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Discovery/Tardigrade case dismissed

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  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,460 Arc User
    edited September 2019
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    Do you actually have proof he was forced? Because that isn't what he was saying.
    Of course Moonves isn't saying that. He's a terrible human being, not an idiot. If he hadn't been forced out, then absent a criminal conviction CBS wouldn't have been able to void his contract and avoid paying him that rather sizeable severance.

    And the question remains: If you hate CBS and everything about it because of Moonves, why don't you hate Star Trek and everything about it because of Roddenberry?
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  • baddmoonrizinbaddmoonrizin Member Posts: 10,897 Community Moderator
    Ummm... Perhaps that argument belongs in another thread.
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  • khan5000khan5000 Member Posts: 3,008 Arc User
    Anyway back on topic...

    ....you cannot trademark characters unless the characters is unique. This is why Family Guy and The Simpsons aren’t sued by The Flintstones over dumb, fat patriarch with smarter attractive wife.
    If the rules were that stringent The Orville wouldn’t have made it past the first episode(having been sued by CBS).
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    khan5000 wrote: »
    Anyway back on topic...

    ....you cannot trademark characters unless the characters is unique. This is why Family Guy and The Simpsons aren’t sued by The Flintstones over dumb, fat patriarch with smarter attractive wife.
    If the rules were that stringent The Orville wouldn’t have made it past the first episode(having been sued by CBS).
    Yeah, the core problem with Anas's case is that he made a pile of incidental similarities that are not worthy of protection under IP laws. Making a case based on that just doesn't work.
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  • oldravenman3025oldravenman3025 Member Posts: 1,892 Arc User
    khan5000 wrote: »
    Anyway back on topic...

    ....you cannot trademark characters unless the characters is unique. This is why Family Guy and The Simpsons aren’t sued by The Flintstones over dumb, fat patriarch with smarter attractive wife.
    If the rules were that stringent The Orville wouldn’t have made it past the first episode(having been sued by CBS).



    Anybody who says that the developer didn't have a leg to stand on are either in need of a trip to VisionWorks for new glasses, haven't bothered to follow the case/find out the relevant information, or is a rabid Discovery fanboi. There was more to the lawsuit than somebody trying to "copyright tardigrades". In fact, there were too many similarities to be mere coincidental, in my view. As someone who has a background in law, and looking at the evidence, Abdin did have a legitimate complaint against CBS. The judge just didn't think it was similar enough to find in his favor.

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  • oldravenman3025oldravenman3025 Member Posts: 1,892 Arc User
    khan5000 wrote: »
    Anyway back on topic...

    ....you cannot trademark characters unless the characters is unique. This is why Family Guy and The Simpsons aren’t sued by The Flintstones over dumb, fat patriarch with smarter attractive wife.
    If the rules were that stringent The Orville wouldn’t have made it past the first episode(having been sued by CBS).
    Yeah, the core problem with Anas's case is that he made a pile of incidental similarities that are not worthy of protection under IP laws. Making a case based on that just doesn't work.


    If it was just one or two, and taken individually on a case by case basis, you would be correct. But all of the similarities taken as a whole, and compared, I disagree. There was enough there for a valid complaint.
  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,963 Arc User
    edited September 2019
    khan5000 wrote: »
    Anyway back on topic...

    ....you cannot trademark characters unless the characters is unique. This is why Family Guy and The Simpsons aren’t sued by The Flintstones over dumb, fat patriarch with smarter attractive wife.
    If the rules were that stringent The Orville wouldn’t have made it past the first episode(having been sued by CBS).



    Anybody who says that the developer didn't have a leg to stand on are either in need of a trip to VisionWorks for new glasses, haven't bothered to follow the case/find out the relevant information, or is a rabid Discovery fanboi. There was more to the lawsuit than somebody trying to "copyright tardigrades". In fact, there were too many similarities to be mere coincidental, in my view. As someone who has a background in law, and looking at the evidence, Abdin did have a legitimate complaint against CBS. The judge just didn't think it was similar enough to find in his favor.

    Abdin's game itself also has a lot of similarities to Stargate and Dune. Does that mean he plagiarized them? Should MGM and the Herbert estate look into him? That would be funny.
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  • smokebaileysmokebailey Member Posts: 4,668 Arc User
    starswordc wrote: »
    khan5000 wrote: »
    Anyway back on topic...

    ....you cannot trademark characters unless the characters is unique. This is why Family Guy and The Simpsons aren’t sued by The Flintstones over dumb, fat patriarch with smarter attractive wife.
    If the rules were that stringent The Orville wouldn’t have made it past the first episode(having been sued by CBS).



    Anybody who says that the developer didn't have a leg to stand on are either in need of a trip to VisionWorks for new glasses, haven't bothered to follow the case/find out the relevant information, or is a rabid Discovery fanboi. There was more to the lawsuit than somebody trying to "copyright tardigrades". In fact, there were too many similarities to be mere coincidental, in my view. As someone who has a background in law, and looking at the evidence, Abdin did have a legitimate complaint against CBS. The judge just didn't think it was similar enough to find in his favor.

    Abdin's game itself also has a lot of similarities to Stargate and Dune. Does that mean he plagiarized them? Should MGM and the Herbert estate look into him? That would be funny.

    Don't give another corporation any more ideas, please.
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  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,963 Arc User
    > @smokebailey said:
    > (Quote)
    >
    > Don't give another corporation any more ideas, please.

    Maybe if you lay off the wacky baccy for a bit, you'll notice I was being sarcastic. His cr@ppy point-and-click game has about as many similarities to Dune and Stargate as it does to Discovery.

    You are entitled to not like the series, but it's getting a third season. Get over it.
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  • smokebaileysmokebailey Member Posts: 4,668 Arc User
    khan5000 wrote: »
    Anyway back on topic...

    ....you cannot trademark characters unless the characters is unique. This is why Family Guy and The Simpsons aren’t sued by The Flintstones over dumb, fat patriarch with smarter attractive wife.
    If the rules were that stringent The Orville wouldn’t have made it past the first episode(having been sued by CBS).



    Anybody who says that the developer didn't have a leg to stand on are either in need of a trip to VisionWorks for new glasses, haven't bothered to follow the case/find out the relevant information, or is a rabid Discovery fanboi. There was more to the lawsuit than somebody trying to "copyright tardigrades". In fact, there were too many similarities to be mere coincidental, in my view. As someone who has a background in law, and looking at the evidence, Abdin did have a legitimate complaint against CBS. The judge just didn't think it was similar enough to find in his favor.

    1g9uUE1.jpg

    Bingo.

    Looking at the game, Tardigrades....not just the big, blue Tardigrade that travels in space and time, though it is a big part.....look at the characters.

    Homosexual ethnic doctor

    His blonde boy friend

    A frizzy haired ginger

    A black woman who was an inmate

    And Abdin's friends, when Disco started airing, were the ones who said to him, "They made your game into their star trek show!"...it was several folks who had to bring it up to Abdin....meaning this is not just one person's word against CBS.
    Too many 'coincidences' for it to be coincidence. I could easily see the Disco writers, pressed for time (even the guy playing Lorca recently said the Disco producers and writers "Had no tribbling clue what they are doing"), sees the Tardigrade game and go, "Hey, let's use this game for the story....it's an indie game...not like someone's going to notice, right"?

    My take on this, along with CBS (and their nerve to do what they did to fanfilms, yet do all this).....I can pick just ONE word for the 'success' of Kurtzman and the other couple of dozen producers and writers of Disco:



    Lucky.





    To me, Kurtzman and company are the ones in the wrong. I also wonder if someone at CBS did not grease the judge's palm with some $. It has happened in the past. Same with Hollywood stealing people's ideas and saying it made it itself....this ain't the first time, and sadly, probably not going to be the last, either.
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  • rattler2rattler2 Member, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 58,577 Community Moderator
    So... by that logic he should sue ANYONE who fits that broad description of people, and no one can use that particular set of features together.

    Too vague and too broad a stroke.

    It was explained in DETAIL how certain things cannot be protected, and how other things were just too vague. Just let it go already!
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  • foxman00foxman00 Member Posts: 1,508 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    So... by that logic he should sue ANYONE who fits that broad description of people, and no one can use that particular set of features together.

    Too vague and too broad a stroke.

    It was explained in DETAIL how certain things cannot be protected, and how other things were just too vague. Just let it go already!

    I also like how he said CBS must have greased the judges hand. We have majorily crossed the neutral zone and into Tin Foil hat terrority here :)
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  • khan5000khan5000 Member Posts: 3,008 Arc User
    Oh sweet Kahless....
    You can’t trademark “ethnic doctor”.
    You can’t trademark “his TRIBBLE blonde boyfriend.”
    You can’t trademark “frizzy haired ginger”
    You can’t trademark “black lady inmate”

    You can’t trademark “tardegrades”

    Are they similar? Sure but I’m also pretty sure that any one or three of those descriptions are also characters on any tv drama currently on tv.
    You can’t sue for coincidence. You can’t sue for similarities. If you could the Flintstones people could have sued for any show with “fat dumb husband and attractive smart wife”...though they could have been sued by the Honeymooners people.

    The other major point is they couldn’t prove that CBS got the idea from the game.
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  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,963 Arc User
    @duncanidaho11 pretty much called it when the news about the lawsuit first broke.
    angrytarg wrote: »
    I don't think they got a case, as you have to very deliberately and selectively pick on things that might resemble DSC, the trailer meant to showcase the game has little resemblance to the show.​​

    It was also released July, 2017; the same month CBS debuted the extended Discovery trailer which included scenes involving the Tardigrade. :/

    Also, if you look at the development thread for the game, this trailer has little to do with most of what's been shown for said game (I did a little research when this came up in the main Age of Discovery thread.) It should be noted that:
    • The game has yet to be released or publicly tested. Development started a few years ago (under the name "Epoch") with infrequent updates marking progress. What we have are individual frames, test animations, and vague trailers on youtube (of disconnected tone and content.) Only one item (the July 2017 trailer) includes a Tardigrade as more than just a logo. Prior: the dev was posting Egyptian architecture, market stalls, nude cave diving, a questionable shower scene, a bit with an old man in a brown robe (venerable monk?), abstract wormhole FX (including what appears to be another plane of reality) generic sci-fi interiors, and some verdant green exteriors. If replication had been attempted during DSC's production, it would have been impractical to anticipate where the game would go with its July trailer (nothing I've found foreshadowed the presence of large Tardigrades or their direct involvement with FTL travel, the focus was on sci-fi ancient Egypt and generic space settings.)
    • The "Stamets" is a Kirk-style lead who happens to be a botanist (his background may be providing context but it doesn't appear core to his actions or interactions. There is very little dialog available.) Early descriptions state that he has a girlfriend and some trailers show him interacting with a cat in space (which we can presume is his.)
    • The "Burnham" is the communications officer, a la Uhura, and doesn't appear to have much involvement beyond that role.
    • The "Culver"...this is an ergregious comparison with Discovery. He's a white guy with a brown beard (filling in what appears to be a Bones-esque friendship with the lead), it's a very select piece of "shadowy" animation (posted after Cruz was cast) that's being used in the comparison videos.
    • The "Tilly," a member of another team. She has red hair and its very difficult to say whether she only appears in one scene (where she's piloting a two-seat space fighter) or adopts a much larger role in the game (one can infer a rival team dynamic with frequent contact but I don't think that's been established yet.)
    • There are many other characters showcased in the game of equal or greater prominence, each primarily distinguished by hair color (for the sake of the main game's rendering capabilities.) It's worth noting because the game is casting a wide net, making incidental similarities more likely.
    • The setting is Egypt 20,000 BC, following the Stargate mold of imagining that to be the product of an ancient space-faring culture.
    • The sci-fi interiors also seem inspired by the Daedalus, circa Stargate SG-1 (though "generic modern sci-fi" including Aliens, the Expanse, Starship Troopers, and Halo would also do.)
    • The "spores" segment is a wormhole scene posted Aug 2015, sans Tardigrade. It does, however, resemble a Stargate portal (rendered as a sphere of moving dots to resemble the ripple effect at a glance.)
    • The plot seems to be a re-imagined Dune prequel, including the formation of deserts in the title locations and Tardigrades standing in (apparently) for both Guild Navigator and Sandworm (blue also matching the deep blue of spice saturated eyes). The connection between works is very directly established with the dev lifting the intro from the 1984 Dune movie for one of his trailers.

    Now to do all this as an indie project is a technical accomplishment (though it remains to be seen whether the dev is building a coherent narrative, realizing characters, and coupling that to a complimentary tone; there's been very little dialog posted) but there's still no getting around the fact that this is derivative work. In detail, it doesn't resemble Discovery and any vague similarities either follow from convergent evolution (placing Tardigrades as a pop-science stand-in for alien life [following notable NASA experiments and evangelization by Tyson in Cosmos 2.0), because look at the thing) or genre trends and archetypes (with the Tardigrades game sticking to them and Discovery [in the case of characters] subverting them].)

    I don't blame the dev in this, because from comments I've seen he's been surrounded by an echo chamber that's bought into the "CBS stole your work" narrative (without checking the precise dates) and that's a very unusual place to find yourself in while working on a project like this. I do blame those who publicized the issue without doing due diligence in research, they've "taken the side" of an indie dev and tacitly encouraged a lawsuit without appreciating, in full, what that is objectively up against simply to fulfill a dramatic narrative. Win or lose, they're entertained.

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  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,556 Arc User
    If anyone has the right to sue CBS over Tardigrades, it is Neil deGrasse Tyson due to a Cosmos episode introducing the idea of Tardigrades as being able to live in space to public perception.
  • smokebaileysmokebailey Member Posts: 4,668 Arc User
    starswordc wrote: »
    > @smokebailey said:
    > (Quote)
    >
    > Don't give another corporation any more ideas, please.

    Maybe if you lay off the wacky baccy for a bit, you'll notice I was being sarcastic. His cr@ppy point-and-click game has about as many similarities to Dune and Stargate as it does to Discovery.

    You are entitled to not like the series, but it's getting a third season. Get over it.

    And, like the first 2 seasons, not gonna see it, nor support it. I'll stick to Orville, thank you. *curtsies*
    foxman00 wrote: »
    rattler2 wrote: »
    So... by that logic he should sue ANYONE who fits that broad description of people, and no one can use that particular set of features together.

    Too vague and too broad a stroke.

    It was explained in DETAIL how certain things cannot be protected, and how other things were just too vague. Just let it go already!

    I also like how he said CBS must have greased the judges hand. We have majorily crossed the neutral zone and into Tin Foil hat terrority here :)

    Riiiight, judges, politicians and other authority figures are so honest and the prime examples of integrity?
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