> @phoenixc#0738 said: > (Quote) > > Those Patrol Escorts are nice little ships, in fact the only Federation escorts I have flown that I actually like. I never got the Tempest refit either (it is a pay ship or something I take it?), and I do not like the Defiant refit they offer as the T5u for the level 61 escort choice. > > One funny thing is that I have an engineering captain that I concentrated on maneuver and engine skills and gear thinking Federation carriers would be as ungainly as the Vo'Quv, then decided to go with the Chronos instead. That temporal dreadnaught cruiser fitted out like that zips around enough like an escort that I made an oversized beamscort (sort of anyway) out of it, and it does surprisingly well in the role for a 4/4 hardpoint ship (and it is a blast seeing the thing skid around shooting enemy ships off-axis since it turns faster than it changes direction of travel). > > So yes, you can make just about anything take any role, and that is actually realistic since they do not have the "holy trinity" of roles in the real world either. Escorts are not dead, it is more a case of T5/T5u/T6 power level than role, the escorts of any particular tier are as viable as anything else in that tier generally speaking.
Yes, it's a c-store ship, but is totally worth it...
Don't know how these ship classes compare at the moment since I don't play as much or chase DPS - it's just my least favorite ship class to fly: relying on fast turn rate and impulse speeds for high defenses and CRF3 zipping in and out over and over is kind of repetitive.
I wouldn't say they're obsolete; just another tool in the toolbox.
Back when this game was called "Escorts Online", the primary targets were.. big, slow, borg (semi-)bosses that were easy to keep DHCs trained on at all times. These days, you're constantly spammed out the wazoo from all directions by zippy little things that like to stay as far away from your forward arc as possible.
Furthermore, there is a bit of a paradox with where most of the traditional tac seat-heavy ones are at right now. Seeing as it's less important to double-up on skills these days, the extra tac slots mean you can field more weapon types on them. However, they don't have as many weapon slots or the eng/sci support to maximize that weapon diversity. The ones with more generalized seating, like the Mat'ha, are still absolute monsters when you position them properly though.
I think the problem is that cruisers are simply better than escorts in almost every category.
Yes, you probably can tank in an escort. But you would tank much better in a cruiser using the same build, since you'd have twice (or more) the hit points and likely better built in DR.
And also, to a certain extent, you don't need to tank in a cruiser. I fly escorts on pretty much all my engineering characters, simply because their biggest power, miraculous repairs, is never actually needed if they fly a cruiser.
The problem with escorts (IMHO) is they are supposed to be able to do more damage, but they really don't (and especially now since some cruisers have 12 consoles, letting them have 5 tac consoles). They tried fixing this by adding the experimental weapon slot (or whatever its called now) but that really doesn't help much.
Going to disagree on a few things here. What one loads a ship with and how it's flown matters more than anything else. The base stats of a ship can positively or negatively impact certain builds, but simply do not matter as much as how it's flown and what you load it with. If you give 2 people the same exact build, at the same exact skill level of player, and on down the line, it's entirely possible for them to get completely different results purely based on playstyle. Where as someone going for pure dps may look at a ship and think "eew it sucks," I may look at and think "this thing is a gift from Q himself," or vice versa.
Secondly, having additional hit points doesn't automatically make something a better ship for tanking. I'm not going to complain about a ship having additional hit points because reasons, but at the same time I care more that it has the proper mastery package, layout, shield modifier, and other stats far more than I do about HP.
Some folks may think I'm crazy when I say this, but the amount of shield and hull capacity you have doesn't matter as much as your ability to maintain them. If one had 1m shield capacity and 1m hull capacity, that's cool, but if you don't have good enough damage negation and heals to maintain it, then it won't matter. The fact that it's possible to tank with the Aquarius is proof of this. It has the lowest amount of hull in game out of all t5 and t6 ships, yet the Aquarius can be made into a tank. Having extra hull and shields is always great when you can pick it up, however it's absolutely possible to focus too much on shield and hull capacity thus gimping your ship in other areas. On that point I've seen the Aquarius outperform the much larger cruisers and be far more durable because of the build and piloting. This game is about 20% gear, setup, skills etc, and the other 80% is the piloting. You don't really "need" to fly any specific type of ship. It ultimately comes down to personal preference and what one wants to do in game. Certain ships will lend more benefits to certain builds than others but that's where what is "mandatory" or "best" ends.
Having the additional console is exclusive to miracle worker ships and is their gimmick. Having 5 tac consoles isn't exclusively an escort thing nor does it automatically make a superior ship yet again. Having tac consoles is great, but a build that does stupid amounts of damage can be achieved without the need for tac consoles, and it does not have to be a science build. Tac consoles can definitely help, but there's other ways to boost damage. Far as cruiser vs escort, it also depends on the type of build. an escort will typically lend more tactical based powers and have the speed required to pull off a cannon build or dual bank build and can far exceed cruisers in that capacity.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
I think the problem is that cruisers are simply better than escorts in almost every category.
Yes, you probably can tank in an escort. But you would tank much better in a cruiser using the same build, since you'd have twice (or more) the hit points and likely better built in DR.
And also, to a certain extent, you don't need to tank in a cruiser. I fly escorts on pretty much all my engineering characters, simply because their biggest power, miraculous repairs, is never actually needed if they fly a cruiser.
The problem with escorts (IMHO) is they are supposed to be able to do more damage, but they really don't (and especially now since some cruisers have 12 consoles, letting them have 5 tac consoles). They tried fixing this by adding the experimental weapon slot (or whatever its called now) but that really doesn't help much.
Sorry but your idea that Miracle Worker(old name)/miraclous repairs is never used or needed is simply untrue, maybe on deep tank build sure but on DPS or Jack of all traits build it is used and needed, there's plenty of times when all my other hull heals are on cooldown and I got hull damage (and several ships attacking me) and I fly a dreadnaught on my UFP engineer so not only it's a cruiser it's one of the heaviest cruiser subtypes there is (the previously mentioned Chronos class temporal dreadnaught to be exact though built to be a Jack of all traits ship).
only thing beam built cruisers are arguebly inherently superior is that they're the most newbie friendly shiptype due to high inherent hp and and forgiving weapons configuration, thus allowing the player to make more mistakes but even there the difference is minor and only applies before the player knows how to make proper builds.
I use Miraculous Repairs all the time, no matter what my engi might be flying.
It's a good "oh (censored)" button in case your other heals are on cooldown, something that can very easily happen in elite TFO if you're in middle of an enemy fleet.
I wouldn't say escorts are obsolete, but they are much more difficult to play without actually being more rewarding in terms of their supposed DPS advantage. Tactical slots also lack a lot of usefulness with so many mutually exclusive powers and powers that are totally useless if you don't use the weapon type. Power creep certainly doesn't help as it heavily mitigates the gap between cannon and beam damage outputs.
I think part of the problem also lies in the need to be moving for defense values and the problem with moving hurting your ability to shoot things with cannons. I never agreed with the very early cannon damage nerf, and I see it as a continued problem today that hurts cannon escorts and their ability to really do what they are intended to do best. The lousy targeting system and difficulty with spatial awareness in the game doesn't help, nor does the difficulty in maneuvering and lining up a target when you are going fast.
One thing I'd like to see is a thrust vectoring kind of system, similar to the pilot ability Lock Trajectory. It would give you maybe 20 degrees of motion to keep moving in one direction, but skew the ship towards your target. It could be an ensign tactical power since those are so much fun when you have too many. It wouldn't increase your cannon angles, it would just have the nose auto-track your target with 20 degrees of motion, maybe 20-40 depending on rank. It might make it hard to figure out where you're actually flying though.
I must be playing a different game than everyone else here. I have no problem keeping up in my escorts. I also don't find them to be glass cannons, nor do they require especially quick reflexes. It's all in the build.
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STO Forum member since before February 2010. STO Academy's excellent skill planner here: Link I actually avoid success entirely. It doesn't get me what I want, and the consequences for failure are slim. -- markhawman
Don't know how these ship classes compare at the moment since I don't play as much or chase DPS - it's just my least favorite ship class to fly: relying on fast turn rate and impulse speeds for high defenses and CRF3 zipping in and out over and over is kind of repetitive.
*Looks at sig*, I notice you have the Valkis. Probably explains why you don't like smaller, more nimble ships. Can't say I blame you though. I have the Fed Universe version. That thing is so easy to tank with. Just sit back and drink some tea while using 1 hand to play the game. Let your 2 bays of hangar pets do the work.
On a unrelated note: I recognized your name from playing PS2. Good to see a fellow Planetman/woman playing another good sci-fi mmo.
I think part of the problem also lies in the need to be moving for defense values and the problem with moving hurting your ability to shoot things with cannons. I never agreed with the very early cannon damage nerf, and I see it as a continued problem today that hurts cannon escorts and their ability to really do what they are intended to do best. The lousy targeting system and difficulty with spatial awareness in the game doesn't help, nor does the difficulty in maneuvering and lining up a target when you are going fast.
I agree about the spatial awareness problem, though a lot of that hinges on the lack of true depth perception in the game I think. The range numbers are often hard to read in all the spam so a lot of the time it comes down to keeping track of the pattern in which they change color from out of range to in range. It is further complicated by the inconsistent sizes that exist across timelines so the target (and other ships) could be further away or closer than you think. Fast escorts can take advantage of that color change the best if you weave in and out at long range compared to a slower and less maneuverable cruiser.
Their UI could definitely use some work as you say too. Unless you have eyes good enough to see it scaled down it tends to be too intrusive. Not only could it use things like target tracking aids, it needs to have some way of breaking up the Boff power line to fit around the main box (which could use the ability to detach and separate lines and add a few boxes to the end itself) along with controlling the order of the boffs on the line(s). Some of the stuff in the main power box I just use to keep track of cooldowns for stuff linked to mouse buttons and whatnot and those do not need to take up space in the action area.
Also, the option to pin the powers buttons to the top of the stack would be nice, I get tired of having to click a boff portrait to get the end of that bar out from under "red alert" and other low-priority notices in the middle of a fight for example. Sometimes that takes just enough time to turn a close call into a disaster.
Got many ships of all types, and I do enjoy escorts too for what they are, just now how they play in STO. Pilot risian corvette for example, super fast and like a rollercoaster ride, but working the keybinds while sorting through the mess of ships and distance to each is kind of 'it' for them. Other space games have a need for such high impulse & turn rates to dogfight or navigate obstacles with more proper physics, but STO doesn't.
Don't know how these ship classes compare at the moment since I don't play as much or chase DPS - it's just my least favorite ship class to fly: relying on fast turn rate and impulse speeds for high defenses and CRF3 zipping in and out over and over is kind of repetitive.
*Looks at sig*, I notice you have the Valkis. Probably explains why you don't like smaller, more nimble ships. Can't say I blame you though. I have the Fed Universe version. That thing is so easy to tank with. Just sit back and drink some tea while using 1 hand to play the game. Let your 2 bays of hangar pets do the work.
On a unrelated note: I recognized your name from playing PS2. Good to see a fellow Planetman/woman playing another good sci-fi mmo.
Greetings fellow planetmans! Keep up the good fight whichever front you're on!
Cryptic gave Escorts and Raiders an experimental weapon slot a while back to compensate the reduced dmg potential those ships have compared to others.
I practice I did not find it suffice in consideration that on other crafts you get hangers or additional slots for weapon set pieces which have the habit to contribute a lot more. Also experimental weapons are very discrete to interact with a build and in light of the source to obtain good ones (lock box/lobi ships) they turned out to be more of an annoyance than to grand the sought-after effect at the DPS front. Things would change if they'd be buffed up to a point where they are as good as front weapons.
Other than that I would not want to miss having at least one of those ships active in my deck of characters. On maps where you need to fly around much (Breach, Gravity, Counterpoint e.g.) they simply remain too good of an asset because they are so fast.
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Will agree with what most have already said the class of ship or captain’s profession mean little to what you can do with them. My heaviest damaging ship right now is a science ship. Because if built right they become monsters that can suck half the mobs on a map into a blender of death that never really have to turn off. Grounds not much different for the most part yank all the mobs in the into a pulsing earthquake of fire that spits lava.
Something that I have found rings true about the original post points out is that most people fly cruisers or some variant of that. Truth be told they are the best damage dealers right now and are the easiest to turn into them. It does not take much to turn the Gagarin into a good damage dealer that can take a punch. Escorts can be a bit harder to setup if you want both the damage and the not dying so easy. far harder is turning sci ships into deadly space wizards that don’t pop if given a stern look.
As to how to fix that. Its hard to say even a lot of cruiser are hard to make into anything other than space barbies. I keep trying with the Buran and even though I think it’s about the size of an Akira and has fancy gold console’s and weapons all over it, it still turns like a brick and fights like its firing nerf pew pews. Yes, it kills stuff but most other ship I have with even half the fancies on it do so much better.
With escorts like a lot have said they can have to many tac slots on them or just not the best layout in general. You only need so many ensign tac powers (like 2 works). Also, they tend to pop faster than other ships. I’d say That is part of their dna outside of actively doing something about it. Something I really wish would have been done a good few years ago was when the introduced pilot abilities was to make it standard to all escorts. Maneuverability has always been one of their hallmark features and that would have blended better with the escort idea than an extra gun slot that only has like 3 options and just shoots out the center of your ship in a 360 arc because meh why not.
Science ships are far worse on the build front while you can make them into wonderful ships. Its rather counter intuitive to do. Outside of very specific situation like a dedicated run with buddies you do not want to have or fly a support science ship in a normal pug. The combination of distance that power work and size of the map we fly on and how fast we kill stuff and die to stuff when hit with a 600k crit make it so that sci support ships tend to be a day late and a dollar short. You are much rather off making it into something that can be counted on to do things on its own like everybody else. You could just use it like any normal ship and forgo the space magic but then why not go with another ship since all those science powers would do jack all. So, you ask the next question. What do I have to do to make the space magic work and discover the first big hurdle. If you really want to do the space magic to any real extent you have to shove the power that makes your pew pew’s pew harder into the bar that does… something? I remember it’s the bar that goes down every time I use aux to bat. That’s just the start it gets more complex from there in trying to balance numbers that are hard to even figure out if they are working properly together. But for most I’d say that first bit of having to leave what you do everywhere else behind ends any chance of wanting to mess with a science ship. As to how to fix it. I Think this is harder than escorts just because the first thing that comes to mind is get rid of how science power are tied to aux. The thing is that’s the way it was a long time ago and at that time science powers were not nearly as effective because you could not boost them by jacking up a power bar. All I can think that might work although it would make them maybe easier to setup but even more complicated would be to tie the ones that do damage to weapons power and the ones that do healing to shields or something or still to aux or maybe both to shields since that is what science ships are better at to start with so it synergy’s better than aux.
Something else that could use some help is engineering captains. Ya I see them all over the place but I have hard time making myself use them tac are naturally good at killing stuff in space and on the ground, science are also not bad at killing stuff in space and far better than tacs on the ground outside of a single boss mob with massive health. Engineers well they can exist in space alongside both their counterparts. They just don’t seem to bring as much to the table their only really damage improvement is to negate energy drop for a short period of time. Which is not something I really worry about on any class. They do have 2 strong heals but science has it scatter field which means you don’t worry about health or shields for a bit also. Sci also has sensor scan which can debuff a group into find dust. And tac while it does not have a heal does have its I KILL YOU button that is attack pattern alpha, plus its leaser kill you buttons. On the ground they also tend to feel the weakest to me. Their best at turtling but I just never really find that’s what I need or want to do. I’m mostly running from place to place whether it’s a mission or dino land. Their strongest ability always seems to be mines which I use by charging towards an enemy and spawning them at their feet. I just feel they need something to help them stand out more. Maybe summon power armor like some of the dino’s can or an army of little robots I don’t know something. Speaking of army I’d love to see a universal kit module that summoned a group of carnivorous tribbles that would swam over enemies leaving nothing but bones or you character would point at somebody and they would inflate and explode in a shower of tribbles that would then try and consume his buddies.
I think part of the problem also lies in the need to be moving for defense values and the problem with moving hurting your ability to shoot things with cannons. I never agreed with the very early cannon damage nerf, and I see it as a continued problem today that hurts cannon escorts and their ability to really do what they are intended to do best. The lousy targeting system and difficulty with spatial awareness in the game doesn't help, nor does the difficulty in maneuvering and lining up a target when you are going fast.
I agree about the spatial awareness problem, though a lot of that hinges on the lack of true depth perception in the game I think. The range numbers are often hard to read in all the spam so a lot of the time it comes down to keeping track of the pattern in which they change color from out of range to in range. It is further complicated by the inconsistent sizes that exist across timelines so the target (and other ships) could be further away or closer than you think. Fast escorts can take advantage of that color change the best if you weave in and out at long range compared to a slower and less maneuverable cruiser.
Their UI could definitely use some work as you say too. Unless you have eyes good enough to see it scaled down it tends to be too intrusive. Not only could it use things like target tracking aids, it needs to have some way of breaking up the Boff power line to fit around the main box (which could use the ability to detach and separate lines and add a few boxes to the end itself) along with controlling the order of the boffs on the line(s). Some of the stuff in the main power box I just use to keep track of cooldowns for stuff linked to mouse buttons and whatnot and those do not need to take up space in the action area.
Also, the option to pin the powers buttons to the top of the stack would be nice, I get tired of having to click a boff portrait to get the end of that bar out from under "red alert" and other low-priority notices in the middle of a fight for example. Sometimes that takes just enough time to turn a close call into a disaster.
Yeah one of the reasons I like raptors is because their dart/arrow shape makes it a lot easier to tell which way they are pointing. Still, depth perception is damn near impossible, and while I used to zoom in on the ship to make it easier, I find there is so much going on in the discoball of STO space combat that I just can't get in so close and focused on my ship anymore. I'll either get blinded or blindsided. The hilariously bad issue with effects and ship size is exemplified by the anniversary Vulcan ship we got this year, the thing so tiny that the weapons firing make the ship essentially impossible to see.
What I do really hate about the UI though, are two chief things. First lack of a defensive/friendly target. You get one target, enemy or friendly, not both. This is really primitive but I guess they lost their coders a while ago that could ever fix that problem. It makes swapping targets to heal a friendly then back to an enemy target obnoxious, and in escorts with the critical timing on cannon fire, it can lose you a full firing cycle easily. I got the Hazari destroyer in the Lobi store years ago, but the trait is basically useless since I can't reasonably be healing teammates and doing damage at the same time.
The other major problem is simply targeting. Tab targeting is awful in this game, and doesn't let you select targets close to center screen or in my forward weapon arc as far as I am aware. In an escort, I'm frequently pretending like I can do a strafing run and hit 3 ships in a line, focusing on one, passing it and switching to the next target, except that just doesn't work with the UI forcing me to manually select it, if I can even find my cursor. Since targeting is required it really should be improved.
I think part of the problem also lies in the need to be moving for defense values and the problem with moving hurting your ability to shoot things with cannons. I never agreed with the very early cannon damage nerf, and I see it as a continued problem today that hurts cannon escorts and their ability to really do what they are intended to do best. The lousy targeting system and difficulty with spatial awareness in the game doesn't help, nor does the difficulty in maneuvering and lining up a target when you are going fast.
I agree about the spatial awareness problem, though a lot of that hinges on the lack of true depth perception in the game I think. The range numbers are often hard to read in all the spam so a lot of the time it comes down to keeping track of the pattern in which they change color from out of range to in range. It is further complicated by the inconsistent sizes that exist across timelines so the target (and other ships) could be further away or closer than you think. Fast escorts can take advantage of that color change the best if you weave in and out at long range compared to a slower and less maneuverable cruiser.
Their UI could definitely use some work as you say too. Unless you have eyes good enough to see it scaled down it tends to be too intrusive. Not only could it use things like target tracking aids, it needs to have some way of breaking up the Boff power line to fit around the main box (which could use the ability to detach and separate lines and add a few boxes to the end itself) along with controlling the order of the boffs on the line(s). Some of the stuff in the main power box I just use to keep track of cooldowns for stuff linked to mouse buttons and whatnot and those do not need to take up space in the action area.
Also, the option to pin the powers buttons to the top of the stack would be nice, I get tired of having to click a boff portrait to get the end of that bar out from under "red alert" and other low-priority notices in the middle of a fight for example. Sometimes that takes just enough time to turn a close call into a disaster.
Yeah one of the reasons I like raptors is because their dart/arrow shape makes it a lot easier to tell which way they are pointing. Still, depth perception is damn near impossible, and while I used to zoom in on the ship to make it easier, I find there is so much going on in the discoball of STO space combat that I just can't get in so close and focused on my ship anymore. I'll either get blinded or blindsided. The hilariously bad issue with effects and ship size is exemplified by the anniversary Vulcan ship we got this year, the thing so tiny that the weapons firing make the ship essentially impossible to see.
What I do really hate about the UI though, are two chief things. First lack of a defensive/friendly target. You get one target, enemy or friendly, not both. This is really primitive but I guess they lost their coders a while ago that could ever fix that problem. It makes swapping targets to heal a friendly then back to an enemy target obnoxious, and in escorts with the critical timing on cannon fire, it can lose you a full firing cycle easily. I got the Hazari destroyer in the Lobi store years ago, but the trait is basically useless since I can't reasonably be healing teammates and doing damage at the same time.
If it were always the same ally, you can actually pin a target. But if you intend to switch your healing targets then it won't help.
But I think this is less of a "coding" problem and more of a "where on the screen do you want to add that extra user interface in our already way overloaded user interface?" plus "Huh, who would have though that players want that in the first place?"
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
I think part of the problem also lies in the need to be moving for defense values and the problem with moving hurting your ability to shoot things with cannons. I never agreed with the very early cannon damage nerf, and I see it as a continued problem today that hurts cannon escorts and their ability to really do what they are intended to do best. The lousy targeting system and difficulty with spatial awareness in the game doesn't help, nor does the difficulty in maneuvering and lining up a target when you are going fast.
I agree about the spatial awareness problem, though a lot of that hinges on the lack of true depth perception in the game I think. The range numbers are often hard to read in all the spam so a lot of the time it comes down to keeping track of the pattern in which they change color from out of range to in range. It is further complicated by the inconsistent sizes that exist across timelines so the target (and other ships) could be further away or closer than you think. Fast escorts can take advantage of that color change the best if you weave in and out at long range compared to a slower and less maneuverable cruiser.
Their UI could definitely use some work as you say too. Unless you have eyes good enough to see it scaled down it tends to be too intrusive. Not only could it use things like target tracking aids, it needs to have some way of breaking up the Boff power line to fit around the main box (which could use the ability to detach and separate lines and add a few boxes to the end itself) along with controlling the order of the boffs on the line(s). Some of the stuff in the main power box I just use to keep track of cooldowns for stuff linked to mouse buttons and whatnot and those do not need to take up space in the action area.
Also, the option to pin the powers buttons to the top of the stack would be nice, I get tired of having to click a boff portrait to get the end of that bar out from under "red alert" and other low-priority notices in the middle of a fight for example. Sometimes that takes just enough time to turn a close call into a disaster.
Yeah one of the reasons I like raptors is because their dart/arrow shape makes it a lot easier to tell which way they are pointing. Still, depth perception is damn near impossible, and while I used to zoom in on the ship to make it easier, I find there is so much going on in the discoball of STO space combat that I just can't get in so close and focused on my ship anymore. I'll either get blinded or blindsided. The hilariously bad issue with effects and ship size is exemplified by the anniversary Vulcan ship we got this year, the thing so tiny that the weapons firing make the ship essentially impossible to see.
What I do really hate about the UI though, are two chief things. First lack of a defensive/friendly target. You get one target, enemy or friendly, not both. This is really primitive but I guess they lost their coders a while ago that could ever fix that problem. It makes swapping targets to heal a friendly then back to an enemy target obnoxious, and in escorts with the critical timing on cannon fire, it can lose you a full firing cycle easily. I got the Hazari destroyer in the Lobi store years ago, but the trait is basically useless since I can't reasonably be healing teammates and doing damage at the same time.
If it were always the same ally, you can actually pin a target. But if you intend to switch your healing targets then it won't help.
But I think this is less of a "coding" problem and more of a "where on the screen do you want to add that extra user interface in our already way overloaded user interface?" plus "Huh, who would have though that players want that in the first place?"
Pin a target is news to me, but it would make it easy if I just wanted to trigger the Hazari trait. I'll play with that later. Where would you put it, though? That's easy, highlight it in green in the team window and maybe a green name+arrow+targeting box in the style of existing targeting interface.
But who would want that? I've been asking for that here for years myself, probably since launch since it made healing in PVP and STFs very difficult back then (and still does but no one PVPs, and people just take care of themselves in STFs or blow up faster than I can react.) That feature was implemented very early if not at launch in games as new as Anarchy Online (by new I mean almost 20 years old,) so it should be something that propagates through more modern MMOs with such simple tab targeting systems. Games like ESO just give AOE heals or target the lowest health person so you don't even bother targeting a teammate, but that's a solution for a game with simpler combat.
Comments
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> Those Patrol Escorts are nice little ships, in fact the only Federation escorts I have flown that I actually like. I never got the Tempest refit either (it is a pay ship or something I take it?), and I do not like the Defiant refit they offer as the T5u for the level 61 escort choice.
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> One funny thing is that I have an engineering captain that I concentrated on maneuver and engine skills and gear thinking Federation carriers would be as ungainly as the Vo'Quv, then decided to go with the Chronos instead. That temporal dreadnaught cruiser fitted out like that zips around enough like an escort that I made an oversized beamscort (sort of anyway) out of it, and it does surprisingly well in the role for a 4/4 hardpoint ship (and it is a blast seeing the thing skid around shooting enemy ships off-axis since it turns faster than it changes direction of travel).
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> So yes, you can make just about anything take any role, and that is actually realistic since they do not have the "holy trinity" of roles in the real world either. Escorts are not dead, it is more a case of T5/T5u/T6 power level than role, the escorts of any particular tier are as viable as anything else in that tier generally speaking.
Yes, it's a c-store ship, but is totally worth it...
Back when this game was called "Escorts Online", the primary targets were.. big, slow, borg (semi-)bosses that were easy to keep DHCs trained on at all times. These days, you're constantly spammed out the wazoo from all directions by zippy little things that like to stay as far away from your forward arc as possible.
Furthermore, there is a bit of a paradox with where most of the traditional tac seat-heavy ones are at right now. Seeing as it's less important to double-up on skills these days, the extra tac slots mean you can field more weapon types on them. However, they don't have as many weapon slots or the eng/sci support to maximize that weapon diversity. The ones with more generalized seating, like the Mat'ha, are still absolute monsters when you position them properly though.
Going to disagree on a few things here. What one loads a ship with and how it's flown matters more than anything else. The base stats of a ship can positively or negatively impact certain builds, but simply do not matter as much as how it's flown and what you load it with. If you give 2 people the same exact build, at the same exact skill level of player, and on down the line, it's entirely possible for them to get completely different results purely based on playstyle. Where as someone going for pure dps may look at a ship and think "eew it sucks," I may look at and think "this thing is a gift from Q himself," or vice versa.
Secondly, having additional hit points doesn't automatically make something a better ship for tanking. I'm not going to complain about a ship having additional hit points because reasons, but at the same time I care more that it has the proper mastery package, layout, shield modifier, and other stats far more than I do about HP.
Some folks may think I'm crazy when I say this, but the amount of shield and hull capacity you have doesn't matter as much as your ability to maintain them. If one had 1m shield capacity and 1m hull capacity, that's cool, but if you don't have good enough damage negation and heals to maintain it, then it won't matter. The fact that it's possible to tank with the Aquarius is proof of this. It has the lowest amount of hull in game out of all t5 and t6 ships, yet the Aquarius can be made into a tank. Having extra hull and shields is always great when you can pick it up, however it's absolutely possible to focus too much on shield and hull capacity thus gimping your ship in other areas. On that point I've seen the Aquarius outperform the much larger cruisers and be far more durable because of the build and piloting. This game is about 20% gear, setup, skills etc, and the other 80% is the piloting. You don't really "need" to fly any specific type of ship. It ultimately comes down to personal preference and what one wants to do in game. Certain ships will lend more benefits to certain builds than others but that's where what is "mandatory" or "best" ends.
Having the additional console is exclusive to miracle worker ships and is their gimmick. Having 5 tac consoles isn't exclusively an escort thing nor does it automatically make a superior ship yet again. Having tac consoles is great, but a build that does stupid amounts of damage can be achieved without the need for tac consoles, and it does not have to be a science build. Tac consoles can definitely help, but there's other ways to boost damage. Far as cruiser vs escort, it also depends on the type of build. an escort will typically lend more tactical based powers and have the speed required to pull off a cannon build or dual bank build and can far exceed cruisers in that capacity.
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Sorry but your idea that Miracle Worker(old name)/miraclous repairs is never used or needed is simply untrue, maybe on deep tank build sure but on DPS or Jack of all traits build it is used and needed, there's plenty of times when all my other hull heals are on cooldown and I got hull damage (and several ships attacking me) and I fly a dreadnaught on my UFP engineer so not only it's a cruiser it's one of the heaviest cruiser subtypes there is (the previously mentioned Chronos class temporal dreadnaught to be exact though built to be a Jack of all traits ship).
only thing beam built cruisers are arguebly inherently superior is that they're the most newbie friendly shiptype due to high inherent hp and and forgiving weapons configuration, thus allowing the player to make more mistakes but even there the difference is minor and only applies before the player knows how to make proper builds.
It's a good "oh (censored)" button in case your other heals are on cooldown, something that can very easily happen in elite TFO if you're in middle of an enemy fleet.
I think part of the problem also lies in the need to be moving for defense values and the problem with moving hurting your ability to shoot things with cannons. I never agreed with the very early cannon damage nerf, and I see it as a continued problem today that hurts cannon escorts and their ability to really do what they are intended to do best. The lousy targeting system and difficulty with spatial awareness in the game doesn't help, nor does the difficulty in maneuvering and lining up a target when you are going fast.
One thing I'd like to see is a thrust vectoring kind of system, similar to the pilot ability Lock Trajectory. It would give you maybe 20 degrees of motion to keep moving in one direction, but skew the ship towards your target. It could be an ensign tactical power since those are so much fun when you have too many. It wouldn't increase your cannon angles, it would just have the nose auto-track your target with 20 degrees of motion, maybe 20-40 depending on rank. It might make it hard to figure out where you're actually flying though.
STO Forum member since before February 2010.
STO Academy's excellent skill planner here: Link
I actually avoid success entirely. It doesn't get me what I want, and the consequences for failure are slim. -- markhawman
*Looks at sig*, I notice you have the Valkis. Probably explains why you don't like smaller, more nimble ships. Can't say I blame you though. I have the Fed Universe version. That thing is so easy to tank with. Just sit back and drink some tea while using 1 hand to play the game. Let your 2 bays of hangar pets do the work.
On a unrelated note: I recognized your name from playing PS2. Good to see a fellow Planetman/woman playing another good sci-fi mmo.
I agree about the spatial awareness problem, though a lot of that hinges on the lack of true depth perception in the game I think. The range numbers are often hard to read in all the spam so a lot of the time it comes down to keeping track of the pattern in which they change color from out of range to in range. It is further complicated by the inconsistent sizes that exist across timelines so the target (and other ships) could be further away or closer than you think. Fast escorts can take advantage of that color change the best if you weave in and out at long range compared to a slower and less maneuverable cruiser.
Their UI could definitely use some work as you say too. Unless you have eyes good enough to see it scaled down it tends to be too intrusive. Not only could it use things like target tracking aids, it needs to have some way of breaking up the Boff power line to fit around the main box (which could use the ability to detach and separate lines and add a few boxes to the end itself) along with controlling the order of the boffs on the line(s). Some of the stuff in the main power box I just use to keep track of cooldowns for stuff linked to mouse buttons and whatnot and those do not need to take up space in the action area.
Also, the option to pin the powers buttons to the top of the stack would be nice, I get tired of having to click a boff portrait to get the end of that bar out from under "red alert" and other low-priority notices in the middle of a fight for example. Sometimes that takes just enough time to turn a close call into a disaster.
Greetings fellow planetmans! Keep up the good fight whichever front you're on!
I practice I did not find it suffice in consideration that on other crafts you get hangers or additional slots for weapon set pieces which have the habit to contribute a lot more. Also experimental weapons are very discrete to interact with a build and in light of the source to obtain good ones (lock box/lobi ships) they turned out to be more of an annoyance than to grand the sought-after effect at the DPS front. Things would change if they'd be buffed up to a point where they are as good as front weapons.
Other than that I would not want to miss having at least one of those ships active in my deck of characters. On maps where you need to fly around much (Breach, Gravity, Counterpoint e.g.) they simply remain too good of an asset because they are so fast.
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Something that I have found rings true about the original post points out is that most people fly cruisers or some variant of that. Truth be told they are the best damage dealers right now and are the easiest to turn into them. It does not take much to turn the Gagarin into a good damage dealer that can take a punch. Escorts can be a bit harder to setup if you want both the damage and the not dying so easy. far harder is turning sci ships into deadly space wizards that don’t pop if given a stern look.
As to how to fix that. Its hard to say even a lot of cruiser are hard to make into anything other than space barbies. I keep trying with the Buran and even though I think it’s about the size of an Akira and has fancy gold console’s and weapons all over it, it still turns like a brick and fights like its firing nerf pew pews. Yes, it kills stuff but most other ship I have with even half the fancies on it do so much better.
With escorts like a lot have said they can have to many tac slots on them or just not the best layout in general. You only need so many ensign tac powers (like 2 works). Also, they tend to pop faster than other ships. I’d say That is part of their dna outside of actively doing something about it. Something I really wish would have been done a good few years ago was when the introduced pilot abilities was to make it standard to all escorts. Maneuverability has always been one of their hallmark features and that would have blended better with the escort idea than an extra gun slot that only has like 3 options and just shoots out the center of your ship in a 360 arc because meh why not.
Science ships are far worse on the build front while you can make them into wonderful ships. Its rather counter intuitive to do. Outside of very specific situation like a dedicated run with buddies you do not want to have or fly a support science ship in a normal pug. The combination of distance that power work and size of the map we fly on and how fast we kill stuff and die to stuff when hit with a 600k crit make it so that sci support ships tend to be a day late and a dollar short. You are much rather off making it into something that can be counted on to do things on its own like everybody else. You could just use it like any normal ship and forgo the space magic but then why not go with another ship since all those science powers would do jack all. So, you ask the next question. What do I have to do to make the space magic work and discover the first big hurdle. If you really want to do the space magic to any real extent you have to shove the power that makes your pew pew’s pew harder into the bar that does… something? I remember it’s the bar that goes down every time I use aux to bat. That’s just the start it gets more complex from there in trying to balance numbers that are hard to even figure out if they are working properly together. But for most I’d say that first bit of having to leave what you do everywhere else behind ends any chance of wanting to mess with a science ship. As to how to fix it. I Think this is harder than escorts just because the first thing that comes to mind is get rid of how science power are tied to aux. The thing is that’s the way it was a long time ago and at that time science powers were not nearly as effective because you could not boost them by jacking up a power bar. All I can think that might work although it would make them maybe easier to setup but even more complicated would be to tie the ones that do damage to weapons power and the ones that do healing to shields or something or still to aux or maybe both to shields since that is what science ships are better at to start with so it synergy’s better than aux.
Something else that could use some help is engineering captains. Ya I see them all over the place but I have hard time making myself use them tac are naturally good at killing stuff in space and on the ground, science are also not bad at killing stuff in space and far better than tacs on the ground outside of a single boss mob with massive health. Engineers well they can exist in space alongside both their counterparts. They just don’t seem to bring as much to the table their only really damage improvement is to negate energy drop for a short period of time. Which is not something I really worry about on any class. They do have 2 strong heals but science has it scatter field which means you don’t worry about health or shields for a bit also. Sci also has sensor scan which can debuff a group into find dust. And tac while it does not have a heal does have its I KILL YOU button that is attack pattern alpha, plus its leaser kill you buttons. On the ground they also tend to feel the weakest to me. Their best at turtling but I just never really find that’s what I need or want to do. I’m mostly running from place to place whether it’s a mission or dino land. Their strongest ability always seems to be mines which I use by charging towards an enemy and spawning them at their feet. I just feel they need something to help them stand out more. Maybe summon power armor like some of the dino’s can or an army of little robots I don’t know something. Speaking of army I’d love to see a universal kit module that summoned a group of carnivorous tribbles that would swam over enemies leaving nothing but bones or you character would point at somebody and they would inflate and explode in a shower of tribbles that would then try and consume his buddies.
Yeah one of the reasons I like raptors is because their dart/arrow shape makes it a lot easier to tell which way they are pointing. Still, depth perception is damn near impossible, and while I used to zoom in on the ship to make it easier, I find there is so much going on in the discoball of STO space combat that I just can't get in so close and focused on my ship anymore. I'll either get blinded or blindsided. The hilariously bad issue with effects and ship size is exemplified by the anniversary Vulcan ship we got this year, the thing so tiny that the weapons firing make the ship essentially impossible to see.
What I do really hate about the UI though, are two chief things. First lack of a defensive/friendly target. You get one target, enemy or friendly, not both. This is really primitive but I guess they lost their coders a while ago that could ever fix that problem. It makes swapping targets to heal a friendly then back to an enemy target obnoxious, and in escorts with the critical timing on cannon fire, it can lose you a full firing cycle easily. I got the Hazari destroyer in the Lobi store years ago, but the trait is basically useless since I can't reasonably be healing teammates and doing damage at the same time.
The other major problem is simply targeting. Tab targeting is awful in this game, and doesn't let you select targets close to center screen or in my forward weapon arc as far as I am aware. In an escort, I'm frequently pretending like I can do a strafing run and hit 3 ships in a line, focusing on one, passing it and switching to the next target, except that just doesn't work with the UI forcing me to manually select it, if I can even find my cursor. Since targeting is required it really should be improved.
But I think this is less of a "coding" problem and more of a "where on the screen do you want to add that extra user interface in our already way overloaded user interface?" plus "Huh, who would have though that players want that in the first place?"
Pin a target is news to me, but it would make it easy if I just wanted to trigger the Hazari trait. I'll play with that later. Where would you put it, though? That's easy, highlight it in green in the team window and maybe a green name+arrow+targeting box in the style of existing targeting interface.
But who would want that? I've been asking for that here for years myself, probably since launch since it made healing in PVP and STFs very difficult back then (and still does but no one PVPs, and people just take care of themselves in STFs or blow up faster than I can react.) That feature was implemented very early if not at launch in games as new as Anarchy Online (by new I mean almost 20 years old,) so it should be something that propagates through more modern MMOs with such simple tab targeting systems. Games like ESO just give AOE heals or target the lowest health person so you don't even bother targeting a teammate, but that's a solution for a game with simpler combat.