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Are Escort Class And Raptor Class Are Obsolete?
sfbarbear
Member Posts: 12 Arc User
I've been pondering this for a few weeks now. I've noticed fewer and fewer smaller class ships in the game. Everyone seems to use Cruisers, Dreads, and Battleships armed to the teeth with cannons and just spray the map while pooping out fighters and swarmers, since the newest console release.
Raptors and Escorts are supposed to be heavy damage, single target, fast moving glass cannons. This appears to not be the case anymore against the giant sprayers and poopers that clear entire spawns in a blink of the eye and be really discouraging to players that aren't the micro managed DPS'ers. Seriously whats the point in playing that class when everything else exceeds them in most scenarios and are easily able to overcome their innate shortcomings like speed or turn rate by popping in an epic console and spending 2 skill points.
I was wondering what others thoughts were on this observation and ideas if any to help make the Escort and Raptor class more viable in PVE and TFO playing. I think it is something that should be looked at on a game play level at least. Maybe an innate Escort and Raptor damage boot to all single target attacks and no boost for spreads, sprays and pooping attacks or a moderately increased crit chance or severity.
I just think some adjustment needs to be done to the different classes so none are obsolete.
Raptors and Escorts are supposed to be heavy damage, single target, fast moving glass cannons. This appears to not be the case anymore against the giant sprayers and poopers that clear entire spawns in a blink of the eye and be really discouraging to players that aren't the micro managed DPS'ers. Seriously whats the point in playing that class when everything else exceeds them in most scenarios and are easily able to overcome their innate shortcomings like speed or turn rate by popping in an epic console and spending 2 skill points.
I was wondering what others thoughts were on this observation and ideas if any to help make the Escort and Raptor class more viable in PVE and TFO playing. I think it is something that should be looked at on a game play level at least. Maybe an innate Escort and Raptor damage boot to all single target attacks and no boost for spreads, sprays and pooping attacks or a moderately increased crit chance or severity.
I just think some adjustment needs to be done to the different classes so none are obsolete.
Post edited by baddmoonrizin on
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Comments
Still, escorts have their place, as do all other ships. Don't ask the game to change something because you don't like what's going on. Personally, I like ships that 'TRIBBLE' out pets, though I still don't do the monstrous damage that uber-DPSers do with theirs and that's fine with me too. If I get into an instance with them I just do my best to get enough damage to not be slapped with an AFK penalty. That usually doesn't happen so I'm happy with what I have.
I would never ask them to change anything just because I didn't like how things were going. I don't think the ships need 'balancing' they're fine as is.
Escorts are still a viable option for story missions or anything else you want to use them for. I don't fly them much because they're the glass cannons of the game and my reflexes are more aligned with destroyers or cruiser-types.
Everyone has their favorite ship type and that's fine. Just adjust to each situation as it presents itself and don't bring in preconceived notions about where any ship fits. With all the survivability consoles or ship equipment that promotes survivability almost any ship, including escorts, can survive much longer than they used to.
They weren't 'meant to be' anything.. this is nothing but your personal interpretation.
Escorts biggest problem is their bridge officer seating... simple as that. Most of them have a ton of fixed tactical slots which, while it sounds good.. really isn't. Many builds are able to keep cooldowns at global without having to double up so those tac heavy slots are basically wasted.
There is nothing wrong with Cruisers, there is no rule saying they're supposed to be 'Tanks.' That doesn't exist.. never did.. it's just some peoples opinion. All they need to do is make Escorts more flexible in their bridge officer layouts and you would see more of them. The issue with Escorts is restrictive layouts.. nothing more. They still have the Commander Tactical Seating which most cruisers can't do. The problem is.. well.. everything else.
There are no problems with Cruisers or Science ships at all. I will agree though, that a lot of escorts could use a look.. specifically at the bridge officer seating. If you do see Escorts around, it's usually the Andorian ships which are far more versatile then most other Escorts.
> I've been pondering this for a few weeks now. I've noticed fewer and fewer smaller class ships in the game. Everyone seems to use Cruisers, Dreads, and Battleships armed to the teeth with cannons and just spray the map while pooping out fighters and swarmers, since the newest console release.
> Raptors and Escorts are supposed to be heavy damage, single target, fast moving glass cannons. This appears to not be the case anymore against the giant sprayers and poopers that clear entire spawns in a blink of the eye and be really discouraging to players that aren't the micro managed DPS'ers. Seriously whats the point in playing that class when everything else exceeds them in most scenarios and are easily able to overcome their innate shortcomings like speed or turn rate by popping in an epic console and spending 2 skill points.
> I was wondering what others thoughts were on this observation and ideas if any to help make the Escort and Raptor class more viable in PVE and TFO playing. I think it is something that should be looked at on a game play level at least. Maybe an innate Escort and Raptor damage boot to all single target attacks and no boost for spreads, sprays and pooping attacks or a moderately increased crit chance or severity.
>
> I just think some adjustment needs to be done to the different classes so none are obsolete.
My Fleet Tempest disagree, i melt my enemies.. and the tail gun shred them also.. so no complains here
I still fly mine from time to time as well.. and it performs quite well. It's also a little more versatile then other escorts which makes it better then T6 counterparts in most cases.
It's still baffling that they have never made a T6 version of the Tempest.. that would be a day 1 buy for me for sure. Great ship!
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> I still fly mine from time to time as well.. and it performs quite well. It's also a little more versatile then other escorts which makes it better then T6 counterparts in most cases.
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> It's still baffling that they have never made a T6 version of the Tempest.. that would be a day 1 buy for me for sure. Great ship!
Totally!, I really love that ship, my only gripe is that i'll love to upgrade the fused tail gun.. i have it on an engi, and is a killing machine tank!
There were always defined roles in the ships. It even stats so in the character selection, ship information when buying a ship and general FAQ for the game. The lines have become too blurred between the ship classes, otherwise there wouldn't be ship classes and we would all have T6 Science Cruisers right out of the academy.
As for tactical stations I agree completely. There is too much redundancy that cancels each other out. Kind of like what the Cardassian said to Miles. Leave it to Starfleet for the primary and secondary backups to have backups.
This is actually a very common misconception about the game. Any ship can be made to deal great damage or be a tank of some type. In fact I turned an Aquarius escort/raider into a tank and there is old video of me soloing the old Starbase 24 map with it, and a newer video doing some elite patrols with it on my youtube channel. I bring that up because the Aquarius itself has the lowest amount of base hull in the game, or at least it did. Yet despite that I was able to make it into a tank. Simply because a ship is labeled as tactical, does not mean it's intended for only tactical captains. I play primarily as a tac captain and typically use more beefier dreadnoughts to tank with. I also have several escorts and similar that I bust out from time to time to tank with. I also have a couple of science ships such as the T6 Nebula that I made into a tank or even the Annorax. Any type of captain can be used for any type of ship. If you give a tac captain, engineer, and a sci captain the same ship, with the same setup and so on, the only major difference will be the captain powers each captain comes with baseline.
STO has never had or enforced the "holy trinity" on people of tank, healer, dps. There are queues where it could potentially benefit, but is by no means required. Giant dreadnoughts, cruisers and such can deal just as much damage as the escorts, and escorts can tank just as well as the larger ships. In STO what matters is what you load the ship with and how you fly it. It's about 20% setup, gear, skills, spec in the first 20%, and the last 80% is your piloting. In STO think of ships as computer case of sorts with varying base properties. What parts you load the case with, what programs you use (boff powers) and how you use the final product determines how effective it will be.
Overall there is no set in stone winner take all "best" ship despite what some folks may tell you. There are ships that will lend more advantages to certain build types than others but that's where what is "best" ends. You could make a science drain build using only 2 science powers on an escort using antiproton, but it wouldn't be nearly as effective as using a more science heavy ship and either polaron or tetryon. Ships are fine where they are.
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Funny thing is... I got a vintage Pre Tempest Fleet T5 Patrol Escort on one character. She never got the Tempest refit with the fixed tailgun.
But, they could stand a refresh of sorts with a look at the various seating configurations.
Also, I've always felt that ships zipping around a map should be harder to hit. Perhaps a bump to both Accuracy and Defense rating to reflect a ship that is harder to target and hit with weapons and better able to strike while moving.
I agree 100% -- if anything needs to be changed it's making the non-commander tactical seating into universal since I often find myself with tac slots I'd much rather have be science or engineering.
That, and moving the cannon powers down one rank to match beam powers.
Those are just "would be nice" changes though, you can do any content in an escort if you pay a little more attention to your hull health and back off to heal if you need to.
Quite possibly, but it's unfair that you need higher slots so lose an attack pattern III, while you're also giving up the greater firing arc of beams. I use cannons on some ships but it's making things harder on myself.
maybe a slight boost to defense and even then I'd base it on speed, turn rate and ship size rather then ship "class" as smaller fast and nimble ships should logically be harder to hit, but if your ship is the size of the Universe class or has a slow turning rate if should be any harder to hit no matter how fast it is linearally.
Essentially your speed and turn rate should give a small bonus but your size should give you reduction based on an approcimation of the ship size. So most escorts that are fast, nimble and relatively small should get best benefit (though still only a minor bonus), while a large slow and non-nimble cruiser would get no additional benefits (I wouldn't apply negative "bonuses" to large targets though with lowest possible bonus being 0)
Here's the thing... Cannon builds aren't meant to do the exact same thing as beam builds. Also it makes the user choose what abilities fit their build rather than go for everything.
I've actually found cannons to be a bit more usable on Pilot Escorts at times because the pilot abilities makes it a bit easier to stay on target every once in a while. Especially if you have Lock Trajectory, which I feel is kinda useless on a beam build.
I am sorry, but that is completely untrue.
I am not calling you a liar, please don't get me wrong.. I just think you have made a common mistake here. Star Trek Online has never tied a certain ship class to a certain role, they have always been 'mix and match' with career specializations.
Here is the game definition of a 'Cruiser'
Other then the fact that they have a high hull rating, nothing in that says 'tank.' In fact, Science Vessels have the best shield multiplier in the game, they are not 'tanks' either.
Cruisers are now, and always have been multipurpose ships. Star Trek Online has never used pre-determined ship roles. An Engineer in an Escort can tank like you wouldn't believe..
I know.. I have done it.
Yes, you probably can tank in an escort. But you would tank much better in a cruiser using the same build, since you'd have twice (or more) the hit points and likely better built in DR.
And also, to a certain extent, you don't need to tank in a cruiser. I fly escorts on pretty much all my engineering characters, simply because their biggest power, miraculous repairs, is never actually needed if they fly a cruiser.
The problem with escorts (IMHO) is they are supposed to be able to do more damage, but they really don't (and especially now since some cruisers have 12 consoles, letting them have 5 tac consoles). They tried fixing this by adding the experimental weapon slot (or whatever its called now) but that really doesn't help much.
Setting aside the balance question, I agree that a bump in defense based on speed would be nice - something along the lines of Pedal to the Metal, but for defense instead of damage would be nice.
Doesn't the old T5 Risian corvette have something like that? I don't have the ship and there is no mention in the wiki, but I could swear I heard something like that at one time.
But Raptors and Escorts with a 4/3(/1) weapon layout are.
This game over its life time has had different ship class rise and fall from favor. At times it is science ships. At times cruiser, and others the escorts. That escorts are not the main focus now means little as before when a new challenge or ship comes out being an escort as the chosen one of the moment. We will see them come back out as people will either use the new ships or those that have older escorts will grab them.
If anything I would think that stock needs be taken of just where the ship types you see are from. Then ask why said ships are better or not.
To take dreadnoughts to my count there are 48 different options in game for them.
15 are Zen in the 2500 to 3000 range. 31.9149%, 8 t6 promo ships pack. 17.0213%, 5 are fleet. 10.6363%
12 are lockbox. 25.5319%, 4 are lobi. 8.5106%, 3 are phoenix/event. 6.3830%
I appear to have missed one of the ships and don’t want to go thru more time counting again to find it. But I am aware of my miscount.
So around 58% of the ships are specialty ships in some way it’s not hard to see given the general cost for those ships people will want to be flying them and not the generic escort.
That being said I still fly my t6 fleet defiant and some t5u and t5 ships I have them fitted as theme ships for me. But when I want to do an event or tfo I am trying to improve at doing or raising my limited dps by learning new skills and fittings. I have a few Dreadnoughts I go to.
Kelvin Timeline Intel Dreadnought Cruiser, Prototype Dreadnought Cruiser, Fleet Galaxy-class Dreadnought Cruiser (T6), Voth Bulwark Dreadnought Cruiser, Xindi-Primate Ateleth Dreadnought Cruiser, Xindi-Aquatic Narcine Dreadnought Carrier, Herald Vonph Dreadnought Carrier.
These are the ships I have in the dread lineup so far. Not near a full or all inclusive collection but I can see why some would be in them and not in an escort. At this time in the game it’s fine that escorts are not the end all be all of ships. I am sure they will make a comeback but we don’t need to go thru them and give boosts to enhance the ships just as they are not in vogue this week.
Those Patrol Escorts are nice little ships, in fact the only Federation escorts I have flown that I actually like. I never got the Tempest refit either (it is a pay ship or something I take it?), and I do not like the Defiant refit they offer as the T5u for the level 61 escort choice.
One funny thing is that I have an engineering captain that I concentrated on maneuver and engine skills and gear thinking Federation carriers would be as ungainly as the Vo'Quv, then decided to go with the Chronos instead. That temporal dreadnaught cruiser fitted out like that zips around enough like an escort that I made an oversized beamscort (sort of anyway) out of it, and it does surprisingly well in the role for a 4/4 hardpoint ship (and it is a blast seeing the thing skid around shooting enemy ships off-axis since it turns faster than it changes direction of travel).
So yes, you can make just about anything take any role, and that is actually realistic since they do not have the "holy trinity" of roles in the real world either. Escorts are not dead, it is more a case of T5/T5u/T6 power level than role, the escorts of any particular tier are as viable as anything else in that tier generally speaking.