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Low DPS on Buran Class?

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  • feliseanfelisean Member Posts: 688 Arc User
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    felisean wrote: »
    [...]
    every t5+ ship is viable for elite content, you just need a decent-good build for it ;)

    Which just means lots of Epic gear. And no, skill isn't a factor once the game is understood. It's just pressing buttons, after all. And some people even automate that away.

    beside the build (using synergies ftw) its the piloting. and thats pressing the buttons, but not only pressing the buttons, pressing them at the correct time in the correct order and get your ship into the correct position. and at all those things people tend to strugle.
  • reyan01reyan01 Member Posts: 14,377 Arc User
    felisean wrote: »
    basically the main difference to other cruisers is the possibility to use faw3 on other ships but only faw 2 on that one. but at the end thats just a 5% dmg difference when faw is running.

    every t5+ ship is viable for elite content, you just need a decent-good build for it ;)

    Yeah.. well, you can do Elites in a shuttle. :lol:

    Seriously though, this is pretty true.. the only thing I advise on the Buran is to slot something to help with accuracy. The biggest issue for me wasn't the damage difference from FAW II to FAW III, it was the accuracy penalty that comes with FAW II. If I ran this ship, I would probably just slot something like Hostile Acquisition or something cheap to try and make up for the accuracy penalty.

    After that, yeah.. you should be fine in this ship. There is no doubt that a skilled captain could build one to run Elite Content, just takes a little time and practice.

    That's just it - how many players would be taking it into Elite?

    I don't really touch Elite content, and this ship is absolutely fine for Advanced level content.


  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,062 Arc User
    reyan01 wrote: »
    That's just it - how many players would be taking it into Elite?

    Very few.

    The majority of the player base doesn't do Elite Queues anyway, and those who do usually favor more powerful ships.

    The intended target audience for this ship clearly isn't the DPS crowd.. and that's fine.
    animated.gif
    Discovery is good, it's you that sucks.
  • reyan01reyan01 Member Posts: 14,377 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    reyan01 wrote: »
    That's just it - how many players would be taking it into Elite?

    Very few.

    The majority of the player base doesn't do Elite Queues anyway, and those who do usually favor more powerful ships.

    The intended target audience for this ship clearly isn't the DPS crowd.. and that's fine.

    Well, possibly not technically true? I mean, I have at least one friend who does watch their DPS and who purchased the Buran because they enjoy the challenge of making an effective ship out of one that doesn't necessarily lend itself to being optimal for DPS.

    But as you say, I'm definitely not someone who puts much focus on DPS (though I DO like to be effective); nonetheless, am very much enjoying this ship and whilst she doesn't do the sort of damage my Fleet Recon Destroyer can do, I love the design enough that I can overlook such things.

    As I said, for the first time ever we have a ship that actually made me question whether I like the design more than the Rhode Island. I don't, but it's so v e r y close!


  • zerokillcf2011zerokillcf2011 Member Posts: 545 Arc User
    I'm so confused. It's a command CRUISER. They aren't SUPPOSED to be the heavy hitters, either in canon, or in this game. Yes there are builds that work on some cruisers that ALLOW them to do crazy DPS, but you can get their easier in an Escort OR a Sci/space magic build.

    on solo play, it doesn't matter what class you are or what type of ship you fly, or what skills you have or don't have, or what weapons mark you consoles are. Short of switching game mode difficulty, on the normal mode you can play every single end game story mission in a T1 ship with Mk XII and rep gear, let alone bought gear at higher levels. In PVE play the only thing higher DPS does is make missions run quicker. Even BEFORE they lowered the end game leveling enemies it was possible.

    Too many people complain that if a ship can't destroy everything on its alpha strike, that it sucks. This ship is pretty good looking, and if you remember back to the STANDARD cruiser boff layout for T5 (1 Lt tact, and 1 Ens tact generally) we all did just fine. You can theoretically have plenty of tact room to breath, esp if you still fly AUX2BAT (since it is a CRUISER). My go to ship for YEARS before T6 was the Gal-X. 3 tac consoles, 1 ens tac and 1 lt tac. And I never had a problem.

    The Buran is a decent cruiser build option. Good engineering layout (not the best, but FAR from the worst) and the tactical loadout is also not the best, but far from the worst. Not EVERY SINGLE new ship released is targeted at the actually TINY portion of game players that only care about DPS. I bought the bundle the first day.
  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 3,403 Arc User
    reyan01 wrote: »
    felisean wrote: »
    basically the main difference to other cruisers is the possibility to use faw3 on other ships but only faw 2 on that one. but at the end thats just a 5% dmg difference when faw is running.

    every t5+ ship is viable for elite content, you just need a decent-good build for it ;)

    Yeah.. well, you can do Elites in a shuttle. :lol:

    Seriously though, this is pretty true.. the only thing I advise on the Buran is to slot something to help with accuracy. The biggest issue for me wasn't the damage difference from FAW II to FAW III, it was the accuracy penalty that comes with FAW II. If I ran this ship, I would probably just slot something like Hostile Acquisition or something cheap to try and make up for the accuracy penalty.

    After that, yeah.. you should be fine in this ship. There is no doubt that a skilled captain could build one to run Elite Content, just takes a little time and practice.

    That's just it - how many players would be taking it into Elite?

    I don't really touch Elite content, and this ship is absolutely fine for Advanced level content.
    As a high Yield torpedo boat it should be fine for Elite as well. Not as good as the other options but good enough to work.
  • lianthelialianthelia Member Posts: 7,476 Arc User
    Only 3 tac console slots, no Lt. Commander tac boff station, 4/4 gun ports. I can imagine. :/

    Didn't they ask about command powers elsewhere not so long ago? Perhaps they rebalance and make them more useful in the future.

    Too bad the Buran can't slot the Terran Empire Frigates pets from the Styx or the ship would have made a rather good PvE supporter. Depending on the option to stack the ships trait between multiple players at least that one looks interesting.


    A lot of the powers need balance...Intel and Command really suffer as they each only have a couple really good abilities. If you're talking about the inspiration abilities, well part of the problem is they stack so slow, you only get 3% per boff ability you use...so you need to use 34 abilities before you can activate one of them.
    #WithoutRespectWeReject
  • lordsteve1lordsteve1 Member Posts: 3,492 Arc User
    Been flying it a lot this week. It's more that adequate for any story mission i've tried and any advanced level TFO too if you know what you're doing.
    It might not be an Arbiter or a JH Vanguard Warship, but it's perfectly adequate for 90% of the game's content.

    If you can normally pull 100K+ DPS with your usual choice of ship you should have no issues using this either, since you should be good enough at piloting and skill activation for that you be where the majority of your output comes from.
    Sure the ship will make you work hard for your damage but it's easily capable of doing enough for most content. And a challenge is what we all want isn't it?

    Not everything needs 5 forward guns, 5 tac consoles and a LT Cmdr tac boff seat to be a decent combat ship.
    SulMatuul.png
  • reyan01reyan01 Member Posts: 14,377 Arc User
    lordsteve1 wrote: »
    Been flying it a lot this week. It's more that adequate for any story mission i've tried and any advanced level TFO too if you know what you're doing.
    It might not be an Arbiter or a JH Vanguard Warship, but it's perfectly adequate for 90% of the game's content.

    If you can normally pull 100K+ DPS with your usual choice of ship you should have no issues using this either, since you should be good enough at piloting and skill activation for that you be where the majority of your output comes from.
    Sure the ship will make you work hard for your damage but it's easily capable of doing enough for most content. And a challenge is what we all want isn't it?

    Not everything needs 5 forward guns, 5 tac consoles and a LT Cmdr tac boff seat to be a decent combat ship.

    As silly as this may sound, design counts for a great deal too in my opinion. I mean, my Fleet Recon Destroyer definitely hits harder than the Buran, but the Buran's gorgeous design means that there is zero chance of me swapping ships on the char I use her on any time soon.

    I may even have to get mine 3D printed.


  • redvengeredvenge Member Posts: 1,425 Arc User
    lordsteve1 wrote: »
    Been flying it a lot this week. It's more that adequate for any story mission i've tried and any advanced level TFO too if you know what you're doing.
    It might not be an Arbiter or a JH Vanguard Warship, but it's perfectly adequate for 90% of the game's content.
    Your shuttle is perfectly adequate for a large portion of the game's content.
    lordsteve1 wrote: »
    Not everything needs 5 forward guns, 5 tac consoles and a LT Cmdr tac boff seat to be a decent combat ship.
    The majority of the game's content is "blow up the thing". Usually, "blow up the many, many things that swarm you". Most players do not use a DPS parser. They go by "feels", which is very subjective. If the ship does not "feel" good, people don't fly it.

    The game is also very, very simple. This is why science is not as popular. Why put all that effort into some mega-well build if I can get very similar performance from a B:FAW with a fraction of the effort? Why bother trying to make some weird, obscure science power into a hard-hitting effect if it has a cooldown 3x longer than B:FAW?

    "DPS" is not the measurement. "Feels" is the measurement. Which is what the OP is saying.
  • lexusk19lexusk19 Member Posts: 1,383 Arc User
    redvenge wrote: »
    lordsteve1 wrote: »
    Been flying it a lot this week. It's more that adequate for any story mission i've tried and any advanced level TFO too if you know what you're doing.
    It might not be an Arbiter or a JH Vanguard Warship, but it's perfectly adequate for 90% of the game's content.
    Your shuttle is perfectly adequate for a large portion of the game's content.
    lordsteve1 wrote: »
    Not everything needs 5 forward guns, 5 tac consoles and a LT Cmdr tac boff seat to be a decent combat ship.
    The majority of the game's content is "blow up the thing". Usually, "blow up the many, many things that swarm you". Most players do not use a DPS parser. They go by "feels", which is very subjective. If the ship does not "feel" good, people don't fly it.

    The game is also very, very simple. This is why science is not as popular. Why put all that effort into some mega-well build if I can get very similar performance from a B:FAW with a fraction of the effort? Why bother trying to make some weird, obscure science power into a hard-hitting effect if it has a cooldown 3x longer than B:FAW?

    "DPS" is not the measurement. "Feels" is the measurement. Which is what the OP is saying.

    Pretty much yes. Im well aware that the mega DPS peeps can crank some numbers out of the ship. But im casual compared to them. Im happy around the 30 to 50K mark.
    gVOTFcj.jpg
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,062 Arc User
    lexusk19 wrote: »
    redvenge wrote: »
    lordsteve1 wrote: »
    Been flying it a lot this week. It's more that adequate for any story mission i've tried and any advanced level TFO too if you know what you're doing.
    It might not be an Arbiter or a JH Vanguard Warship, but it's perfectly adequate for 90% of the game's content.
    Your shuttle is perfectly adequate for a large portion of the game's content.
    lordsteve1 wrote: »
    Not everything needs 5 forward guns, 5 tac consoles and a LT Cmdr tac boff seat to be a decent combat ship.
    The majority of the game's content is "blow up the thing". Usually, "blow up the many, many things that swarm you". Most players do not use a DPS parser. They go by "feels", which is very subjective. If the ship does not "feel" good, people don't fly it.

    The game is also very, very simple. This is why science is not as popular. Why put all that effort into some mega-well build if I can get very similar performance from a B:FAW with a fraction of the effort? Why bother trying to make some weird, obscure science power into a hard-hitting effect if it has a cooldown 3x longer than B:FAW?

    "DPS" is not the measurement. "Feels" is the measurement. Which is what the OP is saying.

    Pretty much yes. Im well aware that the mega DPS peeps can crank some numbers out of the ship. But im casual compared to them. Im happy around the 30 to 50K mark.

    30-50k is a very respectable mark.
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    Discovery is good, it's you that sucks.
  • reyan01reyan01 Member Posts: 14,377 Arc User
    lexusk19 wrote: »
    redvenge wrote: »
    lordsteve1 wrote: »
    Been flying it a lot this week. It's more that adequate for any story mission i've tried and any advanced level TFO too if you know what you're doing.
    It might not be an Arbiter or a JH Vanguard Warship, but it's perfectly adequate for 90% of the game's content.
    Your shuttle is perfectly adequate for a large portion of the game's content.
    lordsteve1 wrote: »
    Not everything needs 5 forward guns, 5 tac consoles and a LT Cmdr tac boff seat to be a decent combat ship.
    The majority of the game's content is "blow up the thing". Usually, "blow up the many, many things that swarm you". Most players do not use a DPS parser. They go by "feels", which is very subjective. If the ship does not "feel" good, people don't fly it.

    The game is also very, very simple. This is why science is not as popular. Why put all that effort into some mega-well build if I can get very similar performance from a B:FAW with a fraction of the effort? Why bother trying to make some weird, obscure science power into a hard-hitting effect if it has a cooldown 3x longer than B:FAW?

    "DPS" is not the measurement. "Feels" is the measurement. Which is what the OP is saying.

    Pretty much yes. Im well aware that the mega DPS peeps can crank some numbers out of the ship. But im casual compared to them. Im happy around the 30 to 50K mark.

    30-50k is a very respectable mark.

    I'd love to be able to get that sort of DPS out of mine. An off chance PuG parse gave me 15k the day after the ship released. I have made one or two changes but I sincerely doubt I've improved on that figure.


  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 53,032 Community Moderator
    I'm in a bit of the same boat. I'm content with getting between 10-15k because that's comfortable for most STFs. Think the most I've ever parsed when someone parsed was in the low 20k range, and that was with a Temporal Connie, which has a similar build that I put on my Walker that I had been flying before that. Only real change is the temporal mechanic and lack of my preferred cruiser aura Strategic Maneuvering.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
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    The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,076 Arc User
    edited May 2019
    azrael605 wrote: »
    Despite what you think skill is needed

    Of course it is. :)

    If it was not we would not have a league table with thousands of players holding different places but everybody with the same build holding the same place instead. Granted, the thought is funny but far away from the truth. "TRIBBLE you Spawny! Once I have my last turret upgraded I'm gonna kick you from place 9." Yea, that's how it works... not. :D
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    felisean wrote: »
    teamwork to reach a goal is awesome and highly appreciated
    Bring it on
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    wishful thinking is not really a reliable source
  • reyan01reyan01 Member Posts: 14,377 Arc User
    edited May 2019
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    "Real skill" would be to be able to do impressive stuff with unimpressive gears and builds. Such as a Buran build... a ship that simply doesn't allow for certain brokenpopular combinations of powers due to her boff layout.

    Whilst I doubt it is the case, It'd be kinda nice to think that this might have been one one of the reasons the Buran was given the seating it received. To push players into trying something different rather than just copy-pasting the meta build (or a slight variation thereof) onto yet another ship. To try something else and make that work.

    Sadly, if that were the case it arguably backfired since, from comments I've seen, quite a few playes decided that the fact that the ship doesn't lend itself to brokenpopular combinations of powers means that it should be ignored.


  • coldnapalmcoldnapalm Member Posts: 9,245 Arc User
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    azrael605 wrote: »
    [...]
    If that was actually true then there would never be any threads of people asking how to do things/defeat x enemy/ pass x mission etc. Despite what you think skill is needed, especially when you go off meta.

    I don't believe skill isn't needed, I believe it is easy to aquire and once you have done that, the gear rules STO. And that can hardly be argued by any people who are not deluding themselves.

    Right...so EVERYONE else is wrong and you are right. While there are rare cases where the one lone voice turns out to be right, generally speaking when everyone tells you that you are wrong...it turns out that you are wrong.

    And if you were right about the skill being easy to aquire, there should not be the slew of x is too hard posts that shows up. Nor should there be the slew of sub 5k ships I see in ISA. Evidence points to you being utterly WRONG in that the skill needed to get to a point where it is just the gear that matters is easy to reach. So considering that we have proof that your first assertion is just plain false, we can assume ANYTHING you are basing on after that is...well just plain not true.
  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,076 Arc User
    edited May 2019
    reyan01 wrote: »
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    "Real skill" would be to be able to do impressive stuff with unimpressive gears and builds. Such as a Buran build... a ship that simply doesn't allow for certain brokenpopular combinations of powers due to her boff layout.

    Whilst I doubt it is the case, It'd be kinda nice to think that this might have been one one of the reasons the Buran was given the seating it received. To push players into trying something different rather than just copy-pasting the meta build (or a slight variation thereof) onto yet another ship. To try something else and make that work.

    Sadly, if that were the case it arguably backfired since, from comments I've seen, quite a few playes decided that the fact that the ship doesn't lend itself to brokenpopular combinations of powers means that it should be ignored.

    See the whole thing as in ships, gear, traits as „tools“ a workman has at his disposal for the task at hand. The more suited they are (or the more “meta” they are if this is about high DPS in ISA) the better means the player has to interact with the stage the way he wants. But in the end it will always be the player who implements it.

    mbwhiscool who did the 980k for example is a very young (by age and by presence in this game) player who is extremely talented and has seemly unlimited motivation to push the boundaries of those magical numbers. He started a few months back by getting inspired by one of my builds Feli let me post on the league homepage. He took it as blueprint, improved on it over time in relation with what has been released since then and started to practice in a way I have rarely seen in game. Not only he did that but also his team did as such numbers cannot be generated by a single player alone. After countless tries he got where he is now.

    Could I do that? No, not at the moment. Why? Do I miss some of his gear? Hehe no, I have it all and twelve times as much. I cannot do so simply because I did not play hundreds of ISA the past few months and would need to do so as well in order to gain enough experiences to get it done. And that is ok by me and no reason at all to cry through forums about a broken game.

    The Buran is a ship which is not layed out to do 980k but that does not mean that it is not better at anything else besides dealing DPS (in ISA).

    It is up to each player to decide what to in game and what tools feel right for the respective task he or she chooses. If that’s the Buran, then it is a good ship perhaps the best even. :)
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    felisean wrote: »
    teamwork to reach a goal is awesome and highly appreciated
    Bring it on
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    wishful thinking is not really a reliable source
  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,076 Arc User
    edited May 2019
    coldnapalm wrote: »

    Right...so EVERYONE else is wrong and you are right. While there are rare cases where the one lone voice turns out to be right, generally speaking when everyone tells you that you are wrong...it turns out that you are wrong.

    And if you were right about the skill being easy to aquire, there should not be the slew of x is too hard posts that shows up. Nor should there be the slew of sub 5k ships I see in ISA. Evidence points to you being utterly WRONG in that the skill needed to get to a point where it is just the gear that matters is easy to reach. So considering that we have proof that your first assertion is just plain false, we can assume ANYTHING you are basing on after that is...well just plain not true.

    Good point and well explained. And yea, he is utterly wrong. The moment he brought up the record from mb it was so obvious that it explodes right in the face. You can see that as you know the game well. I can see that after participating often in runs to produce such figures. Sadly the average forum user might not and start to believe that nonsense.

    Getting gear is just the homework, pushing the boundaries of what is possible with it in game (whatever that might be) the exam.
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    felisean wrote: »
    teamwork to reach a goal is awesome and highly appreciated
    Bring it on
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    wishful thinking is not really a reliable source
  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,076 Arc User
    edited May 2019
    sophlogimo wrote: »

    You know, a awhile back I challenged all those "it's skill!" claimers, to do an actual skill comparison based on the same gear and gear level, in a solo mission, with the same skill point setting and specializations, to show how skill was so important. The time required would have been only a few minutes, at most half an hour.

    The universal reply from all those who always claimed skill was oh so relevant: "But she should somehow allow for gear to matter..." :smiley: Because without that, the differences between competent and super-powerful would melt down to unimpressive numbers, and of course they know that.

    And you were among them. So don't try to bovine-excrement the newbies with "skill talk".

    As discussions between the two of us have a habit of not going anywhere anyway I spare us the most and just pick this point out because it lets me simply repeat what your fleet leader whom you also invited to pursue such an activity replied to you back then.

    “It is against human nature.”

    The same as it is against your nature to just do your homework and challenge MB’s record. ;)

    A player who was not even around the last time you complained STO not being an arcade game which would be better in sync with your real life obligations.
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    felisean wrote: »
    teamwork to reach a goal is awesome and highly appreciated
    Bring it on
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    wishful thinking is not really a reliable source
  • coldnapalmcoldnapalm Member Posts: 9,245 Arc User
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    azrael605 wrote: »
    [...]
    If that was actually true then there would never be any threads of people asking how to do things/defeat x enemy/ pass x mission etc. Despite what you think skill is needed, especially when you go off meta.

    I don't believe skill isn't needed, I believe it is easy to aquire and once you have done that, the gear rules STO. And that can hardly be argued by any people who are not deluding themselves.

    Right...so EVERYONE else is wrong and you are right. [...]

    Well, EVERYONE else refused to prove their point, I didn't.

    No...EVERYONE else refused to help YOU prove your point by having to waste a significant amount of their time on something they already know. And my point does not even have to do with your silly little experiment. If you want a point of data for that, there was a time when what Peter flew and what I flew was pretty close. The only difference was the weapon type used and I think like 2 of the weapon mods. And yet, he would rather consistently pull 25% more damage than me. You are gonna tell me that the weapon proc and 2 mods means 25% damage? Really? especially when the mod difference was between damage and crtD. Which by pure gear math should be less than 1% difference with maybe another 2-3% for the proc. Or maybe it's because I actually suck at this game and peter does not. Maybe that skill cap where the gear only matters is not as easy to reach as you think. Because that skill cap does exist...nobody is saying it does not. The rest of us saying that cap is not something anyone can just get to easily...or even at all. And remember, I can do all advanced content in COMMON mark XII gear and just vendor boffs abilities and no doffs. Something that is beyond most players in this game. Maybe if this game had more hardcore gamers, your assertion might be true. Hard core games like the ones in BDO could probably get to the skill level where it is a matter of gear in this game pretty easily. But for casual AF players like me and the vast majority of this playerbase...yeah...no.
  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,076 Arc User
    edited May 2019
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    Or maybe it's because I actually suck at this game and peter does not.

    You are always very modest. Sea is that too, which I so admire about him. Even at 250k which he got his very own he never builds an ego which then stands in his way. He fits in with everybody and still speaks his mind if the situation calls for it. You are byond doubt very good at STO even if you only put a fracture of your own advice you have given in this forums the past years into practise. If you are ever interested to run PvE with regular teams feel free to join our comunity chat, please. DPS is but a optional side quest for some of us. Most hardly care (and I only care for like 1% of my gaming time) as we get most fun out playing with folks who just like to play and do so without an ego. You would fit right in no matter how casual (you think) you are. I just throw you an invite. Even if your time does not permit to play often it would not matter at all. :)
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    felisean wrote: »
    teamwork to reach a goal is awesome and highly appreciated
    Bring it on
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    wishful thinking is not really a reliable source
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,062 Arc User
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    azrael605 wrote: »
    [...]
    If that was actually true then there would never be any threads of people asking how to do things/defeat x enemy/ pass x mission etc. Despite what you think skill is needed, especially when you go off meta.

    I don't believe skill isn't needed, I believe it is easy to aquire and once you have done that, the gear rules STO. And that can hardly be argued by any people who are not deluding themselves.

    Right...so EVERYONE else is wrong and you are right. [...]

    Well, EVERYONE else refused to prove their point, I didn't.

    A standard has already been established by the community as a whole for measuring performance.

    If you wish to prove your point, do so using the standards already established, your feeble attempt to make your own standard was rightfully ignored.

    Here is a post on the latest record run in ISA. Since no skill is involved according to you, go ahead and copy paste the build and post your parse showing you have matched this output. It should be easy.. no skill is needed right?

    Go ahead.. we'll wait...
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    Discovery is good, it's you that sucks.
This discussion has been closed.