Star Trek Picard. - USS Stargazer

jake477 · February 2020

I have given some thought on what I would like to see in Star Trek Picard. I would love it if this show brought back the USS Stargazer. We never get to see the Constellation Class in action even in the background. This ship was Picard's first Command and it would be extremely satisfying to see her be back in action under Picard. As Scotty said it best, you never forget your first ship. Plus I would imagine it would be very easy to acquire considering by now almost all of her class have been wasting away in shipyards for years. I looked over her specs and the Stargazer could be a formidable ship if she was given the TLC she needs. Top speed of warp nine, multiple phaser and torpedo installations, science labs among others. About the size of USS Voyager with 15 Decks, possibly the Constellation was the Intrepid Class of her era because both share similarities to each other with their mission profiles. It would also give a nodd to Star Trek III where Kirk runs off with the Enterprise to find Spock, kind of like Picard going to the stars to find Data's second daughter. If Kirk gets his Enterprise then Picard should get his Stargazer. Then you could sprinkle in jokes about how Cmdr. Riker had to command the USS Hathaway in TNG like "How did you do it Number 1?", or "Where the hell is Worf when I need him" etc.

It would be fun it see it come full circle. Picard went from the Flagship of the Fleet in the Enterprise E to.......Starfleet's Redheaded Step-Child.

phoenixc · February 2020

It is rather unlikely that Picard could get anywhere near the Stargazer unless Starfleet stripped that class down and sold them to the civilian sector, and from the looks of the storage yard the Federation keeps everything instead of selling it. There are even some of the McQuarrie ships of the type the Crossfield vaguely resembles in it along with a prototype version of the Excelsior (the four-nacelle "tennis racket" one) and those are obscure TOS era ships.

Personally, I would rather they avoid bringing Stargazer back since I do not trust the current writers to be able to handle it without turning it into a sort of awkward nostalgia fan service with little or nothing to contribute to the story itself.

The Constellation class was almost the total opposite of the Intrepid class actually. The Constellation class was designed for long range, long deployment mapping and research missions, while the Intrepid class mission design was as a short-deployment ultra fast torpedo destroyer. In fact it was stated by official sources during the runup to the Voyager series that it was the Starfleet equivalent of today's Arleigh Burke-class destroyer and part of the tension was that of all the Federation ship classes to be dropped off so far away the Intrepid was probably the worst one since it had a greater dependence on maintenance and supply support than usual.

It is kind of like comparing the AK-47, which according to Kalashnikov himself was designed extra tough for people who thought "cleaning your weapon" meant dunking it in a river and shaking it till all the mud and blood washed off, to the M-16 which is a high performance precision piece notoriously finicky about proper maintenance to remain operational.

Stargazer's engines would have been perfectly happy with the rotgut the Bussards scoop up for example, instead of the draconian fuel saving measures Voyager was forced to take because they had to mix the rotgut with the good stuff in their tanks in order for the engines to use it until they came up with some other way to get or make premium grade fuel. Neelix and his hydroponics would not have been needed and Jayneway would have had her coffee with no interruption if they were in a Constellation since they would have had plenty of power for the replicators.

markhawkman · February 2020

phoenixc#0738 wrote: »

It is kind of like comparing the AK-47, which according to Kalashnikov himself was designed extra tough for people who thought "cleaning your weapon" meant dunking it in a river and shaking it till all the mud and blood washed off, to the M-16 which is a high performance precision piece notoriously finicky about proper maintenance to remain operational.

Yeah Kalashnikov was a WW2 vet and had a lot of practical experience with how infantry grunts actually treat weapons as compared to how the makers of weapons want them to be treated. The M-16 was designed by people who figured that better training would fix that problem.

Seriously, M-16s will jam if you mag dump too many mags in a row. Sure, the number is over a dozen, but it's a problem.

angrytarg · February 2020

> @phoenixc#0738 said:
(...) while the Intrepid class mission design was as a short-deployment ultra fast torpedo destroyer. (...)

I think you are confusing the Intrepid with the Defiant (or rather it's Pathfinder concept). Nothing indicates the Intrepid is anything like a 'ultra fast torpedo destroyer'. It's an exploration vessel, basically a scaled down Galaxy. I don't know where people get the idea from the Intrepid was some tactical craft, it had sophisticated research labs, holodecks for crew comfort, a planetary survey shuttle, landing capability (the Galaxy's saucer was supposed to land take off on and from planets, the landing gear just didn"t make it on the final filming model according to the starship magazine) and the technical manual states that Intrepid/Voyager is not a warship on one of the first pages.

artan42 · February 2020

angrytarg wrote: »

I don't know where people get the idea from the Intrepid was some tactical craft

Two things I imagine. The fact it was sent after the Marquis and that it survived the Delta Quadrant.

Obviously both things ignore the fact that it was only sent after the Marquis because the original plan was to have the Marquis/Starfleet conflict as the driving force of the show and Starfleet sends any ship to do anything (like the family filled Saratoga to Wolf 359) and also that the Voyager was the hero ship and would have survived the DQ even if it had been an Oberth.

Oh, and possibly a massive craptonne of fanfiction from non-canon magazines or encyclopaedias.

angrytarg · February 2020

I suspect the latter @artan42. When you look at inofficial and fanon material, people just gush on about the military specs of Starfleet ships as if it was a Navy show. Granted it was fast - Voyager was just comissioned (not even fully ready I believe) and had the most advanced engines, making it a good choice to chase after the Marquis.

@phoenixc now that I'm on my computer, have a page from the show's writer's guide, aka the Technical Manual:

Note that yes, Sterfleet ships are all armed and well shielded and they do all serve a combat purpose. But that is not their mission profile or main focus. The Galaxy class, with all it's families on board, the luxurious quarters and tennis courts and the like, is a beast of a steamrolling battleship in combat as repeatedly pointed out by alien guests on board the Enterprise. That is because those ships need to be tough and have a bite because their mission is to operate alone, far from home. Even the Intrepid was made to undertake three-year missions without resupply - that is nothing like a fast interceptor, it's a mid to long range Explorer.

artan42 · February 2020

angrytarg wrote: »

I suspect the latter @artan42. When you look at inofficial and fanon material, people just gush on about the military specs of Starfleet ships as if it was a Navy show.

I'd imagine it is more fun inventing new fancy names for impressive kill-o-zap guns than it is sensor suites or deflector modulators.

skhc · February 2020

The Stargazer wasn't a new ship by the time Picard took command in the 2330s, and definitely wouldn't have been state of the art when it was abandoned in 2355.

Repairing and upgrading it when it was recovered probably wouldn't have been worth Starfleet's time and anything useful (like it's still functioning torpedoes, and any anti-matter or dilithium) would've likely been removed. Plus the relative absence of Constellations from the service in the 2360s and 2370s compared to it's contemporaries the Excelsior & Miranda suggest that the Constellation is a less suitable spaceframe for the most up to date 24th century technologies. By 2399, assuming the Stargazer even exists anymore, it's a stripped out hulk in a surplus yard that's possibly over 100 years old and couldn't be made spaceworthy and relevant except by a dedicated team of engineers.

jake477 · February 2020

The USS Victory was a Constellation Class that served in the Dominion War....that is right. The Constellation went up against the Jem'Hadar, granted she was lost with all hands but you seriously have to have a brass set to take something like the Constellation against the Dominion. Personally I would rather take the Enterprise Refit against the bug ships rather then the Stargazer, at least you'll get blown up in style. Shows how much Starfleet was scrapping the bottom of the barrel for ships.

Regardless I thought in terms of Picard being a rogue, the Stargazer would have added more character and depth to the overall story consider it was his first command, sure its a piece of hot garbage but so to is Han Solo's Millennium Falcon.

phoenixc#0738 wrote: »

It is rather unlikely that Picard could get anywhere near the Stargazer unless Starfleet stripped that class down and sold them to the civilian sector, and from the looks of the storage yard the Federation keeps everything instead of selling it. There are even some of the McQuarrie ships of the type the Crossfield vaguely resembles in it along with a prototype version of the Excelsior (the four-nacelle "tennis racket" one) and those are obscure TOS era ships.

Personally, I would rather they avoid bringing Stargazer back since I do not trust the current writers to be able to handle it without turning it into a sort of awkward nostalgia fan service with little or nothing to contribute to the story itself.

The Constellation class was almost the total opposite of the Intrepid class actually. The Constellation class was designed for long range, long deployment mapping and research missions, while the Intrepid class mission design was as a short-deployment ultra fast torpedo destroyer. In fact it was stated by official sources during the runup to the Voyager series that it was the Starfleet equivalent of today's Arleigh Burke-class destroyer and part of the tension was that of all the Federation ship classes to be dropped off so far away the Intrepid was probably the worst one since it had a greater dependence on maintenance and supply support than usual.

It is kind of like comparing the AK-47, which according to Kalashnikov himself was designed extra tough for people who thought "cleaning your weapon" meant dunking it in a river and shaking it till all the mud and blood washed off, to the M-16 which is a high performance precision piece notoriously finicky about proper maintenance to remain operational.

Stargazer's engines would have been perfectly happy with the rotgut the Bussards scoop up for example, instead of the draconian fuel saving measures Voyager was forced to take because they had to mix the rotgut with the good stuff in their tanks in order for the engines to use it until they came up with some other way to get or make premium grade fuel. Neelix and his hydroponics would not have been needed and Jayneway would have had her coffee with no interruption if they were in a Constellation since they would have had plenty of power for the replicators.

This is completely false. Voyager would chew up and spit out the Stargazer without thinking twice. Voyager was the latest and greatest Starfleet had at the time. Personally I think you may have mixed up the Intrepid Class for the Prometheus Class, she was the tactical ship not the Intrepid. The Intrepid was a science vessel first, tactical second. she could defend herself very well but her primary mission was exploration. Voyager was the right ship for the job in traversing the Delta Quadrant, the only two classes who would do a better job then Voyager would be the Venture Galaxy-Class variant as seen in DS9 and of course the Sovereign Class because both had bigger guns to play with against the threats in the Delta Quadrant. The Constellation was designed much like Voyager was, to explore, BUT the edges of Federation space, not unknown space. If the Constellation had zero back up, she would be doomed, I doubt she would have made it past the Kazon let alone the Hirogen or Borg.

mustrumridcully0 · February 2020

artan42 wrote: »

angrytarg wrote: »

I don't know where people get the idea from the Intrepid was some tactical craft

Two things I imagine. The fact it was sent after the Marquis and that it survived the Delta Quadrant.

Obviously both things ignore the fact that it was only sent after the Marquis because the original plan was to have the Marquis/Starfleet conflict as the driving force of the show and Starfleet sends any ship to do anything (like the family filled Saratoga to Wolf 359) and also that the Voyager was the hero ship and would have survived the DQ even if it had been an Oberth.

Oh, and possibly a massive craptonne of fanfiction from non-canon magazines or encyclopaedias.

Of course giving both the nature of the Badlands and the nature of the Maquis, you might not really want a battleship after then. It's weapons are overpowered for their raiders, and the Badlands is a really difficult to navigate place you want the best sensor equipment you have to find anything (and not to run into any dangerous gas pockets). And you shouldn't send a "torpedo destroyer" out with just - what was it? - 38 torpedoes originally?

skhc · February 2020

jake477 wrote: »

The USS Victory was a Constellation Class that served in the Dominion War....that is right. The Constellation went up against the Jem'Hadar, granted she was lost with all hands but you seriously have to have a brass set to take something like the Constellation against the Dominion. Personally I would rather take the Enterprise Refit against the bug ships rather then the Stargazer, at least you'll get blown up in style. Shows how much Starfleet was scrapping the bottom of the barrel for ships.

Regardless I thought in terms of Picard being a rogue, the Stargazer would have added more character and depth to the overall story consider it was his first command, sure its a piece of hot garbage but so to is Han Solo's Millennium Falcon.

Victory was in service continuously though. The Stargazer was floating in space damaged and semi-derelict for nearly a decade and would've required considerable work to be a viable ship again - that it was in any way functional in "The Battle" is implausible enough. Presumably the Ferengi did some repairs. Plus the reg (NCC-9754) implies Victory is a good few years newer than the Stargazer to begin with.

I just don't see them bothering.

And the Falcon is hot garbage because it's a mish-mash of original tech and upgrades bolted in by Lando & Han which makes it unreliable, not because it's old. It's quite an effective ship when functional. There's an idea though, a Stargazer that keeps breaking down because Picard & Co scavanged bits for it from various ships left in surplus yards.

legendarylycan · February 2020

the falcon was also helped along by CEC's legendary ability to build HIGHLY modular ships

still waiting for a T6 millennium falcon, btw - it was in first contact, so it's canon, cryptic!

skhc · February 2020

shadowfang240 wrote: »

the falcon was also helped along by CEC's legendary ability to build HIGHLY modular ships

still waiting for a T6 millennium falcon, btw - it was in first contact, so it's canon, cryptic!

Crossover Lock Box. Imperial Star Destroyer as the T6 drop, with the Falcon as a shuttle.

captainbrian11 · February 2020

Stargazer would be impractial for Picard, even assuming he could get his hands on the ship (and I doubt he could) it's too big for him. A constellation class is about 200-250 meters long, that's about the size of a consisution class. and a little shorter then an intrepid. A Conny in TOS was noted to have a crew size of, approx 400. An intrepid a crew size of 150. As such a constellation would have a crew size somewhere between those depending on level of automation. even if we assume a crew size of ~150 that's a LOT of personal for Picard to recruit for this mission given episode 2 suggests it won't be with starfleet sanction. I suspect we're more likely to see him with a small ship close in size to a runabout. likely a civilian model ship. And personally I kinda look forward to that, a look at how folks who AREN'T starfleet go into space.

Basicly dispite the joke, the ship Picard gets is likely going to be the star trek equivilant to the Millinum Falcon

phoenixc · February 2020

angrytarg wrote: »

I suspect the latter @artan42. When you look at inofficial and fanon material, people just gush on about the military specs of Starfleet ships as if it was a Navy show. Granted it was fast - Voyager was just comissioned (not even fully ready I believe) and had the most advanced engines, making it a good choice to chase after the Marquis.

@phoenixc now that I'm on my computer, have a page from the show's writer's guide, aka the Technical Manual:

Note that yes, Sterfleet ships are all armed and well shielded and they do all serve a combat purpose. But that is not their mission profile or main focus. The Galaxy class, with all it's families on board, the luxurious quarters and tennis courts and the like, is a beast of a steamrolling battleship in combat as repeatedly pointed out by alien guests on board the Enterprise. That is because those ships need to be tough and have a bite because their mission is to operate alone, far from home. Even the Intrepid was made to undertake three-year missions without resupply - that is nothing like a fast interceptor, it's a mid to long range Explorer.

I am not surprised that the active series bible said that with the way they discarded most of the original concepts early in the first season. Do you know which seasons that one was written for by any chance? They tended to re-write them after changes in production staff or other factors caused story changes they wanted commissioned writers to know about. For instance TOS did that for the third season when NBC insisted that they did not want the term "heavy cruiser" used any more because it sounded "too military" (its a '60s thing), so they changed the designation from heavy cruiser to Starship (with a capital "S") to appease the censors.

Berman and the others talked about Voyager being the Arleigh Burke of the Federation during the early runup of the series (starting way back when Geneviève Bujold was still supposed to play the captain), and though they called the ship a destroyer in those early production phases they did not really call it anything at all in the dialog for quite a while afterwards. Andromeda got hit with the same trope, the one that says that no matter what a ship starts out as (a Commonwealth battleship in the case of Andromeda, according to pilot episode dialog) it eventually ends up a "cruiser".

A bit of trivia is that Voyager supposedly carried only two standard suttlecraft (though they lost far more than that over the length of the series) because an Arleigh Burke only has two helicopters.

In the "what will the series be like" style interviews it was stressed that the ship (unlike the Galaxy class) was not built for long missions and would be scrambling to get fuel and other necessities far away from Federation support, and that the crew(s) would have to work on various ways to extend the range without sacrificing too much speed and essentially rebuild the ship as a long range light cruiser on the fly.

Sadly, the paragraph about having only enough fuel for a three year mission seems to be the only thing left of all that, or at least on that page anyway (though the "one of the fastest and most powerful" thing does somewhat suggest that it was a very lean design meant for combat and police duties rather than a general purpose role, similar logic to the Defiant concept but not taken quite as far out of the typical Starfleet box). Personally I think the series would have been much better if they actually followed up on the despirate scrounging and two-crew friction threads more, but that is neither here nor there (and the show was still reasonably good as it aired).

mustrumridcully0 wrote: »

artan42 wrote: »

angrytarg wrote: »

I don't know where people get the idea from the Intrepid was some tactical craft

Two things I imagine. The fact it was sent after the Marquis and that it survived the Delta Quadrant.

Obviously both things ignore the fact that it was only sent after the Marquis because the original plan was to have the Marquis/Starfleet conflict as the driving force of the show and Starfleet sends any ship to do anything (like the family filled Saratoga to Wolf 359) and also that the Voyager was the hero ship and would have survived the DQ even if it had been an Oberth.

Oh, and possibly a massive craptonne of fanfiction from non-canon magazines or encyclopaedias.

Of course giving both the nature of the Badlands and the nature of the Maquis, you might not really want a battleship after then. It's weapons are overpowered for their raiders, and the Badlands is a really difficult to navigate place you want the best sensor equipment you have to find anything (and not to run into any dangerous gas pockets). And you shouldn't send a "torpedo destroyer" out with just - what was it? - 38 torpedoes originally?

Voyager was not sent out with just 38 torpedoes, that was just what was left operational at the end of the pilot episode. It is sort of like in "The Last Ship" when the Nathan James took a hit that flooded its main missile storage bunkers and wrecked most of its missiles. The displacement wave killed a lot larger percentage of torpedoes than it did crew and after the dust settled engineering could only cobble together that many operational torpedoes out of the mess, and they were all basic photon torpedoes (except for the two tricobalt armed ones they used to destroy the station, which would have been numbers 39 and 40 if they had not used them) and no quantums at all.

There are fan theories that Voyager was mainly carrying quantum torpedoes and that for some reason they were more susceptible to damage from the displacement wave than the photon torps were, though nothing official was ever said about it. At any rate, the torpedoes-left countdown was supposed to add a sort of long term tension to the series, but like the two-crews friction thing and the fuel/energy problems is was all pretty much just briefly touched upon then mostly dropped in favor of the formula alien of the week format the show settled into.

markhawkman · February 2020

captainbrian11 wrote: »

Stargazer would be impractial for Picard, even assuming he could get his hands on the ship (and I doubt he could) it's too big for him. A constellation class is about 200-250 meters long, that's about the size of a consisution class. and a little shorter then an intrepid. A Conny in TOS was noted to have a crew size of, approx 400. An intrepid a crew size of 150. As such a constellation would have a crew size somewhere between those depending on level of automation. even if we assume a crew size of ~150 that's a LOT of personal for Picard to recruit for this mission given episode 2 suggests it won't be with starfleet sanction. I suspect we're more likely to see him with a small ship close in size to a runabout. likely a civilian model ship. And personally I kinda look forward to that, a look at how folks who AREN'T starfleet go into space.

Basicly dispite the joke, the ship Picard gets is likely going to be the star trek equivilant to the Millinum Falcon

Well we've seen shots of what might be inside a civilian freighter.

angrytarg · February 2020

phoenixc#0738 wrote: »

I am not surprised that the active series bible said that with the way they discarded most of the original concepts early in the first season. Do you know which seasons that one was written for by any chance? They tended to re-write them after changes in production staff or other factors caused story changes they wanted commissioned writers to know about. For instance TOS did that for the third season when NBC insisted that they did not want the term "heavy cruiser" used any more because it sounded "too military" (its a '60s thing), so they changed the designation from heavy cruiser to Starship (with a capital "S") to appease the censors.

It's the Season One edition, the one that has been published in it's raw state. As opposed to the TNG and DS9 manual, the Voyager one hasn't been commercially avialable.

Berman and the others talked about Voyager being the Arleigh Burke of the Federation during the early runup of the series (starting way back when Geneviève Bujold was still supposed to play the captain), and though they called the ship a destroyer in those early production phases they did not really call it anything at all in the dialog for quite a while afterwards. Andromeda got hit with the same trope, the one that says that no matter what a ship starts out as (a Commonwealth battleship in the case of Andromeda, according to pilot episode dialog) it eventually ends up a "cruiser".

Whatever it was in the early stages, nothing of that found it's way in the final draft. Not only the tech manual, but also canon doesn't support a single thing of wild fan theories you sell as facts here. Also, the specifications were written by Sternbach and Okuda, Berman had nothing to do with it.

In the "what will the series be like" style interviews it was stressed that the ship (unlike the Galaxy class) was not built for long missions and would be scrambling to get fuel and other necessities far away from Federation support, and that the crew(s) would have to work on various ways to extend the range without sacrificing too much speed and essentially rebuild the ship as a long range light cruiser on the fly.

The ship has a lot of science stations, holodecks and luxurious quarters. It wasn't meant to have families on board according to comments made by Janeway once a crewman got pregnant since it probably shouldn't be out that long, but still three years is a long time.

Sadly, the paragraph about having only enough fuel for a three year mission seems to be the only thing left of all that, or at least on that page anyway (though the "one of the fastest and most powerful" thing does somewhat suggest that it was a very lean design meant for combat and police duties rather than a general purpose role, similar logic to the Defiant concept but not taken quite as far out of the typical Starfleet box). Personally I think the series would have been much better if they actually followed up on the despirate scrounging and two-crew friction threads more, but that is neither here nor there (and the show was still reasonably good as it aired).

Voyager dropped it's premise almost immediately. I agree it would have probably been the better show, I disagree with it being reasonably good - after DS9, Voyager's writing was some of the worst in a long time. Only Enterprise was even worse than that - both shows tried to become TNG 2.0, but with Voyager it was at least era-appropriate.

phoenixc · February 2020

angrytarg wrote: »

phoenixc#0738 wrote: »

I am not surprised that the active series bible said that with the way they discarded most of the original concepts early in the first season. Do you know which seasons that one was written for by any chance? They tended to re-write them after changes in production staff or other factors caused story changes they wanted commissioned writers to know about. For instance TOS did that for the third season when NBC insisted that they did not want the term "heavy cruiser" used any more because it sounded "too military" (its a '60s thing), so they changed the designation from heavy cruiser to Starship (with a capital "S") to appease the censors.

It's the Season One edition, the one that has been published in it's raw state. As opposed to the TNG and DS9 manual, the Voyager one hasn't been commercially avialable.

Berman and the others talked about Voyager being the Arleigh Burke of the Federation during the early runup of the series (starting way back when Geneviève Bujold was still supposed to play the captain), and though they called the ship a destroyer in those early production phases they did not really call it anything at all in the dialog for quite a while afterwards. Andromeda got hit with the same trope, the one that says that no matter what a ship starts out as (a Commonwealth battleship in the case of Andromeda, according to pilot episode dialog) it eventually ends up a "cruiser".

Whatever it was in the early stages, nothing of that found it's way in the final draft. Not only the tech manual, but also canon doesn't support a single thing of wild fan theories you sell as facts here. Also, the specifications were written by Sternbach and Okuda, Berman had nothing to do with it.

In the "what will the series be like" style interviews it was stressed that the ship (unlike the Galaxy class) was not built for long missions and would be scrambling to get fuel and other necessities far away from Federation support, and that the crew(s) would have to work on various ways to extend the range without sacrificing too much speed and essentially rebuild the ship as a long range light cruiser on the fly.

The ship has a lot of science stations, holodecks and luxurious quarters. It wasn't meant to have families on board according to comments made by Janeway once a crewman got pregnant since it probably shouldn't be out that long, but still three years is a long time.

Sadly, the paragraph about having only enough fuel for a three year mission seems to be the only thing left of all that, or at least on that page anyway (though the "one of the fastest and most powerful" thing does somewhat suggest that it was a very lean design meant for combat and police duties rather than a general purpose role, similar logic to the Defiant concept but not taken quite as far out of the typical Starfleet box). Personally I think the series would have been much better if they actually followed up on the despirate scrounging and two-crew friction threads more, but that is neither here nor there (and the show was still reasonably good as it aired).

Voyager dropped it's premise almost immediately. I agree it would have probably been the better show, I disagree with it being reasonably good - after DS9, Voyager's writing was some of the worst in a long time. Only Enterprise was even worse than that - both shows tried to become TNG 2.0, but with Voyager it was at least era-appropriate.

Actually a fan theory is, by definition, some idea from a fan or fans, not statements made by a production's creators and executives. The only fan theory I presented was the popular speculation that was formed to try and work out a plausible reason why most of the torpedo stores were destroyed while the majority of the ship was just badly shook up, along with the why the ship was designed to handle quantum torpedoes but did not have even a single one available.

As for the creators of the show, it is true Sternbach and Okuda came up with the stuff, but it was Birman who was the usual spokesman for the show, so most of the information came from interviews he was speaking in regardless of who thought it up. And the fact is, nothing canon or otherwise from Paramount itself has ever directly contradicted the Arleigh Burke statement, not even that page of the writer's guide.

I did make an error though, I thought that they started calling Voyager a cruiser in the last season or two, but it turns out that they only used the word cruiser in three episodes of the whole series, and those were always in reference to other ships and not the Voyager. The fact is, they never call the ship either cruiser or destroyer in any of the dialog (and even the bridge plaque avoids the terms, just calling it an "Intrepid Class Starship"), even when avoiding the terms made the dialog slightly awkward. And like the real-world Arleigh Burke class it seems to be sized in the gray area where it could be called either a large destroyer or a smallish light cruiser.

That three year endurance notation in the series bible is interesting btw, an informal rule of thumb for making the specs for other ships was that they were designed to be able to be out for (at least) twice the nominal mission length, which implies the Intrepid class was meant to be out no more than a year and a half at a time.

mirrorchaos · February 2020

jake477 wrote: »

I have given some thought on what I would like to see in Star Trek Picard. I would love it if this show brought back the USS Stargazer. We never get to see the Constellation Class in action even in the background. This ship was Picard's first Command and it would be extremely satisfying to see her be back in action under Picard. As Scotty said it best, you never forget your first ship. Plus I would imagine it would be very easy to acquire considering by now almost all of her class have been wasting away in shipyards for years. I looked over her specs and the Stargazer could be a formidable ship if she was given the TLC she needs. Top speed of warp nine, multiple phaser and torpedo installations, science labs among others. About the size of USS Voyager with 15 Decks, possibly the Constellation was the Intrepid Class of her era because both share similarities to each other with their mission profiles. It would also give a nodd to Star Trek III where Kirk runs off with the Enterprise to find Spock, kind of like Picard going to the stars to find Data's second daughter. If Kirk gets his Enterprise then Picard should get his Stargazer. Then you could sprinkle in jokes about how Cmdr. Riker had to command the USS Hathaway in TNG like "How did you do it Number 1?", or "Where the hell is Worf when I need him" etc.

It would be fun it see it come full circle. Picard went from the Flagship of the Fleet in the Enterprise E to.......Starfleet's Redheaded Step-Child.

The Hathaway was a relic used in wargames, the ship was totally stripped down. The Stargazer was a relic, found abandoned by a Ferengi Daimon as an elaborate trap for psychological torture. The ships system were old and obsolete which meant it needed investment to bring it up to standards. But like the Ambassador class, it was probably stripped for parts which is almost certain and then sat as a display piece while all the other sister ships were torn apart and reused for new ships or to patch up other ships.

It is highly doubtful the Stargazer is in service in 2400.

angrytarg wrote: »

> @phoenixc#0738 said:
(...) while the Intrepid class mission design was as a short-deployment ultra fast torpedo destroyer. (...)

I think you are confusing the Intrepid with the Defiant (or rather it's Pathfinder concept). Nothing indicates the Intrepid is anything like a 'ultra fast torpedo destroyer'. It's an exploration vessel, basically a scaled down Galaxy. I don't know where people get the idea from the Intrepid was some tactical craft, it had sophisticated research labs, holodecks for crew comfort, a planetary survey shuttle, landing capability (the Galaxy's saucer was supposed to land take off on and from planets, the landing gear just didn"t make it on the final filming model according to the starship magazine) and the technical manual states that Intrepid/Voyager is not a warship on one of the first pages.

It was never a torpedo boat, the Akira class was meant to be that torpedo boat. The Intrepid was top of the line mid range science ship with some interesting tactical capabilities. Voyager needed to solve its food and water problems in the DQ, and the crew had to think creatively to survive, but even then there was only so much the ship can give before resupplying is needed, there were times where energy supplies on the ship got low and replicators had to be taken off line with emergency rations being brought out of storage.

artan42 wrote: »

angrytarg wrote: »

I don't know where people get the idea from the Intrepid was some tactical craft

Two things I imagine. The fact it was sent after the Marquis and that it survived the Delta Quadrant.

Obviously both things ignore the fact that it was only sent after the Marquis because the original plan was to have the Marquis/Starfleet conflict as the driving force of the show and Starfleet sends any ship to do anything (like the family filled Saratoga to Wolf 359) and also that the Voyager was the hero ship and would have survived the DQ even if it had been an Oberth.

Oh, and possibly a massive craptonne of fanfiction from non-canon magazines or encyclopaedias.

The Maquis raider if you hadn't realised was no match against a Cardassian Galor which itself was no match against a Galaxy class, so the Val Jean wasn't considered a serious threat to Starfleet's assessments, so a ship like Voyager would still be more than a match for a modified courier ship fresh out of torpedoes and low on energy anyway. on top of this Voyager can cruise at warp 9.9 with a brand new warp core compared to the 40 year old rebuilt engine in the Val Jean, but i doubt even that engine could have the legs on an Intrepid.

artan42 · February 2020

mirrorchaos wrote: »

jake477 wrote: »

I have given some thought on what I would like to see in Star Trek Picard. I would love it if this show brought back the USS Stargazer. We never get to see the Constellation Class in action even in the background. This ship was Picard's first Command and it would be extremely satisfying to see her be back in action under Picard. As Scotty said it best, you never forget your first ship. Plus I would imagine it would be very easy to acquire considering by now almost all of her class have been wasting away in shipyards for years. I looked over her specs and the Stargazer could be a formidable ship if she was given the TLC she needs. Top speed of warp nine, multiple phaser and torpedo installations, science labs among others. About the size of USS Voyager with 15 Decks, possibly the Constellation was the Intrepid Class of her era because both share similarities to each other with their mission profiles. It would also give a nodd to Star Trek III where Kirk runs off with the Enterprise to find Spock, kind of like Picard going to the stars to find Data's second daughter. If Kirk gets his Enterprise then Picard should get his Stargazer. Then you could sprinkle in jokes about how Cmdr. Riker had to command the USS Hathaway in TNG like "How did you do it Number 1?", or "Where the hell is Worf when I need him" etc.

It would be fun it see it come full circle. Picard went from the Flagship of the Fleet in the Enterprise E to.......Starfleet's Redheaded Step-Child.

The Hathaway was a relic used in wargames, the ship was totally stripped down. The Stargazer was a relic, found abandoned by a Ferengi Daimon as an elaborate trap for psychological torture. The ships system were old and obsolete which meant it needed investment to bring it up to standards. But like the Ambassador class, it was probably stripped for parts which is almost certain and then sat as a display piece while all the other sister ships were torn apart and reused for new ships or to patch up other ships.

It is highly doubtful the Stargazer is in service in 2400.

angrytarg wrote: »

> @phoenixc#0738 said:
(...) while the Intrepid class mission design was as a short-deployment ultra fast torpedo destroyer. (...)

I think you are confusing the Intrepid with the Defiant (or rather it's Pathfinder concept). Nothing indicates the Intrepid is anything like a 'ultra fast torpedo destroyer'. It's an exploration vessel, basically a scaled down Galaxy. I don't know where people get the idea from the Intrepid was some tactical craft, it had sophisticated research labs, holodecks for crew comfort, a planetary survey shuttle, landing capability (the Galaxy's saucer was supposed to land take off on and from planets, the landing gear just didn"t make it on the final filming model according to the starship magazine) and the technical manual states that Intrepid/Voyager is not a warship on one of the first pages.

It was never a torpedo boat, the Akira class was meant to be that torpedo boat. The Intrepid was top of the line mid range science ship with some interesting tactical capabilities. Voyager needed to solve its food and water problems in the DQ, and the crew had to think creatively to survive, but even then there was only so much the ship can give before resupplying is needed, there were times where energy supplies on the ship got low and replicators had to be taken off line with emergency rations being brought out of storage.

artan42 wrote: »

angrytarg wrote: »

I don't know where people get the idea from the Intrepid was some tactical craft

Two things I imagine. The fact it was sent after the Marquis and that it survived the Delta Quadrant.

Obviously both things ignore the fact that it was only sent after the Marquis because the original plan was to have the Marquis/Starfleet conflict as the driving force of the show and Starfleet sends any ship to do anything (like the family filled Saratoga to Wolf 359) and also that the Voyager was the hero ship and would have survived the DQ even if it had been an Oberth.

Oh, and possibly a massive craptonne of fanfiction from non-canon magazines or encyclopaedias.

The Maquis raider if you hadn't realised was no match against a Cardassian Galor which itself was no match against a Galaxy class, so the Val Jean wasn't considered a serious threat to Starfleet's assessments, so a ship like Voyager would still be more than a match for a modified courier ship fresh out of torpedoes and low on energy anyway. on top of this Voyager can cruise at warp 9.9 with a brand new warp core compared to the 40 year old rebuilt engine in the Val Jean, but i doubt even that engine could have the legs on an Intrepid.

Wow, I really hadn't considered that a shuttle wouldn't be much good against a starship. Thank you for that brand new information.

Or maybe I meant that, as Starfleet didn't know how many Marquis ships the Val Jean might meet up with, they sent a fast ship that would be able to handle any number of raiders whereas something like a Miranda or Oberth (due to the TNG era not having any small ships) would be overwhelmed by a few Raiders.

phoenixc · February 2020

mirrorchaos wrote: »

angrytarg wrote: »

> @phoenixc#0738 said:
(...) while the Intrepid class mission design was as a short-deployment ultra fast torpedo destroyer. (...)

I think you are confusing the Intrepid with the Defiant (or rather it's Pathfinder concept). Nothing indicates the Intrepid is anything like a 'ultra fast torpedo destroyer'. It's an exploration vessel, basically a scaled down Galaxy. I don't know where people get the idea from the Intrepid was some tactical craft, it had sophisticated research labs, holodecks for crew comfort, a planetary survey shuttle, landing capability (the Galaxy's saucer was supposed to land take off on and from planets, the landing gear just didn"t make it on the final filming model according to the starship magazine) and the technical manual states that Intrepid/Voyager is not a warship on one of the first pages.

It was never a torpedo boat, the Akira class was meant to be that torpedo boat. The Intrepid was top of the line mid range science ship with some interesting tactical capabilities. Voyager needed to solve its food and water problems in the DQ, and the crew had to think creatively to survive, but even then there was only so much the ship can give before resupplying is needed, there were times where energy supplies on the ship got low and replicators had to be taken off line with emergency rations being brought out of storage.

Actually, the runup to VOY was the first time a "torpedo boat" concept was even mentioned in Star Trek outside of possibly novels. Since the real-world Arleigh Burke is a guided missile destroyer class and the dwindling torpedo count was actually supposed to mean something, that strongly suggests that the Intrepid class was meant to be a sophisticated fast torpedo-armed (since that is the Trek equivalent to guided missiles) destroyer as well.

Like most Birman shows it chickened out by the time production actually started and ignored most of its own original concept in favor of a more conservative "in the box" approach, but that does not mean the ship was not primarily meant as the same Arleigh Burke equivalent it started out as, especially since nothing they did or said in the show itself directly contradicted any of the runup hype.

And there is no reason why both the Intrepid and the Akira classes could not be guided-missile ship analogs existing side by side, especially since the Intrepid was supposed to be faster and the Akira heavier, like how the Arleigh Burke class missile destroyer and the Ticonderoga class missile cruiser both exist in the US Navy at the same time.

mirrorchaos · February 2020

artan42 wrote: »

Wow, I really hadn't considered that a shuttle wouldn't be much good against a starship. Thank you for that brand new information.

Your welcome.

artan42 wrote: »

Or maybe I meant that, as Starfleet didn't know how many Marquis ships the Val Jean might meet up with, they sent a fast ship that would be able to handle any number of raiders whereas something like a Miranda or Oberth (due to the TNG era not having any small ships) would be overwhelmed by a few Raiders.

Didn't you hear what Janeway said in the first episode? They were after the Val Jean to rescue Tuvok who hasn't been heard of but the Voyager's primary mission is to find and detain the crew of the Val Jean. Enter Tom Paris who has more knowledge of the badlands than anyone else.

Janeway debated with Paris about the fate of the Val Jean after Voyager got underway where it was claimed to be destroyed by the Cardassians but Janeway hit back say that it wasn't possible due to something with the Val Jean's warp core.

It directly implies that Starfleet knew Voyager was only after one ship and it's likely the Cardassians had already given the report from Gul Evek to Starfleet. It is further reinforced when Voyager was searching the area for the one ship in the badlands. Voyager was also capable of traversing the plasma anomalies better than most starships. It isn't like what the Enterprise D faced, a coordinated strike, the maquis may have been completely unaware that the Voyager had been sent, or their resources had been tied up fighting Cardassian colonists in the DMZ.

artan42 · February 2020

mirrorchaos wrote: »

artan42 wrote: »

Wow, I really hadn't considered that a shuttle wouldn't be much good against a starship. Thank you for that brand new information.

Your welcome.

artan42 wrote: »

Or maybe I meant that, as Starfleet didn't know how many Marquis ships the Val Jean might meet up with, they sent a fast ship that would be able to handle any number of raiders whereas something like a Miranda or Oberth (due to the TNG era not having any small ships) would be overwhelmed by a few Raiders.

Didn't you hear what Janeway said in the first episode? They were after the Val Jean to rescue Tuvok who hasn't been heard of but the Voyager's primary mission is to find and detain the crew of the Val Jean. Enter Tom Paris who has more knowledge of the badlands than anyone else.

Janeway debated with Paris about the fate of the Val Jean after Voyager got underway where it was claimed to be destroyed by the Cardassians but Janeway hit back say that it wasn't possible due to something with the Val Jean's warp core.

It directly implies that Starfleet knew Voyager was only after one ship and it's likely the Cardassians had already given the report from Gul Evek to Starfleet. It is further reinforced when Voyager was searching the area for the one ship in the badlands. Voyager was also capable of traversing the plasma anomalies better than most starships. It isn't like what the Enterprise D faced, a coordinated strike, the maquis may have been completely unaware that the Voyager had been sent, or their resources had been tied up fighting Cardassian colonists in the DMZ.

None of that implies they knew they were after one ship. It means their mission was the recover the Val Jean. In the Badlands where Marquis have hid.

And no, I didn't hear what Janeway said in the first episode. I've seen VGR once and have no desire to see it again, it's a tired TNG clone without any of the redeeming features the tired TNG clone ENT had.

I don't care why the Voyager was picked to go after the Marquis, I'm giving it as a reason as to why some people are labouring under the delusion the Voyager is some sort of high powered military vessel rather than the stubby Galaxy successor it actually is.

mirrorchaos · February 2020

phoenixc#0738 wrote: »

mirrorchaos wrote: »

angrytarg wrote: »

> @phoenixc#0738 said:
(...) while the Intrepid class mission design was as a short-deployment ultra fast torpedo destroyer. (...)

I think you are confusing the Intrepid with the Defiant (or rather it's Pathfinder concept). Nothing indicates the Intrepid is anything like a 'ultra fast torpedo destroyer'. It's an exploration vessel, basically a scaled down Galaxy. I don't know where people get the idea from the Intrepid was some tactical craft, it had sophisticated research labs, holodecks for crew comfort, a planetary survey shuttle, landing capability (the Galaxy's saucer was supposed to land take off on and from planets, the landing gear just didn"t make it on the final filming model according to the starship magazine) and the technical manual states that Intrepid/Voyager is not a warship on one of the first pages.

It was never a torpedo boat, the Akira class was meant to be that torpedo boat. The Intrepid was top of the line mid range science ship with some interesting tactical capabilities. Voyager needed to solve its food and water problems in the DQ, and the crew had to think creatively to survive, but even then there was only so much the ship can give before resupplying is needed, there were times where energy supplies on the ship got low and replicators had to be taken off line with emergency rations being brought out of storage.

Actually, the runup to VOY was the first time a "torpedo boat" concept was even mentioned in Star Trek outside of possibly novels. Since the real-world Arleigh Burke is a guided missile destroyer class and the dwindling torpedo count was actually supposed to mean something, that strongly suggests that the Intrepid class was meant to be a sophisticated fast torpedo-armed (since that is the Trek equivalent to guided missiles) destroyer as well.

Like most Birman shows it chickened out by the time production actually started and ignored most of its own original concept in favor of a more conservative "in the box" approach, but that does not mean the ship was not primarily meant as the same Arleigh Burke equivalent it started out as, especially since nothing they did or said in the show itself directly contradicted any of the runup hype.

And there is no reason why both the Intrepid and the Akira classes could not be guided-missile ship analogs existing side by side, especially since the Intrepid was supposed to be faster and the Akira heavier, like how the Arleigh Burke class missile destroyer and the Ticonderoga class missile cruiser both exist in the US Navy at the same time.

As i recall Voyager started out with a compliment of about 40 torpedoes as directly mentioned by Janeway when Chakotay wanted to use one on that cloud like lifeform with the omicron particles, it suggests that it doesn't ring true with the idea of a torpedo boat. There is no way to know if that is the limit of how many Voyager can carry or what starfleet gave them considering how low risk the mission was.

phoenixc · February 2020

mirrorchaos wrote: »

phoenixc#0738 wrote: »

mirrorchaos wrote: »

angrytarg wrote: »

> @phoenixc#0738 said:
(...) while the Intrepid class mission design was as a short-deployment ultra fast torpedo destroyer. (...)

I think you are confusing the Intrepid with the Defiant (or rather it's Pathfinder concept). Nothing indicates the Intrepid is anything like a 'ultra fast torpedo destroyer'. It's an exploration vessel, basically a scaled down Galaxy. I don't know where people get the idea from the Intrepid was some tactical craft, it had sophisticated research labs, holodecks for crew comfort, a planetary survey shuttle, landing capability (the Galaxy's saucer was supposed to land take off on and from planets, the landing gear just didn"t make it on the final filming model according to the starship magazine) and the technical manual states that Intrepid/Voyager is not a warship on one of the first pages.

It was never a torpedo boat, the Akira class was meant to be that torpedo boat. The Intrepid was top of the line mid range science ship with some interesting tactical capabilities. Voyager needed to solve its food and water problems in the DQ, and the crew had to think creatively to survive, but even then there was only so much the ship can give before resupplying is needed, there were times where energy supplies on the ship got low and replicators had to be taken off line with emergency rations being brought out of storage.

Actually, the runup to VOY was the first time a "torpedo boat" concept was even mentioned in Star Trek outside of possibly novels. Since the real-world Arleigh Burke is a guided missile destroyer class and the dwindling torpedo count was actually supposed to mean something, that strongly suggests that the Intrepid class was meant to be a sophisticated fast torpedo-armed (since that is the Trek equivalent to guided missiles) destroyer as well.

Like most Birman shows it chickened out by the time production actually started and ignored most of its own original concept in favor of a more conservative "in the box" approach, but that does not mean the ship was not primarily meant as the same Arleigh Burke equivalent it started out as, especially since nothing they did or said in the show itself directly contradicted any of the runup hype.

And there is no reason why both the Intrepid and the Akira classes could not be guided-missile ship analogs existing side by side, especially since the Intrepid was supposed to be faster and the Akira heavier, like how the Arleigh Burke class missile destroyer and the Ticonderoga class missile cruiser both exist in the US Navy at the same time.

As i recall Voyager started out with a compliment of about 40 torpedoes as directly mentioned by Janeway when Chakotay wanted to use one on that cloud like lifeform with the omicron particles, it suggests that it doesn't ring true with the idea of a torpedo boat. There is no way to know if that is the limit of how many Voyager can carry or what starfleet gave them considering how low risk the mission was.

In the pilot they mention that they lost all but 38 torpedoes to damage from the displacement wave. And it was never said that it was the "full compliment" just that they had a complement of 38 torpedoes available (which matches the countdown at the end of "The Caretaker" which was the pilot episode). For convenience I have copied the relevant dialog here:

CHAKOTAY: We have a complement of thirty eight photon torpedoes at our disposal, Captain.
JANEWAY: And no way to replace them after they're gone.

They never say onscreen what the full compliment was before they lost so many getting dragged into delta quadrant.

starkaos · February 2020

phoenixc#0738 wrote: »

mirrorchaos wrote: »

phoenixc#0738 wrote: »

mirrorchaos wrote: »

angrytarg wrote: »

> @phoenixc#0738 said:
(...) while the Intrepid class mission design was as a short-deployment ultra fast torpedo destroyer. (...)

I think you are confusing the Intrepid with the Defiant (or rather it's Pathfinder concept). Nothing indicates the Intrepid is anything like a 'ultra fast torpedo destroyer'. It's an exploration vessel, basically a scaled down Galaxy. I don't know where people get the idea from the Intrepid was some tactical craft, it had sophisticated research labs, holodecks for crew comfort, a planetary survey shuttle, landing capability (the Galaxy's saucer was supposed to land take off on and from planets, the landing gear just didn"t make it on the final filming model according to the starship magazine) and the technical manual states that Intrepid/Voyager is not a warship on one of the first pages.

It was never a torpedo boat, the Akira class was meant to be that torpedo boat. The Intrepid was top of the line mid range science ship with some interesting tactical capabilities. Voyager needed to solve its food and water problems in the DQ, and the crew had to think creatively to survive, but even then there was only so much the ship can give before resupplying is needed, there were times where energy supplies on the ship got low and replicators had to be taken off line with emergency rations being brought out of storage.

Actually, the runup to VOY was the first time a "torpedo boat" concept was even mentioned in Star Trek outside of possibly novels. Since the real-world Arleigh Burke is a guided missile destroyer class and the dwindling torpedo count was actually supposed to mean something, that strongly suggests that the Intrepid class was meant to be a sophisticated fast torpedo-armed (since that is the Trek equivalent to guided missiles) destroyer as well.

Like most Birman shows it chickened out by the time production actually started and ignored most of its own original concept in favor of a more conservative "in the box" approach, but that does not mean the ship was not primarily meant as the same Arleigh Burke equivalent it started out as, especially since nothing they did or said in the show itself directly contradicted any of the runup hype.

And there is no reason why both the Intrepid and the Akira classes could not be guided-missile ship analogs existing side by side, especially since the Intrepid was supposed to be faster and the Akira heavier, like how the Arleigh Burke class missile destroyer and the Ticonderoga class missile cruiser both exist in the US Navy at the same time.

As i recall Voyager started out with a compliment of about 40 torpedoes as directly mentioned by Janeway when Chakotay wanted to use one on that cloud like lifeform with the omicron particles, it suggests that it doesn't ring true with the idea of a torpedo boat. There is no way to know if that is the limit of how many Voyager can carry or what starfleet gave them considering how low risk the mission was.

In the pilot they mention that they lost all but 38 torpedoes to damage from the displacement wave. And it was never said that it was the "full compliment" just that they had a complement of 38 torpedoes available (which matches the countdown at the end of "The Caretaker" which was the pilot episode). For convenience I have copied the relevant dialog here:

CHAKOTAY: We have a complement of thirty eight photon torpedoes at our disposal, Captain.
JANEWAY: And no way to replace them after they're gone.

They never say onscreen what the full compliment was before they lost so many getting dragged into delta quadrant.

This is one of the things that Stargate Universe did better than Voyager. One episode has Voyager extremely damaged and the next episode has it perfectly fine. At least it took SGU a few episodes to figure out how they would survive.

markhawkman · February 2020

reyan01 wrote: »

starkaos wrote: »

This is one of the things that Stargate Universe did better than Voyager. One episode has Voyager extremely damaged and the next episode has it perfectly fine. At least it took SGU a few episodes to figure out how they would survive.

The ironic thing is the series (VOY) DID touch on this

'Equinox' showed us a Starfleet ship that was dragged into the Delta Quadrant in a similar fashion and neither the ship nor the crew (in a sense) really recovered from the damage she took following her displacement from the Alpha Quadrant and, subsequently, being repeatedly attacked by the Krowtonan Guard.

One other difference is that the SGU series was written to be a continual story and Voyager would often have in-universe months separating episodes. These breaks in the story were often said to be when Voyager did trading for parts and materials. Also building the Hydroponics lab.

Star Trek Picard. - USS Stargazer

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