On a general tone I don’t really know how a “tanking PvE” would look like in STO. I would think:
1) Critters with DMG potential that great that a build which can absorb it is otherwise not able fulfill the roles of killing the critters. Only that way you need both a tank and a damage dealer.
2) Maps that requier close team proximity so no team splits as a tank can't tank stuff away from others that are beyond 10 KM range.
In general, the way to create a mission that requires tanking and only tanking is by making the enemy simply impossible to kill at all (with defense and/or respawns), so it must simply be survived until something happens to relieve the situation.
However, with unlimited respawns and no fail conditions, that means absolutely nothing and players would just die on purpose and wait it out.
You could perhaps have a non-combat objective players would have to perform while tanking the enemy, though. That would, of course, require Cryptic to stop putting in auto-win timers on everything.
There is another option give NPC's a large hit point pool but do not boost the NPC healing rate. Then boost the NPC damage. Its tricky to get the ratio right but done correctly this means players need to tank so they can survive long enough to wear down the NPC.
The idea isn't to make NPC's impossible to kill, its to make them take long enough to kill that a player has to consider there own tank to stay alive long enough to do sustained DPS. For me one of the games that got this ratio perfect was Nexus the Jupiter Incident but its a very tricky ratio to get right and done wrong it turns into a painful grind.
Doing every single fight like this is bad but the odd fight like this could be good for Sto?
Sure, but the OP asked for a mission about tanking alone, not tanking with DPS.
The best way to make enjoyable content that rewards tanking/healing, not requires it, but rewards tanking/healing is thru mechanics. When you buff things like stats such as hp or damage output it feels like a artificial forced shifts in play. Where as making mechanics in the game that promote, and rewards using other set ups an styles of play feels like a planned an yet warranted change that the player can actually interact with via tactics (where as the buffing of stats is just promoting squeezing that much more dps out of your build as nothing else can improve your play thru the content as much as more dps there).
I mean a great example would be a encounter that has it that when the enemy in question is targeting/tanked by a target/player their shields shift to focusing more on the forward facings, which leads to them having reduced shield protection on their flanks for the other players to exploit, and yet now there is a need of the target tanking/being targeted by this enemy to have more defenses to deal with the withering focus fire on them from the tanked target (most of all if you saw a increase in other areas as well like the target using something like the focus fire boff ability amping thier damage), though if you also had it that when untanked the enemy's shields are strong enough to withstand the focus fire of the group making it take longer to take the enemy out with a fully dps focused group. As such it would actually make tanking more desired an rewarding, though you could do it with a more dps focused an higher output as a secondary choice, though this is a very simple an standard style of tanking/healing encounterat the basis-line.
Thinking back the old TFO's, I mean the really old ones used to reward tanking before the score system was removed. For example SB24 used to run on a score system and flying into a massive bunch of NPC ships and tanking earned points to get to first place. Back when we had a score system displayed for PvE and different rewards based on performance tanking was around a lot more. You also lost points for blowing up so there was a reason to stay alive. Not like the super easy mode, every ones a winner rubbish we have now.
What about tying in rewards like marks to performance. You lose marks if you blow up as you ship needs to be rescued. You gain bonus marks if you tank. Give people a reason to tank.
I have lost track of this discussion a bit the same way I lost track of the past tanking discussions we had in forums.
Since tanking in STO “works” mechanic wise to I’d say 90% (You just have problem to tank away stuff from peeps doing 3 times as much dmg and certain elements can’t be tanked as torpedo spreads, core breaches) and we do have a lot of maps where it is supported although not required stage wise I kind of wonder:
Do peeps really want to have maps where you require a tank in order to even succeed?
Any idea what this would mean for RTFOs or public matches in general?
What would happen if some sloppygimpoo with creepy skills and gear would line up for the "tanking" slot in a queue list?
Potential of trolling?
General AFK or leaver mentality?
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
I have lost track of this discussion a bit the same way I lost track of the past tanking discussions we had in forums.
Since tanking in STO “works” mechanic wise to I’d say 90% (You just have problem to tank away stuff from peeps doing 3 times as much dmg and certain elements can’t be tanked as torpedo spreads, core breaches) and we do have a lot of maps where it is supported although not required stage wise I kind of wonder:
Do peeps really want to have maps where you require a tank in order to even succeed?
Peeps here want maps where they can show up in whatever, derp around for 10-15 minutes with nothing but optionals and then win automatically. Or at least Cryptic seems to think so, given that's all they make.
Any idea what this would mean for RTFOs or public matches in general?
They would require a mechanic for ensuring each team had all required roles filled.
What would happen if some sloppygimpoo with creepy skills and gear would line up for the "tanking" slot in a queue list?
Depends on what you mean by "creepy" skills and gear. If you mean bad, I would presume they'd lose unless they had another to take his place. I suppose it would also be good to have unlock conditions to stop such from happening.
Potential of trolling?
General AFK or leaver mentality?
Having content where player action was actually necessary would be great to reduce the general AFK mentality created by the constant flow of autowin.
I have lost track of this discussion a bit the same way I lost track of the past tanking discussions we had in forums.
Since tanking in STO “works” mechanic wise to I’d say 90% (You just have problem to tank away stuff from peeps doing 3 times as much dmg and certain elements can’t be tanked as torpedo spreads, core breaches) and we do have a lot of maps where it is supported although not required stage wise I kind of wonder:
Do peeps really want to have maps where you require a tank in order to even succeed?
Any idea what this would mean for RTFOs or public matches in general?
What would happen if some sloppygimpoo with creepy skills and gear would line up for the "tanking" slot in a queue list?
Potential of trolling?
General AFK or leaver mentality?
That argument however means STO has to be completely static and can never vary the gameplay too much from the "everyone can do everything all the time" formula.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
I have lost track of this discussion a bit the same way I lost track of the past tanking discussions we had in forums.
Since tanking in STO “works” mechanic wise to I’d say 90% (You just have problem to tank away stuff from peeps doing 3 times as much dmg and certain elements can’t be tanked as torpedo spreads, core breaches) and we do have a lot of maps where it is supported although not required stage wise I kind of wonder:
Do peeps really want to have maps where you require a tank in order to even succeed?
Peeps here want maps where they can show up in whatever, derp around for 10-15 minutes with nothing but optionals and then win automatically. Or at least Cryptic seems to think so, given that's all they make.
Any idea what this would mean for RTFOs or public matches in general?
They would require a mechanic for ensuring each team had all required roles filled.
What would happen if some sloppygimpoo with creepy skills and gear would line up for the "tanking" slot in a queue list?
Depends on what you mean by "creepy" skills and gear. If you mean bad, I would presume they'd lose unless they had another to take his place. I suppose it would also be good to have unlock conditions to stop such from happening.
Potential of trolling?
General AFK or leaver mentality?
Having content where player action was actually necessary would be great to reduce the general AFK mentality created by the constant flow of autowin.
While I can easily agree with all you said, sadly I don’t see any of it happening anytime soon or rather ever.
Most content where interaction or even effort is required (so no auto wins or meaningless optionals) as in “Elite” PvE maps get vastly avoided due to effort/reward/risk ratio issues.
The content where the ratio is fitting enough for the community to be consumed in reasonable amounts (lol) we find auto completion scenarios in “Normal” or roflstomping by your team-mates in “Advanced”.
As for “filtering” specialized roles into PvE (random) public matches, yea that’s how it could be done best, but I’m even less optimistic there as the the current population interested in PvE is so small that it does not even seem to justify a “ground” filter for randoms.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
I have lost track of this discussion a bit the same way I lost track of the past tanking discussions we had in forums.
Since tanking in STO “works” mechanic wise to I’d say 90% (You just have problem to tank away stuff from peeps doing 3 times as much dmg and certain elements can’t be tanked as torpedo spreads, core breaches) and we do have a lot of maps where it is supported although not required stage wise I kind of wonder:
Do peeps really want to have maps where you require a tank in order to even succeed?
Any idea what this would mean for RTFOs or public matches in general?
What would happen if some sloppygimpoo with creepy skills and gear would line up for the "tanking" slot in a queue list?
Potential of trolling?
General AFK or leaver mentality?
That argument however means STO has to be completely static and can never vary the gameplay too much from the "everyone can do everything all the time" formula.
Considering that only 5 rather subordinate captain powers differentiate the whole class system while countless gear, trait, ship, specialization not to mention boff ability choices dominate what is happening I’d even go so far as to say that this freedom in activity (independent of any class) is the core ideal this entire game is based on.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
I have lost track of this discussion a bit the same way I lost track of the past tanking discussions we had in forums.
Since tanking in STO “works” mechanic wise to I’d say 90% (You just have problem to tank away stuff from peeps doing 3 times as much dmg and certain elements can’t be tanked as torpedo spreads, core breaches) and we do have a lot of maps where it is supported although not required stage wise I kind of wonder:
Do peeps really want to have maps where you require a tank in order to even succeed?
Peeps here want maps where they can show up in whatever, derp around for 10-15 minutes with nothing but optionals and then win automatically. Or at least Cryptic seems to think so, given that's all they make.
Any idea what this would mean for RTFOs or public matches in general?
They would require a mechanic for ensuring each team had all required roles filled.
What would happen if some sloppygimpoo with creepy skills and gear would line up for the "tanking" slot in a queue list?
Depends on what you mean by "creepy" skills and gear. If you mean bad, I would presume they'd lose unless they had another to take his place. I suppose it would also be good to have unlock conditions to stop such from happening.
Potential of trolling?
General AFK or leaver mentality?
Having content where player action was actually necessary would be great to reduce the general AFK mentality created by the constant flow of autowin.
While I can easily agree with all you said, sadly I don’t see any of it happening anytime soon or rather ever.
Most content where interaction or even effort is required (so no auto wins or meaningless optionals) as in “Elite” PvE maps get vastly avoided due to effort/reward/risk ratio issues.
The content where the ratio is fitting enough for the community to be consumed in reasonable amounts (lol) we find auto completion scenarios in “Normal” or roflstomping by your team-mates in “Advanced”.
Actually, even the ratio thing is a bit outdated by now. The rewards are already SO generic that playing ANY non-event/endeavor queues at all is avoided. Why should anyone bother? Admiralty gives enough dil to hit the cap most days and always-on zero-cooldown spoilmark events put out all the marks people might want.
And from what I've heard, many people prefer to reroll if they get queues in their endos, too. I've even rerolled them myself because the queues, even the randoms, are dead again (and the reroll tokens don't have any other value so meh).
The game needs more rewards uniqueness very badly.
I have lost track of this discussion a bit the same way I lost track of the past tanking discussions we had in forums.
Since tanking in STO “works” mechanic wise to I’d say 90% (You just have problem to tank away stuff from peeps doing 3 times as much dmg and certain elements can’t be tanked as torpedo spreads, core breaches) and we do have a lot of maps where it is supported although not required stage wise I kind of wonder:
Do peeps really want to have maps where you require a tank in order to even succeed?
Peeps here want maps where they can show up in whatever, derp around for 10-15 minutes with nothing but optionals and then win automatically. Or at least Cryptic seems to think so, given that's all they make.
Any idea what this would mean for RTFOs or public matches in general?
They would require a mechanic for ensuring each team had all required roles filled.
What would happen if some sloppygimpoo with creepy skills and gear would line up for the "tanking" slot in a queue list?
Depends on what you mean by "creepy" skills and gear. If you mean bad, I would presume they'd lose unless they had another to take his place. I suppose it would also be good to have unlock conditions to stop such from happening.
Potential of trolling?
General AFK or leaver mentality?
Having content where player action was actually necessary would be great to reduce the general AFK mentality created by the constant flow of autowin.
While I can easily agree with all you said, sadly I don’t see any of it happening anytime soon or rather ever.
Most content where interaction or even effort is required (so no auto wins or meaningless optionals) as in “Elite” PvE maps get vastly avoided due to effort/reward/risk ratio issues.
The content where the ratio is fitting enough for the community to be consumed in reasonable amounts (lol) we find auto completion scenarios in “Normal” or roflstomping by your team-mates in “Advanced”.
Actually, even the ratio thing is a bit outdated by now. The rewards are already SO generic that playing ANY non-event/endeavor queues at all is avoided. Why should anyone bother? Admiralty gives enough dil to hit the cap most days and always-on zero-cooldown spoilmark events put out all the marks people might want.
And from what I've heard, many people prefer to reroll if they get queues in their endos, too. I've even rerolled them myself because the queues, even the randoms, are dead again (and the reroll tokens don't have any other value so meh).
The game needs more rewards uniqueness very badly.
Na on that I can't agree completely (but for the most part). Elite at least is consumed by a small % of the playerbase via private groups. I also found that on teams where everybody has around 150k+ DPS a lot of space maps run smooth enough to be worth doing. In such teams you reached a point again where, how did u put it, "derp around for 10-15 minutes with nothing but optionals and then win automatically". The rewards are ok under such circumstances and can be sold one way or the other for char progression. Salvage is a solid part of my in game income.
But true of course. Thats too small of a % of the playerbase to consider.
Thing is tanking here is often a strategy to get through compftably and most just look at normal and advanced when they place their judgment on the topic.
Post edited by peterconnorfirst on
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Comments
I mean a great example would be a encounter that has it that when the enemy in question is targeting/tanked by a target/player their shields shift to focusing more on the forward facings, which leads to them having reduced shield protection on their flanks for the other players to exploit, and yet now there is a need of the target tanking/being targeted by this enemy to have more defenses to deal with the withering focus fire on them from the tanked target (most of all if you saw a increase in other areas as well like the target using something like the focus fire boff ability amping thier damage), though if you also had it that when untanked the enemy's shields are strong enough to withstand the focus fire of the group making it take longer to take the enemy out with a fully dps focused group. As such it would actually make tanking more desired an rewarding, though you could do it with a more dps focused an higher output as a secondary choice, though this is a very simple an standard style of tanking/healing encounterat the basis-line.
What about tying in rewards like marks to performance. You lose marks if you blow up as you ship needs to be rescued. You gain bonus marks if you tank. Give people a reason to tank.
Since tanking in STO “works” mechanic wise to I’d say 90% (You just have problem to tank away stuff from peeps doing 3 times as much dmg and certain elements can’t be tanked as torpedo spreads, core breaches) and we do have a lot of maps where it is supported although not required stage wise I kind of wonder:
Do peeps really want to have maps where you require a tank in order to even succeed?
Any idea what this would mean for RTFOs or public matches in general?
What would happen if some sloppygimpoo with creepy skills and gear would line up for the "tanking" slot in a queue list?
Potential of trolling?
General AFK or leaver mentality?
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
They would require a mechanic for ensuring each team had all required roles filled.
Depends on what you mean by "creepy" skills and gear. If you mean bad, I would presume they'd lose unless they had another to take his place. I suppose it would also be good to have unlock conditions to stop such from happening.
Having content where player action was actually necessary would be great to reduce the general AFK mentality created by the constant flow of autowin.
That argument however means STO has to be completely static and can never vary the gameplay too much from the "everyone can do everything all the time" formula.
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While I can easily agree with all you said, sadly I don’t see any of it happening anytime soon or rather ever.
Most content where interaction or even effort is required (so no auto wins or meaningless optionals) as in “Elite” PvE maps get vastly avoided due to effort/reward/risk ratio issues.
The content where the ratio is fitting enough for the community to be consumed in reasonable amounts (lol) we find auto completion scenarios in “Normal” or roflstomping by your team-mates in “Advanced”.
As for “filtering” specialized roles into PvE (random) public matches, yea that’s how it could be done best, but I’m even less optimistic there as the the current population interested in PvE is so small that it does not even seem to justify a “ground” filter for randoms.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
Considering that only 5 rather subordinate captain powers differentiate the whole class system while countless gear, trait, ship, specialization not to mention boff ability choices dominate what is happening I’d even go so far as to say that this freedom in activity (independent of any class) is the core ideal this entire game is based on.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
And from what I've heard, many people prefer to reroll if they get queues in their endos, too. I've even rerolled them myself because the queues, even the randoms, are dead again (and the reroll tokens don't have any other value so meh).
The game needs more rewards uniqueness very badly.
Na on that I can't agree completely (but for the most part). Elite at least is consumed by a small % of the playerbase via private groups. I also found that on teams where everybody has around 150k+ DPS a lot of space maps run smooth enough to be worth doing. In such teams you reached a point again where, how did u put it, "derp around for 10-15 minutes with nothing but optionals and then win automatically". The rewards are ok under such circumstances and can be sold one way or the other for char progression. Salvage is a solid part of my in game income.
But true of course. Thats too small of a % of the playerbase to consider.
Thing is tanking here is often a strategy to get through compftably and most just look at normal and advanced when they place their judgment on the topic.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.