Removed content that was supposed to return

spork87

Curious if anyone has heard any status update on these classics, that where promised to return but are still missing.

State of Q
City on the Edge of Never
Past Imperfect

Are these ever returning, did the Devs just decide meh and move on?

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spork87

somtaawkhar wrote: »

Well
1. State of Q was never supposed to return. They said they would like to fundamentally revamp it, since it no longer made sense with the story as it was, but they never said it was going to happen.

2. The removed Klingon War missions(including City of the Edge of Never, and Past Imperfect, along with some others) were originally supposed to be revamped in February of last year. The dev who was assigned to work on them took time off because his wife had a babay. And then when he got back everyone was neck deep into the 10th anniversary content, so no one had time. Cryptic has said they might get around to revamping those missions once Year of Klingon is over.

Honestly they need to get at least the guardian of forever back in the game, they could put them back as they where for all I care. I just don't understand what reason or logic there was in removing these missions, if they can't get around to actually revamping them just put them back as is, right now the klingon story arc is to short and has no impact of any kind like it used to. Maybe they could work on that while doing their year of the klingons, though why they are giving klingon's a year of attention confuses me, they are played by what 5% of the playerbase didn't we all abandon that idea years ago.

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spork87

somtaawkhar wrote: »

spork87 wrote: »

I just don't understand what reason or logic there was in removing these missions

Easy, those missions represented some of the worst of launch era STO mission design, with maps being just "warp in, kill 10 space groups, beams down, kill 15 ground groups, beam up, kill 10 more space groups". Not to mention the unforgivably bad VA for the Guardian. The absolute last thing you want a new player to see is something that horrible right at the start of the game. It sets a bad precedent about the quality of the game, and it always better to not have something, then to have bad something.

This is also why Cryptic removed many of the old TFOs, like Starbase 24, Gorn Minefield/Punch Through the Federation Blockade, Slowing the Expeditionary Force, and Breaking the Planet, and ended up revamping them into Defense of Starbase One, Romulan Imperial Minefield, Battle at the Binary Stars, and Pahvo Dissension. As well as making changes to the various Klingon War missions that didn't get removed, adding in new VA, removing excess enemy encounters, rewriting dialog, etc. etc. They were trying to revamp the earliest part of the game so it was at least somewhat presentable to all the new people coming in due to the Discovery tie in.

I'd agree on some of the removed, but the city on the edge of never and past imperfect are fan favorites, and have Nimoy's excellent voice acting. I'd rate them as in the top 10 of all missions Cryptic has ever designed.

I could care less about Treasure Trading Station or the Kuvama, just those two missions, and while they are at it they could ditch the doomsday machine mission that dates to the early days, i skip it every playthrough, did it once in 2010 and never again.

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thegrandnagus1

keepcalmchiveon wrote: »

somtaawkhar wrote: »

Well
1. State of Q was never supposed to return. They said they would like to fundamentally revamp it, since it no longer made sense with the story as it was, but they never said it was going to happen.

2. The removed Klingon War missions(including City of the Edge of Never, and Past Imperfect, along with some others) were originally supposed to be revamped in February of last year. The dev who was assigned to work on them took time off because his wife had a babay. And then when he got back everyone was neck deep into the 10th anniversary content, so no one had time. Cryptic has said they might get around to revamping those missions once Year of Klingon is over.

TLDR: these will never return.

Probably true. Now, we may be pleasantly surprised one day, and that would be great. But people definitely shouldn't be expecting this to happen.

theanothername

Maybe Cryptic should try to adapt a "only replace if replacement is tested and ready to ship" policy.

... I can't believe I typed it with a straight face; its Cryptic we are talking about

p331

somtaawkhar wrote: »

The absolute last thing you want a new player to see is something that horrible right at the start of the game. It sets a bad precedent about the quality of the game, and it always better to not have something, then to have bad something.

Have they fixed the bugs in the Starfleet tutorial yet? The last time I played through the tutorial the dialog would reference the Renown instead of the Chimera and the recorded voice for the original Vulcan Captain would play while showing Captain Nog.

Having things like that in a tutorial would make me wonder about the quality of a game if I was a new player.

Edit:
I just played through the tutorial. At the final portion of Vega Colony The original voice audio plays over Nog and Nog's ship is listed as the U.S.S. Renown.

foxrockssocks

I really don't understand removing content you want to revamp when you have yet to revamp it. Just wait until you revamp it. It is nonsense to remove it prior.

davefenestrator

foxrockssocks wrote: »

I really don't understand removing content you want to revamp when you have yet to revamp it. Just wait until you revamp it. It is nonsense to remove it prior.

I understand why they do it: New players. Poorly-designed episodes can drive them away.

However, there's no need to remove them completely. They could be moved to a special "Legends" or "Archives" or "Play At Your Own Risk, You've Been Warned!" section.

foxrockssocks

davefenestrator wrote: »

foxrockssocks wrote: »

I really don't understand removing content you want to revamp when you have yet to revamp it. Just wait until you revamp it. It is nonsense to remove it prior.

I understand why they do it: New players. Poorly-designed episodes can drive them away.

However, there's no need to remove them completely. They could be moved to a special "Legends" or "Archives" or "Play At Your Own Risk, You've Been Warned!" section.

Well these are missions a lot of us broke our teeth on many years ago and we still played despite that, so I'm not really sure I buy that. Still I'd take that compromise of moving them out of the main line of missions like the original patrol missions. As far as I'm aware they are all still there, but you're not directed to them any more, you just find them. And I still miss the exploration clusters because there was quick, simple action in them, not to mention the interesting planetary environments.

Of course the existing missions can be buggy and messy as it is already. I played through the Disco origin recently and holy Iconians was that buggy. I don't know how long the bugs were there or whether they have been fixed since, but we are talking inexplicably being unable to use energy weapons in space, only torpedoes. That's going to scare off more people than some dull kill 5/scan 5 missions. And I know the Azura mission is still buggy where science captains can't revive the crew.

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foxrockssocks

westmetals wrote: »

foxrockssocks wrote: »

davefenestrator wrote: »

foxrockssocks wrote: »

I really don't understand removing content you want to revamp when you have yet to revamp it. Just wait until you revamp it. It is nonsense to remove it prior.

I understand why they do it: New players. Poorly-designed episodes can drive them away.

However, there's no need to remove them completely. They could be moved to a special "Legends" or "Archives" or "Play At Your Own Risk, You've Been Warned!" section.

Well these are missions a lot of us broke our teeth on many years ago and we still played despite that, so I'm not really sure I buy that. Still I'd take that compromise of moving them out of the main line of missions like the original patrol missions. As far as I'm aware they are all still there, but you're not directed to them any more, you just find them. And I still miss the exploration clusters because there was quick, simple action in them, not to mention the interesting planetary environments.

Of course the existing missions can be buggy and messy as it is already. I played through the Disco origin recently and holy Iconians was that buggy. I don't know how long the bugs were there or whether they have been fixed since, but we are talking inexplicably being unable to use energy weapons in space, only torpedoes. That's going to scare off more people than some dull kill 5/scan 5 missions. And I know the Azura mission is still buggy where science captains can't revive the crew.

Some of the removed missions are in the "Available" tab. Not all of them.

Yes, but those are chiefly the old featured episode chains, and Nimbus.

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foxrockssocks

somtaawkhar wrote: »

foxrockssocks wrote: »

Well these are missions a lot of us broke our teeth on many years ago and we still played despite that, so I'm not really sure I buy that.

That's not really an argument. Just because you were willing to TRIBBLE through a giant steaming pile doesn't mean other people will, or should.

foxrockssocks wrote: »

And I know the Azura mission is still buggy where science captains can't revive the crew.

A bugged optional isn't the same as the entire mission design from the ground up being fundamentally bad like the old Klingon War missions were.

Of course it isn't an argument. I was rejecting the premise with the simple fact that we played this missions and liked them when the game came out, enough to stick around for 10+ years in some cases. And yes, we still want to play them.

And no bugs aren't the same as poor design, they are unquestionably worse. Bugs stop you from completing content or require sometimes ridiculous workarounds. Temporal Reckoning was bugged for a long time where the ISS Enterprise would zoom around the map at speeds impossible to catch up to, but you had to beat it into submission to complete the mission. And if you're worried about new players, what are they supposed to think of the game when one of the earliest missions they do, they can't even complete the side objectives?

Bad design just means it could use improvement. Where is the bad design team when you need them for all the unskippable cutscenes in so many missions? Why aren't those removed for fixing? How about Kobali prime's awful design with the insane aggro distance of Vaudwaar and their ability to respawn before you can possibly complete the objectives for some of those areas? How about the Azure Nebula Rescue's awful design issues?

There's a lot of stuff with awful design in this game. I'd love to see it improved! But I don't want it removed until that point that the improved version is better. The only time it ever makes sense to remove something is when its so buggy it isn't playable.

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foppotee

I think for most of the content that Cryptic stated they removed to "revamp" the longer it stays gone the more likely it will remain gone.

In many business practices something doesn't get removed until its replacement is actually, you know, ready to replace it ... if that is the true intention after all to skip having a void.

Playable content > than pretty words, hype, & promises

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captainhunter1

spork87 wrote: »

Curious if anyone has heard any status update on these classics, that where promised to return but are still missing.

State of Q
City on the Edge of Never
Past Imperfect

Are these ever returning, did the Devs just decide meh and move on?

They'll be back when the Foundry, Exploration, and the Calendar returns.

foxrockssocks

somtaawkhar wrote: »

foxrockssocks wrote: »

Of course it isn't an argument. I was rejecting the premise with the simple fact that we played this missions and liked them when the game came out, enough to stick around for 10+ years in some cases. And yes, we still want to play them.

That you chose to do so doesn't mean other people will, or should have to. That isn't a rejection of the premise, that's just trying to imply everyone should think the same way you do, which they shouldn't. People still to be hip and pick up retro block cellphones, doesn't mean you can force everyone to have to use them.

foxrockssocks wrote: »

And no bugs aren't the same as poor design, they are unquestionably worse. Bugs stop you from completing content or require sometimes ridiculous workarounds. Temporal Reckoning was bugged for a long time where the ISS Enterprise would zoom around the map at speeds impossible to catch up to, but you had to beat it into submission to complete the mission. And if you're worried about new players, what are they supposed to think of the game when one of the earliest missions they do, they can't even complete the side objectives?

Bugs don't make the mission fundamentally bad however. I would much rather play Temporal Reckoning, and be able to enjoy the 95% of the mission that wasn't bugged, and was well designed, then play something like the old Guardian of Forever missions where I can complete it, but be miserable the whole time through.

foxrockssocks wrote: »

Bad design just means it could use improvement. Where is the bad design team when you need them for all the unskippable cutscenes in so many missions? Why aren't those removed for fixing? How about Kobali prime's awful design with the insane aggro distance of Vaudwaar and their ability to respawn before you can possibly complete the objectives for some of those areas? How about the Azure Nebula Rescue's awful design issues?

-Unskippable cutscenes exist because the game is moving the player/other NPCs into position, and making changes to the game world, behind the scenes so that they can be in the right places for when said cutscene ends. This is something that games have had to deal with for decades, and most people have no problem with them because they understand why they exist. The only way to get rid of them would be to remove any of the complex situations that require sudden character/world changes, which would mean dumbing the same down just because a handful of people can't stand something everyone else understands the reason behind, and has long since gotten over. The only other option would be to lock players in place and have them witness all the behind the scenes teleporting/level changing that goes on during said kinds of cutscenes, and letting people see that would be worse then unskippable cutscenes.

-I go on Kobali Prime all the time for ground damage endeavors and have never had a problem with Vaadwaur agro range. Its the exact same as any other NPC group in the game. I also have the exact opposite problem of the map being empty very often due to how slowly Vaadwaur respawn. I very often can complete objectives with pretty much zero resistance.

-Azure Nebula's biggest problem stems from people not working together to free ships faster, and jumping the gun between bonus objectives instead of waiting for the next one to start before freeing another ship. Saying that's bad design is like saying Battle of Procyon V is poorly designed because enemies can interrupt your closing of the portals, when the whole point of the TFO is to use teamwork to draw out the enemies, to give team mates time to close the portals. The whole point is that, if you were doing it right, you shouldn't be getting interrupted in the first place. People being bad a teamwork =/= bad design, thats people just being bad at teamwork.

foxrockssocks wrote: »

There's a lot of stuff with awful design in this game. I'd love to see it improved! But I don't want it removed until that point that the improved version is better. The only time it ever makes sense to remove something is when its so buggy it isn't playable.

And all I can say is that I am glad game devs don't have this horrible mindset. Your argument is literally "I would rather have a cake made of TRIBBLE then no cake at all". Its always better to not have content, even if you have nothing to replace it right then, then it is to have bad content.

Utterly nonsensical. No one is forcing anyone to play bad missions they don't want to play. The existence of the GoF mission doesn't compel you to play it if you think its bad.

You're completely wrong on unskippable cutscenes as there are many where literally nothing moves, and skippable ones where things do move. You apparently have your own special version of Kobali prime that is different from everyone else. And as for Azure nebula rescue, it has nothing at all to do with working together or not, as it is entirely possible to get nothing but T'liss after T'liss, because it is badly designed. I also said nothing about Procyon V so why create a strawman?

Finally, suggesting we should have nothing and like it is positively absurd, in no small part because you wildly overstate how bad the missions were, and ignore the fact that people still liked them. Again, it doesn't matter if you don't like it, you aren't forced to play it.

kurtron

I sure miss them!

lordmerc22

I think the old Dominion arc was removed too after VA got screwed with both old and new vorta voices being heard, same for cardassian representative etc

rattler2

lordmerc22 wrote: »

I think the old Dominion arc was removed too after VA got screwed with both old and new vorta voices being heard, same for cardassian representative etc

If you're talking about the old FE series where we meet Loriss for the first time... it wasn't removed. Just moved to the "Available" tab and is not part of the main story anymore. Same with the rest of the FE series like the Breen and Dividian arcs.

captainwells

I would very much like to see Cryptic merge these two missions into an updated format. Leaving them out permanently in my estimation is not ideal!

protoneous

somtaawkhar wrote: »

Bugs don't make the mission fundamentally bad however. I would much rather play Temporal Reckoning, and be able to enjoy the 95% of the mission that wasn't bugged, and was well designed, then play something like the old Guardian of Forever missions where I can complete it, but be miserable the whole time through.

Bugs can interfere with the completion of a mission. This can be especially frustrating for newer players. It can make for a miserable experience.

Spock's voice and the Guardian of Forever were two very unique Star Trek experiences that STO used to provide and were important and enjoyable to me at least.

I guess tastes will vary.

rattler2

Odds are they still have that audio. When they revamped the Fed Tutorial they didn't toss out the VO work. When the missions return in a remastered format, they will most likely have the VO work. Although I wouldn't be surprised if B'Vat's voice is changed to the more current Klingon Sean Connery voice to match the VO work from Temporal Ambassador.

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