And this seems to be the problem that various characters have with Picard, he gave up. It doesn't matter how many people can't be saved, but how many can be saved. By giving up, Picard let those people down. Then there is the fact that the Federation doesn't care why the Synths rebelled and outlawed all synthetic life research. It would not surprise me if part of the Federation council or more accurately their underlings TRIBBLE the Synths and destroyed the rescue armada. They get rid of a lot of Romulans and have the perfect scapegoat.
And something Picard has to live with, and they're showing how he feels about it too. He's not happy with himself either. He tried everything, bet everything, and lost.
Without proper worldbuilding, on the writing end it is all too easy to start slinging very iffy and implausible plot points around (VOY had a lot of the same problem btw) and solving things by contrived means instead of things that actually make sense, and sense like that happens most when characters, factions, and history are reasonably fleshed out. With good worldbuilding a setting and cast often take on a life of their own and practically write themselves.
Voyager's issue was "too many cooks in the kitchen". Too many writers with their own ideas for where to take the characters/ Main reason why Janeway's all over the place. One episode she's by the book, the next she's Kirk level Cowboy.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
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(obscene/objectional/vulgar material removed) - darkbladejk
Post edited by darkbladejk on
"Great men are not peacemakers, Great men are conquerors!" - Captain Archer" "When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway #Support Mirror Universe I.S.S. Prefixes
One example of that is the anti-evacuation ultimatum thing people keep talking about here. For comparison, the US government is unlikely to simply cave in to some arbitrary ultimatum by a few states and cancel emergency hurricane relief or whatever to a foreign country, what is much, much more likely to happen is a faction apposed to those efforts snarling things up in the house, senate, or courts to delay action until it is too late for it to do any good. I imagine the Federation would probably be much the same way, maybe even more so, since passive resistance is so often more effective than the Hollywood favorite melodrama of politicians dropping their metaphorical flys and drawing lines in the sand, daring each other to cross.
You know, you bring up a point here. Secession/rebellion/independence is not the option of first resort, there would be all manner of things happening prior to that as tensions grow between the two factions. The US Civil War didn't just suddenly start in 1861, it was set in motion years before that with growing tensions in the decades prior. The War of Independence was result of a lot of things happening in the 1760s and 70s.
So that brings to mind that world building issue. If we are supposed to believe that helping Rommies results in secession, what pre-existing situation was going on to cause that level of tension in the Federation? And why wouldn't this tension still be there? Not only that, but this kind of tension has two sides, so there would have been some opposite reaction by bowing to the demands, which in this case caused the death of a billion Romulans. Where was the outrage at that in the rest of the Federation?
I don't think there is an actual answer, of course, because I'm quite sure the writers didn't think any of this through.
And this seems to be the problem that various characters have with Picard, he gave up. It doesn't matter how many people can't be saved, but how many can be saved. By giving up, Picard let those people down. Then there is the fact that the Federation doesn't care why the Synths rebelled and outlawed all synthetic life research. It would not surprise me if part of the Federation council or more accurately their underlings TRIBBLE the Synths and destroyed the rescue armada. They get rid of a lot of Romulans and have the perfect scapegoat.
And something Picard has to live with, and they're showing how he feels about it too. He's not happy with himself either. He tried everything, bet everything, and lost.
Without proper worldbuilding, on the writing end it is all too easy to start slinging very iffy and implausible plot points around (VOY had a lot of the same problem btw) and solving things by contrived means instead of things that actually make sense, and sense like that happens most when characters, factions, and history are reasonably fleshed out. With good worldbuilding a setting and cast often take on a life of their own and practically write themselves.
Voyager's issue was "too many cooks in the kitchen". Too many writers with their own ideas for where to take the characters/ Main reason why Janeway's all over the place. One episode she's by the book, the next she's Kirk level Cowboy.
I guess your forgetting all the times when he went off with his crew ignoring orders and telling the admirals in charge to go to hell. Kirk did it, Picard did it, Janeway did it, Sisko did it and Archer did it.
He tried everything my TRIBBLE. He resigned. That isn't trying... that is putting noose around your neck and giving up. He never exhausted all his options. He could have gone on quest for assistance from the Klingons. Instead we got a dark dystopia poor writing copy of Undiscovered Country without any of the optimism.
"Great men are not peacemakers, Great men are conquerors!" - Captain Archer" "When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway #Support Mirror Universe I.S.S. Prefixes
"Great men are not peacemakers, Great men are conquerors!" - Captain Archer" "When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway #Support Mirror Universe I.S.S. Prefixes
> @terranempire#7881 said: > Remember when the Federation tried to save the bloodthirsty Klingon Empire in TMP era? Kirk is against it and says "They're animals, don't believe them, don't trust them. LET THEM DIE!" Only for him later to fight his bias and save the Klingons and gain peace with their long term enemy by exposing Admiral Cartwright and the others that want to sabotage it. It's a hopeful future. > > (Image) > > > > Skip ahead to Star Trek 40K Picard: The Federation is speciest and intolerant to Romulans. 15 members dictates to 150 planetary governments that they should TRIBBLE OFF and leave the Romulans to die otherwise they will leave. Is this the writers clever way of saying United Kingdom are racists for leaving the EU... Sounds exactly like something Patrick Stewart would probably write into the script. Federation is EVIL!!!! Supports slavery and doesn't care about helping anyone. > (Spoiler) > > Remember when Trek used to represent humanity trying to better themselves? Peace and exploration of the unknown? Now it just Starship troopers, swearing TRIBBLE YEAH! With gore and implied incest with bad heavy accents. > > > > This coming from someone that likes MU. I like dark sci-fi but I like optimistic fun shows too. I don't think highly of dreg trying to be edgy and cheaply dark to entice young teenage audience jocks.
If we break Undiscovered Country up so that it’s a 10 episode series how optimistic would those first episodes be? We have an admiral who thinks that Starfleet could be disbanded over peace with the Klingons, another that proposes to attack the Klingons while they are weak, Kirk is forced to help over his objections, no one really seems to want to go on this mission (save Spock), Kirk says he’ll never trust them because of the death of his son, a failed dinner party where Kirk alludes to them being like Hitler and culminating in the rather graphic assassination of Gorkon. How optimistic is any of that?
As an aside true peace between the Feds and Klingons didn’t occur until 51 years later when the Enterprise C was destroyed defending a Klingon colony.
As I’ve said in other threads Star Trek: Picard isn’t a series but a 10 hour movie broken up into episodes.
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Hasn't been said, but seems to be implied by how people react.
I think Picard is just putting a big spotlight on how not perfect the Federation is. Yea its better than the alternative, but even the Federation has its issues. And the issues within Starfleet as well...
Its easy to be idealistic, but when faced with politics, idealism kinda falters from sheer weight.
The decision to not help the Romulans was in two parts. One, the rescue fleet was decimated in the Synth attack, and Two, at least 15 worlds threatened to break away from the Federation if they continued to try. While they could have been able to still save as many lives as they could, the decision was political. What's more important? A few thousand lives of a species that had been antagonistic towards you since day one? Or 15 member worlds staying member worlds?
The powers that be chose the latter in this case.
If not for the synth attack, its possible that the politics wouldn't have come into play.
And the Federation compromised their ideals by choosing those 15 member worlds over saving lives. This could explain the current state of the Federation that was shown in the Discovery Season 3 trailer. One compromise after another that continually erodes the Federation until there is only 6 stars remaining according to the flag. If threatening to leave the Federation worked once to get their way, then it will work again and again until they finally leave. Also, there were far more than a few thousand lives at risk.
Yeah, try a few tens of billions there, @rattler2. A "few thousand" isn't a homeworld and surrounding systems, it's a single first-stage colony.
One example of that is the anti-evacuation ultimatum thing people keep talking about here. For comparison, the US government is unlikely to simply cave in to some arbitrary ultimatum by a few states and cancel emergency hurricane relief or whatever to a foreign country, what is much, much more likely to happen is a faction apposed to those efforts snarling things up in the house, senate, or courts to delay action until it is too late for it to do any good. I imagine the Federation would probably be much the same way, maybe even more so, since passive resistance is so often more effective than the Hollywood favorite melodrama of politicians dropping their metaphorical flys and drawing lines in the sand, daring each other to cross.
You know, you bring up a point here. Secession/rebellion/independence is not the option of first resort, there would be all manner of things happening prior to that as tensions grow between the two factions. The US Civil War didn't just suddenly start in 1861, it was set in motion years before that with growing tensions in the decades prior. The War of Independence was result of a lot of things happening in the 1760s and 70s.
So that brings to mind that world building issue. If we are supposed to believe that helping Rommies results in secession, what pre-existing situation was going on to cause that level of tension in the Federation? And why wouldn't this tension still be there? Not only that, but this kind of tension has two sides, so there would have been some opposite reaction by bowing to the demands, which in this case caused the death of a billion Romulans. Where was the outrage at that in the rest of the Federation?
I don't think there is an actual answer, of course, because I'm quite sure the writers didn't think any of this through.
The most obvious solution is that the Federation is significantly more confederal than the United States, more like the European Union where membership is "at-will", relatively speaking. There was a bit in the novels where Andoria seceded for a couple of years so they could get out from under the Federation's ban on genetic engineering in order to save the species from extinction.
And the South had been threatening to secede to get its way on slavery-related topics for so long by 1861 that the threat had actually started to lose its teeth: Lincoln notwithstanding, a lot of people in the North were at the point of saying, "You know what? You want out? You're out. Bye-bye. Don't let the door hit you in the TRIBBLE$. We'll just repeal your stupid Fugitive Slave Act and have done with it."
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
the prequal novel really explains things a fiar bit, if you really care about the details obsessivly, read it. the complaints about world building are a bit odd when you consider Picard is only 5 episodes in.
Let's look at the first 5 episodes of TNG for world building.
These episodes are:
Encounter at Far Point part 1 and 2
the Naked Now
Code of Honour
and The last outpost
> @terranempire#7881 said:
> Remember when the Federation tried to save the bloodthirsty Klingon Empire in TMP era? Kirk is against it and says "They're animals, don't believe them, don't trust them. LET THEM DIE!" Only for him later to fight his bias and save the Klingons and gain peace with their long term enemy by exposing Admiral Cartwright and the others that want to sabotage it. It's a hopeful future.
>
> (Image)
>
>
>
> Skip ahead to Star Trek 40K Picard: The Federation is speciest and intolerant to Romulans. 15 members dictates to 150 planetary governments that they should TRIBBLE OFF and leave the Romulans to die otherwise they will leave. Is this the writers clever way of saying United Kingdom are racists for leaving the EU... Sounds exactly like something Patrick Stewart would probably write into the script. Federation is EVIL!!!! Supports slavery and doesn't care about helping anyone.
> (Spoiler)
>
> Remember when Trek used to represent humanity trying to better themselves? Peace and exploration of the unknown? Now it just Starship troopers, swearing TRIBBLE YEAH! With gore and implied incest with bad heavy accents.
>
>
>
> This coming from someone that likes MU. I like dark sci-fi but I like optimistic fun shows too. I don't think highly of dreg trying to be edgy and cheaply dark to entice young teenage audience jocks.
If we break Undiscovered Country up so that it’s a 10 episode series how optimistic would those first episodes be? We have an admiral who thinks that Starfleet could be disbanded over peace with the Klingons, another that proposes to attack the Klingons while they are weak, Kirk is forced to help over his objections, no one really seems to want to go on this mission (save Spock), Kirk says he’ll never trust them because of the death of his son, a failed dinner party where Kirk alludes to them being like Hitler and culminating in the rather graphic assassination of Gorkon. How optimistic is any of that?
As an aside true peace between the Feds and Klingons didn’t occur until 51 years later when the Enterprise C was destroyed defending a Klingon colony.
As I’ve said in other threads Star Trek: Picard isn’t a series but a 10 hour movie broken up into episodes.
Your point is valid and one I was entertaining until episode 5. I was hoping it would get better, but now after what happened in Murderville, population: Seven, I don't see anything good coming out of this series. It has set the tone and really committed to it. It could still improve, but for me they crossed a line there, and they really can't fix that as far as I see.
I can't wait to see what Naomi Wildman future is in Picard. Voyager had her pursue a career in Starfleet.
In Kurtzman Star Trek: Picard she probably be a prostitute on Freecloud because having a bright future in Trek is the way of the past. It has to be dark and super gritty with a dash of depression.
"Great men are not peacemakers, Great men are conquerors!" - Captain Archer" "When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway #Support Mirror Universe I.S.S. Prefixes
> @valoreah said: > (Quote) > > The Federation chose to make peace and help the Klingons when Praxis exploded. Why treat the Romulans any differently? Also, it was rather clear in Nemesis that Shinzon did not speak for the entirety of the Empire.
We don’t know if any in the federation was against peace but we know several Starfleet officers didn’t want peace. Also the Klingons had Gorkon who wanted peace.
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
> @foxrockssocks said: > (Quote) > > > > Your point is valid and one I was entertaining until episode 5. I was hoping it would get better, but now after what happened in Murderville, population: Seven, I don't see anything good coming out of this series. It has set the tone and really committed to it. It could still improve, but for me they crossed a line there, and they really can't fix that as far as I see.
Episode 5 of Undiscovered Country has two Starfleet Officers beam on to Kronos One and start blasting holes into Klingons, shooting one Klingons arm off, pink blood floating all over the place, finally assassinating Gorkon.
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,734Community Moderator
Yeah, try a few tens of billions there, @rattler2. A "few thousand" isn't a homeworld and surrounding systems, it's a single first-stage colony.
Again... I was low balling the estimate based on I DON'T KNOW HOW MANY SHIPS SURVIVED THE ATTACK! The entire fleet could save millions to billions, but after the attack and the loss of so many ships... its possible that that number was cut dramatically.
Why am I getting called out on an unknown all of a sudden? Can a couple old Magees hold millions? No. Can one large transport hold millions? No.
We do not know how many ships survived, or what class they were either. All we know for a FACT is that the rescue fleet was decimated. We don't know what survived, and in what kind of numbers. So I decided to low ball the estimate as smaller, more maneuverable ships would have had a higher chance of survival than large, slow moving transports.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
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The other choice, of course, would be the Federation compromising their ideals by abandoning the interests of 15 member worlds, and their millions or billions of inhabitants, in order to save the lives of a few thousand beings who had declared themselves enemies of the Federation on several previous occasions (and whose people had recently attempted to kill the famed Captain Picard and destroy Starfleet's flagship - remember, the typical Federation citizen isn't privy to the ins and outs of alien politics, and has no idea who this Shinzon fellow might be or that he's not in fact affiliated with the longstanding leadership of the RSE).
They chose the compromise that made the most sense politically, because that's just how sapient beings are sometimes.
The Federation chose to make peace and help the Klingons when Praxis exploded. Why treat the Romulans any differently? Also, it was rather clear in Nemesis that Shinzon did not speak for the entirety of the Empire.
They didn't treat the Romulans differently. They offered help and they helped. They started resettling people. But than something "unthinkable" happened - the rescue fleet, and the fleet yards devoted to building more ships for the fleet, got blown up by Synths. No equivalent incident happened for the Klingon aid program.
The plan to continue the resettlement effort required using more Synth to help rebuild the lost fleet. Synths that had just gone mad and killed a lot of Federation citizens, and blown up a lot of ships and critical infrastructure. They didn't trust those Synths anymore (imagine the new Synths also going mad and using the rescue fleet to murder Romulans or suicide bomb Federation colonies), so that was no actually an option. And without them, they couldn't rebuild the fleet to continue the rescue effort.
It wasn't just some planets threatening to leave the Federation if they didn't get their way - it was also cold-hard logistical challenges that they couldn't overcome anymore.
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It's too blue. Series 2 has improved somewhat but every bit of light is saturated blue in series 1.
The camera work is awful. Dynamic cameras are fantastic tools and helicopter spins and Dutch angles sell scenes but they don't need to be done all the time, all it does is take away from when they need to be used.
Too much focus on Burnham. Even PIC, advertised as a platform for Picard, spends as much time on characters like Daj or Raffi (I can't spell names I've not seen in subtitles) as it does on JL. Sure, Saru, Pike, Tilly, and Lorca got some work, but Burnham is the lone star and I hate non-ensemble casts.
The Enterprise. I hate the TOS bright colours of it. It's too early. The Cage visuals with the muted blues and blacks actually fits with DSC and every other part of the franchise. The reds and yellows of the TOS version stick out like a sore thumb as every other part of the franchise had a blue, black, and grey Starfleet.
The warp core of the Enterprise. I loathe it just as I loathed the KT one. We've not seen the one from the Disco herself yet but it has the same reactor corridors as the TOS Enterprise so I'd hoped they'd continue that look on the Enterprise.
L'Rells makeup. It's TRIBBLE. So are all the coneheads. If all the Klingons had looked like Kol or T'Kuvma from the start most people wouldn't even have noticed there was a change. Instead we had to suffer through L'Rell being unable to turn around without braining some poor Bekk.
Extending the series out after they've already been plotted. It makes a mess and damages pacing.
Control. Too similar to the Borg.
Backing down when whining fanbois pitch a hissy fit. It's their job to adapt to the show runners vision, not the showrunners job to pander to a overly loud bunch of basement dwellers who will continue to hate anything new out of reflex.
All those bloody small craft. Small craft are a weakness. Star Wars has relatively immobile capital ships so manoeuvrable fighters make sense. Star Trek has manoeuvrable capital ships so doesn't need fighters.
The little hovering robots and holo-comms. They're not actually narrativity needed.
Bleeding nano-bot suits. For the sakes of the dark gods, just remove and carry the bloody helmets! You're not Tony Stark, you're Christopher Pike, act like it.
The return of the sex-segregated uniforms. It was wrong when the KT tried to ape TOS by doing so and even worse with DSC now doing so. Sex-segregated uniforms will be long-extinct by the real 2250s (providing we survive that long) and it's no longer the 60s now.
No tie-ins to the KT. It's the prime equivalent of the KT, where's Alexander Marcus and his part in the Klingon War? Where's Krell and his band of nutters? Where's Admiral Robau?
Keeping the Emperor around. She's a gods-damn génocidaire. You don't give them a badge and welcome them to Starfleet, she's not a Marquis where their only reason to fight was to stop space-TRIBBLE nicking their land. She's a person who has directly ordered the systematic murder of planetary populations. You put a phaser to her head and vapourise. Of all characters in Star Trek she's undoubtedly the worst because she's escaped her crimes. Dukat and the Borg Queen died for their crimes eventually, Kurtzman or some other brain dead moron seems to think you can or should redeem or make sympathetic génocidaires. That is flat out wrong.
PIC
It's too late after NEM. It needed to be closer. I wanted a proper post-DS9 series with all the implications thereof.
Too much emphasis on Robot the Sidekick. I never cared about him and I don't care about Androids in general. Now the Doctor and holograms, sure, that's actually interesting.
Not enough 7. She was the only feature of VGR other than The Doctor that was worth slogging through that hack-written TNG rip off.
Not enough Garak.
No mention of Spock and Nero. They're the whole reason for PIC in the first place, the fall out of 09.
I really wanted to see Hugh, Icheb, Seven, and Picard on-screen at once. EB anonymous type thing.
No godsdamn Sovereign. I don't give a toss about the Galaxy. I despise it almost as much as the E*******r and Intrepid. I want too see the sexy swooping lines of the best Starship in science fiction.
The 2380s uniforms. So the 70s uniforms were dumped after a decade then the 80s ones were dumped after a decade? The FC style uniforms are the second best in Trek (after the TOS film ones) and (like the Sovereign) deserve far more exposure.
Talking of the Sovereign. Where are all the new ships? Seeing Magee classes in PIC is excusable in much the same way seeing Mirandas in TNG was. But I still don't like it. I love the DS9 era ships (except the Intrepid obviously) I want to see them.
Borg. I don't care for them. They're a less interesting Cyberman knock-off. Though I do appreciate they've actually played up the body horror aspect of them here.
Not enough hot Irish Romulans. I demand a spin-off.
JL.
Picard himself. I love SPS as an actor and a person, but PIC makes me like the character. Picard is a grumpy arsehole who would happily let people die rather than interfere and treats the Prime Directive like a religion. The TNG films and PIC actually turn him into a cross between early Sisko and Old Kirk which is a shame because I like this hybrid but couldn't care less about Picard.
Seven is apparently no longer with Chakotay which is a shame because theyyyyyy.... yawn...
Sorry. I couldn't even get through a thought about Treebeard without nodding off. Though it did give us 7 being one of the few characters who actually knows how to deal with monsters when she vapourised her ex. Pike would probably made Bedezal Chief Medical Officer.
I won't mention the supposed 'grimdark' thing people keep harping on about because the supposed 'utopia' often quoted never existed.
ENT was a pioneer under siege story, TOS/TAS was a western where Kirk was the law, the TOS films were space being dangerous and Starfleet being incompetent, TNG (after the insipid Roddenberry-ness of the first 3 series) was basically corruption the series, as everybody who wasn't onboard the D was a laurel-sitting moron just waiting for a Wolf 359, DS9 (and the TNG films) was the only show to recognise the Utopia myth was a lie and deconstruct it semi-realistically, and VGR was bloody awful.
DSC accurately captures the mood of TOS through modern storytelling and PIC is a logical conclusion to the world post-DS9 where the rot has been exposed rather than painted over with saccharin as in TNG.
DSC has to show a non-perfect world because TOS doesn't show one. PIC has to or else how could it get better?
Also, they shows are more modern in how they portray the sci-fi worlds but they aren't actually darker. As a society, we've matured more to the point we require actual 3D depth rather than cardboard cutouts in our plots. Silly shadow tricks don't scare us, so more visceral horror is needed to get across the same point. The exploding queen in 'Conspiracy' might have scared the pants off of some censors in the 90s but wouldn't make a child pause nowadays. An eyeball removal will make current censors TRIBBLE themselves but it's not more horrifying, it's simply more realistically done thanks to our more advanced effects teams.
DSC might be at war but the war itself doesn't actually top the Dominion War in stakes or visuals. It's actually over quicker and with less effect on the characters. Even VGR was darker than DSC and that was deliberately gimped by the child-like writing team to clone TNG.
Edit: Scratch that, apparently I have mentioned the supposed 'grimdark' thing people keep harping on about...
Post edited by artan42 on
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
[*] No tie-ins to the KT. It's the prime equivalent of the KT, where's Alexander Marcus and his part in the Klingon War? Where's Krell and his band of nutters? Where's Admiral Robau?
Maybe Marcus got offed by Control or running a Starbase somewhere.
Krell is still on Altamid brooding.
Probably running a Starbase somewhere.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
And the Federation compromised their ideals by choosing those 15 member worlds over saving lives. This could explain the current state of the Federation that was shown in the Discovery Season 3 trailer. One compromise after another that continually erodes the Federation until there is only 6 stars remaining according to the flag. If threatening to leave the Federation worked once to get their way, then it will work again and again until they finally leave. Also, there were far more than a few thousand lives at risk.
^^^
Um..the Federation ALREADY did such a "compromise" before during TNG's run - the Federation/Cardassian Peace Treaty where they basically gave Federation Colonies to the Cardassians and said, "Hey Federation citizens on these worlds, move or become Cardassian citizens, and if you stay, you're on your own..."
^^^
Plus there were a number of TNG episodes where Picard was ENFORCING said treaty because "Peace above all else..."
Funny how he only gets outraged and resigns when one of his 'Picard Crusade because life is life' projects get shut down. Some of those colonies had been there for centuries and people dies to make them work but hey, along comes Picard with: "Hey time to move.."; and he's 100% complicit himself.
My point: Nothing is so black and white - and if anything STP is 100% consistent in displaying one major aspect of the Jean Luc Picard character - He's a MAJOR hypocrite and thinks WAY too highly of both himself and his 'absolute morality'.
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Without proper worldbuilding, on the writing end it is all too easy to start slinging very iffy and implausible plot points around (VOY had a lot of the same problem btw) and solving things by contrived means instead of things that actually make sense, and sense like that happens most when characters, factions, and history are reasonably fleshed out. With good worldbuilding a setting and cast often take on a life of their own and practically write themselves.
Voyager's issue was "too many cooks in the kitchen". Too many writers with their own ideas for where to take the characters/ Main reason why Janeway's all over the place. One episode she's by the book, the next she's Kirk level Cowboy.
That chaos was caused by not doing proper worldbuilding (or rebuilding) in the first place (and worldbuilding does include important characters). The slush readers depend on the in-house writers or creators doing proper worldbuilding to know what fits and what does not. Voyager (like TNG) was pitched as a very different series than it came to be once shooting started, and no one bothered to solidify the new "world" after the old show concept was discarded.
the prequal novel really explains things a fiar bit, if you really care about the details obsessivly, read it. the complaints about world building are a bit odd when you consider Picard is only 5 episodes in.
Let's look at the first 5 episodes of TNG for world building.
These episodes are:
Encounter at Far Point part 1 and 2
the Naked Now
Code of Honour
and The last outpost
How much world building was done there?
TNG had a lot of startup problems, including having its whole original premise thrown out shortly before filming started and then had to scramble and catch up with their worldbuilding well after they should have had it nailed down, so that first season is a prime example of insufficient worldbuilding. It is the same thing that later happened to Voyager (though not to quite the same degree), after VOY already had the pilot in the can, which is why it featured things like the torpedo count that never went anywhere after that.
PIC has the advantage of a tremendous amount of groundwork already having been laid out in TNG and the movies, that should have gone a long way to free the writers to think out the details of the plot in PIC but it sounds like they took an action-movie like approach and figured the viewers would be too wowed by the visuals or whatever to think about the holes in their metaplot.
Also, "only five episodes" is nothing to sneeze at in a series that only has ten per season. With something that is essentially a miniseries plus two episodes that kind of sloppiness should not happen.
Yeah, try a few tens of billions there, @rattler2. A "few thousand" isn't a homeworld and surrounding systems, it's a single first-stage colony.
Again... I was low balling the estimate based on I DON'T KNOW HOW MANY SHIPS SURVIVED THE ATTACK! The entire fleet could save millions to billions, but after the attack and the loss of so many ships... its possible that that number was cut dramatically.
Why am I getting called out on an unknown all of a sudden? Can a couple old Magees hold millions? No. Can one large transport hold millions? No.
We do not know how many ships survived, or what class they were either. All we know for a FACT is that the rescue fleet was decimated. We don't know what survived, and in what kind of numbers. So I decided to low ball the estimate as smaller, more maneuverable ships would have had a higher chance of survival than large, slow moving transports.
They could evacuate a lot of people on normal fleet ships if they wanted to. For example a Galaxy class (which they apparently had a lot more than a dozen of considering what they show of them in the Dominion war) can hold 15,000 people in a pinch (the normal crew including dependents is around a thousand) which means if they could get ten of the things there in time they could have saved 140,000 with no preparation time at all. The ships in TNG are often huge.
I just don't see the world building complaints a lot of them seem thin to me, stuff like "WHY ISN'T THIS EXPLICTLY SPELLED OUT FOR ME?" World building is important but you never need extranous details if you mention something you should be ready for it to be important to your story for some reason Chekov's gun isn't a phaser pistol
> @captainbrian11 said: > I just don't see the world building complaints a lot of them seem thin to me, stuff like "WHY ISN'T THIS EXPLICTLY SPELLED OUT FOR ME?" World building is important but you never need extranous details if you mention something you should be ready for it to be important to your story for some reason Chekov's gun isn't a phaser pistol
Especially when every episode has started with a flash back to fill us in on what happened
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
> @captainbrian11 said:
> I just don't see the world building complaints a lot of them seem thin to me, stuff like "WHY ISN'T THIS EXPLICTLY SPELLED OUT FOR ME?" World building is important but you never need extranous details if you mention something you should be ready for it to be important to your story for some reason Chekov's gun isn't a phaser pistol
Especially when every episode has started with a flash back to fill us in on what happened
exactly. the world building is happening as the series progresses. as normal for a series.
[*] No tie-ins to the KT. It's the prime equivalent of the KT, where's Alexander Marcus and his part in the Klingon War? Where's Krell and his band of nutters? Where's Admiral Robau?
Maybe Marcus got offed by Control or running a Starbase somewhere.
Krell is still on Altamid brooding.
Probably running a Starbase somewhere.
Yeah, but I want actual answers. I'd even take a comic series. The KT is the first alternate timeline to last a series and not just an episode and takes place alongside a currently airing TV show to boot. It's wasted potential for both not to have some sort of link.
We wasted a whole arc in the long played out and lifeless Mirror Universe in DSC, that would have been so much better had they ended up in the KT.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
> @artan42 said: > (Quote) > > Yeah, but I want actual answers. I'd even take a comic series. The KT is the first alternate timeline to last a series and not just an episode and takes place alongside a currently airing TV show to boot. It's wasted potential for both not to have some sort of link. > We wasted a whole arc in the long played out and lifeless Mirror Universe in DSC, that would have been so much better had they ended up in the KT.
I think CBS is gonna wait to see what Noah Hawley has planned for his Star Trek movie. I’ve seen reports that this is why no one can use the refit Konnie-A
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
> captainbrian11 said:
> I just don't see the world building complaints a lot of them seem thin to me, stuff like "WHY ISN'T THIS EXPLICTLY SPELLED OUT FOR ME?" World building is important but you never need extranous details if you mention something you should be ready for it to be important to your story for some reason Chekov's gun isn't a phaser pistol
Especially when every episode has started with a flash back to fill us in on what happened
Some shows are so bad with the weekly flashback that there is no reason to watch the show. At least, those shows are not as bad as the Too Many Cooks TV show.
The lack of Federation starships in Picard and the whole Starfleet being infiltrated routine
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
Without proper worldbuilding, on the writing end it is all too easy to start slinging very iffy and implausible plot points around (VOY had a lot of the same problem btw) and solving things by contrived means instead of things that actually make sense, and sense like that happens most when characters, factions, and history are reasonably fleshed out. With good worldbuilding a setting and cast often take on a life of their own and practically write themselves.
Voyager's issue was "too many cooks in the kitchen". Too many writers with their own ideas for where to take the characters/ Main reason why Janeway's all over the place. One episode she's by the book, the next she's Kirk level Cowboy.
That chaos was caused by not doing proper worldbuilding (or rebuilding) in the first place (and worldbuilding does include important characters). The slush readers depend on the in-house writers or creators doing proper worldbuilding to know what fits and what does not. Voyager (like TNG) was pitched as a very different series than it came to be once shooting started, and no one bothered to solidify the new "world" after the old show concept was discarded.
the prequal novel really explains things a fiar bit, if you really care about the details obsessivly, read it. the complaints about world building are a bit odd when you consider Picard is only 5 episodes in.
Let's look at the first 5 episodes of TNG for world building.
These episodes are:
Encounter at Far Point part 1 and 2
the Naked Now
Code of Honour
and The last outpost
How much world building was done there?
TNG had a lot of startup problems, including having its whole original premise thrown out shortly before filming started and then had to scramble and catch up with their worldbuilding well after they should have had it nailed down, so that first season is a prime example of insufficient worldbuilding. It is the same thing that later happened to Voyager (though not to quite the same degree), after VOY already had the pilot in the can, which is why it featured things like the torpedo count that never went anywhere after that.
PIC has the advantage of a tremendous amount of groundwork already having been laid out in TNG and the movies, that should have gone a long way to free the writers to think out the details of the plot in PIC but it sounds like they took an action-movie like approach and figured the viewers would be too wowed by the visuals or whatever to think about the holes in their metaplot.
Also, "only five episodes" is nothing to sneeze at in a series that only has ten per season. With something that is essentially a miniseries plus two episodes that kind of sloppiness should not happen.
Yeah, try a few tens of billions there, @rattler2. A "few thousand" isn't a homeworld and surrounding systems, it's a single first-stage colony.
Again... I was low balling the estimate based on I DON'T KNOW HOW MANY SHIPS SURVIVED THE ATTACK! The entire fleet could save millions to billions, but after the attack and the loss of so many ships... its possible that that number was cut dramatically.
Why am I getting called out on an unknown all of a sudden? Can a couple old Magees hold millions? No. Can one large transport hold millions? No.
We do not know how many ships survived, or what class they were either. All we know for a FACT is that the rescue fleet was decimated. We don't know what survived, and in what kind of numbers. So I decided to low ball the estimate as smaller, more maneuverable ships would have had a higher chance of survival than large, slow moving transports.
They could evacuate a lot of people on normal fleet ships if they wanted to. For example a Galaxy class (which they apparently had a lot more than a dozen of considering what they show of them in the Dominion war) can hold 15,000 people in a pinch (the normal crew including dependents is around a thousand) which means if they could get ten of the things there in time they could have saved 140,000 with no preparation time at all. The ships in TNG are often huge.
But these ships are out there doing their job for the Federation. Ferrying freight, medical supplies, colonists, specialists. They are out there securing the Federation borders and protecting Federation worlds. They are out there doing multi-year exploration mission, far away from Romulan or Federation territory.
And where do these ships drop their passengers? Just beam them down on the nearest Class M planet with nothing but their clothes and ancestral sword on their back isn't going to do. 10 Galaxy Class ships might be able to lift of 150,000 people, but how long will it actually take to prepare their new settlement or integrate them in an existing one?
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
I think CBS is gonna wait to see what Noah Hawley has planned for his Star Trek movie. I’ve seen reports that this is why no one can use the refit Konnie-A
That would make a great deal of sense, and would explain why the Anniversary ship bundle got the 'Beyond' skin Konnie, but not the KT Enterprise-A skin.
I don’t think we’re gonna see Federation ships in Picard. They seem to be operating beyond Federation space.
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
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And something Picard has to live with, and they're showing how he feels about it too. He's not happy with himself either. He tried everything, bet everything, and lost.
Voyager's issue was "too many cooks in the kitchen". Too many writers with their own ideas for where to take the characters/ Main reason why Janeway's all over the place. One episode she's by the book, the next she's Kirk level Cowboy.
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"When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway
#Support Mirror Universe I.S.S. Prefixes
You know, you bring up a point here. Secession/rebellion/independence is not the option of first resort, there would be all manner of things happening prior to that as tensions grow between the two factions. The US Civil War didn't just suddenly start in 1861, it was set in motion years before that with growing tensions in the decades prior. The War of Independence was result of a lot of things happening in the 1760s and 70s.
So that brings to mind that world building issue. If we are supposed to believe that helping Rommies results in secession, what pre-existing situation was going on to cause that level of tension in the Federation? And why wouldn't this tension still be there? Not only that, but this kind of tension has two sides, so there would have been some opposite reaction by bowing to the demands, which in this case caused the death of a billion Romulans. Where was the outrage at that in the rest of the Federation?
I don't think there is an actual answer, of course, because I'm quite sure the writers didn't think any of this through.
I guess your forgetting all the times when he went off with his crew ignoring orders and telling the admirals in charge to go to hell. Kirk did it, Picard did it, Janeway did it, Sisko did it and Archer did it.
He tried everything my TRIBBLE. He resigned. That isn't trying... that is putting noose around your neck and giving up. He never exhausted all his options. He could have gone on quest for assistance from the Klingons. Instead we got a dark dystopia poor writing copy of Undiscovered Country without any of the optimism.
"When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway
#Support Mirror Universe I.S.S. Prefixes
"When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway
#Support Mirror Universe I.S.S. Prefixes
> Remember when the Federation tried to save the bloodthirsty Klingon Empire in TMP era? Kirk is against it and says "They're animals, don't believe them, don't trust them. LET THEM DIE!" Only for him later to fight his bias and save the Klingons and gain peace with their long term enemy by exposing Admiral Cartwright and the others that want to sabotage it. It's a hopeful future.
>
> (Image)
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>
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> Skip ahead to Star Trek 40K Picard: The Federation is speciest and intolerant to Romulans. 15 members dictates to 150 planetary governments that they should TRIBBLE OFF and leave the Romulans to die otherwise they will leave. Is this the writers clever way of saying United Kingdom are racists for leaving the EU... Sounds exactly like something Patrick Stewart would probably write into the script. Federation is EVIL!!!! Supports slavery and doesn't care about helping anyone.
> (Spoiler)
>
> Remember when Trek used to represent humanity trying to better themselves? Peace and exploration of the unknown? Now it just Starship troopers, swearing TRIBBLE YEAH! With gore and implied incest with bad heavy accents.
>
>
>
> This coming from someone that likes MU. I like dark sci-fi but I like optimistic fun shows too. I don't think highly of dreg trying to be edgy and cheaply dark to entice young teenage audience jocks.
If we break Undiscovered Country up so that it’s a 10 episode series how optimistic would those first episodes be? We have an admiral who thinks that Starfleet could be disbanded over peace with the Klingons, another that proposes to attack the Klingons while they are weak, Kirk is forced to help over his objections, no one really seems to want to go on this mission (save Spock), Kirk says he’ll never trust them because of the death of his son, a failed dinner party where Kirk alludes to them being like Hitler and culminating in the rather graphic assassination of Gorkon. How optimistic is any of that?
As an aside true peace between the Feds and Klingons didn’t occur until 51 years later when the Enterprise C was destroyed defending a Klingon colony.
As I’ve said in other threads Star Trek: Picard isn’t a series but a 10 hour movie broken up into episodes.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
The most obvious solution is that the Federation is significantly more confederal than the United States, more like the European Union where membership is "at-will", relatively speaking. There was a bit in the novels where Andoria seceded for a couple of years so they could get out from under the Federation's ban on genetic engineering in order to save the species from extinction.
And the South had been threatening to secede to get its way on slavery-related topics for so long by 1861 that the threat had actually started to lose its teeth: Lincoln notwithstanding, a lot of people in the North were at the point of saying, "You know what? You want out? You're out. Bye-bye. Don't let the door hit you in the TRIBBLE$. We'll just repeal your stupid Fugitive Slave Act and have done with it."
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Let's look at the first 5 episodes of TNG for world building.
These episodes are:
Encounter at Far Point part 1 and 2
the Naked Now
Code of Honour
and The last outpost
How much world building was done there?
Your point is valid and one I was entertaining until episode 5. I was hoping it would get better, but now after what happened in Murderville, population: Seven, I don't see anything good coming out of this series. It has set the tone and really committed to it. It could still improve, but for me they crossed a line there, and they really can't fix that as far as I see.
In Kurtzman Star Trek: Picard she probably be a prostitute on Freecloud because having a bright future in Trek is the way of the past. It has to be dark and super gritty with a dash of depression.
"When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway
#Support Mirror Universe I.S.S. Prefixes
> (Quote)
>
> The Federation chose to make peace and help the Klingons when Praxis exploded. Why treat the Romulans any differently? Also, it was rather clear in Nemesis that Shinzon did not speak for the entirety of the Empire.
We don’t know if any in the federation was against peace but we know several Starfleet officers didn’t want peace.
Also the Klingons had Gorkon who wanted peace.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
> (Quote)
>
>
>
> Your point is valid and one I was entertaining until episode 5. I was hoping it would get better, but now after what happened in Murderville, population: Seven, I don't see anything good coming out of this series. It has set the tone and really committed to it. It could still improve, but for me they crossed a line there, and they really can't fix that as far as I see.
Episode 5 of Undiscovered Country has two Starfleet Officers beam on to Kronos One and start blasting holes into Klingons, shooting one Klingons arm off, pink blood floating all over the place, finally assassinating Gorkon.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Again... I was low balling the estimate based on I DON'T KNOW HOW MANY SHIPS SURVIVED THE ATTACK! The entire fleet could save millions to billions, but after the attack and the loss of so many ships... its possible that that number was cut dramatically.
Why am I getting called out on an unknown all of a sudden? Can a couple old Magees hold millions? No. Can one large transport hold millions? No.
We do not know how many ships survived, or what class they were either. All we know for a FACT is that the rescue fleet was decimated. We don't know what survived, and in what kind of numbers. So I decided to low ball the estimate as smaller, more maneuverable ships would have had a higher chance of survival than large, slow moving transports.
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They didn't treat the Romulans differently. They offered help and they helped. They started resettling people. But than something "unthinkable" happened - the rescue fleet, and the fleet yards devoted to building more ships for the fleet, got blown up by Synths. No equivalent incident happened for the Klingon aid program.
The plan to continue the resettlement effort required using more Synth to help rebuild the lost fleet. Synths that had just gone mad and killed a lot of Federation citizens, and blown up a lot of ships and critical infrastructure. They didn't trust those Synths anymore (imagine the new Synths also going mad and using the rescue fleet to murder Romulans or suicide bomb Federation colonies), so that was no actually an option. And without them, they couldn't rebuild the fleet to continue the rescue effort.
It wasn't just some planets threatening to leave the Federation if they didn't get their way - it was also cold-hard logistical challenges that they couldn't overcome anymore.
PIC
I won't mention the supposed 'grimdark' thing people keep harping on about because the supposed 'utopia' often quoted never existed.
ENT was a pioneer under siege story, TOS/TAS was a western where Kirk was the law, the TOS films were space being dangerous and Starfleet being incompetent, TNG (after the insipid Roddenberry-ness of the first 3 series) was basically corruption the series, as everybody who wasn't onboard the D was a laurel-sitting moron just waiting for a Wolf 359, DS9 (and the TNG films) was the only show to recognise the Utopia myth was a lie and deconstruct it semi-realistically, and VGR was bloody awful.
DSC accurately captures the mood of TOS through modern storytelling and PIC is a logical conclusion to the world post-DS9 where the rot has been exposed rather than painted over with saccharin as in TNG.
DSC has to show a non-perfect world because TOS doesn't show one. PIC has to or else how could it get better?
Also, they shows are more modern in how they portray the sci-fi worlds but they aren't actually darker. As a society, we've matured more to the point we require actual 3D depth rather than cardboard cutouts in our plots. Silly shadow tricks don't scare us, so more visceral horror is needed to get across the same point. The exploding queen in 'Conspiracy' might have scared the pants off of some censors in the 90s but wouldn't make a child pause nowadays. An eyeball removal will make current censors TRIBBLE themselves but it's not more horrifying, it's simply more realistically done thanks to our more advanced effects teams.
DSC might be at war but the war itself doesn't actually top the Dominion War in stakes or visuals. It's actually over quicker and with less effect on the characters. Even VGR was darker than DSC and that was deliberately gimped by the child-like writing team to clone TNG.
Edit: Scratch that, apparently I have mentioned the supposed 'grimdark' thing people keep harping on about...
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Maybe Marcus got offed by Control or running a Starbase somewhere.
Krell is still on Altamid brooding.
Probably running a Starbase somewhere.
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Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Um..the Federation ALREADY did such a "compromise" before during TNG's run - the Federation/Cardassian Peace Treaty where they basically gave Federation Colonies to the Cardassians and said, "Hey Federation citizens on these worlds, move or become Cardassian citizens, and if you stay, you're on your own..."
^^^
Plus there were a number of TNG episodes where Picard was ENFORCING said treaty because "Peace above all else..."
Funny how he only gets outraged and resigns when one of his 'Picard Crusade because life is life' projects get shut down. Some of those colonies had been there for centuries and people dies to make them work but hey, along comes Picard with: "Hey time to move.."; and he's 100% complicit himself.
My point: Nothing is so black and white - and if anything STP is 100% consistent in displaying one major aspect of the Jean Luc Picard character - He's a MAJOR hypocrite and thinks WAY too highly of both himself and his 'absolute morality'.
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
That chaos was caused by not doing proper worldbuilding (or rebuilding) in the first place (and worldbuilding does include important characters). The slush readers depend on the in-house writers or creators doing proper worldbuilding to know what fits and what does not. Voyager (like TNG) was pitched as a very different series than it came to be once shooting started, and no one bothered to solidify the new "world" after the old show concept was discarded.
TNG had a lot of startup problems, including having its whole original premise thrown out shortly before filming started and then had to scramble and catch up with their worldbuilding well after they should have had it nailed down, so that first season is a prime example of insufficient worldbuilding. It is the same thing that later happened to Voyager (though not to quite the same degree), after VOY already had the pilot in the can, which is why it featured things like the torpedo count that never went anywhere after that.
PIC has the advantage of a tremendous amount of groundwork already having been laid out in TNG and the movies, that should have gone a long way to free the writers to think out the details of the plot in PIC but it sounds like they took an action-movie like approach and figured the viewers would be too wowed by the visuals or whatever to think about the holes in their metaplot.
Also, "only five episodes" is nothing to sneeze at in a series that only has ten per season. With something that is essentially a miniseries plus two episodes that kind of sloppiness should not happen.
They could evacuate a lot of people on normal fleet ships if they wanted to. For example a Galaxy class (which they apparently had a lot more than a dozen of considering what they show of them in the Dominion war) can hold 15,000 people in a pinch (the normal crew including dependents is around a thousand) which means if they could get ten of the things there in time they could have saved 140,000 with no preparation time at all. The ships in TNG are often huge.
> I just don't see the world building complaints a lot of them seem thin to me, stuff like "WHY ISN'T THIS EXPLICTLY SPELLED OUT FOR ME?" World building is important but you never need extranous details if you mention something you should be ready for it to be important to your story for some reason Chekov's gun isn't a phaser pistol
Especially when every episode has started with a flash back to fill us in on what happened
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
exactly. the world building is happening as the series progresses. as normal for a series.
Yeah, but I want actual answers. I'd even take a comic series. The KT is the first alternate timeline to last a series and not just an episode and takes place alongside a currently airing TV show to boot. It's wasted potential for both not to have some sort of link.
We wasted a whole arc in the long played out and lifeless Mirror Universe in DSC, that would have been so much better had they ended up in the KT.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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> (Quote)
>
> Yeah, but I want actual answers. I'd even take a comic series. The KT is the first alternate timeline to last a series and not just an episode and takes place alongside a currently airing TV show to boot. It's wasted potential for both not to have some sort of link.
> We wasted a whole arc in the long played out and lifeless Mirror Universe in DSC, that would have been so much better had they ended up in the KT.
I think CBS is gonna wait to see what Noah Hawley has planned for his Star Trek movie. I’ve seen reports that this is why no one can use the refit Konnie-A
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Some shows are so bad with the weekly flashback that there is no reason to watch the show. At least, those shows are not as bad as the Too Many Cooks TV show.
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
But these ships are out there doing their job for the Federation. Ferrying freight, medical supplies, colonists, specialists. They are out there securing the Federation borders and protecting Federation worlds. They are out there doing multi-year exploration mission, far away from Romulan or Federation territory.
And where do these ships drop their passengers? Just beam them down on the nearest Class M planet with nothing but their clothes and ancestral sword on their back isn't going to do. 10 Galaxy Class ships might be able to lift of 150,000 people, but how long will it actually take to prepare their new settlement or integrate them in an existing one?
I don’t think we’re gonna see Federation ships in Picard. They seem to be operating beyond Federation space.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.