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Agony field generator - nullifying ground gameplay

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  • questeriusquesterius Member Posts: 7,655 Arc User
    edited June 2020
    casualsto wrote: »
    The fix is not a nerf. The fix is to make that generator from an Universal to an Engineering Kit Module. No nerf, empowers one of the less played classes these days and doesn't push for the ambush bonus being recalculated or reworked.

    Its real issue is the possibility to interact with Ambush and other cat2 stacks from the Tac skills.
    So the shortest way to do right by the engineers and not break the tactical Ambush skill ... Is stated above. This comes as a suggestion and a solution to the problem being discussed here. Most people call this a cry for nerf. It is absolutely not. It's just a limitation for a certain unwanted mix of bonuses which simply turns the based feature there into a one-way thing.

    It is important to read it first, then have an opinion on it. This way we can have proper arguments on different opinions.

    What about all the non-engineers who purchased the module and equipped it? Are they suddenly unable to use their module?
    Love it or hate it, but universal kit modules are not suddenly going to be transformed into carreer based kit modules.

    I could see various careers apply an effect to an universal kit module, but the chance of that being implemented on older already in circulation modules is unlikely.

    E.g. i could also see damage output for engineers 20% higher for an agony field generator.
    This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 12,456 Arc User
    edited June 2020
    Anytime you ask Cryptic to make changes to decrease anything, it never goes well and usually ends up in a fairly worthless item.

    Be very careful what you wish for with them.
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
    Judge Dan Haywood
    'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
    l don't know.
    l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
    That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
    Lt. Philip J. Minns
  • thunderfoot#5163 thunderfoot Member Posts: 4,327 Arc User
    edited June 2020
    ...if you don't like it, you can feel free to cram it. Sideways.

    Color me disappointed. Surely, a highly proficient, slightly respected forum warrior such as yourself ought to be able to come up with a better way to put a troll such as myself back into my proper place. Without having to rely on 'canned' insults. Sadly, the aforementioned "insult" displays an amazing lack of familiarity with human anatomy on your part.

    But I digress.

    casualsto's opinion is just that. An opinion. He thinks the item in question is over powered when used in conjunction with Abilities and benefits available to a TAC character. He suggested this item should be modified to reduce its power in his post. He then posted his reasons for his suggestion. I am unsure if I agree with casualsto's viewpoint. However, he is entitled to it.

    I purchased the item in question for one of my TAC characters to see if I could duplicate his results. As I suspected, timing has as much to do with the results as gear. Probably more. I cannot exactly match what he did or described but I can come close enough so I understand why he posted what he did.

    I seriously doubt anyone at Cryptic will ever even look at casualsto's suggestion. There are many many items inside this game which are equally overpowered and have been this way for years. There are techniques and styles of gameplay which allow players to do ridiculous amounts of damage and they've never been pointed out as "OP". There are fleets and groups of players in STO whose sole raison d'etre is based upon taking advantage of these overpowered items and techniques. Cryptic has done nothing at all to "nerf" these. So it is a safe bet nothing will happen here, either.
    Nope. It ain't Discovery. Ain't Picard, either. It's you.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    questerius wrote: »
    casualsto wrote: »
    The fix is not a nerf. The fix is to make that generator from an Universal to an Engineering Kit Module. No nerf, empowers one of the less played classes these days and doesn't push for the ambush bonus being recalculated or reworked.

    Its real issue is the possibility to interact with Ambush and other cat2 stacks from the Tac skills.
    So the shortest way to do right by the engineers and not break the tactical Ambush skill ... Is stated above. This comes as a suggestion and a solution to the problem being discussed here. Most people call this a cry for nerf. It is absolutely not. It's just a limitation for a certain unwanted mix of bonuses which simply turns the based feature there into a one-way thing.

    It is important to read it first, then have an opinion on it. This way we can have proper arguments on different opinions.

    What about all the non-engineers who purchased the module and equipped it? Are they suddenly unable to use their module?
    Love it or hate it, but universal kit modules are not suddenly going to be transformed into carreer based kit modules.

    I could see various careers apply an effect to an universal kit module, but the chance of that being implemented on older already in circulation modules is unlikely.

    E.g. i could also see damage output for engineers 20% higher for an agony field generator.
    Yeah I could see them restricting it to engineer if they make a Boff version, but changing the existing one? nope.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,210 Arc User
    edited June 2020
    Lol Sea I’m telling you some peeps just can’t seem to get over the leagues banner. You can do whatever you want but will always be at the disadvantage. :D

    How pathetic, yet always so much fun to watch.

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    Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
    felisean wrote: »
    teamwork to reach a goal is awesome and highly appreciated
    Bring it on
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    wishful thinking is not really a reliable source
  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,210 Arc User
    edited June 2020
    casualsto wrote: »
    The fix is not a nerf. The fix is to make that generator from an Universal to an Engineering Kit Module. No nerf, empowers one of the less played classes these days and doesn't push for the ambush bonus being recalculated or reworked.

    Its real issue is the possibility to interact with Ambush and other cat2 stacks from the Tac skills.
    So the shortest way to do right by the engineers and not break the tactical Ambush skill ... Is stated above. This comes as a suggestion and a solution to the problem being discussed here. Most people call this a cry for nerf. It is absolutely not. It's just a limitation for a certain unwanted mix of bonuses which simply turns the based feature there into a one-way thing.

    It is important to read it first, then have an opinion on it. This way we can have proper arguments on different opinions.

    Your idea is not bad Casual though any rule changes TRIBBLE off those who played by the rules and are therefor uncool. My problem is just that I have lost all confidence that some things will ever change for the better in STO so why bother.

    Other games are quite different. Balanced items, multiple viable options and stuff; but not here! Everything I have seen, all the changes that were made and what came afterwards have me believe in only one thing:

    Cryptic knows what’s going on and they are perfectly fine with it. They do not care if you are not.

    It will never change no matter with what good ideas you, I or anybody else might come up with. :|
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    Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
    felisean wrote: »
    teamwork to reach a goal is awesome and highly appreciated
    Bring it on
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    wishful thinking is not really a reliable source
  • thunderfoot#5163 thunderfoot Member Posts: 4,327 Arc User
    Lol Sea I’m telling you some peeps just can’t seem to get over the leagues banner. You can do whatever you want but will always be at the disadvantage. :D

    How pathetic, yet always so much fun to watch.

    So Sea needs backup now? Not a big enough boy to handle his own messes all by himself? Okay.

    It is indeed fun to watch someone publicly measure their worth on the InterWebs by how well they play a video game.
    I can only wish my horizons are this small someday.

    I will always be an advocate for people playing this game the way they want to.. You do you and as long as you're having fun playing STO, I'm happy for you. All I did was use you as part of an example of things as they are. Reading too much into it, are we?

    Why so defensive?



    Nope. It ain't Discovery. Ain't Picard, either. It's you.
  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,210 Arc User
    edited June 2020
    Lol Sea I’m telling you some peeps just can’t seem to get over the leagues banner. You can do whatever you want but will always be at the disadvantage. :D

    How pathetic, yet always so much fun to watch.

    So Sea needs backup now? Not a big enough boy to handle his own messes all by himself? Okay.

    It is indeed fun to watch someone publicly measure their worth on the InterWebs by how well they play a video game.
    I can only wish my horizons are this small someday.

    I will always be an advocate for people playing this game the way they want to.. You do you and as long as you're having fun playing STO, I'm happy for you. All I did was use you as part of an example of things as they are. Reading too much into it, are we?

    Why so defensive?



    Judging from your comments your troubles with performance players seem to run deep. I’m sorry for that but don’t feel like wanting to change it. Main reason is that STO is not that high on my priority list for the time being and I’m sure you can imagine in what place this puts you in.

    Of course I won’t deny myself any good laughs you can provide here for me as they are for free. I even thank you for them in the hopes for more. :)
    animated.gif
    Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
    felisean wrote: »
    teamwork to reach a goal is awesome and highly appreciated
    Bring it on
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    wishful thinking is not really a reliable source
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,586 Arc User
    edited June 2020
    Lol Sea I’m telling you some peeps just can’t seem to get over the leagues banner. You can do whatever you want but will always be at the disadvantage. :D

    As I have come to expect, but I don't care. It's their problem.. not ours. :wink:
    So Sea needs backup now? Not a big enough boy to handle his own messes all by himself? Okay.

    As always, he speaks for himself, as do I. I already dismissed you as the troll you are a long time ago. I responded to you with the effort you were worth.. none.

    Not sure why you have such a desire to pick a fight with me, I guess I should feel honored? Sure.. I'll go with that. If it will somehow make you feel justified to have the last word in this silly exchange then feel free to take it now, I honestly don't care.
    animated.gif
    Discovery is good, it's you that sucks.
  • redvengeredvenge Member Posts: 1,425 Arc User
    Tactical Module: Ambush has a 60 second cooldown. The long cooldown is why I haven't used it in years, because many lockbox modules have much, much shorter cooldowns. Universal Kit Module: Agony Field Generator appears to have a similar cooldown.

    Why would I replace any number of modules with much, MUCH shorter cooldowns for this? I can get Exothermic Induction to less than 10 seconds. With other space magic AoEs on similar cooldowns, I can continuously spam space magic without ever firing a shot.

    The overall DPS seems much lower with this particular nuke and you have to use 3 or 4 modules to set it up. Not sure the tradeoff is worth it when dealing with a protracted fight.
  • casualstocasualsto Member Posts: 672 Arc User
    redvenge wrote: »
    Tactical Module: Ambush has a 60 second cooldown. The long cooldown is why I haven't used it in years, because many lockbox modules have much, much shorter cooldowns. Universal Kit Module: Agony Field Generator appears to have a similar cooldown.

    Why would I replace any number of modules with much, MUCH shorter cooldowns for this? I can get Exothermic Induction to less than 10 seconds. With other space magic AoEs on similar cooldowns, I can continuously spam space magic without ever firing a shot.

    The overall DPS seems much lower with this particular nuke and you have to use 3 or 4 modules to set it up. Not sure the tradeoff is worth it when dealing with a protracted fight.

    You only need to place it once during Ambush. During the life of the Agony Turret, the damage generated by the turret will be like you'd trigger Ambush on each shot.

    Also by using the Mudd's Temporal Device, you can decrease those cooldowns quite easily and keep placing Ambush Agony Field Turrets.
  • protoneousprotoneous Member Posts: 2,093 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    So all this is because a Tac with Ambush can own the battlefield.

    Wonder how this will play into the upcoming Sompek...

    I don't think it will play much of a role as the 7 round event version of Sompek is over before before presenting much of a challenge.

    If anything I think this thread has done more to promote the sale and use of this kit module than anything else. All for exactly 10m EC from the exchange complete with instructions to optimize it's use :smile:
    Once you get a handle of that thing, the ground combat becomes o-b-s-o-l-e-t-e.
    if you can afford (10m per piece last time I checked), please experiment this module with your tac with : Ambush, Battle Strategies, Motivation and Paradox Bomb.
    For 10m from the exchange, you can simply solo any cluster of ground enemies in the game
  • casualstocasualsto Member Posts: 672 Arc User
    protoneous wrote: »
    rattler2 wrote: »
    So all this is because a Tac with Ambush can own the battlefield.

    Wonder how this will play into the upcoming Sompek...

    I don't think it will play much of a role as the 7 round event version of Sompek is over before before presenting much of a challenge.

    If anything I think this thread has done more to promote the sale and use of this kit module than anything else. All for exactly 10m EC from the exchange complete with instructions to optimize it's use :smile:
    Once you get a handle of that thing, the ground combat becomes o-b-s-o-l-e-t-e.
    if you can afford (10m per piece last time I checked), please experiment this module with your tac with : Ambush, Battle Strategies, Motivation and Paradox Bomb.
    For 10m from the exchange, you can simply solo any cluster of ground enemies in the game

    Why would I promote something that I find and report as broken?

    It is overpriced and I wouldn't buy it, even if it would break the map in half, but if I'd have a few, I'd willingly give them away for testing purposes, just to prove my point.
  • protoneousprotoneous Member Posts: 2,093 Arc User
    casualsto wrote: »
    protoneous wrote: »
    rattler2 wrote: »
    So all this is because a Tac with Ambush can own the battlefield.

    Wonder how this will play into the upcoming Sompek...

    I don't think it will play much of a role as the 7 round event version of Sompek is over before before presenting much of a challenge.

    If anything I think this thread has done more to promote the sale and use of this kit module than anything else. All for exactly 10m EC from the exchange complete with instructions to optimize it's use :smile:
    Once you get a handle of that thing, the ground combat becomes o-b-s-o-l-e-t-e.
    if you can afford (10m per piece last time I checked), please experiment this module with your tac with : Ambush, Battle Strategies, Motivation and Paradox Bomb.
    For 10m from the exchange, you can simply solo any cluster of ground enemies in the game

    Why would I promote something that I find and report as broken?

    It is overpriced and I wouldn't buy it, even if it would break the map in half, but if I'd have a few, I'd willingly give them away for testing purposes, just to prove my point.

    Sometimes threads can have the opposite effect as compared to original intent. This may be one of those threads especially when you see people posting I tried it, buffed and used it as directed, and it's a keeper.

    Having a Sompek event on the horizon and now active may have kept their price up as well.

    I take your intent as you've stated. It may also have some players revisiting or trying out the kit module as well though which is why I mentioned the thread may very well have promoted it's sale and use.

    It certainly got me taking a few more out of my account bank and it's a keeper now on several additional characters. Thank you even though this wasn't your intent.
  • stolokstolok Member Posts: 92 Arc User
    Something no one else seems to have mentioned yet is the perks from the endeavor system. The increased damage from those could also play into making the Agony Field Generator and other some other things too OP. The devs have a very complex set of inter-related effects to balance.

    The fix in any case is not to deprive people who already bought and use the kit module of their equipment. It's much fairer to just reduce the bonus effects. It certainly would make sense for the effects of ambush to not apply to placed generators, but only the player's own weapon or melee damage. Similarly, if the endeavor damage perks apply to placed generators (do they? I dunno, but my wpn dmg bonus on my kit frame boosts generators, so it seems likely), they should not and that needs to be fixed, although kit perf is supposed to directly enhance kit modules. So no way around that one.
  • casualstocasualsto Member Posts: 672 Arc User
    stolok wrote: »
    Something no one else seems to have mentioned yet is the perks from the endeavor system. The increased damage from those could also play into making the Agony Field Generator and other some other things too OP. The devs have a very complex set of inter-related effects to balance.

    The fix in any case is not to deprive people who already bought and use the kit module of their equipment. It's much fairer to just reduce the bonus effects. It certainly would make sense for the effects of ambush to not apply to placed generators, but only the player's own weapon or melee damage. Similarly, if the endeavor damage perks apply to placed generators (do they? I dunno, but my wpn dmg bonus on my kit frame boosts generators, so it seems likely), they should not and that needs to be fixed, although kit perf is supposed to directly enhance kit modules. So no way around that one.

    Your idea makes sense.
  • lhoygowlhoygow Member Posts: 308 Arc User
    edited July 2020
    Is there a counter to the AFG? Just encountered an opposing player(s) using this module in Binary Circuit. I believe there were 2 players on the other team that were placing generators with constant coverage (or one who seemed to have a near zero cooldown). The reach of these are far enough to encompass most of the interact points so constant death happening. There doesn't seem to be anything that can be done to stop it, you can't target the generators or the players placing them from your side of the map. I tried the "Attack Other Players" interact but never got transported over, not that it would matter since the dome would kill you just as fast on the other side. For this queue, this module might need to be disabled like they have some others that gave the players an advantage.

    If there isn't a counter then I'm just going to sit out of range and wait for the other team to win, constant respawning isn't my idea of fun.
    Post edited by lhoygow on
  • echattyechatty Member Posts: 5,654 Arc User
    @darkbladejk

    Necro.

    Threads where the last post is more than a month old are not allowed to be resurrected. Start a new thread if you need information.
    Now a LTS and loving it.

    Just because you spend money on this game, it does not entitle you to be a jerk if things don't go your way.

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  • casualstocasualsto Member Posts: 672 Arc User
    lhoygow wrote: »
    Is there a counter to the AFG? Just encountered an opposing player(s) using this module in Binary Circuit. I believe there were 2 players on the other team that were placing generators with constant coverage (or one who seemed to have a near zero cooldown). The reach of these are far enough to encompass most of the interact points so constant death happening. There doesn't seem to be anything that can be done to stop it, you can't target the generators or the players placing them from your side of the map. I tried the "Attack Other Players" interact but never got transported over, not that it would matter since the dome would kill you just as fast on the other side. For this queue, this module might need to be disabled like they have some others that gave the players an advantage.

    If there isn't a counter then I'm just going to sit out of range and just wait for the other team to win, constant respawning isn't my idea of fun.

    You could shoot down the turret. It's a destructible asset.

    Going inside its globe is a really bad idea.
  • darkbladejkdarkbladejk Member Posts: 3,162 Community Moderator
    (white lantern blast) back to the netherworld ye zombieness
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