needing to make a flaming rant against the company, and be as critical as one needs to be while still being respectful and civil. Alot of folks said they weren't going to buy if they didn't make some improvements and were going to vote with their wallets. Folks said the stats needed to be better, and more value needed to be added to the pack. Value is subjective in this instance and up to each person to decide if they're going to buy or not. I can't make that decision for you, nor can you make that decision for me. At the end of the day you're entitled to your opinions.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
Once again: you are not the arbiter of what is a good or bad ship either.
You didn't provide constructive criticism, because you didn't provide anything but your opinion, while others argumented with STATS - stats that can be seen by everyonw, btw. You just expressed your opinion and expected, for whatever reason, to be more "right" than anybody else, while also conveniently ignoring that people did indeed say "the ships appear weaker than the ones previously released".
"I would buy the pack if we got less fluff with it" cannot be mitigated in any way with added Lobi. Not for that price tag. Not with the DilEx as it stands right now. Hell, not even with the DilEx at 250!
I took some time to decide how I was going to respond to this if at all. By all rights and purposes I should blank your post for gatekeeping, but I'm not going to do that just yet. I'm going to assume until proven otherwise you do not mean that to come off the way it has in a purely text based communication.
First up, stats without context are meaningless, and are nothing but numbers on paper. They need context to define them as good or bad. Let's assume the turn rate of the Vorcha actually had been 6.5 and that it was indeed correct for a moment. Purely on its own, it would have been a Vorcha with 6.5 degree turn rate, nothing more nothing less.
-If we compare it to the previous Vorcha which is a turn rate of 10, the Legendary Vorcha would have been 3.5 degrees slower than the previous version. If the concern is turn rate, then the original Vorcha would be the better buy in that scenario.
-If the goal is flexibility of stations and overall pool of abilities you can choose from, the Legendary version is the superior buy as you get a larger pool of abilities to choose from that you simply do not with the previous cstore variant.
-If one wants more defense oriented abilities for a tank build, then the Legend version is going to have a larger pool of abilities you can draw from and is thus superior.
-If the concern is price point per ship, then by far the previous cstore version is cheaper.
-If the goal is to do a tank or energy weapons build, you get more to choose from with the Legendary version.
-If the goal is to do a full on science build, then one may not want either version of the ship.
Flexibility? The L. Vorcha has one more uni BOFF slot over the Vor'ral. True, but barely, and only if you don't have a plan to do a build with no science BOFF.
Defense abilities? Like suppression barrage? CIF is arguably better. Overwhelm emitters is nice too, but are they better than standard engineering powers somehow? I'll give that you have more options, but whether they are meaningful is questionable.
Price point, this one is obvious, but it can't be understated that this is also in whether the L. Vorcha is actually worth the increased price. If every "plus" the L. Vorcha has is only a slight advantage, this hurts it more.
Energy weapons build is better with the (original) L.Vorcha? How do you figure that? Command doesn't do much for you here. The MW BOFF is only an LT, while Temporal has rapid decay and recursive shearing to play with, and you can't just ignore the Temporal death ray. 5/3 with the low turn rate is not good for a cannon ship, and DBB isn't much better.
Without context of the stats, there is no way to determine whether the ship is a good fit for a particular person or not. Simply because you as an individual player do not like the ship, it does NOT make the ship objectively bad for everything else. What works for me as a tank and is considered a top tier ship for survival, may be considered bat guano for someone looking to do a science build, or pure energy build. What they consider top tier may not even register on my radar. Too many seem to think that their way of building is the only way of building, and their way of viewing ships is the only way of viewing ships, and that's not how it works.
-If someone wants to say "I think the ship is bad because it's stats don't match the previous ship" that's a fair argument that I have seen some folks make.
-If someone wants to say "I don't like the ship because I think the price is too high," okay fair enough.
-If someone wants to say "I don't like the ship because it's command primary instead of miracle worker" okay again, fair enough.
Who is saying that someone can't like the ship? I don't recall reading anyone being shouted down because they said they liked the L Vor'cha in its original stats.
Even if you do want to tank with it though, there are better options. I don't see what the L. Vor'cha does for tanking that other ships can't do better. You can tank with a Defiant if you want, that doesn't make it the best choice for it.
Again, though, who is saying you can't do what you want with it?
Folks like what they like when it comes to stats and preference of specialization. However there seems to be this stigma that some people have, that I wish would die and burn in the fires of Grethor already. If they personally can't do 40989027098 DPS with the ship, it doesn't cater to the exact type of build they like, or they can't figure out what to do with it, it's automatically "th3 WoRsT3st ship EvAr." No it just means that ship isn't for you. Not every ship is going to be liked by every player. Not every ship is meant for every kind of build.
Command is an objectively inferior specialization. With the exception of a few, the BOFF powers are far too situational, niche, long recharging, and generally a PITA to use well or even at all. The gimmick only becomes useful in long duration battles, and only while you're spamming BOFF abilities, but if half of your abilities are more situational/healing and you have no reason to use them, you're not charging the inspiration very fast, especially so if you're not using command BOFF powers because they suck. That's just a fact.
Command needs serious reworking. It was designed in a different era and flow of the game as one of the first specializations, and doesn't stand up today. Intel needs work too.
And it being inferior doesn't mean you can't like it, nor that you can't find use for some of it. It just means its worse than all the rest, aka bad.
Folks are entitled to their opinions on why they like or dislike a ship. They're entitled to say they don't like it because of stats, price point, boff seating flexability, they just don't like it, or what have you. What is not going to fly is when folks come on here and try to declare the ship is objectively bad at everything someone names because THEY have decided it's so. That's not how this works and is elitism and gatekeeping.
Calling a ship objectively bad, even if it isn't, is neither elitism nor gatekeeping, it is an opinion that may or may not be backed up by facts.
No one can possibly stop someone from buying a bad ship and thus gatekeep. It is impossible and absurd to suggest.
It also can't be elitism when there's zero social impact in any of this here. No one is saying they won't let you in their group because you fly the L. Vor'cha, or that they are better than you because you fly that ship or any other. People say any given ship is bad because of how it compares to similar ships and that is not elitism, its analysis.
I agree, so I'm just going to quote your post if you don't mind.
But thank you @foxrockssocks. I appreciate your effort, probably much more than you'll ever know.
Not agreeing with someone doesn't give you the right to be an TRIBBLE.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
I took some time to decide how I was going to respond to this if at all. By all rights and purposes I should blank your post for gatekeeping, but I'm not going to do that just yet. I'm going to assume until proven otherwise you do not mean that to come off the way it has in a purely text based communication.
Here we go again. For as long as you do not provide any information about forum rules stating to what depth level or explenation standards the criticism about game relases are required to go into your replies have a hard time being understood propperly.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
(response to redacted material removed) - darkbladejk
Post edited by darkbladejk on
Not agreeing with someone doesn't give you the right to be an TRIBBLE.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
Comments
There is a difference between listening and agreeing.
There is also a difference between agreeing with some things and agreeing with everything.
They clearly listened. They clearly agreed with some things. They clearly did not agree with everything.
But some changes are obviously better than none.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
> There is a difference between listening and agreeing.
>
> There is also a difference between agreeing with some things and agreeing with everything.
>
> They clearly listened. They clearly agreed with some things. They clearly did not agree with everything.
>
> But some changes are obviously better than none.
Sure, they need the money more than we need the ships, more power to them.
Well pertaining to your Lobi consideration the added-later 500 Lobi would accumulate with the (11) Keys which give a minimum of 4 Lobi each if not winning a ship for a minimum total of 44 Lobi & I think the average Lobi amount is a bit more than 4 each. Then the (11) R&D Promo Packs will give 10 Lobi per pack if it doesn't win a ship for a potential total of 110 Lobi. That's 654 Lobi right there almost guaranteed if not winning a ship if not more Lobi & enough to buy a complete space set even if not on sale. If you win a ship, or ships, well then you have good trouble to figure out.
I absolutely agree about the Store Targ & the "pilot any ship in-game" mechanic, but imo Cryptic adds such similar items/services in packs/bundles just to inflate the price even if they know players already have & Cryptic does know. They could do a discount but they choose not to except for a few ship examples.
More lobi isn't fixing this bundle, improving consoles is not fixing this bundle. The problems are the price.... the added filler cost that people would be forced to absorb in buying this bundle and that the ships aren't in line with "legendary" status, especially the B'rel and it's non legendary weapon layout.
4 ships almost everyone already had. No old KDF players didn't already buy the brel and vorcha likely more then once already.
All the previous leg packs included ships that could only be gotten previously via gambling. The first pack had 3 or was it 4 I can't even remember ships that where previously Promo or lockbox. The romulan pack included the previously Promo pack only T'liss. The disco leg pack the walker which was also lockbox previously. I know the stats are changes slightly and in some ways the promo pack versions where still superior. However point is the Klingons do have promo pack level ships..... and they did not make it into the KDF leg pack.
Almost the same price as last years pack.... SIX less ships... both of which have likely been bought multiple times by the KDF players they want to attract. All the harder to get lockbox/promo type KDF that might attract sales left out.
This pack is a rip off but its not because the couple ships that are in the pack got bad stats which ya ok they did... but that is typical of all Cryptic releases. Its what isn't in this pack that speaks volumes. Talk about tone deaf... a year of lockdown and reduced wages for almost everyone, and Cryptic tries to sell 4 ships for 200 bucks. lmao
The problem most people have with this is the nature of the ships themselves. Previous Legendary packs either had different versions of promo or lockbox ships available as an account unlock and/or had more ships for the money. The fluff is cute but its the ships that make or break a bundle for player value.
These ships are redressed C-Store ships. People who would spend that kind of money likely already have the 10 pack legendary and/or many of the C-store ships they wanted already (to address the T-6 coupon thing). We already have good MW cruisers avail in the C-Store, The B'rel is hardly changed at all and still lags behind many of its contemporaries. The Vorcha is significantly improved vs its C-Store counterpart but hardly carves out a unique niche.
At this price, there's not enough value in unique or non-Cstore redress ships for us. Not in the quality of the ships, not in the price per C-store equivalent. Add in a good version of a promo D7 and we might be talking real value to players.
Lastly, here's a bit of meaningful fluff if we want to keep adding fluff, how 6 t6-X tokens to go with the 6 ships in this thing since if we're going to use the ship, we'll have to spend the T6-X (who regularly uses a gimped ship if they can help it).
Thanks
Edit....it does come with the T6-X upgrades....6 of em as I suggested. That's something but, I think my general point about the ship offerings being less in quality and quantity vs what has come before stands.
I'm one of those people (sorry to say again). I have no issues with the B'Rel or Vorcha, but I won't buy this pack (I've already stated why)....not ever. I'll just make my Fleet B'Rel a TX like I did with my Vo'Quv and leave it be for purchases for KDF and probably end my playing of the faction altogether (bar fleet business).
I was hoping for a glorious end to this ''Year of Klingon", but I'm left feeling treated like a degenerate, malformed Targ now.
The handling of this whole year, especially after this past announcement, in my honest opinion, has been a PR disaster to anyone that has played this game long enough (Covid issues aside). Whilst the missions have been great, instead of offering a glut of KDF ships, there was a pitance of an offering (The Vo'quv FINALLY!) and being given the ability to fly FED ships over offering a full compliment of KDF Legendary is practically sticking the V's up at players who want to play purely KDF......'You will be assimilated'. There's also nothing in Klingon Recruits that screams 'YOU MUST PLAY THIS SPECIES' either. A Bat'leth that's only really any good using if you're using a control pad, a T6 that's really a T4U, and rewards that aren't in comparison to Temporal Recruits. It's like someone hit the Dev's with a 'Be Stingy' stick.
I'm normally a defender of Cryptic, but I just can't do it nor think of anything redeeming in this pack to justify it's (lack of) contents nor it's price.
A brief economic look at the 1st Legendary Bundle & this "Legendary" Bundle.
I watched a YouTube video earlier today & 1 of the comments put it in perspective for me: Cryptic charged 19500 zen ($195) opening sale price of -35% discount from 30000 zen ($300) for the 10th Anniversary Legendary Bundle of (10 Legend) ships, & now Cryptic is charging 18750 zen ($187.50) opening sale of only -25% discount from 25000 zen ($250) for this 2021 "Legendary" Bundle of (4 "Legend" & 2 regular) ships. This is just the plain & simple math. It doesn't include the fluff pieces which do add various amounts of value.
I think it proves they know things are wrong with it but refuse to actually change anything that matters
It's not to late...wouldn't be the first time they postponed releases.
Lets say they can't drop all the fluff...one of the things complained about is the BoP is pathetic...it's totally inferior to the free anniversary raider. They make a few little arbitrary changes to the other ships instead of fixing the weakest one, the only that barely feels like a upgrade at all.
THIS is an example of constructive criticism done right. Arguments presented in a logical manor and not trying to tout one's subjective opinion as objective fact.
First I will say, I actually agree they need to dial some of the fluff back and have pushed for this behind the scenes. There's no scenario I see in which we actually will get a Legendary ship for the same price as a regular cstore ship outside of a sale. I would have stated behind the scenes that I would pay up to 4500 zen for a Legendary ship considering the potential for the extra stuff you get on them compared to standard cstore ships. Legendary Odyssey as just one example came with the t5 AND t6 console sets, 3 t5 traits, plus the account unlock trait. Given not all of the Legendary ships are going to come with that much extra, but given that they are generally considered upgrades to the standard variants, and often come with extra stuff, I personally think it more than fair that they charge a bit extra for a Legendary ship vs standard cstore ship, within reason of course.
I also agree the price point isn't the greatest for the pack, but the 500 lobi for me at least definitely helps soften some of that blow. Assuming 7 lobi average per key that's about 71 keys worth of lobi they're giving you, or roughly another $80 of keys. That's at least 2 pieces of a space set for one of the ships. If we take the other keys and promo packs into account, potential for another 140 lobi or roughly 640 lobi total, which is a 3 piece space set, plus a ground weapon. May not appeal to some, but definitely added some value in my book. Then there's the coupons they give for 2 cstore ships which is about $60 worth of cstore ships. Whether one wants to say there is $200-$300 of value there is definitely something that can be debated. Like some others have suggested I would rather see them swap some of the fluff out for a guaranteed box ship. So the 4 ships, plus the lobi, a box ship, maybe some ship slots, the boff, and a costume piece or so.
I will agree it's an odd choice to include the fed ships in with this particular bundle instead of throwing more KDF ships in there. Though my guess is those ships are going to be released individually.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
Once again: you are not the arbiter of what is a good or bad ship either.
You didn't provide constructive criticism, because you didn't provide anything but your opinion, while others argumented with STATS - stats that can be seen by everyonw, btw. You just expressed your opinion and expected, for whatever reason, to be more "right" than anybody else, while also conveniently ignoring that people did indeed say "the ships appear weaker than the ones previously released".
"I would buy the pack if we got less fluff with it" cannot be mitigated in any way with added Lobi. Not for that price tag. Not with the DilEx as it stands right now. Hell, not even with the DilEx at 250!
Changes were not made because of constructive criticism. Changes were made because of the uproar in ALL the platforms - something that, as has been pointed out in this very thread, seems to be regarded as the minority when it comes to stuff like the Nova T6 and more KDF ships, but now that there's TONS of money on the line, suddenly they're not.
Also, just for fun - from Merriam-Webster:
So no, people suggesting a ship is bad because, once again, the OBJECTIVELY OBSERVED stats - coming from years of experience and experimentation - are bad is not Elitism.
And mind you: no one suggested they were bad because of DPS, which is what you were going for in all your posts about this - yes, even this one.
And no, suggesting that a ship is objectively bad while basing that suggestion on OBSERVABLE statistics is not "flat out wrong".
You just want to be right and for everyone else to be wrong.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
The romulan bundle should have had at least a legendary D'Deridex, scimitar, and mogai. The bundles should have equaled the value of the price tag of the original bundle or at least close to it. If they cant put that much value into the bundle then offer the ships for single purchase at cstore prices.
First of the 7 lobi average is complete nonsense there is no " avarage " if you get lucky you get a good amount otherwise you get 40 - 50 with 10 keys. Lobi's are good for consoles and other stuff however it's value is nowhere near what you think. Lobi's are a consolation price nothing more. They are for the one reason that you don't feel like TRIBBLE if you gamble and you don't get anything good out of these boxes. Basically they ease the pain. Therefore I don't see the value in them. For me the fact is simple. They put a bunch of garbage in a package of 4 Legendary ships so they can sell it for near the price they sold 10 for last year. There is alot of people in this game who despise gambling as you can read all the time when they make a new Promo Ship or Lockbox ship in comments on Twitter and Facebook. However they don't mind buying ships in store and that's all they want is the ships and not the fluff. The package is massively overpriced for people who simply want the Legendary Ships and lets not forget we are in a Pandemic people don't have that kind of money to waste on a videogame. I just thought I point out Lobi's are not as valuable as you think at least not to the most of us. If lobi's where all that the ships would coulst around 800 - 900 million EC just to reflect the value but they don't. Most of them you usually get under 300.
Very well said. I would add more, but as evidenced lately, that much is impossible here.
Knowing Cryptic it could have been very well be intentional...they made these minor arbitrary little nerfs and if people complained they could "buff" them and claim they were listening to the players.
I haven't seen anyone complaining that the ships lost .5 turn rate...but I have been seeing people complain that the BoP was inferior to the Temer...that the pack has so much fluff that many people don't want just to inflate the price.
But nothing about the ships losing a tiny .5 turn rate...
Well yeah, because the original change was 6.5 down from 10... bringing that up to 9.5 was just because of the uproar, to give the impression that they listen.
I mean, if they went from 10 to 9.5 from the beginning, I don't think anyone would've said anything bad. Maybe someone would have wondered why, but nothing more.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
First up, stats without context are meaningless, and are nothing but numbers on paper. They need context to define them as good or bad. Let's assume the turn rate of the Vorcha actually had been 6.5 and that it was indeed correct for a moment. Purely on its own, it would have been a Vorcha with 6.5 degree turn rate, nothing more nothing less.
-If we compare it to the previous Vorcha which is a turn rate of 10, the Legendary Vorcha would have been 3.5 degrees slower than the previous version. If the concern is turn rate, then the original Vorcha would be the better buy in that scenario.
-If the goal is flexibility of stations and overall pool of abilities you can choose from, the Legendary version is the superior buy as you get a larger pool of abilities to choose from that you simply do not with the previous cstore variant.
-If one wants more defense oriented abilities for a tank build, then the Legend version is going to have a larger pool of abilities you can draw from and is thus superior.
-If the concern is price point per ship, then by far the previous cstore version is cheaper.
-If the goal is to do a tank or energy weapons build, you get more to choose from with the Legendary version.
-If the goal is to do a full on science build, then one may not want either version of the ship.
Without context of the stats, there is no way to determine whether the ship is a good fit for a particular person or not. Simply because you as an individual player do not like the ship, it does NOT make the ship objectively bad for everything else. What works for me as a tank and is considered a top tier ship for survival, may be considered bat guano for someone looking to do a science build, or pure energy build. What they consider top tier may not even register on my radar. Too many seem to think that their way of building is the only way of building, and their way of viewing ships is the only way of viewing ships, and that's not how it works.
-If someone wants to say "I think the ship is bad because it's stats don't match the previous ship" that's a fair argument that I have seen some folks make.
-If someone wants to say "I don't like the ship because I think the price is too high," okay fair enough.
-If someone wants to say "I don't like the ship because it's command primary instead of miracle worker" okay again, fair enough.
Folks like what they like when it comes to stats and preference of specialization. However there seems to be this stigma that some people have, that I wish would die and burn in the fires of Grethor already. If they personally can't do 40989027098 DPS with the ship, it doesn't cater to the exact type of build they like, or they can't figure out what to do with it, it's automatically "th3 WoRsT3st ship EvAr." No it just means that ship isn't for you. Not every ship is going to be liked by every player. Not every ship is meant for every kind of build.
Folks are entitled to their opinions on why they like or dislike a ship. They're entitled to say they don't like it because of stats, price point, boff seating flexability, they just don't like it, or what have you. What is not going to fly is when folks come on here and try to declare the ship is objectively bad at everything someone names because THEY have decided it's so. That's not how this works and is elitism and gatekeeping.
Which brings us to second half of your post, and especially the bits I've highlighted in bold there. THAT is the exact kind of elitism and gatekeeping I am talking about. If my use of the DPS example offends you, then oh well, I stand by my statement. There is more to this game than the damage and stat charts. One could have the best stats in the world, but if they don't know how to put that ship to use, then it means nothing at the end of the day. I can't tell you the number of times I've gone into a run with people who have had ships that were all golden out and thinking they were going to smoke everyone or do better than they did, only for them to end up doing next to nothing in terms of contribution to the run.
With that said, your way of building and playing in game is NOT the only way of building and playing. When someone tries to assert a ship is objectively bad at everything, as was done elsewhere because THEY have decided THEY don't like the stats, nah that's a perfect example of definition 2 from your own example, snobbery with the stats.
-Guy 1: "Oh well that ship only does 500k where as that ship does 525k. So this is a bad ship."
-Guy 2: (Gives reasons why it's a great tank platform for the way they play and not as bad as people think)
-Guy 1: "The stats say it's a bad ship."
-Guy 2: "I don't build the way you build. I am a tank and those are good tank stats for how I build."
-Guy 1: "No it's bad at everything you named."
In this example guy one is asserting said ship is bad across the board, even for what guy 2 likes to do, when guy 2 is specifically saying that it's not. Guy one is using his experience with the stats and making a declaratory statement that applies to everyone across the board, including Guy Two, and he doesn't get to do that.
THAT is what will not fly here. One is attempting to use their reputation to gatekeep and call something objectively bad for everyone and everything else or a "noob trap" because THEY have decided it's bad. Nah that's not how that works. Saying "I think it's bad because it has X stats instead of Y" is a valid criticism. Saying "it's bad at everything because of (reason)" is something else entirely. You and I both see the same observable stats, and for the way I play I see an observable improvement in overall toolkit and flexability of the Vorcha and Excelsior compared to the their previous versions. So for me and tanks who build like I do, the ships are better than their previous incarnations based on observable stats and are objectively good ships. So yes for someone to assert a ship like the Vorcha or Excelsior is objectively bad across the board is in fact, flat out wrong whether you like it or not.
On your last line about "You just want to be right and for everyone else to be wrong." I've already said before I don't roll that way and folks are entitled to their opinions in the positive or the negative on the ships. Whether you like the ships or dislike the ships is no skin off my back at the end of the day. You want to think folks are wasting their cash and the price point is bad (I actually agree price should be better) then more power to you. As I said elsewhere I may debate build theory with the person on the other side of the aisle as that's what players do from time to time, but they are entitled to their opinions and I am entitled to mine. Maybe we borrow ideas from each other, maybe we don't. What I DO however care about is when folks try push elitism and gatekeeping under the guise of "avoiding a noob trap."
A couple of things on this particular bit before I wrap this up. Simply because they don't put a ship out someone wants the instant that person snaps their fingers does NOT mean they have forgotten about that ship, or won't be doing anything with it. They're not going to tell you every single plan that they have straight out of the gate. Personally I would have thought we would have a t6 Nova and Oberth by now for that matter, but for whatever reason that hasn't happened yet. Sometimes it can take awhile to get certain ships in game as they must be greenlit by CBS and sometimes rights holders to those ships depending on where that ship originated from initially. I know you don't want to hear that and will think it's a cop out, or I'm putting some kind of Cryptic apologist spin on it to make the game look good, but that's simply the reality of things. They know folks want a Nova, Oberth, and several other ships. The folks at Cryptic are terrible liars, and if they weren't going to do something with those ships they never would've said anything about not forgetting them.
I agree there should have been more KDF ships in this bundle, at least a Negh'var and Koloth or Bortisque or something. For whatever reason however they haven't. Folks will have to make the decision to buy or not buy on their own. You are not wrong if you decide to forgo this pack, nor are you wrong if you do buy the pack. Though I have to ask, if folks aren't going to buy the pack anyways, why such a fuss? Either buy it or don't. I fear however that those ships will all end up in single packs because folks complained previously "if you would sell the ships individually instead of in a 10 ship bundle for $300, we would buy them individually," when the first pack was around. Then folks will simply complain again when it becomes a pack like the Legend Tliss because "too much fluff" and it's not the price point they wanted, and it will be yet another case of Cryptic can do no right, even when giving folks what they said they wanted.
Finally, I can assure you that they ignore flaming rants and don't pay them any mind. Folks can be blunt and to the point without needing to make a flaming rant against the company, and be as critical as one needs to be while still being respectful and civil. Alot of folks said they weren't going to buy if they didn't make some improvements and were going to vote with their wallets. Folks said the stats needed to be better, and more value needed to be added to the pack. Value is subjective in this instance and up to each person to decide if they're going to buy or not. I can't make that decision for you, nor can you make that decision for me. At the end of the day you're entitled to your opinions.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
Flexibility? The L. Vorcha has one more uni BOFF slot over the Vor'ral. True, but barely, and only if you don't have a plan to do a build with no science BOFF.
Defense abilities? Like suppression barrage? CIF is arguably better. Overwhelm emitters is nice too, but are they better than standard engineering powers somehow? I'll give that you have more options, but whether they are meaningful is questionable.
Price point, this one is obvious, but it can't be understated that this is also in whether the L. Vorcha is actually worth the increased price. If every "plus" the L. Vorcha has is only a slight advantage, this hurts it more.
Energy weapons build is better with the (original) L.Vorcha? How do you figure that? Command doesn't do much for you here. The MW BOFF is only an LT, while Temporal has rapid decay and recursive shearing to play with, and you can't just ignore the Temporal death ray. 5/3 with the low turn rate is not good for a cannon ship, and DBB isn't much better.
Who is saying that someone can't like the ship? I don't recall reading anyone being shouted down because they said they liked the L Vor'cha in its original stats.
Even if you do want to tank with it though, there are better options. I don't see what the L. Vor'cha does for tanking that other ships can't do better. You can tank with a Defiant if you want, that doesn't make it the best choice for it.
Again, though, who is saying you can't do what you want with it?
Command is an objectively inferior specialization. With the exception of a few, the BOFF powers are far too situational, niche, long recharging, and generally a PITA to use well or even at all. The gimmick only becomes useful in long duration battles, and only while you're spamming BOFF abilities, but if half of your abilities are more situational/healing and you have no reason to use them, you're not charging the inspiration very fast, especially so if you're not using command BOFF powers because they suck. That's just a fact.
Command needs serious reworking. It was designed in a different era and flow of the game as one of the first specializations, and doesn't stand up today. Intel needs work too.
And it being inferior doesn't mean you can't like it, nor that you can't find use for some of it. It just means its worse than all the rest, aka bad.
Calling a ship objectively bad, even if it isn't, is neither elitism nor gatekeeping, it is an opinion that may or may not be backed up by facts.
No one can possibly stop someone from buying a bad ship and thus gatekeep. It is impossible and absurd to suggest.
It also can't be elitism when there's zero social impact in any of this here. No one is saying they won't let you in their group because you fly the L. Vor'cha, or that they are better than you because you fly that ship or any other. People say any given ship is bad because of how it compares to similar ships and that is not elitism, its analysis.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
But thank you @foxrockssocks. I appreciate your effort, probably much more than you'll ever know.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
Here we go again. For as long as you do not provide any information about forum rules stating to what depth level or explenation standards the criticism about game relases are required to go into your replies have a hard time being understood propperly.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.