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✯✯✯ STAR TREK PICARD ✯✯✯ (reactions and discussion WITH SPOILERS)

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  • sennahcheribsennahcherib Member Posts: 2,655 Arc User
    well, after thinking a lot of this tv show, and after watching some others; I have to change my judgment.

    First of all, Star Trek Picard is not a bad tv show, but it is not going to stay a long time in my memory. it is not even in my top 10.
    The characters are a little bit empty. Excepted 2 of them, they lack of charisma, and are not interesting at all. The CG work is good, but not spectacular.
    The big disappointment for me comes from the story itself which seems to have been rushed to finish the season. At least, 2 seasons would have been necessary to develop everything (Maddox's life, Soji's life and why she left the planet etc). There is also the fact that Soji want to be only a basic human, instead of accept her true nature and complete the call of the Super synths. Oh's behavior is strange, she has a "sacred" mission, and finally she accepts to do nothing; it is really weird.

    The overall tone of the show is childish, and lack definitely depth.

    Star trek Picard is an average tv show, nothing more, nothing less. Something is missing to make this tv show an excellent one. Maybe the screenwriters should be replaced or it is even all the star trek franchise which needs a total rethinking. well! I don't know.

    As much Westworld is in my top ten, and will remain so, but I have already forgotten Star Trek Picard. I'm not even waiting for the next season.

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  • khan5000khan5000 Member Posts: 2,932 Arc User
    starkaos wrote: »
    If there is plot holes in Picard, it would be how easy it was for the Federation to implement the Synth Ban due to how loyal Data was and how easily Picard lost his Admiral rank due to Picard saving the Federation a few times. Commodore Oh wouldn't have enough power to kick out Picard and force a Synth Ban on the Federation.

    This is the same organization that banned genetic engineering based on the actions of a few several centuries ago. When Bashir was instrumental in helping to win the Dominion War that ban wasn’t recalled.
    Picard didn’t lose his commission. He resigned. Leaving/rejoining Star Fleet seems to be as easy as just saying “ I’m out” or “I’m back”.
    Commodore Oh didn’t kick Picard out.
    Your pain runs deep.
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  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,460 Arc User
    khan5000 wrote: »
    starkaos wrote: »
    If there is plot holes in Picard, it would be how easy it was for the Federation to implement the Synth Ban due to how loyal Data was and how easily Picard lost his Admiral rank due to Picard saving the Federation a few times. Commodore Oh wouldn't have enough power to kick out Picard and force a Synth Ban on the Federation.

    This is the same organization that banned genetic engineering based on the actions of a few several centuries ago. When Bashir was instrumental in helping to win the Dominion War that ban wasn’t recalled.
    Picard didn’t lose his commission. He resigned. Leaving/rejoining Star Fleet seems to be as easy as just saying “ I’m out” or “I’m back”.
    Commodore Oh didn’t kick Picard out.

    There is a slight difference between the genetic engineering ban and the synth ban. The genetic engineering ban was the result of a bunch of genetically engineered humans trying to take over Earth and a few hundred years in the future had a good genetically engineered human. Genetic engineering was still allowed in the Federation to fix genetic problems like Down Syndrome, Cystic Fibrosis, and Sickle Cell Anemia. The synth ban had a good synthetic and a couple of decades later had a rebellion with a bunch of mediocre synths that didn't have the mental capacity to rebel without external help.
  • truewarpertruewarper Member Posts: 790 Arc User
    well, after thinking a lot of this tv show, and after watching some others; I have to change my judgment.

    First of all, Star Trek Picard is not a bad tv show, but it is not going to stay a long time in my memory. it is not even in my top 10.
    The characters are a little bit empty. Excepted 2 of them, they lack of charisma, and are not interesting at all. The CG work is good, but not spectacular.
    The big disappointment for me comes from the story itself which seems to have been rushed to finish the season. At least, 2 seasons would have been necessary to develop everything (Maddox's life, Soji's life and why she left the planet etc). There is also the fact that Soji want to be only a basic human, instead of accept her true nature and complete the call of the Super synths. Oh's behavior is strange, she has a "sacred" mission, and finally she accepts to do nothing; it is really weird.

    The overall tone of the show is childish, and lack definitely depth.

    Star trek Picard is an average tv show, nothing more, nothing less. Something is missing to make this tv show an excellent one. Maybe the screenwriters should be replaced or it is even all the star trek franchise which needs a total rethinking. well! I don't know.

    As much Westworld is in my top ten, and will remain so, but I have already forgotten Star Trek Picard. I'm not even waiting for the next season.

    That is the part that bothered me, why did they do that...and it was like showing their lack of experience in doing a story, or better yet, they were doing it just to get the money?

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  • khan5000khan5000 Member Posts: 2,932 Arc User
    starkaos wrote: »
    khan5000 wrote: »
    starkaos wrote: »
    If there is plot holes in Picard, it would be how easy it was for the Federation to implement the Synth Ban due to how loyal Data was and how easily Picard lost his Admiral rank due to Picard saving the Federation a few times. Commodore Oh wouldn't have enough power to kick out Picard and force a Synth Ban on the Federation.

    This is the same organization that banned genetic engineering based on the actions of a few several centuries ago. When Bashir was instrumental in helping to win the Dominion War that ban wasn’t recalled.
    Picard didn’t lose his commission. He resigned. Leaving/rejoining Star Fleet seems to be as easy as just saying “ I’m out” or “I’m back”.
    Commodore Oh didn’t kick Picard out.

    There is a slight difference between the genetic engineering ban and the synth ban. The genetic engineering ban was the result of a bunch of genetically engineered humans trying to take over Earth and a few hundred years in the future had a good genetically engineered human. Genetic engineering was still allowed in the Federation to fix genetic problems like Down Syndrome, Cystic Fibrosis, and Sickle Cell Anemia. The synth ban had a good synthetic and a couple of decades later had a rebellion with a bunch of mediocre synths that didn't have the mental capacity to rebel without external help.

    I don’t think they’re allowed to fix genetic defects. Wasn’t that the whole issue with Bashir? His parents were trying to fix a defect. His dad went to prison over that.
    All the Federation knew at that point was...the synthetics rebelled and destroyed UP. They didn’t know they got TRIBBLE. For all they know the synths could have evolved into sentience.
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  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 10,632 Arc User
    I had no idea that was Isa Briones singing "Blue Skies" on Picard. What an absolutely beautiful voice she has! Definitely the best thing of an otherwise piece of TRIBBLE show.



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  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 35,775 Arc User
    no, fixing genetic defects IS legal in federation space...if they're defects capable of causing crippling or life-threatening issues down the line - not only did bashir's specific issue NOT fall within those parameters, his father didn't stop there once it was fixed; he went full augment, and that's why he got incarcerated once bashir's genetic enhancements became public knowledge​​
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  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,890 Arc User
    edited March 2020
    valoreah wrote: »
    I had no idea that was Isa Briones singing "Blue Skies" on Picard. What an absolutely beautiful voice she has! Definitely the best thing of an otherwise piece of TRIBBLE show.


    Now I realize that Data was basically dying to the sound of his daughter singing... :'(

    Sad is like happy, but for deep people...

    Mustrum "Technically, it might just us viewers hearing the song, but still" Ridcully
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  • nrobbiecnrobbiec Member Posts: 877 Arc User
    > @valoreah said:
    > I had no idea that was Isa Briones singing "Blue Skies" on Picard. What an absolutely beautiful voice she has! Definitely the best thing of an otherwise piece of TRIBBLE show.

    Our opinions on the show may be polar opposites but we can certainly agree she does have a wonderful singing voice.
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 9,243 Arc User
    khan5000 wrote: »
    Leaving/rejoining Star Fleet seems to be as easy as just saying “ I’m out” or “I’m back”.
    That's pretty much how Worf handled it in TNG, yeah. And Picard didn't even blink at his coming back to his old role, rank, and assignment to the Enterprise after the Klingon Civil War ended.
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  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,460 Arc User
    no, fixing genetic defects IS legal in federation space...if they're defects capable of causing crippling or life-threatening issues down the line - not only did bashir's specific issue NOT fall within those parameters, his father didn't stop there once it was fixed; he went full augment, and that's why he got incarcerated once bashir's genetic enhancements became public knowledge​​

    At least Bashir's father found a decent genetic engineer instead of the other Augments we saw in DS9. Genetic Engineering would be involved for most of the hybrids on Star Trek. Phlox is credited for creating a gene therapy for Human/Vulcan hybrids.
  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 2,450 Arc User
    edited March 2020
    There is a big difference between a well thought out and consistent "intelligent show" that people have been asking for and the sloppy, shallow, plot hole ridden show that CBS delivered. Hopefully they step back next season and actually bother to craft the stories instead of just slinging them off the top of their heads the way this season seems to do. It has nothing to do with outright stating things as such, it just requires conveying the right impressions, something they apparently fell short of.
    Name said plot holes that make the show "ridden" with them. Because I can't think of any, and most of the supposed plot holes I've seen mentioned thus far, aren't, since they were explained. Such as
    -Why did Maddox leave synth world and send Dahj and Soji to Earth/The Artifact?
    -Who did the attacks on Mars?
    -What do you mean Seven of Nine is TRIBBLE?
    starkaos wrote: »
    Not the first time a deleted scene would have explained a certain plot hole.
    I really hate how people misuse the term plothole.

    A plothole, by definition, is something that goes against the consistency, or established logic, of a narrative. Seeing Narek get obliterated into ash by a phaser rifle set to kill, only to have him come back the next episode perfectly fine, and with no mention of how he does so, is a plot hole.

    Them not explaining where Narek went after we last saw him isn't a plot hole, its just an unexplained event.

    Pretty much nothing in that video you posted is a plot hole, regardless of if the deleted scenes happened to exist or not.

    Actually that definition is not correct, there are more than just narrative plot holes. In fact, there are generally considered to be five: narrative, McGuffin, character, logic, and deus ex machina. From what I have read PIC seems to hit all five at some point or another (no way to be certain of course working with second-hand sources). And plot holes do not have to be big active glaring things like somtaawkhar's hypothetical Narek example to qualify as a plot hole, they can actually be rather subtle and they do not have to even be internal inconsistencies, especially in a world shared by multiple series and movies.

    To be fair, almost all movies and series do to some extent, but some handle it better than others and what I have heard of PIC makes me think they did not handle them well.

    As for specific examples, the Wired article qultuq already linked to brings up a lot of those, and there are even more. For convenience here is the link again:

    https://wired.co.uk/article/star-trek-picard-finale-review

    One that they did not address in that article (possibly because it seems to be mainly in the novelization more than the filmed part) was the supernova, which would fall into the logic plothole type, and it would not be a plothole as such if they were not using the starmap they did (just incredibly poor writing). The problem is that in order for the supernova to do the damage described to the RSE, the RSE would have had to be set up as a sphere with Romulus in the center and everything radiating out in shells like the model of an atom, yet the map they use shows the RSE as a long ellipsoid with Romulus at one end, pretty much jammed up against the Federation.

    There is simply no way the supernova could do significant damage to anything but the capital system itself and maybe one or two major colony worlds without also taking out significant Federation worlds as well (in fact Romulus is closer to Earth than it is to the center of RSE territory along the long axis). And the Romulans would need to start out with more than that to be considered one of the major powers of the quadrant.

    Also, character backstory that is not properly seeded before the reveal is a form of plot hole, and there have been plenty of people talking about how PIC does that with several characters, along with bungling Chekov's Gun moments that lead to lost or glossed over threads, poorly handled deus ex machina solutions and other things that fall into the five types.
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 8,815 Arc User
    edited March 2020
    In fact, there are generally considered to be five: narrative, McGuffin, character, logic, and deus ex machina.
    All of which are covered in the definition I originally provided. So you said I want wrong, only to write out a longer version of what I had just said.
    There is simply no way the supernova could do significant damage to anything but the capital system itself and maybe one or two major colony worlds
    Star Trek has already long established that the loss of the homeworld = the destruction of said civilization
    -The Iconians
    -The T'Kon
    -The Makers(of the Mudd Androids)
    To name a few. And both the T'Kon and the "Makers" both suffered the EXACT same situation as the Romulans, where the star of the home system went nova, and both utterly collapsed despite having far LARGER empires then the Romulans.
    Also, character backstory that is not properly seeded before the reveal is a form of plot hole, and there have been plenty of people talking about how PIC does that with several characters, along with bungling Chekov's Gun moments that lead to lost or glossed over threads, poorly handled deus ex machina solutions and other things that fall into the five types.
    Chekov's Gun is a literary technique, one that is not needed to be followed, and generally isn't by most writing unless its a very bare bones story. Not everything mentioned has to lead to something, there is a thing called world building, where characters and dialog give out more information beyond the most minimal needed, in order to address things that would logically be going on, even if they aren't important to the story at hand.

    And again
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  • khan5000khan5000 Member Posts: 2,932 Arc User
    According to Chabon the supernova threatened Romulus and about 15 Romulan colonies of equal population
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  • khan5000khan5000 Member Posts: 2,932 Arc User
    > @phoenixc#0738 said:
    > (Quote)
    > (Quote)
    >
    > Actually that definition is not correct, there are more than just narrative plot holes. In fact, there are generally considered to be five: narrative, McGuffin, character, logic, and deus ex machina. From what I have read PIC seems to hit all five at some point or another (no way to be certain of course working with second-hand sources). And plot holes do not have to be big active glaring things like somtaawkhar's hypothetical Narek example to qualify as a plot hole, they can actually be rather subtle and they do not have to even be internal inconsistencies, especially in a world shared by multiple series and movies.
    >
    > To be fair, almost all movies and series do to some extent, but some handle it better than others and what I have heard of PIC makes me think they did not handle them well.
    >
    > As for specific examples, the Wired article qultuq already linked to brings up a lot of those, and there are even more. For convenience here is the link again:
    >
    > https://wired.co.uk/article/star-trek-picard-finale-review
    >
    > One that they did not address in that article (possibly because it seems to be mainly in the novelization more than the filmed part) was the supernova, which would fall into the logic plothole type, and it would not be a plothole as such if they were not using the starmap they did (just incredibly poor writing). The problem is that in order for the supernova to do the damage described to the RSE, the RSE would have had to be set up as a sphere with Romulus in the center and everything radiating out in shells like the model of an atom, yet the map they use shows the RSE as a long ellipsoid with Romulus at one end, pretty much jammed up against the Federation.
    >
    > There is simply no way the supernova could do significant damage to anything but the capital system itself and maybe one or two major colony worlds without also taking out significant Federation worlds as well (in fact Romulus is closer to Earth than it is to the center of RSE territory along the long axis). And the Romulans would need to start out with more than that to be considered one of the major powers of the quadrant.
    >
    > Also, character backstory that is not properly seeded before the reveal is a form of plot hole, and there have been plenty of people talking about how PIC does that with several characters, along with bungling Chekov's Gun moments that lead to lost or glossed over threads, poorly handled deus ex machina solutions and other things that fall into the five types.

    There is only one rule in tv/movie writing: “Don’t be boring”. Audiences will forgive a lot as long as they are entertained. Raiders of the Lost Ark breaks every writing “rule” and is still regarded as one of the best movies ever made. No one wondered how Indy knew that they needed to shut their eyes or that ultimately Indy didn’t impact the story when they walked out of the movie.
    Your pain runs deep.
    Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,460 Arc User
    There is a big difference between a well thought out and consistent "intelligent show" that people have been asking for and the sloppy, shallow, plot hole ridden show that CBS delivered. Hopefully they step back next season and actually bother to craft the stories instead of just slinging them off the top of their heads the way this season seems to do. It has nothing to do with outright stating things as such, it just requires conveying the right impressions, something they apparently fell short of.
    Name said plot holes that make the show "ridden" with them. Because I can't think of any, and most of the supposed plot holes I've seen mentioned thus far, aren't, since they were explained. Such as
    -Why did Maddox leave synth world and send Dahj and Soji to Earth/The Artifact?
    -Who did the attacks on Mars?
    -What do you mean Seven of Nine is TRIBBLE?
    starkaos wrote: »
    Not the first time a deleted scene would have explained a certain plot hole.
    I really hate how people misuse the term plothole.

    A plothole, by definition, is something that goes against the consistency, or established logic, of a narrative. Seeing Narek get obliterated into ash by a phaser rifle set to kill, only to have him come back the next episode perfectly fine, and with no mention of how he does so, is a plot hole.

    Them not explaining where Narek went after we last saw him isn't a plot hole, its just an unexplained event.

    Pretty much nothing in that video you posted is a plot hole, regardless of if the deleted scenes happened to exist or not.

    Actually that definition is not correct, there are more than just narrative plot holes. In fact, there are generally considered to be five: narrative, McGuffin, character, logic, and deus ex machina. From what I have read PIC seems to hit all five at some point or another (no way to be certain of course working with second-hand sources). And plot holes do not have to be big active glaring things like somtaawkhar's hypothetical Narek example to qualify as a plot hole, they can actually be rather subtle and they do not have to even be internal inconsistencies, especially in a world shared by multiple series and movies.

    To be fair, almost all movies and series do to some extent, but some handle it better than others and what I have heard of PIC makes me think they did not handle them well.

    As for specific examples, the Wired article qultuq already linked to brings up a lot of those, and there are even more. For convenience here is the link again:

    https://wired.co.uk/article/star-trek-picard-finale-review

    One that they did not address in that article (possibly because it seems to be mainly in the novelization more than the filmed part) was the supernova, which would fall into the logic plothole type, and it would not be a plothole as such if they were not using the starmap they did (just incredibly poor writing). The problem is that in order for the supernova to do the damage described to the RSE, the RSE would have had to be set up as a sphere with Romulus in the center and everything radiating out in shells like the model of an atom, yet the map they use shows the RSE as a long ellipsoid with Romulus at one end, pretty much jammed up against the Federation.

    There is simply no way the supernova could do significant damage to anything but the capital system itself and maybe one or two major colony worlds without also taking out significant Federation worlds as well (in fact Romulus is closer to Earth than it is to the center of RSE territory along the long axis). And the Romulans would need to start out with more than that to be considered one of the major powers of the quadrant.

    Also, character backstory that is not properly seeded before the reveal is a form of plot hole, and there have been plenty of people talking about how PIC does that with several characters, along with bungling Chekov's Gun moments that lead to lost or glossed over threads, poorly handled deus ex machina solutions and other things that fall into the five types.

    A standard supernova would have an EMP travelling at light speed with a massive ejection of material travelling at a fraction of the speed of light. By the time that we figure out a supernova is happening, it would be too late for us to do anything about the EMP and it would wipe out most of our electronics. However, an EMP would likely not affect the Federation and would have years to prepare for the Supernova. The material travelling at a fraction of light speed would devastate the Earth if it doesn't destroy it for us, but the Federation has some methods of preparing for it.

    However, the Romulan Supernova is not a typical supernova and STO used Iconians to explain its eccentricities. So it is pointless to use what we know about supernovas to explain the Romulan Supernova.
  • khan5000khan5000 Member Posts: 2,932 Arc User
    > @starkaos said:
    > (Quote)
    >
    > A standard supernova would have an EMP travelling at light speed with a massive ejection of material travelling at a fraction of the speed of light. By the time that we figure out a supernova is happening, it would be too late for us to do anything about the EMP and it would wipe out most of our electronics. However, an EMP would likely not affect the Federation and would have years to prepare for the Supernova. The material travelling at a fraction of light speed would devastate the Earth if it doesn't destroy it for us, but the Federation has some methods of preparing for it.
    >
    > However, the Romulan Supernova is not a typical supernova and STO used Iconians to explain its eccentricities. So it is pointless to use what we know about supernovas to explain the Romulan Supernova.

    Also I’m reading the prequel book and the data on the supernova was given to the Federation by the Romulans. They weren’t able to study it on their own until later and that’s when they realized it was gonna be sooner than they thought
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  • nrobbiecnrobbiec Member Posts: 877 Arc User
    It occurred to me (a little late in the head brain) that Picard dying and becoming a bioandroid and remembering dying etc is payoff for Q's final words to him in AGT.
  • ryurangerryuranger Member Posts: 451 Arc User
    I do not know if anyone notice but the Vessels in Star Trek Picard Season Final Et In Arcadia Ego Part 2 looks like Vessels Straight out of Star Trek Online some looking like Avenger Class and Multipurpose Cruiser I think it was kinda cool and the Uniforms looks vary much like the 2400's Uniforms too just some minor details changed I think they a Treating Online as Cannon from what I am seeing in Star Trek Picard
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  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 10,338 Arc User
    ryuranger wrote: »
    I do not know if anyone notice but the Vessels in Star Trek Picard Season Final Et In Arcadia Ego Part 2 looks like Vessels Straight out of Star Trek Online some looking like Avenger Class and Multipurpose Cruiser I think it was kinda cool and the Uniforms looks vary much like the 2400's Uniforms too just some minor details changed I think they a Treating Online as Cannon from what I am seeing in Star Trek Picard

    No. They really don't. The show ignores STOs entire backstory pig-3.gif​​
    lFC4bt2.gif
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  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,460 Arc User
    angrytarg wrote: »
    ryuranger wrote: »
    I do not know if anyone notice but the Vessels in Star Trek Picard Season Final Et In Arcadia Ego Part 2 looks like Vessels Straight out of Star Trek Online some looking like Avenger Class and Multipurpose Cruiser I think it was kinda cool and the Uniforms looks vary much like the 2400's Uniforms too just some minor details changed I think they a Treating Online as Cannon from what I am seeing in Star Trek Picard

    No. They really don't. The show ignores STOs entire backstory pig-3.gif​​

    As it should be.
  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 2,450 Arc User
    edited March 2020
    In fact, there are generally considered to be five: narrative, McGuffin, character, logic, and deus ex machina.
    All of which are covered in the definition I originally provided. So you said I want wrong, only to write out a longer version of what I had just said.
    There is simply no way the supernova could do significant damage to anything but the capital system itself and maybe one or two major colony worlds
    Star Trek has already long established that the loss of the homeworld = the destruction of said civilization
    -The Iconians
    -The T'Kon
    -The Makers(of the Mudd Androids)
    To name a few. And both the T'Kon and the "Makers" both suffered the EXACT same situation as the Romulans, where the star of the home system went nova, and both utterly collapsed despite having far LARGER empires then the Romulans.
    Also, character backstory that is not properly seeded before the reveal is a form of plot hole, and there have been plenty of people talking about how PIC does that with several characters, along with bungling Chekov's Gun moments that lead to lost or glossed over threads, poorly handled deus ex machina solutions and other things that fall into the five types.
    Chekov's Gun is a literary technique, one that is not needed to be followed, and generally isn't by most writing unless its a very bare bones story. Not everything mentioned has to lead to something, there is a thing called world building, where characters and dialog give out more information beyond the most minimal needed, in order to address things that would logically be going on, even if they aren't important to the story at hand.

    And again
    NAME
    SOME

    Ok, lets give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you meant your definition to cover all five despite sounding like you were only giving the definition of narrative plot holes. That still leaves your definition a bit short because it still only counts active plot holes and not oversight ones and the like.

    As for the incredibly lazy and idiotic "destroyed homeworld" thing, that is itself a logic plothole that Trek fell into way back in TNG. If Washington DC and maybe a burg or two near it was nuked do you think the US would magically evaporate? An empire is not like a single city-state, it is like a big country like the US. As for the examples you gave:

    The Iconians were said to have been driven back to their homeworld (which is a bit iffy itself considering the gates, it would be like herding cats) before it was bombed into a cinder.

    The Tkon were the poster child of that particular stupid "the life of the king is the life of the people" plot hole. Not much to say in the writer's favor on that except maybe the Tkon were somehow tied to their home star's lifespan by space magic, sort of like the Companion from "Metamorphosis" but with longer range. Either way, TNG dropped the ball big time on that one and it came off sounding like something from a kiddie serial (minus the V8 powered rocketships) though the episode itself was not bad for TNG despite that flaw.

    The Makers were from Andromeda and pushed an exploratory expedition all the way to this galaxy, that had to be expensive. We really do not know what happened to them except for the nova, it is possible that they fell into chaos or they may have just turned their resources to a massive orderly evacuation or a number of other possibilities and the expedition lost its funding or whatever. All Mudd's androids really knew is that they did not come back because of it, and for all we the viewers know that may be for a reason as simple as that after recovering they did not feel it was worth the effort to recover automated probes sent they to another galaxy or whatever.

    And the homeworld thing is not even universal in Star Trek anyway, look the Klingons and Praxis. Sure, it was a moon and only flash-fried half the planet (and probably EMPed the rest) but the idea is the same as a nova. The Klingons did not magically disappear, their economy collapsed. And that was in a movie where being brief often takes precedence over making sense but they still took the time to think it through (or they just stole the idea from Tom Clancy, but if so at least they stole from the best).

    And yes, Chekov's Gun is a literary technique, what did you think this was about if not writing? Chekov's Gun is essentially a rule of thumb about introducing elements to a story, and like all the others it can be broken in good ways or bad ways. Some of the bad ways introduce plot holes the same way bad editing can.

    As for examples, I have given some already, along with repeating a link to an article with more. And yes, some of them could technically be some other writing problem but still have enough of one or more of the five types to be considered a plot hole.


    starkaos wrote: »
    There is a big difference between a well thought out and consistent "intelligent show" that people have been asking for and the sloppy, shallow, plot hole ridden show that CBS delivered. Hopefully they step back next season and actually bother to craft the stories instead of just slinging them off the top of their heads the way this season seems to do. It has nothing to do with outright stating things as such, it just requires conveying the right impressions, something they apparently fell short of.
    Name said plot holes that make the show "ridden" with them. Because I can't think of any, and most of the supposed plot holes I've seen mentioned thus far, aren't, since they were explained. Such as
    -Why did Maddox leave synth world and send Dahj and Soji to Earth/The Artifact?
    -Who did the attacks on Mars?
    -What do you mean Seven of Nine is TRIBBLE?
    starkaos wrote: »
    Not the first time a deleted scene would have explained a certain plot hole.
    I really hate how people misuse the term plothole.

    A plothole, by definition, is something that goes against the consistency, or established logic, of a narrative. Seeing Narek get obliterated into ash by a phaser rifle set to kill, only to have him come back the next episode perfectly fine, and with no mention of how he does so, is a plot hole.

    Them not explaining where Narek went after we last saw him isn't a plot hole, its just an unexplained event.

    Pretty much nothing in that video you posted is a plot hole, regardless of if the deleted scenes happened to exist or not.

    Actually that definition is not correct, there are more than just narrative plot holes. In fact, there are generally considered to be five: narrative, McGuffin, character, logic, and deus ex machina. From what I have read PIC seems to hit all five at some point or another (no way to be certain of course working with second-hand sources). And plot holes do not have to be big active glaring things like somtaawkhar's hypothetical Narek example to qualify as a plot hole, they can actually be rather subtle and they do not have to even be internal inconsistencies, especially in a world shared by multiple series and movies.

    To be fair, almost all movies and series do to some extent, but some handle it better than others and what I have heard of PIC makes me think they did not handle them well.

    As for specific examples, the Wired article qultuq already linked to brings up a lot of those, and there are even more. For convenience here is the link again:

    https://wired.co.uk/article/star-trek-picard-finale-review

    One that they did not address in that article (possibly because it seems to be mainly in the novelization more than the filmed part) was the supernova, which would fall into the logic plothole type, and it would not be a plothole as such if they were not using the starmap they did (just incredibly poor writing). The problem is that in order for the supernova to do the damage described to the RSE, the RSE would have had to be set up as a sphere with Romulus in the center and everything radiating out in shells like the model of an atom, yet the map they use shows the RSE as a long ellipsoid with Romulus at one end, pretty much jammed up against the Federation.

    There is simply no way the supernova could do significant damage to anything but the capital system itself and maybe one or two major colony worlds without also taking out significant Federation worlds as well (in fact Romulus is closer to Earth than it is to the center of RSE territory along the long axis). And the Romulans would need to start out with more than that to be considered one of the major powers of the quadrant.

    Also, character backstory that is not properly seeded before the reveal is a form of plot hole, and there have been plenty of people talking about how PIC does that with several characters, along with bungling Chekov's Gun moments that lead to lost or glossed over threads, poorly handled deus ex machina solutions and other things that fall into the five types.

    A standard supernova would have an EMP travelling at light speed with a massive ejection of material travelling at a fraction of the speed of light. By the time that we figure out a supernova is happening, it would be too late for us to do anything about the EMP and it would wipe out most of our electronics. However, an EMP would likely not affect the Federation and would have years to prepare for the Supernova. The material travelling at a fraction of light speed would devastate the Earth if it doesn't destroy it for us, but the Federation has some methods of preparing for it.

    However, the Romulan Supernova is not a typical supernova and STO used Iconians to explain its eccentricities. So it is pointless to use what we know about supernovas to explain the Romulan Supernova.

    The Romulan supernova's eccentricities are irrelevant to the coverage problem. Yes, subspace disturbances are possible and travel at FTL speeds per the Praxis disaster. In fact the writers would be well within the realm of plausibility if they said the supernova somehow disturbed the quantum membrane and caused a massive nadion discharge which essentially proximity-blast phasered Romulus and everything else in its path (that would even have the handy trait of starting out travelling very rapidly but slowing as it lost energy).

    The problem comes in because the CBS take on it is that the supernova destroyed the RSE literally, by way of its expanding shock wave smashing all of its major worlds or whatever, yet the map they use (and in fact most of the maps, going all the way back to "Balance of Terror") shows that the supernova could not possibly cover a significant amount of Romulan space without destroying a large swath of the Federation as well. The cartography is clear, they are just too close to Earth for it to work they say it does, or at least without it being almost as big a disaster for the Federation as it is for the Romulans. The fact that it had the effect described in PIC without that damage to the Federation (especially Earth and Bolarus) is what makes it a huge gaping plot hole.

    Why they did not go with the far more plausible reason STO uses for the fall of the RSE, (namely that it took out enough of the praetoriate to cause a power vacuum and the empire tore itself apart in internal factional squabbles), is a mystery though it is typical of the poor plot decisions and other sloppiness Trek has suffered from under Kurtzman. It makes me wonder why they bothered to take a look at STO's lore at all, though I suspect it may have been more a way of making sure they were NOT doing what STO did rather than as a way of synchronizing them.
    Post edited by phoenixc#0738 on
  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,460 Arc User
    Why they did not go with the far more plausible reason STO uses for the fall of the RSE, (namely that it took out enough of the praetoriate to cause a power vacuum and the empire tore itself apart in internal factional squabbles), is a mystery though it is typical of the poor plot decisions and other sloppiness Trek has suffered from under Kurtzman. It makes me wonder why they bothered to take a look at STO's lore at all, though I suspect it may have been more a way of making sure they were NOT doing what STO did rather than as a way of synchronizing them.

    Aside from the Zhat Vash, Qowat Milat, and a bit of Romulan mythology, we know about as much as we did on the Romulans now compared to before Picard was first launched. However, it looks like there is a power vacuum for the Romulans since the warlord in charge of Vashti had an antique Romulan Bird of Prey. The only significant Romulan military we saw was under the control of the Zhat Vash in the Season Finale.
  • khan5000khan5000 Member Posts: 2,932 Arc User
    In fact, there are generally considered to be five: narrative, McGuffin, character, logic, and deus ex machina.
    All of which are covered in the definition I originally provided. So you said I want wrong, only to write out a longer version of what I had just said.
    There is simply no way the supernova could do significant damage to anything but the capital system itself and maybe one or two major colony worlds
    Star Trek has already long established that the loss of the homeworld = the destruction of said civilization
    -The Iconians
    -The T'Kon
    -The Makers(of the Mudd Androids)
    To name a few. And both the T'Kon and the "Makers" both suffered the EXACT same situation as the Romulans, where the star of the home system went nova, and both utterly collapsed despite having far LARGER empires then the Romulans.
    Also, character backstory that is not properly seeded before the reveal is a form of plot hole, and there have been plenty of people talking about how PIC does that with several characters, along with bungling Chekov's Gun moments that lead to lost or glossed over threads, poorly handled deus ex machina solutions and other things that fall into the five types.
    Chekov's Gun is a literary technique, one that is not needed to be followed, and generally isn't by most writing unless its a very bare bones story. Not everything mentioned has to lead to something, there is a thing called world building, where characters and dialog give out more information beyond the most minimal needed, in order to address things that would logically be going on, even if they aren't important to the story at hand.

    And again
    NAME
    SOME

    Ok, lets give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you meant your definition to cover all five despite sounding like you were only giving the definition of narrative plot holes. That still leaves your definition a bit short because it still only counts active plot holes and not oversight ones and the like.

    As for the incredibly lazy and idiotic "destroyed homeworld" thing, that is itself a logic plothole that Trek fell into way back in TNG. If Washington DC and maybe a burg or two near it was nuked do you think the US would magically evaporate? An empire is not like a single city-state, it is like a big country like the US. As for the examples you gave:

    The Iconians were said to have been driven back to their homeworld (which is a bit iffy itself considering the gates, it would be like herding cats) before it was bombed into a cinder.

    The Tkon were the poster child of that particular stupid "the life of the king is the life of the people" plot hole. Not much to say in the writer's favor on that except maybe the Tkon were somehow tied to their home star's lifespan by space magic, sort of like the Companion from "Metamorphosis" but with longer range. Either way, TNG dropped the ball big time on that one and it came off sounding like something from a kiddie serial (minus the V8 powered rocketships) though the episode itself was not bad for TNG despite that flaw.

    The Makers were from Andromeda and pushed an exploratory expedition all the way to this galaxy, that had to be expensive. We really do not know what happened to them except for the nova, it is possible that they fell into chaos or they may have just turned their resources to a massive orderly evacuation or a number of other possibilities and the expedition lost its funding or whatever. All Mudd's androids really knew is that they did not come back because of it, and for all we the viewers know that may be for a reason as simple as that after recovering they did not feel it was worth the effort to recover automated probes sent they to another galaxy or whatever.

    And the homeworld thing is not even universal in Star Trek anyway, look the Klingons and Praxis. Sure, it was a moon and only flash-fried half the planet (and probably EMPed the rest) but the idea is the same as a nova. The Klingons did not magically disappear, their economy collapsed. And that was in a movie where being brief often takes precedence over making sense but they still took the time to think it through (or they just stole the idea from Tom Clancy, but if so at least they stole from the best).

    And yes, Chekov's Gun is a literary technique, what did you think this was about if not writing? Chekov's Gun is essentially a rule of thumb about introducing elements to a story, and like all the others it can be broken in good ways or bad ways. Some of the bad ways introduce plot holes the same way bad editing can.

    As for examples, I have given some already, along with repeating a link to an article with more. And yes, some of them could technically be some other writing problem but still have enough of one or more of the five types to be considered a plot hole.


    starkaos wrote: »
    There is a big difference between a well thought out and consistent "intelligent show" that people have been asking for and the sloppy, shallow, plot hole ridden show that CBS delivered. Hopefully they step back next season and actually bother to craft the stories instead of just slinging them off the top of their heads the way this season seems to do. It has nothing to do with outright stating things as such, it just requires conveying the right impressions, something they apparently fell short of.
    Name said plot holes that make the show "ridden" with them. Because I can't think of any, and most of the supposed plot holes I've seen mentioned thus far, aren't, since they were explained. Such as
    -Why did Maddox leave synth world and send Dahj and Soji to Earth/The Artifact?
    -Who did the attacks on Mars?
    -What do you mean Seven of Nine is TRIBBLE?
    starkaos wrote: »
    Not the first time a deleted scene would have explained a certain plot hole.
    I really hate how people misuse the term plothole.

    A plothole, by definition, is something that goes against the consistency, or established logic, of a narrative. Seeing Narek get obliterated into ash by a phaser rifle set to kill, only to have him come back the next episode perfectly fine, and with no mention of how he does so, is a plot hole.

    Them not explaining where Narek went after we last saw him isn't a plot hole, its just an unexplained event.

    Pretty much nothing in that video you posted is a plot hole, regardless of if the deleted scenes happened to exist or not.

    Actually that definition is not correct, there are more than just narrative plot holes. In fact, there are generally considered to be five: narrative, McGuffin, character, logic, and deus ex machina. From what I have read PIC seems to hit all five at some point or another (no way to be certain of course working with second-hand sources). And plot holes do not have to be big active glaring things like somtaawkhar's hypothetical Narek example to qualify as a plot hole, they can actually be rather subtle and they do not have to even be internal inconsistencies, especially in a world shared by multiple series and movies.

    To be fair, almost all movies and series do to some extent, but some handle it better than others and what I have heard of PIC makes me think they did not handle them well.

    As for specific examples, the Wired article qultuq already linked to brings up a lot of those, and there are even more. For convenience here is the link again:

    https://wired.co.uk/article/star-trek-picard-finale-review

    One that they did not address in that article (possibly because it seems to be mainly in the novelization more than the filmed part) was the supernova, which would fall into the logic plothole type, and it would not be a plothole as such if they were not using the starmap they did (just incredibly poor writing). The problem is that in order for the supernova to do the damage described to the RSE, the RSE would have had to be set up as a sphere with Romulus in the center and everything radiating out in shells like the model of an atom, yet the map they use shows the RSE as a long ellipsoid with Romulus at one end, pretty much jammed up against the Federation.

    There is simply no way the supernova could do significant damage to anything but the capital system itself and maybe one or two major colony worlds without also taking out significant Federation worlds as well (in fact Romulus is closer to Earth than it is to the center of RSE territory along the long axis). And the Romulans would need to start out with more than that to be considered one of the major powers of the quadrant.

    Also, character backstory that is not properly seeded before the reveal is a form of plot hole, and there have been plenty of people talking about how PIC does that with several characters, along with bungling Chekov's Gun moments that lead to lost or glossed over threads, poorly handled deus ex machina solutions and other things that fall into the five types.

    A standard supernova would have an EMP travelling at light speed with a massive ejection of material travelling at a fraction of the speed of light. By the time that we figure out a supernova is happening, it would be too late for us to do anything about the EMP and it would wipe out most of our electronics. However, an EMP would likely not affect the Federation and would have years to prepare for the Supernova. The material travelling at a fraction of light speed would devastate the Earth if it doesn't destroy it for us, but the Federation has some methods of preparing for it.

    However, the Romulan Supernova is not a typical supernova and STO used Iconians to explain its eccentricities. So it is pointless to use what we know about supernovas to explain the Romulan Supernova.

    The Romulan supernova's eccentricities are irrelevant to the coverage problem. Yes, subspace disturbances are possible and travel at FTL speeds per the Praxis disaster. In fact the writers would be well within the realm of plausibility if they said the supernova somehow disturbed the quantum membrane and caused a massive nadion discharge which essentially proximity-blast phasered Romulus and everything else in its path (that would even have the handy trait of starting out travelling very rapidly but slowing as it lost energy).

    The problem comes in because the CBS take on it is that the supernova destroyed the RSE literally, by way of its expanding shock wave smashing all of its major worlds or whatever, yet the map they use (and in fact most of the maps, going all the way back to "Balance of Terror") shows that the supernova could not possibly cover a significant amount of Romulan space without destroying a large swath of the Federation as well. The cartography is clear, they are just too close to Earth for it to work they say it does, or at least without it being almost as big a disaster for the Federation as it is for the Romulans. The fact that it had the effect described in PIC without that damage to the Federation (especially Earth and Bolarus) is what makes it a huge gaping plot hole.

    Why they did not go with the far more plausible reason STO uses for the fall of the RSE, (namely that it took out enough of the praetoriate to cause a power vacuum and the empire tore itself apart in internal factional squabbles), is a mystery though it is typical of the poor plot decisions and other sloppiness Trek has suffered from under Kurtzman. It makes me wonder why they bothered to take a look at STO's lore at all, though I suspect it may have been more a way of making sure they were NOT doing what STO did rather than as a way of synchronizing them.

    The supernova did not take out a significant part of Romulan space. The Supernova threaten Romulus and 15 Romulan colony worlds that had similar populations.

    We dont know what the true nature of the Romulan government is. I suspect that it is as you suggest. The RSE splintered and shrank. It became a collection of states. We only know of the Romulan Free State. Think of how the Austria-Hungary Empire was broken into smaller countries after WW1.
    Your pain runs deep.
    Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 9,243 Arc User
    The Romulan Star Empire is/was a highly centralized, highly militarized empire. Eliminating its capital world would have been more than sufficient cause for any number of nascent rebellions, from the Reunificationists to some local warlord, to rise against what had been the might of the Romulan fleet, coordinated by Central Command and the Tal'Shiar.

    See, for example, what the Soviet Union commonly assumed would happen if Moscow were destroyed in war, even if the other "republics" were untouched. (Or, for that matter, what actually happened when the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991.)
    Lorna-Wing-sig.png
  • saurializardsaurializard Member Posts: 3,493 Arc User
    edited April 2020
    khan5000 wrote: »
    starkaos wrote: »
    khan5000 wrote: »
    starkaos wrote: »
    If there is plot holes in Picard, it would be how easy it was for the Federation to implement the Synth Ban due to how loyal Data was and how easily Picard lost his Admiral rank due to Picard saving the Federation a few times. Commodore Oh wouldn't have enough power to kick out Picard and force a Synth Ban on the Federation.

    This is the same organization that banned genetic engineering based on the actions of a few several centuries ago. When Bashir was instrumental in helping to win the Dominion War that ban wasn’t recalled.
    Picard didn’t lose his commission. He resigned. Leaving/rejoining Star Fleet seems to be as easy as just saying “ I’m out” or “I’m back”.
    Commodore Oh didn’t kick Picard out.

    There is a slight difference between the genetic engineering ban and the synth ban. The genetic engineering ban was the result of a bunch of genetically engineered humans trying to take over Earth and a few hundred years in the future had a good genetically engineered human. Genetic engineering was still allowed in the Federation to fix genetic problems like Down Syndrome, Cystic Fibrosis, and Sickle Cell Anemia. The synth ban had a good synthetic and a couple of decades later had a rebellion with a bunch of mediocre synths that didn't have the mental capacity to rebel without external help.

    I don’t think they’re allowed to fix genetic defects. Wasn’t that the whole issue with Bashir? His parents were trying to fix a defect. His dad went to prison over that.
    All the Federation knew at that point was...the synthetics rebelled and destroyed UP. They didn’t know they got TRIBBLE. For all they know the synths could have evolved into sentience.
    To add to that, it was Oh/Nedar who was behind this all this time. So the rebellion, the ban and not officially finding out the synths were TRIBBLE were all planned since the beginning.

    As I mentioned earlier, put one *censored* in charge and they can easily sway the entire organization they now control over time. As several ST shows showed (TNG with the Conspiracy arc, DS9 with the Changeling infiltrators), it's even rather easy to manipulate the Federation. Heck, it seems that when someone questions your behavior and motive if you're looking like an important figure, all you have to say is "that's a stupid question!", and you get what you want.

    And Oh was apparently in charge of Starfleet Security for at least 9 years (when she arranged for Sutra's twin to be killed). Plenty of time to progressively push a whole Federation towards a more and more isolationist, xenophobic stance, especially after the devastating Dominion War (the lead writer said he wanted to be more explicit about how the DW was one of the big reasons for the change of the Federation but this was veto'ed by the executives).

    Again, like how it has and is still happening -with the approval of a part of the whole population- in our real world. Except you can shorten "that's a stupid question!" to "fake news!".

    EDIT: Excuse me, since when does one put "the action of hijacking a piece of software" in the profanity filter?
    #TASforSTO
    Iconian_Trio_sign.jpg?raw=1
  • khan5000khan5000 Member Posts: 2,932 Arc User
    Did the profanity filter get TRIBBLE by the Romulans?
    Your pain runs deep.
    Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
  • nrobbiecnrobbiec Member Posts: 877 Arc User
    > @khan5000 said:
    > Did the profanity filter get TRIBBLE by the Romulans?

    It has seemed horrendously borked recently
  • captainbrian11captainbrian11 Member Posts: 588 Arc User
    the Zhad Vash proably thought the profanity filter was a AI and took corrective actions ;)
  • reyan01reyan01 Member Posts: 14,243 Arc User
    starkaos wrote: »
    Why they did not go with the far more plausible reason STO uses for the fall of the RSE, (namely that it took out enough of the praetoriate to cause a power vacuum and the empire tore itself apart in internal factional squabbles), is a mystery though it is typical of the poor plot decisions and other sloppiness Trek has suffered from under Kurtzman. It makes me wonder why they bothered to take a look at STO's lore at all, though I suspect it may have been more a way of making sure they were NOT doing what STO did rather than as a way of synchronizing them.

    Aside from the Zhat Vash, Qowat Milat, and a bit of Romulan mythology, we know about as much as we did on the Romulans now compared to before Picard was first launched. However, it looks like there is a power vacuum for the Romulans since the warlord in charge of Vashti had an antique Romulan Bird of Prey. The only significant Romulan military we saw was under the control of the Zhat Vash in the Season Finale.

    This was probably another reason General Oh didn't want to fight Starfleet.


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