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To the FANS of Discovery/Picard/etc: what do you think are actually VALID criticisms?
thegrandnagus1
Member Posts: 5,166 Arc User
I saw a similar thread on reddit and it led to some really interesting comments, so I wanted to see what you folks think.
The concept: we all know "haters gonna hate", and true "hate" isn't really useful and should probably be dismissed. But what shouldn't be dismissed is constructive criticism from people who are actually FANS of the show, because those are the folks that actually want the show to succeed!
So to the FANS of Disco/Picard: what do you think are actually VALID criticisms of the shows, and how do you think these issues can been improved?
Note: the purpose of this thread is to ask YOUR subjective opinion to the question above. The purpose of this thread is NOT to try to disprove someone else's subjective opinion to the question above.
The concept: we all know "haters gonna hate", and true "hate" isn't really useful and should probably be dismissed. But what shouldn't be dismissed is constructive criticism from people who are actually FANS of the show, because those are the folks that actually want the show to succeed!
So to the FANS of Disco/Picard: what do you think are actually VALID criticisms of the shows, and how do you think these issues can been improved?
Note: the purpose of this thread is to ask YOUR subjective opinion to the question above. The purpose of this thread is NOT to try to disprove someone else's subjective opinion to the question above.
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I wonder that myself, they attack anyone who dares question ST Picard and Discovery as "gatekeepers" whatever the hell that even means. Alex Kurtzman sucks compared to Rick Berman and Michael Piller, its an absolute fact. If Kurtzman was in charge of the 24th Century Star Trek series, DS9 and Voyager would not be the fan favorites they still are to this day. Berman and Piller knew Trek inside and out and it shows, Kurtzman does not and it shows. Discovery is a mess with unlikable characters, a god awful looking ship. Picard is a hollow imitation compared to TNG and the TNG films, and most of time its embarrassing to watch. The writers of Star Trek Online are far superior to the writers of either series and again it shows! Even CBS's CEO hates the direction of the new Star Trek series and was even in talks with Seth McFarland to buy the franchise for NBC/Universal. That is how bad this is getting. This is not simple rumor but facts that can clearly be seen,
In the ratings it shows and in feedback that isn't outside the prying eyes of Star Trek Online's community managers the so called "gatekeepers" themselves. Star Trek Picard and Discovery are terrible, its as simple as that.
Assuming you are actually a FAN of these shows (as my question indicated), what specific ways do you think they can improve?
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Discovery is a lost cause but Captain Pike and the Enterprise are a different matter. I love DSC's Captain Pike and Spock, take out Discovery and focus on Pike's voyages as Captain of the Enterprise with Number One. The Enterprise is gorgeous and I would watch the heck out of a Pike series if done by someone OTHER then Alex Kurtzman. There is potential for a great series that harks back to what made ST so great.
As for Picard, the Romulan Empire going from a feared "frenemy" to a broken useless Empire just because of one star going nova is just comical if not stupid. The fact Starfleet created an army of androids (not synths) as laborers for their most prized shipyard flies in the face of what TNG did in "Measure of a Man" and it degrades Data's memory.
Personally they should scrap the whole thing and start from scratch. Everything is just off. Picard should still be Starfleet as an Admiral or Ambassador not chasing through the stars like a young action hero. Have him hitch a ride on the Defiant under Captain Kira or the new Enterprise-F, if you really are ambitious, introduce Captain Worf in command of the Enterprise E. In the novels Riker is an Admiral with the Titan as his Flagship, he operates as a sector commander much like Admiral Ross was. Picard could have done the same thing. Worf in command of his own crew, how cool would that have been? That's Star Trek. What we have now is a sad imitation of Joss Whedon's Firefly and I really mean SAD imitation. Star Trek Picard sacrificed the Star Trek. Trek was about the crew and ship, not just the Captain. Throw in a protracted Borg Invasion like the Dominion War with Picard directing Starfleet's forces with Worf in Command of the Enterprise....now you have a something to watch.
Nope - sorry - that's YOUR opinion; and you're fully within your rights to hold said opinion.
As a Star Trek fan for 51 years (watched TOS S3 first run in 1969 at age 6) - I 100% disagree with your opinion.
For me - when I saw the TNG premire in 1987, my response was: They had all this time (and they were having panels at various Science Fiction Conventions leading up to the premire witnh BTS info) - and THAT'S what they came up with? A virtual sequel yo TOS S1 - "The Squire of Gothos"??!! - and the follow up first regular episode of TNG: "The Naked Now" - so again a direct redo of the classic TOS episode: "The Naked Time" <--- Yep 3 hours in and it's still mostly a %$##@! rerun.
And while TNG did get somewhat better and finally find itself in it's third season (after about 50 episodes) - it quickly fell into it well worn pattern of plot complication, talked about ad nauseum, and eventually solved by some particle of the week delivered via deflector dish; or some long winded (and often hypocritical) speech by Picard.
And you could really tell when Berman and Co. were reaching and creatively bankrupt when they used the same plots from previous shows on their new ones. Hell, then VOY finale was effectively a version of TNG's "All Good Things".
So yeah, while Kurtzman and Co. do have their issues and some tropes already as well - I find the first 27 episodes of ST: D more entertaining than the entirety of the first 50 episodes of TNG - aqnd ST: D's second season overall is probably the BEST season of Star Trek since TOS Season 1.
^^^
Of course this is just an opinion too; and you're certainly free to disagree; but my point? Your statement (which I've quoted above) is HARDLY a fact.
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
> So yeah, while Kurtzman and Co. do have their issues and some tropes already as well - I find the first 27 episodes of ST: D more entertaining than the entirety of the first 50 episodes of TNG - aqnd ST: D's second season overall is probably the BEST season of Star Trek since TOS Season 1.
Great! Now what do you think are actually VALID criticisms of Disco, and how do you think these issues can been improved?
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
My major beef with Discovery is the fact that the technology in what they claim to be the mid-23rd century is more advanced than anything from TNG onward. I get that the 1960s were campy and kitschy and whatever, but the snide response of "if you want it to look like TOS, go watch a fan film" is a cop-out, and I will call it as such. The magic mushroom drive, I eventually grew (pun slightly intended) to accept that, but Discovery shows LCARS on a ship more than a century before TNG, Star Wars holographic communications, and the whole hoopla with the mirror universe. (Although at least the uniforms weren't bad.) Another issue I have is with Burnham - well, only one real issue, actually: the fact that they made her "related" to Spock. It sounds more like somebody's fan fiction.
I feel that the series improved immensely with the introduction of Pike and the Enterprise, and it's nice to see him being somewhat less stiff (referring to Jeffrey Hunter in the original pilot, not Sean Kenney in the wheelchair - the latter had no choice there). Anson Mount was excellent. I add my voice to those calling for a Pike-and-crew series with him, Rebecca Romjin, and Ethan Peck.
Now, Picard... I'm starting to get a little ehh on it now too, having seen today's episode. Perhaps because I've been involved with STO on and off since the beta, I find STO's interpretation of the post-Voyager, post-Nemesis era to make more sense than Picard has, thus far. Yes, the disaster with Romulus, but... I find the idea that the Federation would just give them all the finger, enemies or not, to be abhorrent. It flies in the face of everything Starfleet is meant to stand for, something I agree wholeheartedly with Picard about. And as mentioned, the whole business with the synth laborers, which again echoes a warning from Picard, this time in "A Measure of a Man". The warning about creating a race specifically for the purpose of having disposable slaves... welp, guess we've forgotten about that. And then added Romulan cultists as the bogeymen. Bah, I say.
The only thing that's really got me interested at all, I confess, is Seven of Nine. Seven got some of the better episodes of Voyager, I thought - and I wouldn't say she's "lightened up" since returning from the Delta Quadrant, but she is very much in tune with her humanity. Trouble is, it's with the darker side of it, which makes sense, given what she's had to endure, and especially given that she's living in a galaxy gone halfway to hell. Of course we're not likely to see her again after this, but who knows. We're only halfway through season 1, and I've often pointed out that first seasons tend to be "meh". Discovery most certainly was.
"There's No Way Like Poway!"
Real Join Date: October 2010
Honestly, I think you have completely missed the point of this thread. If you think Disco is a "lost cause" and that Picard should be "scrapped", then you obviously are not a FAN of those shows as the question specifically states.
That said, I agree with Disco Pike being awesome and hope he gets his own series!
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
For ST:D I think Burnham herself is irredeemable for what she did in the pilot (she should have been executed for her actions), and the art style for the Klingons and their ships is terrible. Both of those issues would require rewriting the pilot and some subsequent plot details to fix.
As a fan of both series, those are the main criticisms I have. I could also understand complaints about some of the romulans in STP acting more like fantasy elves than romulans, though that really doesn't bother me much.
No, its more when people start attacking each other and pulling the "True Fan" stick out and beating people to death with it saying they are NOT fans because they like something the other doesn't. Basically declaring yourself the arbiter of who can and can't be a fan because of personal preferences is considered gatekeeping. You are putting yourself in front of the gate and deciding who can pass and who needs to be beaten into the ground for not believing as you do.
The Mods are trying to cut down on such behavior, hence shutting down people who start doing it to others.
having valid concerns is one thing. Trying to force your own personal views as Word of God truth is another.
As for the subject at hand...
Discovery: They could do some work on explaining the looks of the Klingons better. On the one hand it is quite the divergence, however that has been somewhat rectified in season 2. On the other... the ships and the Klingons themselves are radically different from even TNG style. If they explained that the ships were a product of everyone building for themselves sort of thing, kinda like a free-for-all and each house was stealing designs from each other... might make more sense. The introduction of the D7 in season 2 does also set them on the path to a more unified look, and the fact that we see them with hair and looking more like the TNG style also helped. It would have been nice to maybe see a TOS style Klingon in the background at some point though. Basically... need more backstory to justify the differences.
Picard: At the moment I can't really say one way or the other. Its not the same kind of show as what we're used to.
Yep, "true fan" is basically code for:
Confession: when Star Wars the Force Awakens came out I was guilty of using that term a LOT when discussing Disney Wars and how inferior I feel it is to the old "Legends" EU.
To be fair True Fan is thrown around a lot on both sides of the argument for Discovery. Not as much for picard though.
I would try to contribute, but I'm not really a fan of both shows, I despise discovery, and I feel very disappointed by picard.
Though if I could say one thing about both, that's not related to my feelings, its that I think the shows are too nihilistic. This is kind of a problem of many modern television shows, not just sci fi. It feels like writers think everything has to be dark, bleak, apocalyptic, for people to watch it and its just tiring if anything.
So I would suggest they try and make things a bit brighter, since like with the Walking Dead, if everything is TRIBBLE, what's the point of watching?
"STOP LIKING THINGS I DON'T LIKE!!!!!"
and
"STOP DISLIKING THINGS I LIKE!!!!"
Are both equally common in fandom, and equally silly.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Tbh outside of comedies and cartoons I really don't find 'brighter' shows or movies very interesting anymore.
I hear you; I also enjoy dark shows and movies. I mean, I loved DS9 and it is much darker than the other Trek series. But here is the thing: just because I love DS9 does not mean I want all my Trek to feel like DS9. Kind of like how even though we all have our favorite foods, we don't want to eat the same thing for every meal.
Also, almost all modern sci-fi is in a "dark" phase. So rather than doing anything different, both Disco and Picard are just following the trend of every other new sci-fi show at the moment.
Having said that, S2 of Disco had a noticeably "lighter" tone, and it just so happens that most people seemed to enjoy it more than S1. Make of that what you will.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
That being said, I'm also hugely entertained by both shows and am looking forward eagerly to how each develops.
It actually makes a little bit of sense when you think of it, we only ever see starfleet ships (or the equivilant of alien powers) or small independant traders in trek. so there's no evidance of a merchant marine etc. so chances are the best source for learning the trade of starship operation etc is to go through starfleet academy. spend some time in starfleet and then retire
Discovery:
Not enough love given to the rest of the crew. I’d like to know more about the other characters.
Klingon make up. While I see what they were trying to do the prosthetics seem too thick for the actors to emote through.
Picard:
Pacing. Picard really isn’t a series. It’s an 8 hour movie broken up into “episodes”.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
On to what the OP wanted when this thread was started.
My chief complaint about both series? Too much grimdark. Seriously, one of the base concepts of Star Trek is supposed to be that humanity can rise above its failings and be better. I'm not asking for happy happy joy joy here. But I do wish the producers and writers would take their foot off the, "In the future, there is only an evil Federation and bad people everywhere" pedal a little bit.
In a similar vein, Just how easy is it to be a member of the Mustache Twirler Society and successfully mount an undercover infiltration of Starfleet? And, are there any Starfleet flag rank officers anywhere without divided loyalties?
Another complaint is the apparent fan service going on in ST:PIC. "Hey, Kids! As a special treat just for you we're bringing back some of your old favorites! And boy have they gotten old!" Part of this is because this fanbase is notorious for wanting something new and different as long as it is exactly like what is already present.
A positive about ST:PIC? I really enjoy the Raffi character. Michelle Hurd is a quality actress who brings her A game every time. She was very good on Law and Order and I think this series is lucky to have her.
A positive about ST:DSC? Actually two of them. Stamets and Tilly. Was delighted by the scene in Sickbay where Hugh told Paul, "I'm right here." This is as good a romance as anywhere else in Star Trek. Keep it up and keep it going. Tilly is wonderful! Was instantly captured by the character and her apparent normalness in relation to everyone else around her.
I have carried on into a wall. If you've slogged through my post to this point, thank you. Much appreciated.
Great.. a hater, hating on other haters... why do you bother?
anyway, being a bit less obvious on certain plot points, a bit less gruesome on the violence. trek has flirted with it on occasion but not to the extent that is seen with Voq and Icheb. the last i recalled such violence was with Commander Remmick because of those neural parasites and those Borg that were disassembled by the queen to find a frequency to unimatrix 1. It's been a bit much recently.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
I won't say that i hate Discovery, because the show has some qualities, but I don't like the characters, for me they just seem childish, add to that:
- all the whining (tilly, stamets, burham etc), Tilly is a boring character without stature.
- useless romance (at least too developed for my taste: and it is not because it is an homosexual romance, i don't care about that),
- Burnham the savior of the galaxy,
- too many temporal tricks used to hide the weakness of the stories and I don't even talk about the mycelial nonsense.
But i like Saru, one of the most interesting character but badly used. he should have been the hero of this show.
The artists have made a good work to bring Star Trek in 2020. (except the klinks)
I watched the season 3 trailer, and it seems that again Burham will save the galaxy. I'm not going to watch the third season.
Picard:
For now, only 5 episodes are released, and what i could say; this show is awesome, why? because everything is different, the characters have an adult behavior, no whining even when Icheb died, there are also humour, self-mockery. For now, the story seems to follow an intelligent path (wait and see).
the romulan empire destabilized by the destruction of Romulus! well at first I thought that was a bit ridiculous, but this empire was full of factions, full of enslaved peoples; so if we compare Romulus to the Ancient Rome; the fall of Rome created a vacuum in the power and this vacuum was used by usurpers, multiple factions etc. it could be a good parallel.
I like also the fact that the pseudo-utopist federation is not anymore the imperialistic way of thinking, of "good peoples": Something is rotten in the state of Denmark.
I think that these tv shows don't target the same viewers.
Enjoyed your post also. BTW, are you the same "thunderfoot" that did a bunch of ship mods for SFC and Armada?
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
My character Tsin'xing
I mean Picard is centerted around Picard but it doesn't pretend not to be a "character study of one man"
This is one of the problems I had with Season 2. Zero coverage of Airiam and when we finally had some backstory, they killed her off at the end of the episode.
I love all Star Trek. I saw nothing hateful in what the Grand Nagus said. I have not watched Season 2 of Discovery and have only watched the Picard pilot, so I really cannot provide input into the discussion about both shows. I have not seen any of the Short Treks which build on the background stories of some of the characters in Discovery like Saru and introduce new characters as well. With that said I will give some tidbits, it is hard to watch Star Trek: Discovery if you have not watched the first episode since it is done through a narrative format instead of an episodic format which I am used to with TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY, and ENT. Same probably could be said about Picard. I had to watch the pilot twice to catch some stuff since the pacing was too fast for me and at times confusing. I did not have a problem with Discovery in regards to pacing in Season 1 even the pilot. Finally, I have never been convinced by the technology argument since DSC is set between ENT and TOS as well as this is not the 60s where there were technological limitations, lighting problems, a shoestring budget for the show, etc. Those are my two cents on the matter. Thanks.
Yeah, like Harry Mudd and Cyrano Jones did...oh, wait...
They HAD to make Rios a closet Picard fan boy because that's the only way you can explain:
- Him causally saying: "Oh, ok we need to head into Romulan controlled space...yaeh my 'fee' (which has never been shown just WHAT Picard is paying him, or WHERE Picard is getting the funds from the 'moneyless' Federation) just doubles (and he said it in a causal joking manner).
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Being too focused on one character. I.e. DSC is so tied to Michael Burnham that she's the series' Achilles heel: if you don't like her, you won't like the show.
Blown political messages. I've talked before about its unintentionally racist writing and the mistake of trying to use the Klingons to talk about far right extremism, and not groups like Terra Prime and Section 31. https://tinyurl.com/t24mwps
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Not necessarily. I hate Burnham as a character (as I said above I think she should have been executed for her actions in the Disco pilot), but I've learned to like the show once it started walking back it's poor art decisions.
I DO like Sonequa Martin-Green though, it's only her character that I dislike and that's as I said primarily because of her actions in the pilot and her ludicrous redemption and eventual reinstatement.
Most negative criticisms from Star Trek fans boils down to it is not my Star Trek. Discovery and Picard are certainly less optimistic than the other Star Trek series.