What are the Khitomer views on cloaking technology and genetic engineering, we know that Klingons and Romulans don't like sharing their cloaking tech with the Feds and the Feds obviously don't like genetic engineering unlike the Dominion.
...we know that Klingons and Romulans don't like sharing their cloaking tech with the Feds...
To be fair... Klingons probably didn't care. The only ones who DID were the Romulans. Specifically the Romulan Star Empire, which signed the Treaty of Algeron, which prohibited the Federation from developing Cloaking Technology of its own.
The treaty reinforced and redefined the Romulan Neutral Zone, and made clear that any violations of the Zone without adequate notification, by either side, would be considered an act of war. (TNG: "The Defector"; ENT: "These Are the Voyages...") The treaty also expressly prohibited the development or use of cloaking device technology by the Federation. Then-Captain Pressman attempted to circumvent this clause in 2358 with the test of a phasing cloaking device developed covertly at least in some part by Starfleet Intelligence aboard the USS Pegasus. (TNG: "The Pegasus")
Also there was no mention of the Cloaked, Self-Replicating Mines being a Violation of Treaty, meaning either the mines didn't fall under the Treaty, or the cloaks may have been of Klingon origin rather than Federation.
Now... as to the OP... seeing as how the Romulan Star Empire is defunct and/or otherwise unable to enforce the Treaty, the Treaty of Algeron is for all intents and purposes null and void. Starfleet CAN develop cloaking technology now. However Starfleet is at least decades behind in cloak research.
And we have seen several "new" Federation ships with cloaking technology, namely the Avenger line, which can equip cloaks, and the Intel ships, which have them built in.
*New meaning in universe, as technically the game only spans 4 years of time in universe.
Romulans however did originally share their Cloaking Technology with the Fed's on the Defiant, when faced by concerns raised by the Dominion Threat.
The Federation probably later used some of this, not to mention some of the earlier Federation Technology, as that's likely the basis of what we see in Intel ships.
Remember: Riker got in Trouble with Picard, when his former Commanding Officer, and later a Rear Admiral visited the Enterprise.
I doubt they still hold those same attitudes we've become familiar with.
The Republic, and D'Tan, have moved away from sneaky behaviour. They likely don't intend to use those cloaks as an advantage anymore, against someone who they have declared an ally.
Wasn't there also something in the STO lore that the Treaty of Algeron actually doesn't apply anymore due to the destruction of Romulus?
As for genetic engineering: it was largely banned on Earth because of the Eugenic Wars and Khan, right? So basically the idea of 'once we start doing it, there's no way to control it'.
Sounds similar to the first season of Picard, right?
Maybe STO could do a storyline that, once the synth-ban is undone, the same happens with the ban on genetic engineering.
[4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother
If the undoing of the synth-ban is actually going to be part of the Picard storyline, of course.
Otherwise it might not make much sense to link to that in STO.
It happened in the finale. There was a time skip or something and everything is fine now.
I dont really see the Khitomer Alliance as having policies on this or really anything, it's policy is, no fighting each other, everyone fight threats to all of us. Every members internal policies are probs uneffected?
> @starshine#7408 said: > The republic seem to be federation bootlickers so, the UFP would completely say they were legal successor
Considering the Republic allied with nation that was at the time a known enemy of UFP, calling them "bootlickers" seems at best uncalled for. That said UFP and KE seem to consider the republic to be the true successor to RSE, rather then rump state called "Romulan Star Empire".
> @starshine#7408 said:
> The republic seem to be federation bootlickers so, the UFP would completely say they were legal successor
Considering the Republic allied with nation that was at the time a known enemy of UFP, calling them "bootlickers" seems at best uncalled for. That said UFP and KE seem to consider the republic to be the true successor to RSE, rather then rump state called "Romulan Star Empire".
True but considering that, at some level, the Republic was born out of the resistance movement against what was left of the Empire, it would seem illogical to hold the Republic to the Empire's treaty commitments.... they're essentially a new state created by rebels, not a reform of the existing state.
(To note: in real world, the 1778 French/American "perpetual alliance" was dissolved during the French Revolution - less than 15 years later! - on a similar premise: that the French Republic was not legally a successor state and thus was not bound by the royal government's commitments. The French Republic also re-imposed taxes on a town - Domremy-la-Pucelle - that had been given perpetual tax-free status by royal decree in 1430.)
I agree, the Romulan Republic is most definitely a rebel state, and clearly not a successor to the RSE, but a breakaway state.
Now, the French very clearly got rid of their monarchy. The RSE still has/had an empress, a legitimate ruling authority, however weakened that authority was, the entity was still in existence.
So while its clear the Federation doesn't need to uphold any prior treaties with the RSE with respect to the Republic, I'd say it is a strong argument that the Federation simply broke the treaty because the RSE still exists at the start of the game, at least up until Sela is arrested.
I'd say China during the Three Kingdoms period would resemble the current state of Romulan Space more the 18th century France did. With the Republic taking the role of the Wei (or more accurately the Jin) as the true successors and the modern RSE being in the role of the (shu) Han of having links to the old power but ultimately being more the last gasps of the fading power rather the the successor to the empire.
Yes RSE has technically an empress but a)she's a prisoner of a foreign power b) doesn't really have any true power outside the Rator system, one could also argue that modern RSE isn't really the same from before Hobus but rather a attempt at a successor born from the Romulan Free States.
A successor state that was pretty much puppeted by the Iconians as well, and was pretty much under the direct control of the Tal Shiar after Sela was taken by the Iconians.
Honestly whatever remains of the Star Empire is in no condition to enforce any treaties or can be considered a superpower. Its a failed state that got wrecked. Anything left is just clinging to survival right now and not anything like the political entity it once was.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Honestly whatever remains of the Star Empire is in no condition to enforce any treaties or can be considered a superpower. Its a failed state that got wrecked. Anything left is just clinging to survival right now and not anything like the political entity it once was.
Based on the state of the RSE atm I'd say you could say it's not a political entity at all, especially if they've lost their main powerbase at the Rator system (the de facto capital of the RSE) they've pretty much lost everything making then worth considering in the Alpha/Beta Quadrant politics.
she doesn't have power IN the rator system anymore either - that's now part of republic space
What's the capital of the RSE now then? It was Rator III after Romulus but if that's in Republic space where is the RSE capital now?
not really sure - and i made a slight mistake; the most recent update to the political map (AKA, the same map you see when ingame on the galaxy view tab) actually shows it being in federation space (just barely, but still federation space), not republic - though i believe it still might be a republic world anyway, because i recall one of cryptic's story blogs mentioning several worlds that defected from the self-destructing RSE to the RR, and i think rator might've been one of them
that i'm not actually sure on, though, or even which blog it might've been brought up in - i'd have to go hunting for it
EDIT: okay, i did find the lore blog in question, but it didn't mention specific defections, just that colonies were defecting in greater numbers, so rator 3 MAY actually still be the RSE capital...though, being that close to federation borders - i really wouldn't want to keep my capital there if i were the RSE
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Sela was cartoon bad guys that didnt make sense but, D'Tans republic just feels, westernised people rejecting their history and culture to be the superpower. Especially with the reunification philosphy being so much, on vulcan terms, become more like vulcans line. Romulans rejecting their identity to be more like the federation, its the claim of federation enemies that the federation assimilates, takes other cultures strips of identity and turns them into it from that conversation in DS9 and speech in Disco, but happening suddenly.
But its justified because the only other romulans we see in game, are the saturday morning cartoon Sela's empire and it's literally being a front for evil aliens who will kill all romulans...
Sela was cartoon bad guys that didnt make sense but, D'Tans republic just feels, westernised people rejecting their history and culture to be the superpower. Especially with the reunification philosphy being so much, on vulcan terms, become more like vulcans line. Romulans rejecting their identity to be more like the federation, its the claim of federation enemies that the federation assimilates, takes other cultures strips of identity and turns them into it from that conversation in DS9 and speech in Disco, but happening suddenly.
But its justified because the only other romulans we see in game, are the saturday morning cartoon Sela's empire and it's literally being a front for evil aliens who will kill all romulans...
Yeah, that 'the Federation assimilates' has been debunked thoroughly.
People need to understand the difference between wilfully joining a larger alliance that regulates some stuff that is of concern to all members on the one hand, and forced membership of a large whole where any and all freedoms you have, are taken away from you.
It's just silly, nothing else.
[4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother
Cultures are always in development. They're not this stagnant thing that one should indefinitely hold onto. If that were actually done, most people nowadays in the western world wouldn't even recognise their own culture.
In my country (the Netherlands) we have this discussion about removing statues from historical figures who were involved in slave trade and colonisation efforts. Some of the opponents of such a move, argue that those in favour are just cultural marxists who want to eradicate our culture or even destroy our cilivisation (yes, there are crazy ones amongst them who are claiming that our culture is on the verge of disappearing - as if such a thing were even possible without, at least, everyone dying).
They ignore the basic fact that progress through considering and learning about one's own past, critically reflecting on it and gaining the insight and then acknowledging that some decisions that were made in the past, don't rhyme with who we are today, are not the destruction of culture. It is, after all, largely a cultural process that leads your people to make a new decision.
If removing a statue equals destroying a culture, then placing it would basically be the same thing. Both are acts of change consciously carried out by a group of people, who decide who and what they want to honour.
To argue that changes can only be made once and then never again (i.e., you can place a statue, but never do anything to it), is actually removing all sorts of agency from a people. That is probably more 'taking away' someone's culture, than changing it through deliberation, reflection and discussion.
Likewise, Romulans (note: they themselves) abandoning or trying to rein in the traits that nearly led to their total destruction, isn't 'rejecting' one's culture. If respecting a culture meant that you can never change it, it would basically mean that culture doesn't exist. Stagnancy doesn't exist in the real world. It has all changed before and it will keep changing forever.
And even if it did exist, it wouldn't be 'your' culture anyway if you have nothing to say about it. People have cultures, not the other way around. It is thus the people who define their culture, and not some previous version of said culture that is apparently to decide for itself what can and can't be changed.
Tl;dr: Romulans changing their own habits, is not the rejection of their culture. It may be considered cultural change, at best.
[4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother
also, the 'culture' we see in TNG onward is more like a diseased version of the culture seen in TOS anyway - they were not a hegemonic police state back then, and while they were definitely cunning and sneaky, it was not to the same extremes shown from the 80s into modern times
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
A successor state that was pretty much puppeted by the Iconians as well, and was pretty much under the direct control of the Tal Shiar after Sela was taken by the Iconians.
Honestly whatever remains of the Star Empire is in no condition to enforce any treaties or can be considered a superpower. Its a failed state that got wrecked. Anything left is just clinging to survival right now and not anything like the political entity it once was.
Absolutely. However, your first line is totally unknown until the events of the game. When did the UFP start putting out ships with cloaks and thus break the treaty? I don't think we can argue it didn't happen until after those events.
However the idea that the RSE can't enforce treaties, thus no one should care about those treaties is a bad bad precedent. It means your treaties are garbage and no one should trust you unless they are on your power level. Certainly the events in the game give plenty of reason to finally end the treaties as the RSE is definitely defunct as an independent state.
Regarding my previous comment about the Treaty of Algeron:
It took three months for Federation President Aennik Okeg to convince the Romulans and the Klingons to send representatives to a summit to discuss the situation. When the meeting finally began, Okeg made the Federation's position clear. He apologized for the experiments into cloaking technology, and said that he had signed an executive order banning all research into or creation of Federation cloaking technology. "The narrow legal view may be that the Treaty of Algeron ended when Romulus was destroyed," Okeg said. "The Romulan Star Empire we knew is gone, and you are a new people. What has not changed is the Federation's commitment to peace."
I knew for sure that something was stated about it, somewhere in STO's lore. Though apparently it's more of a legal opinion expressed by some, and not so much an active policy principle. But anyhow, it seems the Treaty of Algeron itself wasn't that important in the end, when considering the Federation's legal stance towards cloaking technology.
Though of course, given what is happening in-game, this comment of Okeg's makes little sense or it has been changed later on.
Bear in mind that the Khitomer alliance is not a government, it's more akin to NATO. A unified force created to counter threats on a scale that an individual member state could not handle alone.
As a result it won't have the federations prohibition about cloaks as the KDF doesn't and the alliance is drawn from both.
Same with the tech, if we look at NATO equipment, which was standardised and came from many NATO nations.
In regards to RSE, they're in no condition to enforce their part of any inter stellar treaties they're part of and that's assuming UFP or KE recognize them as a valid successor to pre-Hobus RSE.
Comments
To be fair... Klingons probably didn't care. The only ones who DID were the Romulans. Specifically the Romulan Star Empire, which signed the Treaty of Algeron, which prohibited the Federation from developing Cloaking Technology of its own.
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Treaty_of_Algeron
Also there was no mention of the Cloaked, Self-Replicating Mines being a Violation of Treaty, meaning either the mines didn't fall under the Treaty, or the cloaks may have been of Klingon origin rather than Federation.
Now... as to the OP... seeing as how the Romulan Star Empire is defunct and/or otherwise unable to enforce the Treaty, the Treaty of Algeron is for all intents and purposes null and void. Starfleet CAN develop cloaking technology now. However Starfleet is at least decades behind in cloak research.
And we have seen several "new" Federation ships with cloaking technology, namely the Avenger line, which can equip cloaks, and the Intel ships, which have them built in.
*New meaning in universe, as technically the game only spans 4 years of time in universe.
The Federation probably later used some of this, not to mention some of the earlier Federation Technology, as that's likely the basis of what we see in Intel ships.
Remember: Riker got in Trouble with Picard, when his former Commanding Officer, and later a Rear Admiral visited the Enterprise.
The Republic, and D'Tan, have moved away from sneaky behaviour. They likely don't intend to use those cloaks as an advantage anymore, against someone who they have declared an ally.
Wasn't there also something in the STO lore that the Treaty of Algeron actually doesn't apply anymore due to the destruction of Romulus?
As for genetic engineering: it was largely banned on Earth because of the Eugenic Wars and Khan, right? So basically the idea of 'once we start doing it, there's no way to control it'.
Sounds similar to the first season of Picard, right?
Maybe STO could do a storyline that, once the synth-ban is undone, the same happens with the ban on genetic engineering.
[3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
Otherwise it might not make much sense to link to that in STO.
[3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
It happened in the finale. There was a time skip or something and everything is fine now.
I dont really see the Khitomer Alliance as having policies on this or really anything, it's policy is, no fighting each other, everyone fight threats to all of us. Every members internal policies are probs uneffected?
Bring the Enterprise XCV-330 to STO
Bring the Enterprise XCV-330 to STO
> The republic seem to be federation bootlickers so, the UFP would completely say they were legal successor
Considering the Republic allied with nation that was at the time a known enemy of UFP, calling them "bootlickers" seems at best uncalled for. That said UFP and KE seem to consider the republic to be the true successor to RSE, rather then rump state called "Romulan Star Empire".
I agree, the Romulan Republic is most definitely a rebel state, and clearly not a successor to the RSE, but a breakaway state.
Now, the French very clearly got rid of their monarchy. The RSE still has/had an empress, a legitimate ruling authority, however weakened that authority was, the entity was still in existence.
So while its clear the Federation doesn't need to uphold any prior treaties with the RSE with respect to the Republic, I'd say it is a strong argument that the Federation simply broke the treaty because the RSE still exists at the start of the game, at least up until Sela is arrested.
Yes RSE has technically an empress but a)she's a prisoner of a foreign power b) doesn't really have any true power outside the Rator system, one could also argue that modern RSE isn't really the same from before Hobus but rather a attempt at a successor born from the Romulan Free States.
Honestly whatever remains of the Star Empire is in no condition to enforce any treaties or can be considered a superpower. Its a failed state that got wrecked. Anything left is just clinging to survival right now and not anything like the political entity it once was.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
What's the capital of the RSE now then? It was Rator III after Romulus but if that's in Republic space where is the RSE capital now?
not really sure - and i made a slight mistake; the most recent update to the political map (AKA, the same map you see when ingame on the galaxy view tab) actually shows it being in federation space (just barely, but still federation space), not republic - though i believe it still might be a republic world anyway, because i recall one of cryptic's story blogs mentioning several worlds that defected from the self-destructing RSE to the RR, and i think rator might've been one of them
that i'm not actually sure on, though, or even which blog it might've been brought up in - i'd have to go hunting for it
EDIT: okay, i did find the lore blog in question, but it didn't mention specific defections, just that colonies were defecting in greater numbers, so rator 3 MAY actually still be the RSE capital...though, being that close to federation borders - i really wouldn't want to keep my capital there if i were the RSE
map here
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
But its justified because the only other romulans we see in game, are the saturday morning cartoon Sela's empire and it's literally being a front for evil aliens who will kill all romulans...
Bring the Enterprise XCV-330 to STO
Yeah, that 'the Federation assimilates' has been debunked thoroughly.
People need to understand the difference between wilfully joining a larger alliance that regulates some stuff that is of concern to all members on the one hand, and forced membership of a large whole where any and all freedoms you have, are taken away from you.
It's just silly, nothing else.
[3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
Cultures are always in development. They're not this stagnant thing that one should indefinitely hold onto. If that were actually done, most people nowadays in the western world wouldn't even recognise their own culture.
In my country (the Netherlands) we have this discussion about removing statues from historical figures who were involved in slave trade and colonisation efforts. Some of the opponents of such a move, argue that those in favour are just cultural marxists who want to eradicate our culture or even destroy our cilivisation (yes, there are crazy ones amongst them who are claiming that our culture is on the verge of disappearing - as if such a thing were even possible without, at least, everyone dying).
They ignore the basic fact that progress through considering and learning about one's own past, critically reflecting on it and gaining the insight and then acknowledging that some decisions that were made in the past, don't rhyme with who we are today, are not the destruction of culture. It is, after all, largely a cultural process that leads your people to make a new decision.
If removing a statue equals destroying a culture, then placing it would basically be the same thing. Both are acts of change consciously carried out by a group of people, who decide who and what they want to honour.
To argue that changes can only be made once and then never again (i.e., you can place a statue, but never do anything to it), is actually removing all sorts of agency from a people. That is probably more 'taking away' someone's culture, than changing it through deliberation, reflection and discussion.
Likewise, Romulans (note: they themselves) abandoning or trying to rein in the traits that nearly led to their total destruction, isn't 'rejecting' one's culture. If respecting a culture meant that you can never change it, it would basically mean that culture doesn't exist. Stagnancy doesn't exist in the real world. It has all changed before and it will keep changing forever.
And even if it did exist, it wouldn't be 'your' culture anyway if you have nothing to say about it. People have cultures, not the other way around. It is thus the people who define their culture, and not some previous version of said culture that is apparently to decide for itself what can and can't be changed.
Tl;dr: Romulans changing their own habits, is not the rejection of their culture. It may be considered cultural change, at best.
[3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Absolutely. However, your first line is totally unknown until the events of the game. When did the UFP start putting out ships with cloaks and thus break the treaty? I don't think we can argue it didn't happen until after those events.
However the idea that the RSE can't enforce treaties, thus no one should care about those treaties is a bad bad precedent. It means your treaties are garbage and no one should trust you unless they are on your power level. Certainly the events in the game give plenty of reason to finally end the treaties as the RSE is definitely defunct as an independent state.
I knew for sure that something was stated about it, somewhere in STO's lore. Though apparently it's more of a legal opinion expressed by some, and not so much an active policy principle. But anyhow, it seems the Treaty of Algeron itself wasn't that important in the end, when considering the Federation's legal stance towards cloaking technology.
Though of course, given what is happening in-game, this comment of Okeg's makes little sense or it has been changed later on.
https://memory-beta.fandom.com/wiki/The_Path_to_2409
[3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
As a result it won't have the federations prohibition about cloaks as the KDF doesn't and the alliance is drawn from both.
Same with the tech, if we look at NATO equipment, which was standardised and came from many NATO nations.