I just don't understand what reason or logic there was in removing these missions
Easy, those missions represented some of the worst of launch era STO mission design, with maps being just "warp in, kill 10 space groups, beams down, kill 15 ground groups, beam up, kill 10 more space groups". Not to mention the unforgivably bad VA for the Guardian. The absolute last thing you want a new player to see is something that horrible right at the start of the game. It sets a bad precedent about the quality of the game, and it always better to not have something, then to have bad something.
This is also why Cryptic removed many of the old TFOs, like Starbase 24, Gorn Minefield/Punch Through the Federation Blockade, Slowing the Expeditionary Force, and Breaking the Planet, and ended up revamping them into Defense of Starbase One, Romulan Imperial Minefield, Battle at the Binary Stars, and Pahvo Dissension. As well as making changes to the various Klingon War missions that didn't get removed, adding in new VA, removing excess enemy encounters, rewriting dialog, etc. etc. They were trying to revamp the earliest part of the game so it was at least somewhat presentable to all the new people coming in due to the Discovery tie in.
I think I believe this fully, it makes sense and happens in other games as well.
Yet Cryptic continues to have the worst proof reading in the industry (IMHO), which means the "precedent about the game" is determined before the game is even installed.
I specifically recall Cryptic mentioning that they literally can't toss out Spock's VA work, because there's no way to get more at this point. So its staying, at least for Spock.
Yea, well, they've basically been tossing out a bunch of that VA work by cutting those missions for the last two years.
I actually quite liked the Guardian of Forever mission. It was a great throwback to one of the best TOS episodes, they would do well to consider reintroducing it at some point.
One thing I'd love to see Cryptic do, is to make a mission arc that doesn't necessarily have some new "threat" to justify the constant pew pews. One of my favourite missions in the entire game is the one where you have to stabilise the Lukari star. Even if you take away most of the combat, it's still a cool mission. Scanning anomalies, understanding what's happening, making first contact with a species and then using probes to save the star. It's classic Trek, sadly we get very little of it in favour of the "galactic threat of the week" type arc.
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Curious if anyone has heard any status update on these classics, that where promised to return but are still missing.
State of Q
City on the Edge of Never
Past Imperfect
Are these ever returning, did the Devs just decide meh and move on?
They'll be back when the Foundry, Exploration, and the Calendar returns.
You forgot the 'STO Gateway' - Remember Gekko himself said the DOFF UI revamp meant they could more easily redo the STO Gateway stuff...
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,669Community Moderator
Didn't Cryptic try something like that with Neverwinter's version, and they discovered it was being exploited all to hell?
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
People don't remember the Guardian of Forever because the mission design, they remember it because it was one of the very, very few moments of the game that actually had VO at the time. Couple that with how amusingly, legendarily bad the VO was, and you have an instant classic, a cornerstone of the early STO experience that defies the bad missions it was a part of.
I don't disagree with them being removed since they well and truly don't line up with... anything anymore, really. But at the very least, the mission(s) deserve a revamp as much or moreso than any other currently un-revamped mission, and with as much of the original Guardian's dialog in place as possible, if at all.
I mean, hell. Considering the plot we've got so far for the Year of the Klingon, revamping the Kuvah'magh plotline those missions were built around would be something of a no-brainer anyway, wouldn't you think?
As for State of Q, unless they do something really fun with it, it's really best left behind. It had none of the things City on the Edge of Never/Past Imperfect did but all of the same bad, antiquated design problems.
couldn't care less about the those one of a kind "exploration" missions and older "sub standard" missions. But the removal of the Foundry actually is bugging me...see I just recently had a replay of 25th anniversary and Judgement Rites and wanted to spend the summer to rebuild a mission or more from those games in the Foundry, but... *sigh*
Contradicts everything here and in nearly all threads posted in
You remind me of the guy in the argument Monty Python sketch (https://youtu.be/xpAvcGcEc0k?t=91). No matter what anyone one says you always take the opposing viewpoint, as silly silly as your 'argument' may be.
I think the old Dominion arc was removed too after VA got screwed with both old and new vorta voices being heard, same for cardassian representative etc
If you're talking about the old FE series where we meet Loriss for the first time... it wasn't removed. Just moved to the "Available" tab and is not part of the main story anymore. Same with the rest of the FE series like the Breen and Dividian arcs.
I see, I will re-check one of these days to see if the Voice Over hiccups got fixed on them
See that's what you don't seem to get, Som... What you perceive, and what Cryptic perceives is different from what others perceive. You see the removed content as something that is a poor example of mission quality due to design. Cryptic may look at it that way too, but others see it as valuable, as it represented something Iconic to Star Trek, be it the voice of Nimoy as Spock, which we will never get again, or the Guardian of Forever, one of the most memorable elements from TOS...
It's the same with your perception of exploration, and how you keep saying that exploration is not what Star Trek is about and so the game can do without it... OTHER people perceive exploration to be the very reason why we're out there flying starships to begin with... To them, it's not only important, but FUNDAMENTAL..
People will perceive any number of things in a work, however, all of that is pointless when faced with what the actual point of said work was, as stated by the author, or authors.
You are essentially trying to use the "English teacher book report" argument, where they go on about "what do you think the book was about?!" which is a pointless question to ask, or do a report about, when I can just look up what the the author stated what the book was about. Since thats the only thing that matters.
Exploration. Foundry. Older missions, In-game calendars... All things that the game had but does not have anymore. I have already seen STO as being far less than it could be, but I also am seeing it as being less than it has been as well. And in my perception, that's not good.
The only thing you have seen STO not be is not be what your, already debunked, and dismantled, dreams of what the game(nor any game for that matter) could never actually be due to feasibility reasons.
This is exactly why its bad to think the way you do, and why people like you do nothing but try to constantly push ideas that could never work. You live in fiction because you can't understand, or don't want to accept, facts.
Upon further reviewing and contemplating I award @sirsitsalot 10 points and the "he's right and you're not getting it" medal.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,669Community Moderator
I can't wait to kick B'vat again. Wonder how J'Ula will factor into it since we know she appeared sometime in 2409, just like our DSC Feds, and has been laying low until now.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
See that's what you don't seem to get, Som... What you perceive, and what Cryptic perceives is different from what others perceive. You see the removed content as something that is a poor example of mission quality due to design. Cryptic may look at it that way too, but others see it as valuable, as it represented something Iconic to Star Trek, be it the voice of Nimoy as Spock, which we will never get again, or the Guardian of Forever, one of the most memorable elements from TOS...
It's the same with your perception of exploration, and how you keep saying that exploration is not what Star Trek is about and so the game can do without it... OTHER people perceive exploration to be the very reason why we're out there flying starships to begin with... To them, it's not only important, but FUNDAMENTAL..
People will perceive any number of things in a work, however, all of that is pointless when faced with what the actual point of said work was, as stated by the author, or authors.
You are essentially trying to use the "English teacher book report" argument, where they go on about "what do you think the book was about?!" which is a pointless question to ask, or do a report about, when I can just look up what the the author stated what the book was about. Since thats the only thing that matters.
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot? You seriously lack the ability to see something in an expressive or artistic work that is beyond, tangential, or unintended to what the creator said it was about? You believe that people who find meaning, enjoyment, or whatever in something beyond what the creator stated are just wrong, or even that the creator of the work can't lie about it or be incompetent at getting their ideas across?
I feel sorry for you, assuming I should take you seriously, and you completely missed the point of book reports.
I think most people can look at something and get their own meaning from it, maybe its similar to what the creator intended, but maybe its something else entirely. I can write a story, say its about pink elephants, but no where in the story is anything pink, elephantine, nor plural. What is it really about then? Maybe it is about pink elephants in a metaphorical sense, but there are also strong subplots that someone can find compelling and grab onto easier.
Bottom line, its nice to know what the creator intended, but once its out there people can draw their own conclusions, and what the creator says is irrelevant.
The shows did not focus on exploration, true. But a branch of the game could.
Concerning the Exploration part you mentioned, that the game could do...
Yes, it could, but would it be satisfying? Would it be "Exploration" even? The last itteration definitely wasn't anything close to exploration.
Sorry, while a MMORPG game definitely, theoretically has the potential to do many things, it almost certainly will fall short of whatever you could imagine. First, Cryptic is not a developer studio that could even endeavor on such an ambitious journey. Certainly not for a 10 year old game! I mean the Foundry was already HUGE for them. (Probably the main reason why they were bought by PWE)
In a way, the Foundry was supposed to be all that..but the community failed it, imho. Maybe it wasn't developed enough, but the playerbase definitely had a hand in killing it as a viable gameplay tool for "Exploration content" in the end. I have no numbers, so this is pure speculation based on 10 years experience with STO. Appart from the exploits, that crashed Cryptics (main) source of income from STO (dillithium exchange), not many really dove into creating and playing player created content. I mean, yes it existed and I played it too many times, but at the end... it wasn't the source of endgame I assume it was supposed to be. I mean Cryptic has the data, I don't but I can only assume it was as popular as ground PVP.
All in all, a game can do many things, but has also frustrating limitations. Te question remains, why they took it out...well, they answered it: They have a vision for the game...that type of content didn't fit that vision anymore. I guess to them it is not about leaving everything in, in the sense of quantity over quality, but about the whole thing being an "art piece" they take pride in...or bluntly, stuff they deem disruptive (as those "exploration" missions actually were) to the flow of the storyline just gets cut. The last one was actually their explanation, and I understand that...many did not.
So, your assumption is not actually correct, games definitely have limits in expanding franchises...just like TV shows. Even the procedural universe games are repetitive pretty quickly (I played and still play NMS and Elite for hundreds of hours each).
As an aside to the ongoing, heated discussion, I'd like to say something.
Even if the missions that were removed were older, lower quality content, the stories they covered were crucial to the ongoing storyline in STO now. There's actually a bunch of spots where their events are mentioned, but you can't play through them. For example, a point where someone might mention you having dealt with B'Vat, or Miral Paris mentioning in Delta Flight how you previously worked together. It's even worse on the Klingon side, because Nimbus was stripped out and made a non-obvious quest zone you need to look for, because the tutorial arc builds up to the question of "you need to find the stolen weapons that are going to Nimbus"... then whoops you get whisked off to deal with Romulans and it's never mentioned again.
I believe there's also some references to missing featured episode arcs (which were ripped out to only be available if you know where to look, at max level) during other missions that take place after when they used to fit into the game's storyline. (The missing arcs being Specters, Cold War, and The 2800.) The 2800 being removed from the normal mission arcs is especially baffling because it contains events integral to the game's current story;
Taris's escape from prison, peace with the Dominion, and the introduction of Captain Shon and the new Enterprise, as well as probably containing more Iconian War buildup hints.
That's some pretty essential stuff. I believe there's also references to events of all of these arcs through parts of the game's later story, as well, such as
the preserver facility brought up in the Iconian war being first introduced in the Cold War arc.
Due to this, it's essential that these particular missions are given time for rework so they can be added back, because right now the game's storylines are full of holes early on because of it. I know it'd confuse new players to see stuff like that missing plotline in the Klingon tutorial arc. That and it's a perfect time to reconnect the Klingon missions, at least (like giving Feds and KDF the Nimbus arc back in the mission journal, or giving Feds back the rest of the Klingon War arc after a rework), because of them involving Klingons so integrally, and it's "the year of the Klingon" right now.
im with whoever said put a big note in these lost/removed missions that says, "play at your own risk," and put them under a tab called "classic STO" and leave it at that.
Comments
I think I believe this fully, it makes sense and happens in other games as well.
Yet Cryptic continues to have the worst proof reading in the industry (IMHO), which means the "precedent about the game" is determined before the game is even installed.
Yea, well, they've basically been tossing out a bunch of that VA work by cutting those missions for the last two years.
One thing I'd love to see Cryptic do, is to make a mission arc that doesn't necessarily have some new "threat" to justify the constant pew pews. One of my favourite missions in the entire game is the one where you have to stabilise the Lukari star. Even if you take away most of the combat, it's still a cool mission. Scanning anomalies, understanding what's happening, making first contact with a species and then using probes to save the star. It's classic Trek, sadly we get very little of it in favour of the "galactic threat of the week" type arc.
Looking for a dedicated Star Trek community? Visit www.ufplanets.com for details.
You forgot the 'STO Gateway' - Remember Gekko himself said the DOFF UI revamp meant they could more easily redo the STO Gateway stuff...
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
colored text = mod mode
I don't disagree with them being removed since they well and truly don't line up with... anything anymore, really. But at the very least, the mission(s) deserve a revamp as much or moreso than any other currently un-revamped mission, and with as much of the original Guardian's dialog in place as possible, if at all.
I mean, hell. Considering the plot we've got so far for the Year of the Klingon, revamping the Kuvah'magh plotline those missions were built around would be something of a no-brainer anyway, wouldn't you think?
As for State of Q, unless they do something really fun with it, it's really best left behind. It had none of the things City on the Edge of Never/Past Imperfect did but all of the same bad, antiquated design problems.
I Support Disco | Disco is Love | Disco is Life
Spock to Kirk, as Kirk is about to hug him.
Star Trek V: "The Final Frontier"
You remind me of the guy in the argument Monty Python sketch (https://youtu.be/xpAvcGcEc0k?t=91). No matter what anyone one says you always take the opposing viewpoint, as silly silly as your 'argument' may be.
Time to start calling you Mr. Contradiction.
arcgames.com/en/forums/startrekonline/#/discussion/1203368/pve-content-a-list-of-gamewide-polishing-pass-suggestions
I see, I will re-check one of these days to see if the Voice Over hiccups got fixed on them
Upon further reviewing and contemplating I award @sirsitsalot 10 points and the "he's right and you're not getting it" medal.
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
colored text = mod mode
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot? You seriously lack the ability to see something in an expressive or artistic work that is beyond, tangential, or unintended to what the creator said it was about? You believe that people who find meaning, enjoyment, or whatever in something beyond what the creator stated are just wrong, or even that the creator of the work can't lie about it or be incompetent at getting their ideas across?
I feel sorry for you, assuming I should take you seriously, and you completely missed the point of book reports.
I think most people can look at something and get their own meaning from it, maybe its similar to what the creator intended, but maybe its something else entirely. I can write a story, say its about pink elephants, but no where in the story is anything pink, elephantine, nor plural. What is it really about then? Maybe it is about pink elephants in a metaphorical sense, but there are also strong subplots that someone can find compelling and grab onto easier.
Bottom line, its nice to know what the creator intended, but once its out there people can draw their own conclusions, and what the creator says is irrelevant.
Concerning the Exploration part you mentioned, that the game could do...
Yes, it could, but would it be satisfying? Would it be "Exploration" even? The last itteration definitely wasn't anything close to exploration.
Sorry, while a MMORPG game definitely, theoretically has the potential to do many things, it almost certainly will fall short of whatever you could imagine. First, Cryptic is not a developer studio that could even endeavor on such an ambitious journey. Certainly not for a 10 year old game! I mean the Foundry was already HUGE for them. (Probably the main reason why they were bought by PWE)
In a way, the Foundry was supposed to be all that..but the community failed it, imho. Maybe it wasn't developed enough, but the playerbase definitely had a hand in killing it as a viable gameplay tool for "Exploration content" in the end. I have no numbers, so this is pure speculation based on 10 years experience with STO. Appart from the exploits, that crashed Cryptics (main) source of income from STO (dillithium exchange), not many really dove into creating and playing player created content. I mean, yes it existed and I played it too many times, but at the end... it wasn't the source of endgame I assume it was supposed to be. I mean Cryptic has the data, I don't but I can only assume it was as popular as ground PVP.
All in all, a game can do many things, but has also frustrating limitations. Te question remains, why they took it out...well, they answered it: They have a vision for the game...that type of content didn't fit that vision anymore. I guess to them it is not about leaving everything in, in the sense of quantity over quality, but about the whole thing being an "art piece" they take pride in...or bluntly, stuff they deem disruptive (as those "exploration" missions actually were) to the flow of the storyline just gets cut. The last one was actually their explanation, and I understand that...many did not.
So, your assumption is not actually correct, games definitely have limits in expanding franchises...just like TV shows. Even the procedural universe games are repetitive pretty quickly (I played and still play NMS and Elite for hundreds of hours each).
Even if the missions that were removed were older, lower quality content, the stories they covered were crucial to the ongoing storyline in STO now. There's actually a bunch of spots where their events are mentioned, but you can't play through them. For example, a point where someone might mention you having dealt with B'Vat, or Miral Paris mentioning in Delta Flight how you previously worked together. It's even worse on the Klingon side, because Nimbus was stripped out and made a non-obvious quest zone you need to look for, because the tutorial arc builds up to the question of "you need to find the stolen weapons that are going to Nimbus"... then whoops you get whisked off to deal with Romulans and it's never mentioned again.
I believe there's also some references to missing featured episode arcs (which were ripped out to only be available if you know where to look, at max level) during other missions that take place after when they used to fit into the game's storyline. (The missing arcs being Specters, Cold War, and The 2800.) The 2800 being removed from the normal mission arcs is especially baffling because it contains events integral to the game's current story;
Due to this, it's essential that these particular missions are given time for rework so they can be added back, because right now the game's storylines are full of holes early on because of it. I know it'd confuse new players to see stuff like that missing plotline in the Klingon tutorial arc. That and it's a perfect time to reconnect the Klingon missions, at least (like giving Feds and KDF the Nimbus arc back in the mission journal, or giving Feds back the rest of the Klingon War arc after a rework), because of them involving Klingons so integrally, and it's "the year of the Klingon" right now.
There's no more to say.