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What would a "tanking TFO" be like?

sophlogimosophlogimo Member Posts: 6,507 Arc User
All the TFO's that we have require damage, speed, or a combination of both. None of them has an alternative solution over doing lots of damage, and being fast. Granted, sometimes doing a bit of healing of a transport or so can be helpful, but that is rare and can be outplayed by... doing more damage and being faster.

What would a TFO have to look like that is about tanking, and tanking alone?
Remember, STO is nothing but a cosmetics game, where only the rule of cool matters. The game mechanics are intentionally out of balance, don't try to "optimize" anything, as it would just frustrate you.
Post edited by baddmoonrizin on
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  • zaraszzarasz Member Posts: 186 Arc User
    It would require enemies that cant be killed quickly without coordination. Probably HP values from higher difficulties without changing their damage values. But it might require a specifc member of the group to concentrate more on support instead of damage.
    I healed and tanked in other MMOs but I dont know if it can even remotely work in STO in a similar fashion.
  • zerokillcf2011zerokillcf2011 Member Posts: 545 Arc User
    Well we kinda had it (sort of) with the original version of Terran Empire Incursion. V1 science vessels HAD to close the anomolies bc Tac and Eng took SOOOOOO long. Same for re-aligning the 4 corner structures, those HAD to be Eng, as Sci and Tac took SOOOOOO long as to be impractical.

    This was quickly changed, bc too many players complained.

    But as I just mentioned in another unrelated thread, to make tanking playable, you would need a ship that doesnt exist yet. I.E. an actual TANK with lower damage, but incredible built in survivability. I.E. 1 or 2 Tac consoles, but say 7 Eng consoles. PLUS a way to actually draw Agro since you aren't doing enough damage. So a special "tank" console that when triggered would give a massive hull and shield resistence rating and draw ALL enemy fire for a set period of time (like 10 or 15 seconds), thus allowing the creation of Damage Dealers that would now not have to focus ANY of their build on defense as they would be relying on the TANK to take the beating for them during a coordinated attack. The Tank meanwhile has no healing really, focusing on polarized hull, and Aux to Structure, etc, thus relying on a Sci Healer to rebuild his defenses in a timely fashion......


    SOOOO....never going to happen. The general base likes to be able to just point, click, boom. For some reason, STO players seem to complain at the idea of some how making STO in line with other MMORPG's where while not NECESSARY to have a Damage Dealer, Healer, and TANK, it makes the game significantly easier and some missions/dungeons are impossible without a well built TEAM.....yah, they don't like that in Star Trek Online.

    It would take too much redesign at this point. In this game, agro is solely decided by threat. And a well built Tank would a) never be able to generate enough damage to draw agro from the damage dealers, and b) would be dealing so little damage, they would likely be getting dealt AFK penalties for "not participating". So, it would be great, but too much of the game has gone beyond a point where it makes much sense.

    The problem is right now you can build an amazing tank that survives...anything. Even in PVP I remember there being challenges to see if groups of players could take down Player X's build (seem to remember this was prob 5 years ago, and the Tholian Recluse carrier was near indestructible) BUT....there is no point. You can fly a MW ship (take the new Gregaron) and slot ZERO weapon boosting tact consoles, instead using those slots for universal consoles, and filling your ENG slots with armor, etc.....and still solo end game content. DPS drives the game, but it isn't necessary. And if DPS isn't necessary, why would tanks and healers be necessary? Heck, you can play end game content in a T1 ship with good gear and traits.

    I would think the only easy fix for Tanks to be viable with little coding, would be to factor in the damage RECEIVED in player contributions for rewards. Sci ships get credit for heals, Tac gets credit (obv) for damage dealt. Just add a ranking/contribution for damage taken/absorbed. So you COULD play a TFO without dealing much damage, and NOT get the AFK penalty because you were flying around drawing fire.
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    All the TFO's that we have require damage, speed, or a combination of both. None of them has an alternative solution over doing lots of damage, and being fast. Granted, sometimes doing a bit of healing of a transport or so can be helpful, but that is rare and can be outplayed by... doing more damage and being faster.

    What would a TFO have to look like that is about tanking, and tanking alone?
    No, most of the queues that we have require waiting out a timer or ten, with everything else optional.

    And I would imagine a "tanking" queue would be just more of that.
  • protoneousprotoneous Member Posts: 2,950 Arc User
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    All the TFO's that we have require damage, speed, or a combination of both. None of them has an alternative solution over doing lots of damage, and being fast. Granted, sometimes doing a bit of healing of a transport or so can be helpful, but that is rare and can be outplayed by... doing more damage and being faster.

    What would a TFO have to look like that is about tanking, and tanking alone?
    I was in a decent pug run ISA in which a player took over 90% of the team's 'total damage in' while parsing about the same as the rest of the group.

    Being on a junior toon I was certainly appreciative not having to take as much heat and thanked them for doing such an amazing job. They were delighted to get such a compliment in team chat from a pug.

    Hopefully this is one example of how a skilled player can be an asset by taking a lot of aggro off of others (an alternative solution in part - tanking).
  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,839 Arc User
    What would they be like?

    The old Borg Elite TFO's from back in the day.
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  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 4,164 Arc User
    trennan wrote: »
    What would they be like?

    The old Borg Elite TFO's from back in the day.
    Those old raids where great its a shame STO doesn't really have any end game content anymore. It still amazes me how after all these years STO now has less end game content then we had back then. Back in those old raids we used to have tanks/healers to draw aggro. People had different roles and worked as a team.

    I miss a lot of the old content which has been removed as it was challenging, could be failed which left a feeling of accomplishment once completed. Not like the now new super easy mode content that is practically impossible to fail with no feeling of accomplishment once completed.

    The original NWS was pretty good as well, way better then the remake it ruined it.
  • lordsteve1lordsteve1 Member Posts: 3,492 Arc User
    We already have one (or did until the recent NPC damage nerf).....it's called HIVE SPACE ELITE.

    Going in there without a dedicated tank (or possibly a shed load of DPS to compensate for a lack of one) was nearly always guaranteed to be a disaster.
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  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,918 Arc User
    edited May 2019
    lordsteve1 wrote: »
    We already have one (or did until the recent NPC damage nerf).....it's called HIVE SPACE ELITE.

    Going in there without a dedicated tank (or possibly a shed load of DPS to compensate for a lack of one) was nearly always guaranteed to be a disaster.

    Yep, HSE is one where you definitely want to have a tank with you.

    'Tanking' is just different in STO then it is in any other more traditional MMO. Usually a 'Tank' just pulls aggro, then 'turtles up' and defends himself dealing very little damage at all while the rest of the party beats on the baddies. STO is a bit different since you have to actually deal some damage in order to be a threat in the first place.

    Yes, you can activate threatening stance and the threatening cruiser command, but if you hit like a wet noodle, the enemies will still just ignore you. Tanking is definitely an art, there are some people that do an amazing job at it. It's an under appreciated but very important and very tough role to play. Balancing your build to hold threat but still being able to take everything that the threat will unleash upon you.

    A good tank can turn something like HSE from an overwhelming disaster into a fairly easy victory for the rest of the team. I have had the pleasure of playing it with a few people that know how to tank and it makes all the difference in the world.
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  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,839 Arc User
    lordsteve1 wrote: »
    We already have one (or did until the recent NPC damage nerf).....it's called HIVE SPACE ELITE.

    Going in there without a dedicated tank (or possibly a shed load of DPS to compensate for a lack of one) was nearly always guaranteed to be a disaster.

    Yep, HSE is one where you definitely want to have a tank with you.

    'Tanking' is just different in STO then it is in any other more traditional MMO. Usually a 'Tank' just pulls aggro, then 'turtles up' and defends himself dealing very little damage at all while the rest of the party beats on the baddies. STO is a bit different since you have to actually deal some damage in order to be a threat in the first place.

    Yes, you can activate threatening stance and the threatening cruiser command, but if you hit like a wet noodle, the enemies will still just ignore you. Tanking is definitely an art, there are some people that do an amazing job at it. It's an under appreciated but very important and very tough role to play. Balancing your build to hold threat but still being able to take everything that the threat will unleash upon you.

    A good tank can turn something like HSE from an overwhelming disaster into a fairly easy victory for the rest of the team. I have had the pleasure of playing it with a few people that know how to tank and it makes all the difference in the world.

    Don't forget the Threat Gen increase trait.. Imposing Presence. Or the Klingon +15% threat gen racial. One of the small problems with space combat tanking. There's no taunt style abilities to pull aggro with.
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  • legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 37,275 Arc User
    there is, but it has a CD of like...2 minutes or something? not really a good thing for taunts​​
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  • disqord#9557 disqord Member Posts: 567 Arc User
    I can be beam spamming super intensely in a massive crowd, using several taunting abilities at once, and sometimes enemies just won't stop looking at my allies. I pride myself on having a strong tanking build too, so it's pretty upsetting.

    Diversionary Tactics is one of the very very few taunts in the game, and it only works on a limited number of targets and feels more like it was designed for the alternating between stances, instead of what those stances meant. It takes 2 minutes to cool down, which also sucks. If there was a way of giving yourself maybe a thousand percent threat generation or a taunt BOff ability with a short cooldown that would be lovely. My current hope is that the trait from the Narendra (Stacking 10% increase threat with stance up to 300%) might give me an extra boost, but the threat generation scales way too high with damage dealt.
  • spiritbornspiritborn Member Posts: 4,248 Arc User
    I can be beam spamming super intensely in a massive crowd, using several taunting abilities at once, and sometimes enemies just won't stop looking at my allies. I pride myself on having a strong tanking build too, so it's pretty upsetting.

    Diversionary Tactics is one of the very very few taunts in the game, and it only works on a limited number of targets and feels more like it was designed for the alternating between stances, instead of what those stances meant. It takes 2 minutes to cool down, which also sucks. If there was a way of giving yourself maybe a thousand percent threat generation or a taunt BOff ability with a short cooldown that would be lovely. My current hope is that the trait from the Narendra (Stacking 10% increase threat with stance up to 300%) might give me an extra boost, but the threat generation scales way too high with damage dealt.

    Yeah STO tanking needs a taunt or 2 to viable in a larger scale then now, essentially something like the competative rep tier 5 but as universal skill.
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,001 Arc User
    The defunct Warhammer Online had a neat way to tank. You could mark an enemy and a ally. The ally you marked was who you protected, taking some of the damage they took as long as you were close. The enemy was your 'arch rival' and you taunted them and built up stacks when they attacked you ('grudge', for the dwarves among us) which allowed you to built up one massive finishing attack of spike damage. This is something a tank needs, the ability to protect, taunt and opportunity spike damage while having low dps.
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  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    Taunting may possibly make some amount of sense in a fantasy RPG where your typical opponents are dumb monsters, but I can't imagine enemy starship captains regularly change their battle tactics for the worse based on their opponents making rude gestures at them.
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,001 Arc User
    warpangel wrote: »
    Taunting may possibly make some amount of sense in a fantasy RPG where your typical opponents are dumb monsters, but I can't imagine enemy starship captains regularly change their battle tactics for the worse based on their opponents making rude gestures at them.

    It would be so easy to direct that at electronic warfare. The Pralim (allied flight deck cruiser bundle) has a friend/foe sensor device that lets them target their allies for a short duration.​​
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    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,839 Arc User
    warpangel wrote: »
    Taunting may possibly make some amount of sense in a fantasy RPG where your typical opponents are dumb monsters, but I can't imagine enemy starship captains regularly change their battle tactics for the worse based on their opponents making rude gestures at them.

    Targeting Matrix Overload
    Scramble the targeting computers of all enemies with 10km, overloading their matrix to make them recognize the caster as the largest threat.

    It's not hard to make a computerized taunt.

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  • szimszim Member Posts: 2,503 Arc User
    I could see some kind of 'Sompek in space'. A TFO in which all ships are confined to a relatively small area of space. Every new wave of enemies is stronger than the one before. As soon as all players are defeated at the same time, the run ends. The longer the group has survived, the better the rewards (maybe even some mk xiv equipment to make it worth going for a tank build).
  • asuran14asuran14 Member Posts: 2,335 Arc User
    Well I could see tanking and even healing to a degree being something with varying types of methods of doing that. I mean in rifts we had a tanking class that redirected the damage done to the group back to themselves (most of the time at a reduced amount, or over time), making having a more typical meat shield tank less a demand, also this made actually having threat boosts an taunts abit less needed. I could see something like that working well for a science oriented tank that extends their shields around ships in their group taking much of the damage of the attacks against the target to their own shields, or even redistributes the damage across all of the ship's shields they have extended their own shields around. We have some less desirable to use boff abilities in the game that might find a more appealing role for them to be used by thru a redesign of the abilities an roles slightly.

    Where taunting is kinda like the idea of not having what i call hard taunts, makes threat management more important if there is none, since players need to manage their own threat an damage output consciously. Now having taunts that impart a penalty to make the player/npc more apt to target you is another matter. Doing something like scrambling, or hacking another ship's targeting system would make sense how either threat levels dropped or the ship is locked onto firing at a specific target for a period of time. I me why should taunts only be something a tank brings? What if as dps an healers we had taunt-like abilities that would dump our threat onto a given marked target, or transferred a portion of our threat to this target over time, and since we have threatening stance/posture not too hard to see how it could be worked.

  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    szim wrote: »
    I could see some kind of 'Sompek in space'. A TFO in which all ships are confined to a relatively small area of space. Every new wave of enemies is stronger than the one before. As soon as all players are defeated at the same time, the run ends. The longer the group has survived, the better the rewards (maybe even some mk xiv equipment to make it worth going for a tank build).
    Yeah, having to take out as many enemies as you can without getting KOed would make a decent challenge.
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  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,839 Arc User
    szim wrote: »
    I could see some kind of 'Sompek in space'. A TFO in which all ships are confined to a relatively small area of space. Every new wave of enemies is stronger than the one before. As soon as all players are defeated at the same time, the run ends. The longer the group has survived, the better the rewards (maybe even some mk xiv equipment to make it worth going for a tank build).
    Yeah, having to take out as many enemies as you can without getting KOed would make a decent challenge.

    This is sort of the premise for the Kobiyashi... but.. the suicidal ship is super threat gen.
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  • zerokillcf2011zerokillcf2011 Member Posts: 545 Arc User
    trennan wrote: »
    szim wrote: »
    I could see some kind of 'Sompek in space'. A TFO in which all ships are confined to a relatively small area of space. Every new wave of enemies is stronger than the one before. As soon as all players are defeated at the same time, the run ends. The longer the group has survived, the better the rewards (maybe even some mk xiv equipment to make it worth going for a tank build).
    Yeah, having to take out as many enemies as you can without getting KOed would make a decent challenge.

    This is sort of the premise for the Kobiyashi... but.. the suicidal ship is super threat gen.

    Kinda miss the old single player Kobiyashi you could do, where it was just fly in and see how long you could last.
  • spiritbornspiritborn Member Posts: 4,248 Arc User
    edited May 2019
    spiritborn wrote: »
    Yeah STO tanking needs a taunt or 2 to viable in a larger scale then now, essentially something like the competative rep tier 5 but as universal skill.
    Isn't that basically what the Threatening Stance ability and strategist specialization are for?
    Threatening Stance:definetly not, Stategist is also passive +threat as well. A taunt would be an active "attack me!" command and as others have pointed out you don't need magic to make it happen, either an Electrotic warfare ability that forces them target you and you alone, or just simply insulting their mother over the coms or in case they don't care about their mothers enough or don't have them, insult something they do care.

    It did even happen in canon (ST2 to be more precise) where Kirk taunted Khan by insulting his intelligence to make the Reliant follow the Enterprise into a trap.

    EDIT:Why I'd want it to an universal ability is that you shouldn't have to spec into a specific specialization or rep to have a basic tanking ability.
  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,225 Arc User
    edited May 2019
    In the old NWS tanking was not an option the players choose in order to beat it. The key to success was:


    1) A specialized build consisting of cannons DPS and CC elements. Critters and missles needed to be delayed and lack of dmg potential of the player could be made up via warpcorebreaches.

    2) A premade strategy with assigned roles and team splits 5 players needed to follow reliable.

    3) Lots of practice.


    On a general tone I don’t really know how a “tanking PvE” would look like in STO. I would think:

    1) Critters with DMG potential that great that a build which can absorb it is otherwise not able fulfill the roles of killing the critters. Only that way you need both a tank and a damage dealer.

    2) Maps that requier close team proximity so no team splits as a tank can't tank stuff away from others that are beyond 10 KM range.


    I understand that the thread was made by a player unhappy about the state of the game and the lack of need of tanking was just another way to express it. For those who are reading it, don’t have tanks but like to pursue this activity pleae note:


    1) Tanking may not be mandatory game sided but can be highly useful in certain teams and scenarios as Sea and Proton described.

    2) Only in the most elite teams tanks loose relevance in the hardest content the game has to offer but even there their uses is being discussed for potential benefits constantly. I’m in such teams for like 5% of my gaming time, during the rest of my time...

    3) ...I make frequent use of tanking in order to make the game playable for new players/under geared toons or to tend to some scenarios more effective where others then can interact with the map without being shot at (VC, TF, CP e.g.)

    4) The mechanics we currently have at our disposal for tanking as in attract aggro work okayish up to the upper end where they fail a bit. There it does not matter that much as tanking is not as effective then anyway.

    5) Aside from their thankfully optional nature (due to the average player and lack of interest in teamed PvE) tanks are incredibly easy to “build” under the current meta and only require some practice to handle as well as a team willing to play into it.

    All in all a fun and usefull side activity for a secondary character. Currently I have two tanks myself.
    Post edited by peterconnorfirst on
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  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,839 Arc User
    In the old NWS tanking was not an option the players choose in order to beat it. The key to success was:


    1) A specialized build consisting of cannons DPS and CC elements. Critters and missles needed to be delayed and lack of dmg potential of the player could be made up via warpcorebreaches.

    2) A premade strategy with assigned roles and team splits 5 players needed to follow reliable.

    3) Lots of practice.


    On a general tone I don’t really know how a “tanking PvE” would look like in STO. I would think:

    1) Critters with DMG potential that great that a build which can absorb it is otherwise not able fulfill the roles of killing the critters. Only that way you need both a tank and a damage dealer.

    2) Maps that requier close team proximity so no team splits as a tank can't tank stuff away from others that are beyond 10 KM range.


    I understand that the thread was made by a player unhappy about the state of the game and the lack of need of tanking was just another way to express it. For those who are reading it, don’t have tanks but like to pursue this activity pleae note:


    1) Tanking may not be mandatory game sided but can be highly useful in certain teams and scenarios as Sea and Proton described.

    2) Only in the most elite teams tanks loose relevance in the hardest content the game has to offer but even there their uses is being discussed for potential benefits constantly. I’m in such teams for like 5% of my gaming time, during the rest of my time...

    3) ...I make frequent use of tanking in order to make the game playable for new players/under geared toons or to tend to some scenarios more effective where others then can interact with the map without being shot at (VC, TF, CP e.g.)

    4) The mechanics we currently have at our disposal for tanking as in attract aggro work okayish up to the upper end where they fail a bit. There it does not matter that much as tanking is not as effective then anyway.

    5) Aside from their thankfully optional nature (due to the average player and lack of interest in teamed PvE) tanks are incredibly easy to “build” under the current meta and only require some practice to handle as well as a team willing to play into it.

    All in all a fun and usefull side activity for a secondary character. Currently I have two tanks myself.

    Cure Found was a map that needed a tank, and a team split.

    1 Tank and 2 DPS head toward cube, generally the one on the right.
    1 Crowd Controller(if you got lucky) and 1 DPS guarding.

    We couldn't face melt it back then, like we do today.

    Khitomer always required a team split, eithter a 3/2 or a 4/1. If it was the 4/1 split, then the one going off alone did nothing but keep probes from reaching the vortex.

    Infected had a marginal split. But that was for the CC'er to keep the nanite probes at bay.

    Even more so back then, since Advanced had fail conditions. We also couldn't ignore the damage the NPCs did, via clicky consoles, traits, or colony consoles. So we had to develop tactics and work as a team.

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  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    edited May 2019
    On a general tone I don’t really know how a “tanking PvE” would look like in STO. I would think:

    1) Critters with DMG potential that great that a build which can absorb it is otherwise not able fulfill the roles of killing the critters. Only that way you need both a tank and a damage dealer.

    2) Maps that requier close team proximity so no team splits as a tank can't tank stuff away from others that are beyond 10 KM range.
    In general, the way to create a mission that requires tanking and only tanking is by making the enemy simply impossible to kill at all (with defense and/or respawns), so it must simply be survived until something happens to relieve the situation.

    However, with unlimited respawns and no fail conditions, that means absolutely nothing and players would just die on purpose and wait it out.

    You could perhaps have a non-combat objective players would have to perform while tanking the enemy, though. That would, of course, require Cryptic to stop putting in auto-win timers on everything.
  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 4,164 Arc User
    edited May 2019
    warpangel wrote: »
    On a general tone I don’t really know how a “tanking PvE” would look like in STO. I would think:

    1) Critters with DMG potential that great that a build which can absorb it is otherwise not able fulfill the roles of killing the critters. Only that way you need both a tank and a damage dealer.

    2) Maps that requier close team proximity so no team splits as a tank can't tank stuff away from others that are beyond 10 KM range.
    In general, the way to create a mission that requires tanking and only tanking is by making the enemy simply impossible to kill at all (with defense and/or respawns), so it must simply be survived until something happens to relieve the situation.

    However, with unlimited respawns and no fail conditions, that means absolutely nothing and players would just die on purpose and wait it out.

    You could perhaps have a non-combat objective players would have to perform while tanking the enemy, though. That would, of course, require Cryptic to stop putting in auto-win timers on everything.

    There is another option give NPC's a large hit point pool but do not boost the NPC healing rate. Then boost the NPC damage. Its tricky to get the ratio right but done correctly this means players need to tank so they can survive long enough to wear down the NPC.

    The idea isn't to make NPC's impossible to kill, its to make them take long enough to kill that a player has to consider there own tank to stay alive long enough to do sustained DPS. For me one of the games that got this ratio perfect was Nexus the Jupiter Incident but its a very tricky ratio to get right and done wrong it turns into a painful grind.

    Doing every single fight like this is bad but the odd fight like this could be good for Sto?
  • echattyechatty Member Posts: 5,913 Arc User
    Like the Voth have those repair ships.
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