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Vizier class any good ?

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  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,742 Arc User
    edited November 2019
    If you want to call it an agenda then more power to you. I simply have no patience for the "DPS is everything and everything else is useless" type of mentality.

    If you would rather use the word 'bias' I'm fine with that. Your reply to Pete was just out of the box, you were attacking him for points he never made all because he has that little banner in his signature.
    If people want to chase numbers, by all means do it if that's what they're into. If someone wants to say "I don't like this ship because it can't do X amount of damage and I don't recommend it" that's one thing. But to come on here and say a ship is bad purely because you don't like it, you think it doesn't do enough damage, and then try to assert it as
    objective fact based on those reasons, while essentially accusing folks who think otherwise of "gaslightning" and saying they're wrong is a little thing we call Elitism and Gatekeeping, and those things are not going to fly here. You're allowed to chase numbers. You're allowed to think a ship is good or bad. You're also allowed to voice those opinions provided they're done in a civil manor. What's not cool and not going to fly is asserting those opinions as objective fact and then lampooning folks who disagree. Having debate about why you feel a ship is good or bad is one thing, elitism and gatekeeping are something else.

    I HAVE stated objectively why I feel the ship is a bad option. I have talked about it's value in Zen, I have compared it to other available ships including the one that's the same class (Archon) I have gone over energy weapon and kintetic builds.. others have dissected command vs. Intel.. how much more objectivity do you require? Just because someone disagrees with you, that's not a forum violation. I would ask you to please keep your moderation threats out of this. If you don't want to discuss the issue, I'll accept that and we're cool.. but I won't be bullied by threats of moderation for stating an opinion. Your status is not a weapon, I'll thank you to stop trying to use it as one. I am doing the same thing you are, I am stating my objective opinion.

    Saying it's viable is one thing, asserting it as objectively bad purely because it's not the next chart topper and/or you don't like it it is something else. So none are saying it's a bad ship eh?
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    But from a general mechanical stand point...the ship does kinda suck. If you like it and can make it work...great for you...but stop gaslighting players into thinking a subpar ship is good. Remember, rule 1 is fly what you like. That does not mean what you like to fly is good however.

    The quote just above this statement would like to have a word with you on that "no one said it's a bad ship" thing.

    My reply was to you as you were quoting @peterconnorfirst and accusing HIM of these things. I think we all know I have no control over what Napalm says, he speaks his mind and I'm not responsible for that. The problem is, he said it and then you attacked Pete for it just because you saw that signature banner and decided he was being an 'elitist.' @coldnapalm has said many times that he's not a 'DPS'er' so why are you attacking someone else for his comments?

    You're putting words into Pete's mouth, just so you can attack them. If you take issue with what Napalm says, then by all means retaliate against him.. I think we all know that if anyone here can take it.. it's him.
    In regards to the "paperweight tank" what you're describing is one of the far extreme ends of the spectrum which is not reflective of all tanks.

    I get what you're saying here, and it's fair. But again, in your example, you're talking about a 'tank' that does 30k. You know how to build a tank, so do I, so for us that's easy.. but the average player in this game doesn't do 30k going 'full DPS.' When they 'tank' it's far far less. Again, you turned that into me somehow saying you have to do 'max DPS' in a tank.. I think 30k is perfectly fine. You argued based on what you assumed I meant.

    I understand that average player skill level is a different conversation for a different thread, and that's fair.. that's the thought that pops into my head when someone says they're 'tanking.' Obviously, the people in this conversation know how to build a STO tank, so all's good there. I still think there are better options for the Zen, but I have already conceded that the ship has a place and that in a certain situation it's better then the Archon. Given the limited role of that scenario coupled with the price, I still believe this ship is a 'bad buy.' If you want to say it can be useful as a tank, I'm willing to go along with that.. sure. Can it tank? It can.. so can the Archon.
    As i said previously, I don't care if folks like to chase numbers as that's their choice. If folks don't like a ship purely because it's not a chart topper, or isn't tailored towards their particular playstyle, they're entitled to that opinion.

    A very fair viewpoint.

    What they are NOT entitled to do is come on here and assert a ship is bad purely because of those reasons as though it's objectively established fact, and then lampoon people who disagree. That's called gatekeeping and elitism, neither of which are allowed.

    When you quote someone and then type a response, you're responding to that person. You have done this to a poster who has done none of these things and then accused them of these forum violations. We have stated objectively why we believe this ship is a bad decision to purchase, it's documented all through this thread. Accusing someone of a forum violation for having a counter opinion is a bad look, I am sure you're not doing it on purpose, but I urge you to take a look at how you're presenting this argument because it's really starting to feel like a Moderator trying to pull the rule card because he doesn't like the other side of the argument.

    I know you won't care, but as someone who knows the person you were replying to, I can just tell you that you got it wrong man. No one in this game is less of an 'elitist' then Pete.. no one.. and it's a shame to see these type of accusations based on simply having a different opinion.

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  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 3,638 Arc User
    “Once again this just reinforces my point, some folks can't see the rest of the game for their DPS charts. If someone prefers to do high numbers more power to them. Being a tank is far more than just DPS”
    Yes being a tank is more then DPS, but DPS is one of the main components to a successful tank. If you ignore DPS chances are you are not a useful tank. Although I am wondering in todays state of the game is there is such a thing as a useful tank :(

    “In the first bit above you state they're not real tank ships, then go on in the next bit to say they are. Which is it? Are they real tanks or not? You don't get to have it both ways. Again you and I have access to the same parse data and I still stand by my statement that those record runs would be impossible without a tank in there.”
    Nether, I stated they are not real tank ships but still tank without a problem. Meaning real tank ships are not needed. Using myself as an example as its easier for me.

    My current ship has zero tanking traits, often zero tanking consoles, zero Bridge officers that passively boost tanking. Sometimes I even run it with zero healing bridge officers though it has a few minor ones at the moment. Would you call that a real tank ship? I wouldn’t even though it can tank just fine on Advanced/Elite absorbing 1million+ damage.

    The same applies to those high DPS runs. Many if not all those ships you are looking at and calling tank ships are not real tank ships. They are DPS ships. Those ships tanking 1 or 2 million incoming DPS are not tanks. Which is the problem they are tanking absolutely fine and so don’t need a real tank run by another player to run as a tank and pull aggro :(


    “I'm sorry but this actually made me laugh out loud at my keyboard for real. There is a key point you're missing in the calculations above, that number is sustained threat output. Assuming a 1/1 ration of damage to threat, a tank can get up to 1000% threat before touching any kind of equipment, that 1750% assumes 5 threat boosters from the embassy. So assuming the tank is pulling 100k, which is very much possible, you would need to pull and sustain between 1m-1.75m dps in a run. So unless you're telling me you can pull and sustain 1.75m DPS, then the only way you're pulling off of a tank cranking that amount of threat is by directly taunting. And if you are telling me you can pull and sustain 1.75m DPS then I want to see the logs of that because I'm calling shenanigans.”
    Not sustained but assuming base 1 damage = 1 threat then yes I often pull way more than 1.75million threat against groups of enemies. It’s pretty common for me to against waves of ships to pull in 5 to 10million threat per group. The last time someone uploaded one of my HSE runs I had something like 15million threat against the big group of cubes at the start. There are a lot of factors like which TFO we are talking about and what area of the TFO we are talking about. For example, The Swarm TFO on Elite there is no point in a tank being anywhere near me as they will pull zero threat at the end of the lanes. Same for the Gauntlet and others. But that’s just if you’re flying with me. That’s not to say its like that for everyone.

    Saying that, the above is kind of irrelevant. My point isn’t about pulling threat. I do agree the Vizier can make a reasonable tank and reasonable healer and I would never call the Vizier borderline useless. It’s no longer the top but its still in my mind respectable. Its not my first choice but I wouldn’t call it a bad ship either.

    The issue I see is that tanks are not really needed anymore. At one point it was common to call for a tank in a premade HSE group. I don’t think I heard anyone call out for a tank for HSE this year.

    The problem I see is that tanking is now so strong on the none tank ships that the actual tank ships are not needed.
    Even if the enemy are not killed by the high DPS ships the tank is not needed as the DPS ship just shrugs the damage off.
    What difference does it make if the tank pulls the threat away from someone else when that someone else doesn’t need a tank to do that even if they are not in a tank build?


    “Lets remember, the OP is asking for advice on a good ship to buy, we're considering ALL factors in our decision. Price, looks, performance.. all of it. I'll let pottsey answer this question because frankly.. he's the man with this stuff, but I would suspect that there are better ships in the C-Store that all cost less. The one area this ship excels is if you want a Kinetic Boat and you have to have the Sovereign look. Then yes.. this is your ship. That's a very small niche.”
    To be honest as much as count the Vizier within my top favourite 5 ships, if looks are not a factor and I wanted the best ship with command I would look at the Voth Rampart Command Flight Deck Carrier and Styx Terran Dreadnought Cruiser. Behind these two comes the Jem'Hadar Dreadnought Carrier. As much as I love the Assault Cruisers and Vizier in recent years they have fallen behind. All I am arguing against is calling it useless. If you do like the look, the Vizier can make a respectable Mine Layer or torpedo boat and if your willing to get some expensive rare traits it can be turned into a good exotic torpedo boat as well. It wont be the best but it will be respectable. As for is the price worth it. Well I wont go near that with a barge pole.
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,742 Arc User
    edited November 2019
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    To be honest as much as count the Vizier within my top favourite 5 ships, if looks are not a factor and I wanted the best ship with command I would look at the Voth Rampart Command Flight Deck Carrier and Styx Terran Dreadnought Cruiser. Behind these two comes the Jem'Hadar Dreadnought Carrier. As much as I love the Assault Cruisers and Vizier in recent years they have fallen behind. All I am arguing against is calling it useless. If you do like the look, the Vizier can make a respectable Mine Layer or torpedo boat and if your willing to get some expensive rare traits it can be turned into a good exotic torpedo boat as well. It wont be the best but it will be respectable. As for is the price worth it. Well I wont go near that with a barge pole.

    Thanks for the input, that sounds like a pretty fair overall summary. So if someone wants that type of thing and they're willing to get the traits and stuff..then sure, the Vizier is at the very least.. an acceptable choice provided the player finds the cost acceptable.

    If you want to go with an standard energy weapon build, the Archon is probably a slightly better option. At least we found the niche where the Vizier can find a place. As always, your expertise in the area of building a Kinetic Killer is highly appreciated. :smile:
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  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 3,638 Arc User
    edited November 2019
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    To be honest as much as count the Vizier within my top favourite 5 ships, if looks are not a factor and I wanted the best ship with command I would look at the Voth Rampart Command Flight Deck Carrier and Styx Terran Dreadnought Cruiser. Behind these two comes the Jem'Hadar Dreadnought Carrier. As much as I love the Assault Cruisers and Vizier in recent years they have fallen behind. All I am arguing against is calling it useless. If you do like the look, the Vizier can make a respectable Mine Layer or torpedo boat and if your willing to get some expensive rare traits it can be turned into a good exotic torpedo boat as well. It wont be the best but it will be respectable. As for is the price worth it. Well I wont go near that with a barge pole.

    Thanks for the input, that sounds like a pretty fair overall summary. So if someone wants that type of thing and they're willing to get the traits and stuff..then sure, the Vizier is at the very least.. an acceptable choice provided the player finds the cost acceptable.

    If you want to go with an standard energy weapon build, the Archon is probably a slightly better option. At least we found the niche where the Vizier can find a place. As always, your expertise in the area of building a Kinetic Killer is highly appreciated. :smile:
    To add onto my post from a Kinetic/Command ship point of view while the Voth Rampart and Styx are better they can be a little pricy to get. If anyone is looking for a cheaper Command alternative to the Vizier then take a look at the Presidio Tactical Command Battlecruiser in the Cstore. Its vastly cheaper and in a lot of ways very similar to the Vizier plus there are two more variations of the battlecruiser one with a slightly more focus on Engineering and the other Sci. The 3 ship variation pack is cheaper then the full price Vizier.
  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 3,638 Arc User
    edited November 2019
    The real problem of this ship, is that if you buy the mudd store one, the fleet version does not apply the fleet modules discount! I have reported this with support but only got an automatic response.

    So, cryptic is missling with this ship, there are two versions, Z Store and fleet, but it does not apply the discount!

    Sorry for bad english.
    Just spotted this. Its not something I agree with but that's because the original Vizier is not a Cstore ship you buy with ZEN and so it never counted for the discount on modules. The same applies to the Mirror Guardian Cruiser and I think a few others.
  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 12,462 Arc User
    You can actually get T6 Ships for 1,500 Zen each if you buy the Mudd's Market Ship Discount Bundle. Three 100% Discount for 4,500 Zen.
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
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    l don't know.
    l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
    That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
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  • protoneousprotoneous Member Posts: 2,252 Arc User
    edited November 2019
    No one in this game is less of an 'elitist' then Pete.. no one..
    I can honestly say that Peter and some of his friends and fleet mates are solely responsible for nudging me in the proper direction and correcting some acquired bad habits after my own original gang, who through communal knowledge would have played the same role, stopped playing the game.

    Over the years I've met only a small handful of people in-game who are not only very good at what they do, but also carry a message of good cheer, self improvement, and having fun as a team to this degree, even though my own performance is a fraction of their own.

    I would use the term 'a true gentleman' based upon my experience Sea.
  • salazarrazesalazarraze Member Posts: 3,775 Arc User
    edited November 2019
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    “I didn't say that the ship is borderline useless. I said command spec seating is borderline useless. Those are two completely different statements”
    Which I don’t agree with. While command has a lot of rubbish powers it is a long way from borderline useless. I find command is the strongest choice for mine layer builds and one of if not the best choices for exotic torpedo builds. As well as being a great choice for torpedoes boats.
    The Vizier only has one lieutenant commander "universal" slot but it's obviously always used as a sci slot. It has no secondary deflector, no temporal powers and nothing else worth noting. A fully loaded science ship like the Eternal would do a better debuff job and crowd control job to get the best use out of your torps. Even without concentrate firepower which is only one boff power at the end of the day.
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    “Completely unremarkable in any way.”
    Which is wrong as I have some unique builds like the gas cloud exotic build on the Vizier that doesn’t really work as well on other ship that I can think off. Its not just another 4/4 Command ship. Its has a really nice Bridge officer layout and can be built around a gas theme unlike the other ships.
    It's a demonstrable fact that the game is filled with 4/4 cruisers with command spec. If you include 5/3 ships since there's basically no difference in this context, we're talking at least 40 or even 50 ships with a similar or better stats than the Vizier. Could you still make the Vizier a decent/serviceable torp boat? Of course you could. I won't argue against that. But it's not the recommended or preferred way to go. But if you love it, man. You do you.
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    “Sci torp boats are far and away superior to whatever you could do with torps on the vizier.”
    Unless they have command they won’t do anywhere near as well with exotic torpedoes as the Vizier can.
    I'll take a science ship with it's secondary deflector and all their crowd control + science magic to get the best utility out of my torps over the Vizier any day. Specifically, I love the Eternal but if you had to have command spec, then the Son'a sci/command ship is a good choice.
    When you see "TRIBBLE" in my posts, it's because I manually typed "TRIBBLE" and censored myself.
  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 3,638 Arc User
    edited November 2019
    “The Vizier only has one lieutenant commander "universal" slot but it's obviously always used as a sci slot. It has no secondary deflector, no temporal powers and nothing else worth noting”
    As I pointed out before that’s incorrect its not always used as a sci slot. It has two things going for it. The unique gas cloud exotic build that doesn’t work as well on other ships.

    The other thing going for it on top of exotic gas is you can turn any torpedo into an exotic torpedo which can be run alongside the exotic gas build or separate. Exotic torpedoes become double exotic and the Romulan Hyper Torpdeo turns into a special case and does triple exotic. I say double and triple in that you are creating 2 or 3 exotic anomalies every time you fire which are you are doing every 2 seconds. You can put out 20+ exotic anomalies in 10 seconds via torpedoes alone. Then you have the Eject plasma doing something like 15 AoE exotic explosions. This all synergizes with the 2 exotic gas cloud consoles from the Vizier console set. This is a valid and very different exotic play style to sci ships which cannot run like this due to lack of Command, lack of Eject Plasma 3 and lack of the exotic gas console which is Assault Cruisers only.

    One of my most memorable builds for myself was the plasma exotic themed Vizier and I haven't found any other exotic plasma gas themed ships like it. That's why am arguing so strongly its not useless and not just another command ship.

    From an exotic torpedo point of view I find this much better than a full sci ships exotic torps. The Vizier with the right traits should be getting far more out of its exotic torpedoes then what the sci ship without command can do.

    As before I am not saying this is the best ship only that its not useless and can make an respectable exotic build along with the other good builds I mentioned. I fully agree there are better ships out there and I even mentioned some of them. But that doesn't make the ship useless.


  • questeriusquesterius Member Posts: 7,716 Arc User
    edited November 2019
    @pottsey5g
    Is this the expensive trait you're talking about?
    https://sto.gamepedia.com/Trait:_Subspatial_Warheads

    As for the Vizer, i have the Archon with Intel and in my opinion it is at best a mediocre vessel. Now to add in Command instead of Intel...
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  • kronin#4685 kronin Member Posts: 325 Arc User
    When the Vizier first became available, it was as a free code, if you bought a specific miniature for that Star Trek miniatures game. Since I played both STO and this miniatures game, it was kind of like a buy one get one free deal. No brainer, I bought it. Since then, I almost never use the Vizier, because I simply own so many ships that are simply better, or fit my play style better. (I play cruisers.) So, if you're just looking to get a good ship, there are plenty of better options out there. Then again, go to the wiki, and take a good look at it's stats. Do you see an amazing build that only this ship can do? I don't, but that doesn't mean you won't. If I didn't currently own it, I probably wouldn't buy it at current prices, knowing what I know now.
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    warpangel wrote: »
    STO doesn't have a "holy trinity," because nothing in the game is hard enough to need it. Tanking or any other kind of support is simply not needed. This is a fact, nothing to do with "DPS charts." Death comes rarely and when it does, it means nothing. Missions are impossible to lose. All you actually need to do is kill the rubber ducks and/or press 'F' at something, and even that only if the mission isn't timed to auto-win itself regardless of player action. So even trying to avoid death comes down to personal preference. I myself am perfectly content to just respawn if I happen to die.

    For that matter, DPS is only needed like half the time, and then not very much of it either. Simply put, STO just plain doesn't require much.

    So while I have no idea if it's a good ship or not (didn't buy it, since they refused to sell it to romulans), I do know to a 100% certainty it will be more than adequate for all content your average player cares to play and can be made hilariously overpowered by a player who knows what they're doing. All endgame-tier ships can.

    The difficulty is not as important as you think. Even back in the ancient days of the game, before all the power creep, where you could struggle fighting one of those Widrab Cruisers in an Exploration Cluser mission that annoyingly got an invulnerability effect just as you thought you might beat him, it simply didn't have that trinity. It was just not designed with that in mind.
    What's a Widrab Cruiser? I certainly never struggled with anything in an Exploration cluster, except the occasional bugged unwinnable ground map. For that matter, a helpless HP sack getting an invulnerability buff to extend it's inevitable death by a few seconds is not what I'd call struggling.

    Elite STFs were of a decent enough challenge (for the gear level of the time) back when I started playing in 2012, but mostly in terms of mission objectives, never player survival. That is, teams needed the 10% rule to kill the transfos before the spheres get in range in ISE, needed dedicated guards to stop the probes in KSE, etc, but the enemies were already HP sacks then. The challenge was always to drain the enemy HP fast enough, not player survival.

    In the trinity, the purpose of tanks and healers is to keep the DPS alive long enough to kill the enemy. If enemies are weak enough a DPS can stay alive without help, no trinity is needed.
  • darkbladejkdarkbladejk Member Posts: 3,243 Community Moderator
    If you would rather use the word 'bias' I'm fine with that. Your reply to Pete was just out of the box, you were attacking him for points he never made all because he has that little banner in his signature.

    No actually I don't care if folks want to chase DPS and have said so multiple times. What I do take an issue with is if/when someone tries to claim a ship is bad purely because they don't like it or it's not a chart topper, and attempts to assert that notion as established objective fact. Just because one person doesn't like it or it's not as useful to Build A doesn't mean it's a bad ship or can't be utilized by Build B. THAT is my issue, not people chasing DPS.
    I HAVE stated objectively why I feel the ship is a bad option. I have talked about it's value in Zen, I have compared it to other available ships including the one that's the same class (Archon) I have gone over energy weapon and kintetic builds.. others have dissected command vs. Intel.. how much more objectivity do you require? Just because someone disagrees with you, that's not a forum violation. I would ask you to please keep your moderation threats out of this. If you don't want to discuss the issue, I'll accept that and we're cool.. but I won't be bullied by threats of moderation for stating an opinion. Your status is not a weapon, I'll thank you to stop trying to use it as one. I am doing the same thing you are, I am stating my objective opinion.

    First reminding people of the rules is not a threat of moderation. Secondly on that point, if/when moderation is needed I will simply do it and not announce it as that would be discussion of moderation. Disagreeing with me or anyone is not against the rules, gatekeeping and elitism however are. The green text next to my name does not prohibit me from expressing my own thoughts and opinions; it also does not shield you from hearing thoughts and opinions you will disagree with from time to time; nor does me voicing that disagreement mean you are being bullied. So if you really want to push this issue, that whole "weaponizing my position" works both ways. You say you're just voicing your own subjective opinion okay fair enough. Let's look at some of what's been said.
    I'll say it..

    It's not a great ship.

    The Archon is superior and cheaper. If you want to fly a Sovy, fly the Archon.

    This first post here of yours in the thread I can see being taken either way, as an opinion or as though you're trying to assert it as objective fact. This first one without the context of the second post I could see as just being you voicing an opinion. However let's look at that second post.
    It's not that it can't be made to be a viable ship.. of course it can.

    The issue is that for 500 Zen less you can get the Archon which is just.. better.

    Even the battle cloak.. it's a cool idea, but you have to basically waste 3 console slots to get it, it's just not worth it.

    We all accept that any T5U or T6 ship can be made viable for all end game content. I don't believe anyone disputes that, but when you look at the Vizier and compare it to what else is available at that price point, the Vizier is a bad buy.

    It's simply not as good as other ships that are also cheaper. The battle cloak is a gimmick.. this ship is a waste of resources. The only reason this ship has any hype at all is because it was previously unavailable. Now that it's rarity has been removed it simply has nothing left to make it worth while.

    To your credit you at least acknowledge it as a viable choice. However you then go on to try and assert as objective fact that the Archon is better. "The issue is that for 500 Zen less you can get the Archon which is just... better." As I explained prior, not every person in game plays with a goal of pure damage in mind. What is best for you and what you think is subpar, may be a godsend to another type of build or player. If the goal is pure damage, the Archon will lend more tools to such a build via intel as intel focuses on exploiting enemy weakness, where as command is more survival focused and lends some stuff to torps. To you it may not be worth while, but to others it is.
    My reply was to you as you were quoting @peterconnorfirst and accusing HIM of these things. I think we all know I have no control over what Napalm says, he speaks his mind and I'm not responsible for that. The problem is, he said it and then you attacked Pete for it just because you saw that signature banner and decided he was being an 'elitist.' @coldnapalm has said many times that he's not a 'DPS'er' so why are you attacking someone else for his comments?

    You're putting words into Pete's mouth, just so you can attack them. If you take issue with what Napalm says, then by all means retaliate against him.. I think we all know that if anyone here can take it.. it's him.

    You stated no one is trying to say the Vizier is an objectively bad ship, I showed why that was an incorrect statement with Napalm's post. I'm aware of how Napalm operates more than you realize. So I'm purely putting words into someone's mouth eh?
    Yea if u think that ship to be any good for tanking then big congratulations for the lucrative purchase to you. :)

    Unlike DMG dealing it is just too bad that tanking is an activity which is not required for any content we face or we would certainly have a larger player group pursuing it. This activity is sadly not even rewarding in any way.

    Explain this little gem then. Basically according to this post, I'm wrong for saying the Vizier can be a good tank ship because apparently tanking isn't required in any way. So a subjective statement in regards to tanking being asserted as objective fact as to why the ship is apparently bad according to you and him. As for the whole tanking not being required, all I need to do is pull up the top 3 HSE parses and see that someone in there was running as a tank and that's the only reason those people scored so high on those pareses.
    I get what you're saying here, and it's fair. But again, in your example, you're talking about a 'tank' that does 30k. You know how to build a tank, so do I, so for us that's easy.. but the average player in this game doesn't do 30k going 'full DPS.' When they 'tank' it's far far less. Again, you turned that into me somehow saying you have to do 'max DPS' in a tank.. I think 30k is perfectly fine. You argued based on what you assumed I meant.

    I understand that average player skill level is a different conversation for a different thread, and that's fair.. that's the thought that pops into my head when someone says they're 'tanking.' Obviously, the people in this conversation know how to build a STO tank, so all's good there. I still think there are better options for the Zen, but I have already conceded that the ship has a place and that in a certain situation it's better then the Archon. Given the limited role of that scenario coupled with the price, I still believe this ship is a 'bad buy.' If you want to say it can be useful as a tank, I'm willing to go along with that.. sure. Can it tank? It can.. so can the Archon.

    The point behind the 30k example is that a statement was made that "high DPS" is needed to tank. It would appear you and I agree 30k is a respectable number, but I wouldn't call it "high DPS". When someone starts approaching 70k+ is when it gets to high DPS in my mind. Either way I demonstrated by the math that with a tank doing 30k DPS on a budget level tank, 99% of the playerbase is not going to pull from that tank unless they directly taunt the foes as it would require 300k worth of DPS to pull from that tank, something all but a few in the game are not capable of doing just yet. So the idea people need some absurd amount of DPS to tank, even with just the 1000% modifier is a myth by just the math alone.
    When you quote someone and then type a response, you're responding to that person. You have done this to a poster who has done none of these things and then accused them of these forum violations. We have stated objectively why we believe this ship is a bad decision to purchase, it's documented all through this thread. Accusing someone of a forum violation for having a counter opinion is a bad look, I am sure you're not doing it on purpose, but I urge you to take a look at how you're presenting this argument because it's really starting to feel like a Moderator trying to pull the rule card because he doesn't like the other side of the argument.

    I know you won't care, but as someone who knows the person you were replying to, I can just tell you that you got it wrong man. No one in this game is less of an 'elitist' then Pete.. no one.. and it's a shame to see these type of accusations based on simply having a different opinion.

    No, It's not simply a difference of opinion that is the issue or why I made the statements I did. It's that certain folks decided to try and assert it as objective fact that the Vizier is bad simply because they don't like it and it's not a chart topper. Saying "I don't like the ship because I think there's better for doing damage," is perfectly fine. "It's just objectively bad and not a good ship," is not fine. One is fine, the other is not. Otherwise I stand by my statement that some some people can't see the rest of the game for the DPS charts in front of them.
    With all respect to your elaboratness towards tanking what part of it highlights that ship to be particulary good for that role? :)

    I also feel you overstress the aggro element just a lil bit. If your dmg output is right a tank does not even need to bother with it in the avarage STO team while only a fraction of it is needed when you tank it for the league admin team. You can also be assured that way that you contribute towards the reasonable conclusion of a map in any constellation you find yourself in.

    In ISA we never use(ed) tanks for single player records. Yea, in HSE I happen to use it to influence sigle player records but it sadly does not change the fact that 3 power tzunamis ago even there I began to wonder if that makes sense in light of that map if you see it as a team effort. A team is surely faster through without one.

    The ship can be used to DPS, the ship can be used to tank. Unfortunatly there are coutless ships around which can do both better.

    Thats why its not favorable performance wise and BAD if you take the price for it into account. ;)

    What highlights it is the fact that any ship with even the 1000% modifier can perform well as a tank, and in the case of the Vizier it gives a few extra tools to survival being a command ship that you're not going to get with others. I've already explained this once and see no need to do so again. In regards to there being better ships out there, if the goal is pure damage then I agree there are choices that will give more damage oriented tools than command will. In regards to tanking it depends on what you need more of.

    Tanking itself is essentially a triangular spectrum divided into Damage Negation, Damage Recovery, and Threat Generation. At the points each side comes together are the extremes of the spectrum. Where Negation and Recovery meet, you have the nigh unkillable turtles. They have next to nothing in terms of aggro generation, but because of their high damage negation and recovery they can shake off high hits and regenerate the missing stats like nothing happened. Where Recovery and Threat meet you have clay tanks or the "Majin Buu" tanks. They have great threat generation and recovery, but no negation to speak of and are always getting blasted by full force attacks and torn apart like clay, only to pull themselves back together again. This is probably the most unstable tank type there is. On the point where Negation and Threat generation meet you have the "barricade" tanks. They have great levels of Negation and their Threat is covered, but they have no recovery to speak of, and it's just a countdown until they collapse. It's possible for a tank to tip the scales of their build towards one side or the other without hitting the extremes. As far as what is best depends on what they want to do and what type of equipment they're going to work with etc. Very little in this game is set in stone black and white. In the case of the Vizier it provides a good negation and recovery base though may not have the strongest threat generation tools. Likewise something like the Juggernaut has good negation and excellent threat generation, but needs a little extra in the recovery department. Then you have the smaller escorty type ships that have great threat generation, decent recovery potential, but need a bit more in the negation department.

    ISA is a joke compared to HSE now. As far as tanking itself goes, you are aware that you and I both can access the DPS league tables at any time right? All I need to do is look at the top 5 parses for HSE and every single one of them there was someone in there with at least 70% or more of the attacks in. When one looks further into their builds one can see the extra healing and various abilities they're using. One can do the same with the damage dealers in that run as well to see they're running next to nothing in terms of anything tank. So with all that in mind, guess what, all of the top 5 parses have had someone in there tanking. I also talk with a couple of the guys from the top 10 on a semi-regular basis and even then will say they would not have gotten those numbers without a tank being present in the run. So the fact that some of the top parsers needed a tank to pull that off disagrees with you that there is no benefit to having a full tank.
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    Yes being a tank is more then DPS, but DPS is one of the main components to a successful tank. If you ignore DPS chances are you are not a useful tank. Although I am wondering in todays state of the game is there is such a thing as a useful tank :(

    The top 5 parses for HSE in game at the moment would like to have a word with you on that one as far as tanking being useful. As I pointed out to Peter, all one needs to do is pull up the parses and one can see there was a tank present in every single one of those runs. Unless someone just royally outclasses the rest of the group, a 70%+ attacks in, does not occur naturally in a run like that unless someone is deliberately trying to pull threat. Breaking down the parses we can see they are.
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    Not sustained but assuming base 1 damage = 1 threat then yes I often pull way more than 1.75million threat against groups of enemies. It’s pretty common for me to against waves of ships to pull in 5 to 10million threat per group. The last time someone uploaded one of my HSE runs I had something like 15million threat against the big group of cubes at the start. There are a lot of factors like which TFO we are talking about and what area of the TFO we are talking about. For example, The Swarm TFO on Elite there is no point in a tank being anywhere near me as they will pull zero threat at the end of the lanes. Same for the Gauntlet and others. But that’s just if you’re flying with me. That’s not to say its like that for everyone.

    Using our previous calculations, if a tank is sustaining 100k DPS, and if we assume a 1/1 ratio of damage to threat, then our tank pulling 100k is doing as much threat output with a 1000% modifier as someone sustaining 1m DPS. If our tank is doing 100k with the 1750% modifier, he's generating as much threat as someone sustaining 1.75m DPS. So unless you can show me a log of you sustaining 1m-1.75m DPS in an HSE, which is more than 110k-868k higher than top HSE run as it sits right now, I'm calling shenanigans. You might momentarily be able to exceed a tank on specific pulls, but you will not out-threat them overall like you're claiming. I'm sorry but I'm calling shenanigans until you can produce some logs. As I pointed to Peter, I looked at the top 5 logs, and I also talk to some of the guys in the top 10 on a semi-regular basis. If even they are saying they needed a tank in the run to get those high of numbers, yet you're saying tanking isn't needed, what do you think I'm going to believe, the parse data and the word of the people there, or someone who has yet to produce a log? Finally in terms of threat, what matters is how many attacks you have in. If you are pulling in the most attacks out of everyone in the group, then obviously you have threat. At the end of the day the parses do not support your assertions.

    A Vizier is more than capable of pulling 100k with the 1000% modifier, or even the 1300% modifier it would top out at assuming both sci consoles were Amplifiers. To pull from a Vizier tank doing 100k with the 1000% modifier or the 1300% modifier you would need to pull and sustain between 1m-1.3m DPS. So far I've yet to see anyone in game capable of pulling that and sustaining it in HSE. Point I am making is not to under-estimate the ship simply because it's not a chart topper.

    If you don't care for the Vizier beyond a torp boat, then that's fine, you're entitled to that opinion. However to hint that just because you can't see it for much more than that means it's somehow an inferior ship is just plain wrong.

    If people like the ship then it will do you well. If people don't like it then don't buy it. However I stand by my statement that I wish the stigma of a ship being bad simply because it's not a chart topper, or the second coming of the Juggernaut/Scimitars, would die and burn in the fires of Gre'thor already.
    "Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations

    Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,742 Arc User
    edited November 2019
    Every statement of mine that you quoted in that wall of nonsense is an opinion and perfectly within all forum rules.. just like your opinions. You're nit picking one line here and there, and leaving out all the parts where I say why my opinion is what it is. The only difference between how you did it and how I did it was that I did it without calling people names.

    No ones opinion is a forum violation, and we aren't wrong just because we disagree with you. Your whole post is just a big round and round where you nit pick one line here, one line there and ignore anything that doesn't support your argument.

    Further dialogue with you is pointless. We're not going to agree and I think the OP has all the information he needs to make an informed opinion.

    Enjoy your 'awesome' ship.
    animated.gif
    Discovery is good, it's you that sucks.
  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 12,462 Arc User
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
    Judge Dan Haywood
    'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
    l don't know.
    l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
    That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
    Lt. Philip J. Minns
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,952 Arc User
    warpangel wrote: »
    warpangel wrote: »
    STO doesn't have a "holy trinity," because nothing in the game is hard enough to need it. Tanking or any other kind of support is simply not needed. This is a fact, nothing to do with "DPS charts." Death comes rarely and when it does, it means nothing. Missions are impossible to lose. All you actually need to do is kill the rubber ducks and/or press 'F' at something, and even that only if the mission isn't timed to auto-win itself regardless of player action. So even trying to avoid death comes down to personal preference. I myself am perfectly content to just respawn if I happen to die.

    For that matter, DPS is only needed like half the time, and then not very much of it either. Simply put, STO just plain doesn't require much.

    So while I have no idea if it's a good ship or not (didn't buy it, since they refused to sell it to romulans), I do know to a 100% certainty it will be more than adequate for all content your average player cares to play and can be made hilariously overpowered by a player who knows what they're doing. All endgame-tier ships can.

    The difficulty is not as important as you think. Even back in the ancient days of the game, before all the power creep, where you could struggle fighting one of those Widrab Cruisers in an Exploration Cluser mission that annoyingly got an invulnerability effect just as you thought you might beat him, it simply didn't have that trinity. It was just not designed with that in mind.
    What's a Widrab Cruiser? I certainly never struggled with anything in an Exploration cluster, except the occasional bugged unwinnable ground map. For that matter, a helpless HP sack getting an invulnerability buff to extend it's inevitable death by a few seconds is not what I'd call struggling.
    IIRC, Widrab was one of the (i think non-canon) minor species you could encounter. I am talking about some of those NPC Cruisers. I don't think there are currently any in the game. They had some kind of invulnerability ability they could trigger.
    And of course, I am talking of a time when the best gear was Very Rare Mark X, before event he first bridge officer rebalance patch probably. When Science Team still granted shield damage reduction, beam overload affected a single of your beam weapons once, and pretty much half the powers were useless.
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • salazarrazesalazarraze Member Posts: 3,775 Arc User
    edited November 2019
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    “The Vizier only has one lieutenant commander "universal" slot but it's obviously always used as a sci slot. It has no secondary deflector, no temporal powers and nothing else worth noting”
    As I pointed out before that’s incorrect its not always used as a sci slot. It has two things going for it. The unique gas cloud exotic build that doesn’t work as well on other ships.

    The other thing going for it on top of exotic gas is you can turn any torpedo into an exotic torpedo which can be run alongside the exotic gas build or separate. Exotic torpedoes become double exotic and the Romulan Hyper Torpdeo turns into a special case and does triple exotic. I say double and triple in that you are creating 2 or 3 exotic anomalies every time you fire which are you are doing every 2 seconds. You can put out 20+ exotic anomalies in 10 seconds via torpedoes alone. Then you have the Eject plasma doing something like 15 AoE exotic explosions. This all synergizes with the 2 exotic gas cloud consoles from the Vizier console set. This is a valid and very different exotic play style to sci ships which cannot run like this due to lack of Command, lack of Eject Plasma 3 and lack of the exotic gas console which is Assault Cruisers only.

    One of my most memorable builds for myself was the plasma exotic themed Vizier and I haven't found any other exotic plasma gas themed ships like it. That's why am arguing so strongly its not useless and not just another command ship.

    From an exotic torpedo point of view I find this much better than a full sci ships exotic torps. The Vizier with the right traits should be getting far more out of its exotic torpedoes then what the sci ship without command can do.

    As before I am not saying this is the best ship only that its not useless and can make an respectable exotic build along with the other good builds I mentioned. I fully agree there are better ships out there and I even mentioned some of them. But that doesn't make the ship useless.
    Fair enough. I respect your opinion on this specific niche ship build. However, I'm speaking generally about command spec when I say "borderline useless." Again, that's a very VERY different statement than saying the Vizier itself is useless which it obviously not what I said. It's not a Samsar after all. I'll also concede that I said the console set is useless but I'll take your word that it isn't.
    When you see "TRIBBLE" in my posts, it's because I manually typed "TRIBBLE" and censored myself.
  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 3,638 Arc User
    edited December 2019
    “The top 5 parses for HSE in game at the moment would like to have a word with you on that one as far as tanking being useful. As I pointed out to Peter, all one needs to do is pull up the parses and one can see there was a tank present in every single one of those runs. Unless someone just royally outclasses the rest of the group, a 70%+ attacks in, does not occur naturally in a run like that unless someone is deliberately trying to pull threat. Breaking down the parses we can see they are.”
    How do you know those are tanks and not DPSers? I never said 100% of runs are done without a tank. What I said is many of the runs that look like they are being done with a tank are not real tanks. Many of the runs are not tanking players in tanking builds in tanking ships even if it looks like they are via the combat log.

    Which is the problem when talking about content in general, DPS ships can tank so strongly without even fitting tanking consoles that they normally don’t need a tanking player in a tanking ship with a tanking build to cover them.

    Just because someone is pulling threat it doesn’t mean they are a tank in a tank build. I often run with 100% to 300% threat and often absorb 1million+ damage with 50% to 75% attacks in, but I am not what I would call a tank player in a tank ship with a tank build.

    It looks like most of my scores have been deleted and I don’t self-upload often so there is a lack of examples. But take a look at the ISA run with 103.72k DPS. It looks like I am tanking and the tank player. But it’s an example of what I am talking about. I had zero tanking consoles, traits or doffs fitted. It doesn't feel right to call me a real tank.


    “unless you can show me a log of you sustaining 1m-1.75m DPS in an HSE, which is more than 110k-868k higher than top HSE run as it sits right now, I'm calling shenanigans. You might momentarily be able to exceed a tank on specific pulls”
    That’s not how it works, people do not need a tank for the last half of HSE. I start off with 10+million threat by the time the tanking player has pulled enough threat to pull it away from me the most intense deadly area of HSE is over. I wasn’t talking about HSE only either, but the game in general.

    Come join me in something like the Swarm Elite TFO. Sit at an end of a lane next to me and I would be extremely surprised if that 1750% modifier threat pulling tank managed to pull any decent threat at all. Same for the gauntlet/Peril over Pahvo. Not only is the tank player not needed but chances are the tank is going to pull no threat away from me. I don’t have a problem with people playing tank builds. But I do question how useful it is in most content in todays state of the game. In my expreince real tanking has fallen on the wayside for the most part.


    “If you don't care for the Vizier beyond a torp boat, then that's fine, you're entitled to that opinion. However to hint that just because you can't see it for much more than that means it's somehow an inferior ship is just plain wrong.”
    I never hinted it cannot be used as much more then a torpedo boat. I thought I was clear in saying it can be used as an Exotic boat and a reasonable tank and reasonable healer. While I question how useful tanking for other players is in todays state of the game, I never said the Vizier cannot be used as a tank/healer. Although its not the top ship for that role it can be used for that. The Vizier is not a chart topper but I did say its in my top 5 favourite ships to fly.

    Fair enough. I respect your opinion on this specific niche ship build. However, I'm speaking generally about command spec when I say "borderline useless." Again, that's a very VERY different statement than saying the Vizier itself is useless which it obviously not what I said. It's not a Samsar after all. I'll also concede that I said the console set is useless but I'll take your word that it isn't.
    Thank you and calling my builds niche builds is reasonable. I have no problems with that. As for the console set I think its fair to say it has limited use. To be fair outside of a few niche builds the consoles are not going to be used much.
  • darkbladejkdarkbladejk Member Posts: 3,243 Community Moderator
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    How do you know those are tanks and not DPSers? I never said 100% of runs are done without a tank. What I said is many of the runs that look like they are being done with a tank are not real tanks. Many of the runs are not tanking players in tanking builds in tanking ships even if it looks like they are via the combat log.

    Which is the problem when talking about content in general, DPS ships can tank so strongly without even fitting tanking consoles that they normally don’t need a tanking player in a tanking ship with a tanking build to cover them.

    Just because someone is pulling threat it doesn’t mean they are a tank in a tank build. I often run with 100% to 300% threat and often absorb 1million+ damage with 50% to 75% attacks in, but I am not what I would call a tank player in a tank ship with a tank build.

    It looks like most of my scores have been deleted and I don’t self-upload often so there is a lack of examples. But take a look at the ISA run with 103.72k DPS. It looks like I am tanking and the tank player. But it’s an example of what I am talking about. I had zero tanking consoles, traits or doffs fitted. It doesn't feel right to call me a real tank.

    Well first off you actually said a couple of things in regards to tanking.
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    What peterconnorfirst means I believe are two things. The first is when talking about group work the mechanics of the game are setup that you have to do DPS to tank. A tank without DPS cannot tank in groups. That’s just a fact of how the game mechanics work. Tanking involves doing high DPS.

    The other is that full tanks have not been useful or needed in years. Those tank ships you are talking about in those DPS runs are not real tank ships for the most part. Those DPS ships wouldn’t get cut down to tissue paper without the tank player there as those DPS ships are the tank. They are tanking via the bare minimum of every day tanking gear combined with healing via DPS.
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    I think you might be misunderstanding what is being said. Those pure DPS class cannons ships are not class cannons anymore. They are very strong tanks with the bare minimum of tanking equipment and easy to get equipment at that. Due to that, real tanks in the group are normally not useful or really needed. I cannot think of any area of the game left that requires or benefits from a real full tank ship. The thing is you don’t need to go middle of the road anymore. You can stay right up there in near max DPS builds and still have enough tank for pretty much everything.

    I've bolded a few of the more interesting parts. That's just a couple of examples. In the first one you claimed "real tanks" have not been needed in years or even useful. You then go on to claim some of the ships in these modern runs are in fact "very strong tanks" thus contradicting yourself. You tried to explain your way out of it by saying below:
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    Nether, I stated they are not real tank ships but still tank without a problem. Meaning real tank ships are not needed. Using myself as an example as its easier for me.

    My current ship has zero tanking traits, often zero tanking consoles, zero Bridge officers that passively boost tanking. Sometimes I even run it with zero healing bridge officers though it has a few minor ones at the moment. Would you call that a real tank ship? I wouldn’t even though it can tank just fine on Advanced/Elite absorbing 1million+ damage.

    The same applies to those high DPS runs. Many if not all those ships you are looking at and calling tank ships are not real tank ships. They are DPS ships. Those ships tanking 1 or 2 million incoming DPS are not tanks. Which is the problem they are tanking absolutely fine and so don’t need a real tank run by another player to run as a tank and pull aggro :(

    In the first bolded portion of the block above you tried to have it both ways by saying they're not real tanks but still tank without a problem. I thought, maybe you're trying to describe an off-tank. An off tank is someone whose primary role is not that of a tank but has the capability to serve as a tank. Some of the call signs of an off-tank are those who are tanks but slant more towards the DPS side of the tank/dps spectrum than standard tanks. Or in other words they slant heavily towards the threat generation side while having a balance of their remaining powers being negation and recovery oriented. typically an off-tank is someone who tilts 60-70% DPS with the remaining being tanking type powers. An off-tank is still a tank but more of a "backup" type of tank. That's what I thought you were trying to describe, however down below in the third part of the block, you state plainly they are DPS ships and not real tanks, so that shot my off-tank theory out of the water and contradicted your earlier statement about them being "strong tanks".
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    Not sustained but assuming base 1 damage = 1 threat then yes I often pull way more than 1.75million threat against groups of enemies. It’s pretty common for me to against waves of ships to pull in 5 to 10million threat per group. The last time someone uploaded one of my HSE runs I had something like 15million threat against the big group of cubes at the start. There are a lot of factors like which TFO we are talking about and what area of the TFO we are talking about. For example, The Swarm TFO on Elite there is no point in a tank being anywhere near me as they will pull zero threat at the end of the lanes. Same for the Gauntlet and others. But that’s just if you’re flying with me. That’s not to say its like that for everyone.

    Saying that, the above is kind of irrelevant. My point isn’t about pulling threat. I do agree the Vizier can make a reasonable tank and reasonable healer and I would never call the Vizier borderline useless. It’s no longer the top but its still in my mind respectable. Its not my first choice but I wouldn’t call it a bad ship either.

    The issue I see is that tanks are not really needed anymore. At one point it was common to call for a tank in a premade HSE group. I don’t think I heard anyone call out for a tank for HSE this year.

    The problem I see is that tanking is now so strong on the none tank ships that the actual tank ships are not needed.
    Even if the enemy are not killed by the high DPS ships the tank is not needed as the DPS ship just shrugs the damage off.
    What difference does it make if the tank pulls the threat away from someone else when that someone else doesn’t need a tank to do that even if they are not in a tank build?

    For the bolded and italicized section I can tell you exactly why you haven't see as many calls for tanks, or people in general, most of the record setters are running with pre-made groups and aren't pugging people from the channels. Several of them will tell you they roll pre-mades for their records, and even then you can spot this from their parses by everyone always being the same even if the individual toon isn't. The fact that you are not seeing the call-outs doesn't mean that dedicated tanking is dead like your original claim, it simply means you're not seeing it.

    In regards to the plain bolded section, we can determine from parses that it's not a straight 1/1 ratio of threat to damage however that wasn't the point and was purely an assumption of 1/1 to keep the numbers simple for people to understand. To pull from a tank doing 100k DPS that has a 1000% threat boost or a 1750% threat boost, you would need to pull and sustain 10-17.5 times the amount of damage the tank is doing to pull from them without taunting. That means every second that tank is putting out as much threat as someone doing over 1m-1.75m DPS. That means based on just pure math, if you wished to overtake the tank and pull from them without taunting foes directly, you would need to pump your DPS up past the amount of threat that tank is doing. Unless you're somehow able to push 1m-1.75m and sustain it, you're not pulling from that tank based on pure math alone. If you're saying you are capable of pulling from a tank cranking that much threat without taunting from them directly, this would mean you're pulling 110k-868k more DPS than even the highest HSE parse in game, and I'm sorry but I simply do not see evidence of that. If you wish to present evidence you are doing that, then I will gladly retract my statement, and it would also mean you're at the top of the DPS leaderboards.


    Now getting back to your very first bit I quoted, I pointed all of that out to setup for a few points. As to how I know those people are using dedicated tanks in the top 5 or so HSE parses is that I talk to some of them semi-regularly and have said they couldn't get those numbers without a tank. They have also said as much in some of their own content they put out there for people. Not only this but I can pull up the parse and dissect their build to see 90% of what they're running. About the only things you can't tell from a parse is the exact ship a person is using, and also the grade of equipment they're using. Those same people have also said that if a tank isn't with them, then they have to compensate by equipping a fair amount of survival/tank gear. I think they would know better than the both of us what they used and didn't in that regard. So the fact that they're saying they used real tanks, the parse data shows the ships are geared for tanking specifically even if being tilted more towards an off-tank, it means that yes tanks ARE required for certain bits of content and if you want to set certain records. Hive Space ELITE is not the same as Infected Space ADVANCED. Elite deals out far more damage than it used to, 40% more at the minimum. You need more than just the protomatter consoles and a few little regen boosters if you're going to tank HSE now. Advanced is not on the same level as the new Elite.

    It took me a moment to find the parses of yours on the league tables and I saw the one you mentioned, and also a L/R you apparently did at some point for a 132.4k. In that run, you and the guy above you severely outclassed the others in that run and even then it was an even split between you and dude almost for threat telling me you had 2 people in there fighting for threat even if unintentional. In your 103k run which was a 3/2 split on the log, you again severely outclassed between you and another guy in there. The fact the firepower was so uneven throws the numbers off quite a bit in terms of threat. Plus you also stated you typically run a 200-300% threat boost, which makes no sense unless you're trying to cheese a trait or something. Based off those 2 parses and your statements, I wouldn't call you a real tank either. You and another person simply outclassed the group both times which contaminates the results big time.
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    That’s not how it works, people do not need a tank for the last half of HSE. I start off with 10+million threat by the time the tanking player has pulled enough threat to pull it away from me the most intense deadly area of HSE is over. I wasn’t talking about HSE only either, but the game in general.

    That's not what some of the folks in the top HSE parses who you and I have been deferring to have said. You're not out of danger simply because you killed the cubes in HSE, you're just out of the most concentrated amount of it. The 2 pickle ships can still lance you if you're out of position, and can still blast you with torp spreads even if you're in position. You also still need someone to keep the Queen's attention so she doesn't kick your group below the belt. Your claim was that the need for dedicated tanking had basically been killed off. I showed you examples of when tanking is necessary. On this I have also explained why mathematically my formula above is correct and see no need to repeat it again.

    To further drive my point home in regards to the math, thankfully the parsers do give us an idea of the amount of threat being generated. If you look at my parse for ISA at 123k, you can see I was generating 13087 threat per second. The other 4 guys combined were dealing 10484. That means there was not enough damage across the others in that run to pull from me. I say that not to be airheaded but to demonstrate my point that I was never in any danger of losing threat.
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    I never hinted it cannot be used as much more then a torpedo boat. I thought I was clear in saying it can be used as an Exotic boat and a reasonable tank and reasonable healer. While I question how useful tanking for other players is in todays state of the game, I never said the Vizier cannot be used as a tank/healer. Although its not the top ship for that role it can be used for that. The Vizier is not a chart topper but I did say its in my top 5 favourite ships to fly.

    Like I've been saying, in terms of tanking it depends on what's needed. Is the person looking for additional survival or threat generation or damage. If they're looking for more survival the Vizier is a good choice. If they want more threat generation potential, then there are choices out there that will give more tools to such a build than the Vizier will.
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    Come join me in something like the Swarm Elite TFO. Sit at an end of a lane next to me and I would be extremely surprised if that 1750% modifier threat pulling tank managed to pull any decent threat at all. Same for the gauntlet/Peril over Pahvo. Not only is the tank player not needed but chances are the tank is going to pull no threat away from me. I don’t have a problem with people playing tank builds. But I do question how useful it is in most content in todays state of the game. In my expreince real tanking has fallen on the wayside for the most part.

    On this point again, you may not see a need for real tanking, but I have given you examples of when it's absolutely needed, and demonstrated as much by pointing to certain parses. For what you do on average in game, you might not need a dedicated tank. However what you do in game is not necessarily reflective of everyone else's experience. There are some people who run HSE and similar queues quite often that are far more experienced with them than either you or I, and they are saying they use tanks and that they couldn't do some of those records without a tank. That's their words, not mine.

    Lastly, I don't mind running stuff with folks if they spot me in game or manage to get up with me. However I have nothing to prove to you or anyone in here. I've pointed you towards parse data from the top runs demonstrating my point in regards to tanking. I have also provided you with data from my own parses showing I was never in any danger of losing threat. Not to mention there are plenty of videos out there of me routinely holing threat over a crew of people, and against a good friend of mine who more than exceeds me in damage. I don't care to produce something additional to show the effectiveness of the Vizier as a tank, in fact I have something in the works already. Otherwise like I said, I have nothing else to prove to anyone. If you feel my data is in error or otherwise it's incumbent on you to prove somehow my data and otherwise is flawed or show how I am wrong since you've made the assertion.
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  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 12,462 Arc User
    Will no one rid me of this turbulent Thread?
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
    Judge Dan Haywood
    'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
    l don't know.
    l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
    That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
    Lt. Philip J. Minns
  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,210 Arc User
    edited December 2019
    ltminns wrote: »
    Will no one rid me of this turbulent Thread?

    Yep please, I learned a great lesson here.

    When the OP asked his question I was afraid to answer and then I saw Sea do it. He had the balls and BAM hit the minefield.

    Next time if a such a question is being asked from a newbee I think its best to just go ahead with "yea its such a great ship! Good at DPS and and the verry best tank in game!!! Go get it."

    Its not my 14k zen to trash anyway. ;)
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  • lasoniolasonio Member Posts: 451 Arc User
    ltminns wrote: »
    Will no one rid me of this turbulent Thread?

    Lol, i suppose you're right. The question has been answered long ago and has now devolved into pablum. There really is nothing more to add to it; only to take away. So at this point I would assume the conversation should end before it becomes camp A vs Camp B since both people are saying generally the same things just not in a way that assuages the other. Almost like two ships passing in the fog, they will never meet at any point even if they are at he same coordinates.

    Almost like climate denial, you have 90% of the scientist agreeing on one thing but that other 10 percent, for whatever reason just can't be suade.
    Even god rested. No work ethic.
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,742 Arc User
    edited December 2019
    ltminns wrote: »
    Will no one rid me of this turbulent Thread?

    Yep please, I learned a great lesson here.

    When the OP asked his question I was afraid to answer and then I saw Sea do it. He had the balls and BAM hit the minefield.

    Next time if a such a question is being asked from a newbee I think its best to just go ahead with "yea its such a great ship! Good at DPS and and the verry best tank in game!!! Go get it."

    Its not my 14k zen to trash anyway. ;)

    Me too man..

    You can post on this forum that water is wet and someone would post a 20 page dissertation why you're wrong.

    From now on, everything is great.. there is no such thing as a bad anything.. just buy EVERYTHING.. ALWAYS!

    Lesson learned for sure. I apologize for my part in getting you involved, you would think by now that I would know better.

    It's on me.
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    Discovery is good, it's you that sucks.
  • baddmoonrizinbaddmoonrizin Member Posts: 7,036 Community Moderator
    Well, people could just stop responding and eventually the thread will die. :mrgreen:
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  • foxrockssocksfoxrockssocks Member Posts: 2,461 Arc User
    lasonio wrote: »
    ltminns wrote: »
    Will no one rid me of this turbulent Thread?


    Almost like climate denial, you have 90% of the scientist agreeing on one thing but that other 10 percent, for whatever reason just can't be suade.

    Probably because what the media says about science is rarely ever true, and they are happy to repeat nonsense and widely debunked claims towards their political ends, as well as making up nonsense terms to go along with them. The 97% consensus is a total myth from a terrible study done by a cartoonist, but it sure suits the narrative so why not parrot it?. Actual science has nothing to do with consensus, as Copernicus, Galileo, and Einstein taught us.



    In this thread are a lot of different ideas, many are not even mutually exclusive. There is no one right answer when everyone is talking past each other arguing different points.

    Is the Vizier good at its price point? Nope. Is it good for an unusual exotic build? Yep. Is it good for max DPS? Nope. Is it good for completing advanced queues? Any ship can.

    I think that is a fair summary of the important points of the thread regarding the ship.
  • thunderfoot#5163 thunderfoot Member Posts: 4,332 Arc User
    So, after slogging through this thread to the end, all I can say is:
    "Everything is Awesome!"
    Nope. It ain't Discovery. Ain't Picard, either. It's you.
  • lasoniolasonio Member Posts: 451 Arc User
    ltminns wrote: »
    Will no one rid me of this turbulent Thread?

    Yep please, I learned a great lesson here.

    When the OP asked his question I was afraid to answer and then I saw Sea do it. He had the balls and BAM hit the minefield.

    Next time if a such a question is being asked from a newbee I think its best to just go ahead with "yea its such a great ship! Good at DPS and and the verry best tank in game!!! Go get it."

    Its not my 14k zen to trash anyway. ;)

    Me too man..

    You can post on this forum that water is wet and someone would post a 20 page dissertation why you're wrong.

    From now on, everything is great.. there is no such thing as a bad anything.. just buy EVERYTHING.. ALWAYS!

    Lesson learned for sure. I apologize for my part in getting you involved, you would think by now that I would know better.

    It's on me.

    I most certainly do not agree with either of these responses.

    Personally, it's quite child like and is unbecoming of any one to submit to that level. It would do such a disservice to a player new or old that it would actually be better to not respond at all then to have a disingenuous response.

    It is not the new players fault that two vets in two different camps are arguing over an issue that is really a non issue. So to lead a player down the wrong path or a hurtful path is worse then not saying anything at all. At least if you don't say anything they will look elsewhere until they get the answer from a dog with a little more fight. But if you just say, "Eh, that's great, throw that good money after bad, you got this." Then they will take that boilerplate answer and run with it. Leading to failure and inevitably quitting the game and bad mouthing the community and game making the whole a lesser. Bad juju.

    There was nothing wrong with your answers. They were correct. Validated and probed and studied by many different minds. You both came from two different angles and reached the same conclusion. The same conclusion I came to. So you're not wrong, your argument is correct. People do not have to agree with you. It's irrelevant to the point. The point isn't to make people side with you its to present an argument to the op the pros the cons and your personal suggestions and if the op isn't satisfied then that's on them. They are only kicking tires.

    Personally this kind of response undermines legacies and trust and should never be reared. I personally would like to say to both of you, step back, breath, shrug and let what will be will be. I do it all the time. Not everyone has to agree with everything I say, it doesn't make me more or less and that's the attitude you should take. I present my view of it, like it hate it, whatever, that's just additional food for thought. It's a lot better then nothing and way better then this defeatist one. It's very unbecoming and quite the ugly color to wear.

    Ah and also, I feel the emotional drain is between two things, either too much respect for the opponent and or too much pride in ones own assertions as if to say, i am me, so I must be right. I am right about ABC so listen to me about D. Also Too much of this Distinguished gentleman, Good sir, great colleague stuff going on as well. Very strange. Could be wrong but thats how I feel. Has nothing to do with the game so its irrelevant.

    Anyways, continue doing what you both are doing, if someone dissents so what, its not the end of the world. Everyone doesn't have to validate you with a nod and a here here good chap. We are right and we are wrong. If not then cryptic can remove the forum and replace it with a FAQ or something.
    Even god rested. No work ethic.
  • darkbladejkdarkbladejk Member Posts: 3,243 Community Moderator
    The point I was making is not "everything is always great and you must buy it." My point has been that there is no such thing as a winner take all "best" ship, only ships that lend more tools to certain kinds of builds than others. You could make a science build on a ship with only 2 science powers, but you will not get nearly as much mileage as you would from a ship that had say 7 science power slots. You could in theory make a drain build using antiproton weapons, but you will get more mileage if you used polaron or tetryon as 2 examples. That does not make the ship with 2 science powers or the antiproton weapons objectively bad, it simply means they're not the best choice for those 2 types of builds. In the case of the Vizier if the goal is pure damage then the Vizier won't lend you as many damage oriented tools as the Archon will. That doesn't make the Vizier a bad ship or objectively bad, it simply means it's not tailored for a pure damage setup. Ships in this game are like turtle shells with varying base properties, with those base properties being more friendly to certain kinds of builds than others.

    Simply because Shell A isn't as friendly to Build A does not make Shell A an objectively bad choice that even Builds C D E F and G should avoid, it simply means it's not tailored to be as friendly to Build A. If folks want to say "I think it's a bad buy because it's not as friendly to Build A and there are better choices if you want Build A," that's fine. What is wholly uncool is if someone asserts "it's objectively bad because it doesn't do much for Build A. Yeah Builds B C D E F and G can do better with it, those build types aren't needed so it's objectively bad all around." Both are opinions with one being cool, the other not. Folks are allowed to voice their opinions in the positive or negative as to why they like or dislike certain things, just don't expect to go unchallenged if others disagree as they have as much right to voice their disagreement as you do your thoughts. Especially don't try to assert that just because you like it the item is objectively good or bad like alot of people try to do with Discovery. You're allowed to like or dislike it, but that doesn't automatically make it good or bad. THAT was my issue.
    "Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations

    Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 3,638 Arc User
    edited December 2019
    darkbladejk you are misunderstanding what I am trying to say. You are arguing against a different point to what I was trying to get across. Perhaps it’s me explaining my position poorly but your talk about off-tank and picking out specialised Elite DPS runs shows me that we are crossing wires and you are not understanding my position correctly.

    I also don’t agree on threat as I don’t need to sustain 1m-1.75m DPS to break the tanks threat. That’s not how it works in game. But none of this dedicated tank talk really has anything to do with the Vizier.

    As we are both bothering other people in the thread perhaps its best if we both drop the tank talk. We can either move on which I can understand if that's what you want to do or if you like we can start afresh via PM and I will try to explained myself more clearly. Ignoring the price factor we are both arguing for the Vizier not against it.
This discussion has been closed.